How much did you spend / would you spend on an e-ring?

[crown1]

Would it be impolite to ask what you consider decent? Referring to size, clarity, color, cut? Additionally, what price point dollar wise would you find reasonable? I know you are adverse to "tens of thousands". I am not trying to find your income figure just what general dollar figure would you be comfortable with. There are posters here who might find you a "deal". It would not be me but many here are up for the challenge. I hope you let us know what you do select and how your lady likes it.


woops: I see someone else already proposed this

 

[Tekate]

Perhaps are you Mr. Tekate??? Back many years ago when our sons were very young we bought a Ford Explorer (I had to have it!) and my husband ordered the car through the IBM Credit Union power buy and he bought EVERY upgrade a Explorer Eddie Bauer model had except the Eddie Bauer name..it was an XLT.. and all my friends commented on my nice XLT.. so there are two ways of thinking.. yours and mine.. I wanted an EDDIE BAUER! call me shallow (I don't really think I am shallow but I do like certain higher end items).. so why buy a Rolex? and not a Tag Heurer? well because it's a ROLEX... Tag Heurer is pretty danged nice also btw... it's about what it means to YOU.. the rhetorical you that is.. one is buying an image one feels that they are or want to be, if someone makes money on my desire to have to have a Louis Vitton purse then so be it.. it's me.. if you can't afford a Louis then you should not go into debt for one.. if you can pay off a .50 carat diamond in a year but you buy a 2 carat and it's killing you this may have been a bad decision.. we all have reasons why we do things..

If you and your future wife are in agreement or if she reallly wants a bigger, more expensive stone then I would buy from a vendor who takes full value of what was paid for an upgrade...

There was a recent article about how bad diamonds are as an investment, to HIM.. to me a diamond means much more..

I wish you much love, peace and happiness in your future life as a married couple.. being logical is a great thing.. wish I were more so.. (that's why I married a logical guy ((twice))

I also work in finance, so I am relatively well versed in money management/investing. This probably is the reason this decision is awkward for me, because it goes against most of my basic knowledge about spending money wisely (as this expense is a very unwise one from a strictly rational perspective). I feel similarly about many things that cost a lot of money but provide limited value (i.e. expensive cars, expensive watches, expensive clothes etc.). I approach all of those things practically: if you need a watch, why buy a Rolex? I can tell time with a $100 watch just as good as with the Rolex. If you need a suit, why spend $2,000 on a Prada when you can get a decent suit for $300-$500 and chances are no one will really be able to tell. To be quite honest with you guys, a lot of people make horrible financial decisions which are often fostered through a culture of excess consumerism - this goes well beyond diamonds, but they are a very good example. In the end though, smart business people know all of this and make a killing selling this stuff (trust me) to the people who actually shouldn't be buying in the first place! It's funny how that works, but it happens all the time. Anyways, just food for thought!

 

[Circe]

We don't really know if it matters to her--has she expressly said she wants an expensive e-ring? OP isn't saying he's not going to get her anything, he's just saying he's not going to pay a huge amount of money. Outside of PS, many women don't care about $$ rings/upgrades, etc.

And reading between the lines, I'm guessing the OP makes a sufficiently decent salary - where 4% of his income is equivalent to a year's worth of college, or what-have-you (though I suppose that could be a projection of what the money spent on the ering would become in twenty-ish years) - that what he's thinking will still be plenty lovely.

Like, conservatively, since he said "tenS" of thousands ... Let's say it's "only" 10k. I could find one hell of a ring for that much. I mean, dudes, it's what I paid for my most recent pretty, which, if'n I do say so myself, is pretty sweet.

BTW, OP, your question stuck in my head. Why DO we want to pay astronomical sums for tiny objects?

I know for a lot of people it's status, or a metric of love, or a dowry, or gods only know what else. And all of that is valid, but I'll leave that to those who put it first, priority-wise, to describe ... for me, when I said it was like art (thanks for the shout out, Gypsy), I wasn't kidding. I'm a silversmith, I've sat at a lapidary's wheel once or twice, and I know how much ridiculously skilled craft a piece like the ones I admire will require. I like vintage, because standards were higher then, and it's a minute window into the past (when, among other things, human labor was the cheap part, and standards of craftsmanship were commensurately stratospheric if one wanted to command top dollar ... as a perfectionist in my own currently not-so-fiscally-well-rewarded field, I identify with that sort of thing). And I like rarity value, even if it's the kind that will only make sense to me and an equally rare handful of other obsessives ... rare cuts, rare qualities like strong fluorescence, etc.

How many people have dreamed of dragons, or unicorns, or singular masterpieces from the likes of Da Vinci to Merlin? One-of-a-kind wonders, unique things? Fine jewelry makes that possible on a micro level that's accessible to normal people in a way that almost nothing else does (my own definition includes everything from the Hope Diamond to the fine "travel" pieces produced back in the day, surprisingly affordable now). It's a nice set of concepts to apply to the beginning of a life-long commitment.

 

[Daisyoz]

If you need to justify it to yourself, amortize the money over (hopefully ) 50 years of wear -- seems a good purchase to me!

Also, consider this practice for your future marriage. You will want many things in your life that she thinks are silly -- and I don't mean financial purchases, I mean time away from family or other "things". You may want to hang flags all over the house like Circe's husband or have one of those ridiculous "man caves". So start banking some credit now in the relationship bank by buying her something that she loves despite your reservations. Later, it will pay relationship dividends.

I agree totally with Dreamer D!! Think of it as an investment, in your lifetime happiness! I can assure you, if you have the right woman (and I am sure you do), you will get the greatest return of your life.

My DH (bless his heart) is also very practical and frugal. A very successful professional, he still drives the first car he bought in uni. He would wear his clothes until they wear out completely or have holes in them. His towels are ten years old but he refuses to change them until they tear apart. He likes to save up money for investments or term deposits. We are on the same page regarding money, I am also frugal and practical. We work hard, we save on things we dont really need, we dont normally even give each other gifts as we buy things when we need them. I dont own any expensive jewlery prior to my ring, partly because it s impractical in my job anyway. Yet he bought me a very nice ring worth 10% of his annual salary with his own saving just because he knew deep down I would love a nice engagement ring. I still remeber he said 'I know it is ok to give you anything but I would like to do something nice for you". He even splurged on the premium of a true H n A diamond because he knew I was fascinated with them. Do I appreciate it? You bet I do. Everytime I look at my rings ( and I look at them all the times ) I feel a surge of affection towards the man, who would never buy anything that expensive for himself but would give me the ring of my dream in a second. That is money very well spent, in my opinion. Needless to say, he felt the same.

 

[Dancing Fire]

We don't really know if it matters to her--has she expressly said she wants an expensive e-ring? OP isn't saying he's not going to get her anything, he's just saying he's not going to pay a huge amount of money. Outside of PS, many women don't care about $$ rings/upgrades, etc.

A lot of women care, but are afraid to hurt their husband's feelings/ego.

 

[auktalent3]

Firstly, thank you all for your replies here. I've found all of the responses very useful and as I read I agreed with much of what was said (and disagreed with a few people, but I'll refrain from replying to those few as it wouldn't be polite or very Canadian of me!).

Let me be honest and admit that I have no interest in diamonds, nor do I appreciate/understand them (that must have been hard to figure out eh?). I am not saying that to offend the people on this board, or to pass judgement in any way. I am simply being honest. Unfortunately, my girlfriend has been fascinated with diamonds for as long as she could remember and expects to receive a diamond engagement ring as part of my proposal. Her views are very similar to mine - she is very practical and would be completely fine getting a conservative ring because she agrees/understands that this fascination is somewhat unfounded and manufactured by brilliant business minds (again, apologies, just my and her view). However, despite the fact that she understands this, she admitted that it's "stronger than her" (i.e. the desire to get a diamond engagement ring). I love her to death, so there is no doubt in my mind I will get her what she wants and ultimately make her happy (not because of a stupid ring, but because of the way I treat her and the future I will hopefully build with her). The ring will be included in this future though just to be clear, so no worries! I also really agree with those of you who have said that her happiness from receiving the ring will pay dividends (no finance pun intended ).

On that note, I will update you on my situation. I am in the process of shopping around my local "wholesalers" to see what can be priced out within my budget (a lot of these guys have been direct referrals that apparently wouldn't take me off the street). I recognize they aren't truly wholesalers, otherwise I wouldn't be in there with them. So I am wise to their tricks, but what choice do I have when participation in this market has been forced upon me! After meeting a few, my general view is that this must be the sketchiest market in the world (apart from illegal weapons sales lol). Again, no offence to anyone, just my experience thus far.

The main problem here is that there is a natural informational asymmetry, where the salesperson clearly knows exponentially more than I do and no matter how many forums I read I'll never replace 30 years of experience dealing with diamonds (and possibly some scamming ). As a relatively educated guy, I read a lot, spoke to a bunch of people and now realize that it's going to be very hard to get a good deal here. This is a VERY inefficient market. I think I could make a lot more money dealing diamonds, for the record!

Each meeting I've gone to, I'll run a quick comp set afterwards to see how their pricing compares to the Internet vendors and Rap. Surely enough, most of these guys are either asking for premium to rap for a solid stone, or discount to rap for what I would deem a "crappier" stone, or asking to put taxes in which I sort of view as a cash grab for them because I have a strong suspicion they're not reporting all their income. Then when I analyse this situation, I don't blame them really. They're sitting there with me, helping me, etc. Obviously they're getting a cut? 10%? Seems reasonable to me. God knows we charge fees for our work.

In sum, right now I am looking for the BEST deal I can find and deciding whether to go online or with one of these "wholesalers". Hands down, the Internet looks to be cheapest option but the drawback is not being able to inspect the stone. I need to get a great deal, otherwise I'll sit idle and not buy anything for as long as it takes. It's my personality - I refuse to be a sucker! They can make money off of the next guy. My overall budget is somewhat flexible - I'm more interested in getting a deal than staying at a specific price. I am comfortable spending a target of $10k, which includes the diamond and setting. This is in C$.

 

[braga123]

Buy preowned. Most sellers who sell preowned diamond rings take at least a 50 percent loss. So why pay full boat when you can pay 50 percent off retail?

 

[teobdl]

This will put you about $900 under budget.

1.14 H SI1 ($7177 wire)
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3033759.htm

Vatche U-113 ($1900 in platinum)
http://www.whiteflash.com/engagement-rings/solitaire/6-prong-solitaire-engagement-ring-by-vatche-1779.htm

 

[Niel]

on theres a LOT you can do with 10k that can make you "feel" like youre getting a lot.

one, do you need a round? or is she open to other shapes? other shapes are often cheaper per ctw as well as face up larger.

of it has to be round, have you looked at older cuts? they look nice in lower colors, so you can get a larger stone for your price as they are acceptable in an K, L range....

and of course, second hand is a really greay option, but youll want some help with that, as those waters can be muddy, and its nice to have some people who can help. and some PSers are very good at that

 

[heididdl]

This will put you about $900 under budget.

1.14 H SI1 ($7177 wire)
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3033759.htm

Vatche U-113 ($1900 in platinum)
http://www.whiteflash.com/engagement-rings/solitaire/6-prong-solitaire-engagement-ring-by-vatche-1779.htm

Clasic beautiful and quite appropriate love this selection for her

 

[heididdl]

on theres a LOT you can do with 10k that can make you "feel" like youre getting a lot.

one, do you need a round? or is she open to other shapes? other shapes are often cheaper per ctw as well as face up larger.

of it has to be round, have you looked at older cuts? they look nice in lower colors, so you can get a larger stone for your price as they are acceptable in an K, L range....

and of course, second hand is a really greay option, but youll want some help with that, as those waters can be muddy, and its nice to have some people who can help. and some PSers are very good at that

I think classic round solitaire fits this couple. To many options to confuse. INHO he needs to keep it ideal and classic

 

[marymm]

As a suggestion, perhaps you'd like to consider an ideal-cut 1.022ct G-VS1 WhiteFlash A Cut Above hearts and arrows diamond ($8649 USD for a PS member via bank wire), in the WhiteFlash Legato solitaire ($848.75 USD via bank wire) - comes in at $9498 USD, which I think is about $300 USD higher than your $10,000 Canadian budget... but it seems obvious to me this will be a forever ring and this is a gorgeous full-carat diamond and a graceful solitaire, both of which will stand the test of time. (I think also as a first time buyer at WhiteFlash, a $25.00 discount applies to purchases over $2,000.)

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2676040.htm#
http://www.whiteflash.com/engagemen...-sleek-line-solitaire-engagement-ring-728.htm

This is a deal in that you are paying significantly less than you would in a bricks-and-mortar store, and you are buying a diamond which is in the very top tier of ideal-cut hearts-and-arrows diamonds - you can see the Aset, the IdealScope, the enlarged pic, the diamond grading report - their customer service is topnotch, they stand behind their diamond with upgrade and buyback policies (even if you don't choose to take advantage of these benefits) - and really, if you are going to buy a diamond to please your GF, you may as well buy the very best quality available otherwise it is not money well-spent (a less-expensive, poorer cut diamond will not perform the same and will look smaller and less bright next to, say, a WhiteFlash ACA of similar carat weight/color/clarity).

 

[Niel]

on theres a LOT you can do with 10k that can make you "feel" like youre getting a lot.

one, do you need a round? or is she open to other shapes? other shapes are often cheaper per ctw as well as face up larger.

of it has to be round, have you looked at older cuts? they look nice in lower colors, so you can get a larger stone for your price as they are acceptable in an K, L range....

and of course, second hand is a really greay option, but youll want some help with that, as those waters can be muddy, and its nice to have some people who can help. and some PSers are very good at that

I think classic round solitaire fits this couple. To many options to confuse. INHO he needs to keep it ideal and classic

mm i dont know if i agree, he did say she was a bit of a diamond enthusiast, and all.



it says USD to CAD (per google) says hed have to pay about about 9k in the US, plus theres taxes...

 

[heididdl]

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2813942.htm


Okay Niel so lets play maybe cushion.........
http://www.whiteflash.com/engagement-rings/diamond-settings/petite-open-cathedral-diamond-engagement-ring-1539.htm

there are tons of settings to select

 

[auktalent3]

So I should have mentioned that she wants a round stone in a cushion-shaped halo. I think the colour limitation is H+, clarity is SI2+, cut obviously best I can get but I think XXX shouldn't be impossible, and carat is 1.2+ as a target. I have a "wholesale" offer for this, with a custom setting, which would run be in the mid 9's. My concern is that it's still pricey, for a 1.21 H SI2, it's more than the online vendors and certainly over rappaport for that stone.

Also I'm not factoring in taxes - one way or another, I'm only looking pre-tax.

 

[teobdl]

Ritani has nice cushion halos for round options:

http://www.ritani.com/engagement-rings/french-set-halo-diamond-band-engagement-ring-in-platinum/4973

http://www.ritani.com/engagement-rings/cushion-halo-diamond--v--band-engagement-ring-in-palladium/6345

http://www.ritani.com/engagement-rings/cushion-french-set-halo-diamond-engagement-ring-in-14kt-white-gold/8069

 

[braga123]

So I should have mentioned that she wants a round stone in a cushion-shaped halo. I think the colour limitation is H+, clarity is SI2+, cut obviously best I can get but I think XXX shouldn't be impossible, and carat is 1.2+ as a target. I have a "wholesale" offer for this, with a custom setting, which would run be in the mid 9's. My concern is that it's still pricey, for a 1.21 H SI2, it's more than the online vendors and certainly over rappaport for that stone.

Also I'm not factoring in taxes - one way or another, I'm only looking pre-tax.

again... have you considered preowned?

 

[packrat]

JD spent about what he grossed in like...a day, on my original ring. Poor ring was so sad the little chip fell out. We had about zero dollars back then. Three upgrades and 12 years later, we had a little more than zero dollars and I spent it all on a new ring. Stupidest financial move and I don't care. I adore my ring like nothing I've ever had before, and I've bent over backwards since day one to make that man happy and his life easier. I told him to look at it as cost per year, so every year I become a better bargain.

 

[auktalent3]

Pre-owned would definitely work but a lot of what I saw out there is pretty crappy.

 

[lovebug1031]

not sure if you're interested in ONLY MRB's, but this first one is an AVR (I'm partial) a touch under your 1.2, but great size and color and would leave you quite a bit for a setting

http://goodoldgold.com/diamond/9597/

check on the price of this one, it should be within range ($8k or < US)
http://goodoldgold.com/diamond/11038/

this is within range too!
http://goodoldgold.com/diamond/11729/

Good Old Gold has great service, if you're nervous about buying sight unseen they'll do comparison videos for you, take tons of pictures etc...they have excellent service and have a nice array of settings available!

JBEG has quite a few nice options within your price range and size!
http://www.jewelsbyericagrace.com/loose_antique_and_vintage_diamonds_-_1_to_150_carats_page_2

 

[slksapphire]

OP,

read john pollard's excellent example in this post:

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/best-online-diamond-vendors.197395/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/best-online-diamond-vendors.197395/[/URL]

it will give you a better idea on the "hidden" factors behind pricing (the information asymmetry). also, due to these factors, rap pricing is totally irrelevant. also, keep in mind there are many flavors of XXX, esp. when using GIA rather than AGS, that can strongly influence cut quality and hence, pricing.

 

[LLJsmom]

not sure if you're interested in ONLY MRB's, but this first one is an AVR (I'm partial) a touch under your 1.2, but great size and color and would leave you quite a bit for a setting

Good Old Gold has great service, if you're nervous about buying sight unseen they'll do comparison videos for you, take tons of pictures etc...they have excellent service and have a nice array of settings available!

This is great, being able to see the diamonds on video and having someone inspect them for eye-cleanliness!

OP, I applaud your grace under fire. Some of the things you said probably could and did offend some of the PS community, me included. You responded with much graciousness, regardless of your opinions.

And for the record, I think your intended is probably a very lovely, understanding and wonderful person who loves you and cares greatly about making YOU happy. (versus the other way around, which is the premise of the original post, if I am being too subtle) Cause I'm in finance too. And doing the calculation backwards, if $10K CAD is 4% of your gross annual income, you're making about $250K a year. I hope other PSers aren't offended. He gave me the numbers and he knew as a finance guy anyone could do the math. If my future husband grossed $250K a year, I would be perfectly comfortable with him spending at least $60K (about 25%) on my ring. Now don't you feel lucky you're not marrying me??! For that and many other reasons, I assure you.

And allow me to be more specific. If $10K is 4% of your after tax earnings, I would expect that the ring be 4-5 carats, which would put you in the $100K-$120K range, I think. (This is based on an assumption of a a 50% tax rate on earned income in Canada.) There, aren't you feeling very LOVED AND UNDERSTOOD by your fiance now??

It's all about perspective, right? Good luck diamond hunting. I know your fiance will be very happy with whatever you are going to buy her.

 

[VRBeauty]

http://www.jewelsbyericagrace.com/antique_vintage_and_reproduction_rings_page_4

There are a couple of really nice options on this page.

 

[auktalent3]

Thanks guys some of the diamonds look very good. I will definitely need to some research before going online because the blind aspect does not appeal to me but the budget does.

not sure if you're interested in ONLY MRB's, but this first one is an AVR (I'm partial) a touch under your 1.2, but great size and color and would leave you quite a bit for a setting

Good Old Gold has great service, if you're nervous about buying sight unseen they'll do comparison videos for you, take tons of pictures etc...they have excellent service and have a nice array of settings available!

This is great, being able to see the diamonds on video and having someone inspect them for eye-cleanliness!

OP, I applaud your grace under fire. Some of the things you said probably could and did offend some of the PS community, me included. You responded with much graciousness, regardless of your opinions.

And for the record, I think your intended is probably a very lovely, understanding and wonderful person who loves you and cares greatly about making YOU happy. (versus the other way around, which is the premise of the original post, if I am being too subtle) Cause I'm in finance too. And doing the calculation backwards, if $10K CAD is 4% of your gross annual income, you're making about $250K a year. I hope other PSers aren't offended. He gave me the numbers and he knew as a finance guy anyone could do the math. If my future husband grossed $250K a year, I would be perfectly comfortable with him spending at least $60K (about 25%) on my ring. Now don't you feel lucky you're not marrying me??! For that and many other reasons, I assure you.

And allow me to be more specific. If $10K is 4% of your after tax earnings, I would expect that the ring be 4-5 carats, which would put you in the $100K-$120K range, I think. (This is based on an assumption of a a 50% tax rate on earned income in Canada.) There, aren't you feeling very LOVED AND UNDERSTOOD by your fiance now??

It's all about perspective, right? Good luck diamond hunting. I know your fiance will be very happy with whatever you are going to buy her.

All I can say with certainty is that she will be very happy with whatever I get her. With regards to my income, I will let you speculate if you wish Your expectations are also pretty ridiculous, assuming they are honest. No one in their right mind would spend that on a ring who makes 250k. Generally the people who do make that kind of money know better

 

[bgray]

Thanks guys some of the diamonds look very good. I will definitely need to some research before going online because the blind aspect does not appeal to me but the budget does.

All I can say with certainty is that she will be very happy with whatever I get her. With regards to my income, I will let you speculate if you wish Your expectations are also pretty ridiculous, assuming they are honest. No one in their right mind would spend that on a ring who makes 250k. Generally the people who do make that kind of money know better

wow --you are a piece of work. I have never seen anyone toss around judgements quite so superciliously on this site. "Generally the people who do make that kind of money know better." Seriously????????? People spend all kinds of money on things that other people think are silly. I know hedge fund guys up to their gills in debt and teachers with tidy sums living modestly. In fact as we see a great many "finance" people made a lot of money the old fashioned way-by cheating. I think people in finance are, by and large, soulless, greedy, paper pushers. You came on here bragging and proselytizing all at the same time. Please desist. There are plenty of accomplished people on this forum and in "finance" in every range of income with different financial priorities. Why dont you eschew the trappings of bourgeoisie and use a blade of grass. Quit your finance job and go live off the land where you can feel morally superior to others. Quite frankly working in finance doesnt give you that right.

 

[Polished]

All I can say with certainty is that she will be very happy with whatever I get her. With regards to my income, I will let you speculate if you wish Your expectations are also pretty ridiculous, assuming they are honest. No one in their right mind would spend that on a ring who makes 250k. Generally the people who do make that kind of money know better

People who make less money than this might spend those sums on a diamond and they probably budget their finances accordingly. They are people who know and love diamonds. I think your approach sounds great for you and your fiance though. You will be able to get something gorgeous for your budget while spending more might start to result in diminishing returns in terms of enjoyment.

 

[Dancing Fire]

All I can say with certainty is that she will be very happy with whatever I get her. With regards to my income, I will let you speculate if you wish Your expectations are also pretty ridiculous, assuming they are honest. No one in their right mind would spend that on a ring who makes 250k. Generally the people who do make that kind of money know better

Most PSers don't know any better...

 

[LLJsmom]

All I can say with certainty is that she will be very happy with whatever I get her. With regards to my income, I will let you speculate if you wish Your expectations are also pretty ridiculous, assuming they are honest. No one in their right mind would spend that on a ring who makes 250k. Generally the people who do make that kind of money know better

Ooops!! Sorry!! That was my "left" mind. Dang it. Where did the "right" one go? Oh, I found it. Wait let me screw it on tightly before it falls off again. There... phew. On tight! Nope, the "right" mind is on. I still would want what I just said. I guess you did find one person in their "right" mind who does know better.

 

[braga123]

Generally, people know that you can't take it with you when you go...so you might as well spend it on what makes you happy. If staring at your bank account makes you happy, forgo this tradition and snap a picture of your bank account and present that to her instead. I'm sure she will appreciate the gesture, being in finance as you are....Don't let anyone sucker you into throwing away your
hard-earned cash on some silly tradition that only people in first-world countries appreciate. Instead of flaunting her e-ring to your friends and family, let her flaunt your investment account! Think of the joy you will feel when everyone commends you for your wisdom and the satisfaction you will feel for not falling victim to the darn advertising. Forgo the fancy wedding, too, because that too is a fabrication of these darn advertisers.

 

[Daisyoz]

All I can say with certainty is that she will be very happy with whatever I get her. With regards to my income, I will let you speculate if you wish Your expectations are also pretty ridiculous, assuming they are honest. No one in their right mind would spend that on a ring who makes 250k. Generally the people who do make that kind of money know better

This is very judgmental and uncalled for. I know at least two men with that sort of income who spent double and triple the amount you intend to on their fiancee's engagement rings. Though not in finance, they are both finance savvy and have accumulated lots of assets, starting out with nothing. Many Psers here am sure have that sort of income, some even replying you on this thread. Please be modest.