Fidelity

[gemgirl]

Date: 10/5/2009 5:02:41 PM
Author: Tacori E-ring

Date: 10/5/2009 3:25:10 PM
Author: TravelingGal
I *think* it is a dealbreaker. But I find in marriage, oftentimes you don''t know until you get there how you feel.

Amen sister! Most people would not do what they think they would in such a critical situation. Unless you are living it (or have lived it) there is no way to know what you would do.

Absolutely not. You don''t know what you would do until you experience it. The shock is as profound as being told that either you or your husband have cancer, and that''s not overdramatizing it. It''s that profound and it''s that irreversible (or so it seems in the moment you find out). Later, that can change.

 

[gemgirl]

Date: 10/5/2009 8:31:50 PM
Author: trillionaire

I''d hate to think of my FI going to a female co-worker to confide in her about our relationship. That actually makes my stomach turn. Opening up to another woman would hurt me so much more than sex.

not to you specifically, Elle, just responding to your thoughts and the thread in general...

Both sex and emotional cheating would hurt me equally... intimacy is intimacy. He''s my best friend, and we have only ever been with each other. To break the delicacy and vulnerability and sacredness of such a connection would be earth shattering to me. It is something that I love and cherish... something that can''t be recreated. I respect and uphold this intimacy for him, and I expect the same... physically and emotionally.

Sex and intimacy are not the same thing, but what is especially damaging about emotional affairs is that the feelings of intimacy between the two people can be even more intense than in a couple having a sexual affair. You wouldn''t think so, but it''s true. Even during emotional affairs, the guilty spouse has already "left his wife" in his mind and has no regard for her feelings and both people are just chomping at the bit and waiting for the big day when they finally sleep together. The anticipation intensifies their intimacy and they winding up sharing more of themselves with each other personally (but not sexually). trill is right. The cheating spouse has to break the connection at home for the affair to even exist.

 

[Bia]

Both types (physical and emotional) would be enough for me to walk away. I might forgive him but the trust would be gone. I know myself enough to know that I would obsess about what happened. I would drive myself crazy, worried and paranoid, and I''d drive him crazy in the process. What kind of relationship can that be? Certainly not a healthy one.

 

[Cehrabehra]

I used to be a total hard nose on fidelity - and who knows how I would actually react if I found out something like this... but IF my husband would cheat it would likely be with a prostitute or something (he could never have an emotional affair - it''s not in him) and I don''t know that I''d break up our family on it. I might consider the sexual reigns on our marriage looser and renegotiate for myself as well... but I really cannot say having not been there. It would also depend a lot on where *I* was at that time... hope I never find out!

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 10/5/2009 3:37:52 PM
Author: Sha

Date: 10/5/2009 3:25:10 PM

Author: TravelingGal

I *think* it is a dealbreaker. But I find in marriage, oftentimes you don''t know until you get there how you feel.

This is true. I remember last year something happened that made me wonder if my DH had been unfaithfu (He hadn''t- it was a misunderstanding on my part). It was such a shocking thought at the time...because of the level of trust I had in him. I just couldn''t imagine him cheating. Anyway, in the mix of emotions I had before I spoke to him - I remember feeling shock as well as hurt and mistrust, but also feeling that I didn''t want that to be the end of a great marriage. I wanted to continue being married to my DH. That last thought was also a strange one, because I had always assumed that any knowledge of cheating would be an ''automatic dealbreaker'' for me.


So I agree that sometimes you won''t know how you feel until you get there. I also agree with fiery that it depends on the circumstances surrounding the cheating as well.

wow you said it very well! Somewhere along the 18 years of our marriage I have gotten to a place where it doesn''t revolve around sex... now, funny thing is the actual sex has continued to get better and better as we age (must be skill lol) but my attachment to love and sex is not as territorial as it was years ago. for *me* that is - my husband is just as territorial as ever. I told him if he ever cheated I wouldn''t leave him but that I would consider it a freebie that I could have without guilt. He doesn''t like that idea - incentive lol If you asked me this the first year I would have been gone in a flash no matter how much it killed me to do so. I had PRIDE damnit! Now I have pride but it is so less stuck on certain ideals than it was.

 

[MonkeyPie]

Reading all the responses, I think I can pretty safely say what my reaction would be - hurt and despair over wasting my time, eventual grudging forgiveness, and then years of treating my husband like every time he leaves my sight, he''s with another woman. Not too hard for me to figure out, but then, I know me! I might forgive, but I would never forget, and eventually it would destroy the marriage just as badly.

 

[LaurenThePartier]

I think I''m in the evaluate-all-options-once-I have-to-come-to-that-proverbial bridge camp. My gut instinct is to say it''s a deal-breaker, but I''m not sure.

 

[Gailey]

Date: 10/6/2009 2:39:57 AM
Author: cindygenit

Date: 10/6/2009 2:29:59 AM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 10/6/2009 1:41:29 AM
Author: cindygenit
If my boyfriend cheated on me, I would dump him straight away. No need to hear his excuses or reasons.

If my life partner/DH/FI cheated on me, I would ask him why he did it. Sometimes, the partner being cheated on could be the major contributor to the reason why the other cheated. Anyhow, I love my FI very much. I would never cheat and he would never cheat on me.

that''s what they all say.

LOL DF!!!!! Its true....

why are you so cynical?

Maybe it stems from the time he entertained the North Korean Women''s Synchronised Swimming Team.

 

[Laila619]

I would be too pissed and resentful to forgive him. My loving feelings for him would be gone. When we took our marriage vows, the line we said to one another was, "I pledge to you my faithfulness." So for him to break his word would be a dealbreaker.

 

[TooPatient]

Date: 10/6/2009 10:41:18 AM
Author: Bia
Both types (physical and emotional) would be enough for me to walk away. I might forgive him but the trust would be gone. I know myself enough to know that I would obsess about what happened. I would drive myself crazy, worried and paranoid, and I''d drive him crazy in the process. What kind of relationship can that be? Certainly not a healthy one.

I agree with Bia. Even if I could bring myself to forgive him (which I don''t know if I could), I am pretty certain I would never trust him again. If it happened once then why not twice? Did his friend talk him into it? Lie for him? Will he be tempted again? Will he resist the temptation? Why was he late? Why didn''t he call? Why didn''t he answer? Was he really in a meeting?

I''ve never been there so I can''t say for sure. Hope I never am.

 

[gemgirl]

Uppy, your friend has to be feeling very confused, hurt and overwhelmed right now. The first thing I did was find information that could possibly help, and then I found people who could help. Some of these websites might help her. We used the Marriages Builders program for the month and a half before our Retrouvaille weekend. The Marriage Builders program is very popular all over our country. The "His Needs/Her Needs" workshop is offered by a lot of different church groups and organizations. You may suggest also that she speak to her local priest, minister or rabbi. They are well versed in handling these situations. The most important thing right now, is that she not feel like she''s all alone in her pain.

www.marriagebuilders.com

www.dnaofrelationships.com

www.weiner-davis.com

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Date: 10/6/2009 12:34:55 PM
Author: gemgirl
Uppy, your friend has to be feeling very confused, hurt and overwhelmed right now. The first thing I did was find information that could possibly help, and then I found people who could help. Some of these websites might help her. We used the Marriages Builders program for the month and a half before our Retrouvaille weekend. The Marriage Builders program is very popular all over our country. The ''His Needs/Her Needs'' workshop is offered by a lot of different church groups and organizations. You may suggest also that she speak to her local priest, minister or rabbi. They are well versed in handling these situations. The most important thing right now, is that she not feel like she''s all alone in her pain.

www.marriagebuilders.com

www.dnaofrelationships.com

www.weiner-davis.com

I just wanted to second this--marriagebuilders is a FANTASTIC site for people who are going through what your friend is going through. Heck, it''s good for marriages without issues! My friend''s husband had an emotional affair last year and Dr. Harley has been helping them rebuild their trust and marriage. The forums are full of very smart and supportive people as well.

 

[cindygenit]

Date: 10/6/2009 12:02:25 PM
Author: Gailey

Date: 10/6/2009 2:39:57 AM

Author: cindygenit

Date: 10/6/2009 2:29:59 AM

Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 10/6/2009 1:41:29 AM

Author: cindygenit

If my boyfriend cheated on me, I would dump him straight away. No need to hear his excuses or reasons.


If my life partner/DH/FI cheated on me, I would ask him why he did it. Sometimes, the partner being cheated on could be the major contributor to the reason why the other cheated. Anyhow, I love my FI very much. I would never cheat and he would never cheat on me.

that''s what they all say.

LOL DF!!!!! Its true....

why are you so cynical?

Maybe it stems from the time he entertained the North Korean Women''s Synchronised Swimming Team.

LOL

 

[NovemberBride]

Absolute deal-breaker for me. I know that it is hard to say what you would do in a situation like this, but this is one area where I am quite sure I know what I would do. I remember from a very early age hearing about 2 couples who were friends of my parents where the husband cheated and the wife stayed with him. I am sure they all had their various reasons, but it seemed to me that the one that stood out most was money - the husbands were the breadwinners and the wives had little earning power (did not go to college). I remember thinking that I would never stay with a man for money - not that I judge them for this, there were kids involved and they did what they thought was best. This is one of the reasons I have worked so hard in my life to be successful, so that if I was put in that situation whether I choose to go or stay can be based entirely on whether I wish to remain married to that person. And I can''t imagine wanting to be married to my DH if he cheated on me.

 

[Upgradable]

Gemgirl and NEL, thanks so much for the resources. It is amazing how we are all pretty certain in our own beliefs, almost to the point of finding it difficult to see how someone else can perceive their reactions so differently. This thread has definitely helped. I hope it helps me be the kind of friend my girlfriend needs most right now.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Date: 10/6/2009 1:13:00 PM
Author: Upgradable
Gemgirl and NEL, thanks so much for the resources. It is amazing how we are all pretty certain in our own beliefs, almost to the point of finding it difficult to see how someone else can perceive their reactions so differently. This thread has definitely helped. I hope it helps me be the kind of friend my girlfriend needs most right now.

Uppy, I have no doubt that your friendship is more important to her now than ever.

Marriages are so personal and complex that I think it''s impossible for any outsider to truly understand--I''m really glad that you are there to support her and listen.

 

[bee*]

Date: 10/5/2009 4:41:28 PM
Author: Haven
Cheating is a deal breaker for me.

As for the question about why anyone would just throw in the towel--the way I see it, the person who chooses to cheat is the one who is just throwing the marriage away. As the person being cheated on, I am not throwing in the towel, I''m dealing with circumstances that are beyond my control. And, when the circumstances are that someone cheated, I''d have no choice but to leave the relationship. I would never be able to trust that person again, so there would be no chance of having a relationship.

I think the exact same as this. 100% absolute deal breaker.

 

[LtlFirecracker]

Date: 10/6/2009 1:17:56 PM
Author: NewEnglandLady

Date: 10/6/2009 1:13:00 PM

Author: Upgradable

Gemgirl and NEL, thanks so much for the resources. It is amazing how we are all pretty certain in our own beliefs, almost to the point of finding it difficult to see how someone else can perceive their reactions so differently. This thread has definitely helped. I hope it helps me be the kind of friend my girlfriend needs most right now.

Uppy, I have no doubt that your friendship is more important to her now than ever.


Marriages are so personal and complex that I think it''s impossible for any outsider to truly understand--I''m really glad that you are there to support her and listen.

I agree. For me cheating is a deal-breaker, but I don''t know how I would react if I was in that situation and married.

I have a friend who is doing stuff my BF and I do not approve of when her husband is not around. I finally got a chance to talk with her, and it turns out she is unhappy with the circumstances of her marriage. Her husband basically made her drop her last name (she wanted to keep it as a middle name and add his on), and had determined the timing of everything, the marriage, the child. Plus, he is always gone. She is very independent with an advance degree, is working full time, and raising this child (who she loves) on her own. I talked to my BF about it, and I was surprised by his response because he takes a very hard line on cheating. He said, while he does not condone her behavior, it makes a lot more since now why she is acting like this.

I think his controlling behavior has led her to "act out" as a way out and to rebel out of resentment. I don''t think this marriage can be saved, but I asked her think about her feelings towards her husband and if there is any hope for the sake of the child.

I think if cheating is a desperate cry for help after trying to save a broken marriage, and the two are willing to work on the issues that got things to that point, than it might be worth a try.

 

[Asscherhalo_lover]

For me it would depend on what was wrong with the relationship to cause the cheating...and if that could be worked on, not the cheating itself...

 

[musey]

I could forgive, but I couldn''t forget. I know this about myself. I would forgive him, in the long run I would harbor no ill feelings (though of course this depends on the circumstances and his handling of it... but I know him, and I can guess pretty well how he''d act)... but I know that I wouldn''t be able to stay with him.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 10/6/2009 12:02:25 PM
Author: Gailey

Maybe it stems from the time he entertained the North Korean Women''s Synchronised Swimming Team.

i don''t get it.

 

[Gailey]

Date: 10/6/2009 7:59:28 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 10/6/2009 12:02:25 PM

Author: Gailey


Maybe it stems from the time he entertained the North Korean Women''s Synchronised Swimming Team.

i don''t get it.

Clearly never watched synchronised swimming then DF - they are very acrobatic

 

[Tropicmaster]

Date: 10/5/2009 3:16:22 PM
Author: janinegirly
It is a deal breaker for me. These days so many aspects of commitment and marriage have been relaxed or turned around (pre-marital relations, living together before, kids before marriage, marrying late so one can sow their oats, women can be the breadwinner now, etc etc)--that I believe that at least the area of fidelity should stay pure and absolute with no exceptions--otherwise don''t get married!

BUT having said that, we all know in most cases (at least ones I know of, and that''s only a fraction of what''s going on)--especially publicized ones--the woman seems to stand by the man for various reasons (children, forgiveness, practicality,etc), so that leads me to believe you really can''t know how you''ll react till it happens to you.

There are an equal number of men who stand by a cheating woman....just sayin

 

[T L]

Date: 10/6/2009 10:35:29 AM
Author: gemgirl

Sex and intimacy are not the same thing, but what is especially damaging about emotional affairs is that the feelings of intimacy between the two people can be even more intense than in a couple having a sexual affair. You wouldn''t think so, but it''s true. Even during emotional affairs, the guilty spouse has already ''left his wife'' in his mind and has no regard for her feelings and both people are just chomping at the bit and waiting for the big day when they finally sleep together. The anticipation intensifies their intimacy and they winding up sharing more of themselves with each other personally (but not sexually). trill is right. The cheating spouse has to break the connection at home for the affair to even exist.

Very good synopsis, but I''m not so sure about the highlighted part. Some men can live double lives. Each woman he is with, whether it''s two girlfriends, a wife and a girlfriend, might both feel they are the center of their man''s world. There are men out there that are socially and emotionally bound to multiple women, as tabu as it is in most Western society. In fact, in some societies, it is okay for the man to have multiple spouses and he can be loving to each of them. Did you ever see the HBO show, "Big Love?"

Personally, if I ever caught my spouse cheating, he''d be missing a body part

 

[MakingTheGrade]

I grew up exposed to a lot of different lifestyle choices. I once visited a village in Asia that was a matriarch society, where the women owned all the property, and they would have multiple suitors or one suitor as they saw fit, and any kids they had were raised by the woman and her family. It was an interesting set up, and certainly the idea of fidelity to them was very different.

I''ve also had friends who were "swingers" or in open relationships, all of whom were as well adjusted as most people. And again, for them, fidelity meant more than just sex outside a relationship.

Personally, I''m not in any of the above situations, but maybe being exposed to them influences how I view the way sex fits into the ideas of marriage, trust, and fidelity.

My list of marriage-ending deal breakers is pretty much just limited to physical/emotional abuse. Anything else would depend on context.

 

[steph72276]

Here are my feelings....if this happened early in our marriage before children, I would be out of there so fast his head would spin and the only way he could contact me is through a third party, namely my lawyer. However, having children together complicates things in my eyes. If you make a decision to leave, you are making that decision not only for yourself, but for your children. So if it were to happen to me now, I think I would try to go to therapy to work things out to the best of my ability. If after some hard work and time, things didn't get better and I couldn't move on from the hurt, I would make the hard decision to leave. A single, happy mom is better than 2 miserable parents living in the same house together.

As far as me cheating, I know anything is possible, but I really can't see ever doing that. Number 1, I am a horrible liar and number 2, I wear my conscious on my sleeve. If I ever tried to "get away with anything" in high school for example, my mom would see right through it. I look at situations like David Letterman where he had sex with women during the day at work, and then came home to his long time girlfriend and acted like nothing was going on. How does someone do that? I wouldn't be able to look my spouse in the face if I had betrayed him that way. I guess that is why I would be so upset if it happened, that someone is capable of lying and betraying me to that degree.

 

[gemgirl]

Date: 10/6/2009 10:15:51 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 10/6/2009 10:35:29 AM
Author: gemgirl

Sex and intimacy are not the same thing, but what is especially damaging about emotional affairs is that the feelings of intimacy between the two people can be even more intense than in a couple having a sexual affair. You wouldn''t think so, but it''s true. Even during emotional affairs, the guilty spouse has already ''left his wife'' in his mind and has no regard for her feelings and both people are just chomping at the bit and waiting for the big day when they finally sleep together. The anticipation intensifies their intimacy and they winding up sharing more of themselves with each other personally (but not sexually). trill is right. The cheating spouse has to break the connection at home for the affair to even exist.

Very good synopsis, but I''m not so sure about the highlighted part. Some men can live double lives. Each woman he is with, whether it''s two girlfriends, a wife and a girlfriend, might both feel they are the center of their man''s world. There are men out there that are socially and emotionally bound to multiple women, as tabu as it is in most Western society. In fact, in some societies, it is okay for the man to have multiple spouses and he can be loving to each of them. Did you ever see the HBO show, ''Big Love?''

Personally, if I ever caught my spouse cheating, he''d be missing a body part

It really is true that the offending spouse mentally has to break the bond of loyalty and priority to their spouse in order for cheating to happen. We have known many men who were pros at "compartmentalizing" their lives, and in fact did carry on what "seemed" on the outside to be in two completely separate relationships (one with their spouse and one with a mistress). But in order for the mistress to exist, truthfully, a husband has to mentally leave his loyalty to his primary relationship behind in order to give of himself to another person in any capacity. Two people can''t be number one in anyone''s life, no matter how hard some people try. Dr. Harley describes affairs as addictions to other people, the same way anyone can be addicted to any thing, any substance or any behavior. Affairs, just like any other addictions, require a great deal of lying, manipulating, story telling and phoney excuse giving in order to happen. Once someone lies to and manipulates their spouse, they are no longer truly in a relationship with that spouse even if they''re still having sex. It''s all an illusion. It gets complicated..... very complicated and very messy.

I think we''ve been talking about infidelity in traditional marriage, but Pluralism (what you see in "Big Love") is in fact, the best example of a man compartmentalizing his life. Then again, that''s a whole other mindset that really has nothing to do with traditional marriage as most people know it.

 

[T L]

Date: 10/7/2009 11:01:58 AM
Author: gemgirl

Date: 10/6/2009 10:15:51 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 10/6/2009 10:35:29 AM
Author: gemgirl

Sex and intimacy are not the same thing, but what is especially damaging about emotional affairs is that the feelings of intimacy between the two people can be even more intense than in a couple having a sexual affair. You wouldn''t think so, but it''s true. Even during emotional affairs, the guilty spouse has already ''left his wife'' in his mind and has no regard for her feelings and both people are just chomping at the bit and waiting for the big day when they finally sleep together. The anticipation intensifies their intimacy and they winding up sharing more of themselves with each other personally (but not sexually). trill is right. The cheating spouse has to break the connection at home for the affair to even exist.

Very good synopsis, but I''m not so sure about the highlighted part. Some men can live double lives. Each woman he is with, whether it''s two girlfriends, a wife and a girlfriend, might both feel they are the center of their man''s world. There are men out there that are socially and emotionally bound to multiple women, as tabu as it is in most Western society. In fact, in some societies, it is okay for the man to have multiple spouses and he can be loving to each of them. Did you ever see the HBO show, ''Big Love?''

Personally, if I ever caught my spouse cheating, he''d be missing a body part

It really is true that the offending spouse mentally has to break the bond of loyalty and priority to their spouse in order for cheating to happen. We have known many men who were pros at ''compartmentalizing'' their lives, and in fact did carry on what ''seemed'' on the outside to be in two completely separate relationships (one with their spouse and one with a mistress). But in order for the mistress to exist, truthfully, a husband has to mentally leave his loyalty to his primary relationship behind in order to give of himself to another person in any capacity. Two people can''t be number one in anyone''s life, no matter how hard some people try. Dr. Harley describes affairs as addictions to other people, the same way anyone can be addicted to any thing, any substance or any behavior. Affairs, just like any other addictions, require a great deal of lying, manipulating, story telling and phoney excuse giving in order to happen. Once someone lies to and manipulates their spouse, they are no longer truly in a relationship with that spouse even if they''re still having sex. It''s all an illusion. It gets complicated..... very complicated and very messy.

I think we''ve been talking about infidelity in traditional marriage, but Pluralism (what you see in ''Big Love'') is in fact, the best example of a man compartmentalizing his life. Then again, that''s a whole other mindset that really has nothing to do with traditional marriage as most people know it.

I agree there. I think a man does need to drop some loyalty, if not all, to his spouse or current girlfriend, in order to cheat. This is totally different than living double lives, which consists of deceoption and betryal, and a very small conscience. I had the two confused in your original post. I know in my case, I couldn''t live with myself if I cheated on my husband. I would feel so incrediby guilty, it woudl show like a giant billboard on my forehead.

Great post by the way Gemgirl. Very interesting!!

 

[purselover]

Date: 10/5/2009 3:53:53 PM
Author: lucyandroger
Not for marriage. SO and I believe marriage is forever. So yes, that would mean that if there were infidelity that would be something we''d have to work through. At this point I cannot imagine what kind of circumstances would lead to either one of us cheating and hope that we will never let our relationship get to a point where I could imagine such circumstances. That''s not to say he would ''get away'' with cheating. I''m sure there''s a lot of work and healing that has to go into fixing that kind of breach of trust and it wouldn''t be fun for either of us. But to me, committing to marriage is committing to making it work, despite the other person''s faults and mistakes.

I haven''t read through all the responses yet but this is how I feel for the most part, if he was maintaining a relationship with another person and refused to stop seeing her I''m sure I''d feel differently though and want to end things.

 

[FrekeChild]

Depends on the context.

I''ve been the "cheater" (high school, just kissing, I couldn''t get myself out of the relationship, he was super controlling and emotionally abusive, not to mention an alcoholic--bad situation) before, and while it was not fun for either of us, it taught me a lot about myself, and my level of tolerance.

It just depends...