A Discussion On Bias

[Lula]

Date: 7/25/2009 11:52:12 AM
Author: Rockdiamond


However there is one point you seem to miss CCL.

What if people that have Daussi cushions are reading this? What if they bought a stone based on it''s visual characteristics and they love it. There''s plenty of places beside DBL to buy a Daussi ring.


Clearly many people posting have no problem with insulting vendors with baseless bashing- but what other consumers, and their well loved diamonds?

Good point, David. I know there are several people on PS with beautiful Daussi cushions.

 

[Gypsy]

Sara... I wanted to say, that your post was very thoughtful and I found myself nodding to so much of it. I am so glad you are on here with us, and want to DITTO your post above.

 

[chrono]

Date: 7/25/2009 6:09:06 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 7/25/2009 2:21:43 AM
Author: Richard Sherwood


I''m not talking about poorly cut diamonds, Moh. I''m talking about well cut diamonds which don''t deserved to be trashed because they are not ideals or super ideals.

I hear you Rich and take what you say seriously, I will watch not only myself but if I think this is happening I will broach the subject.

Those don''t deserve to be trashed but perhaps still pointed out to the consumer to let him/her decide if that''s what they want or if they still want a super ideal stone.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 7/25/2009 3:02:34 PM
Author: Chrono

Date: 7/25/2009 6:09:06 AM

Author: Lorelei

Date: 7/25/2009 2:21:43 AM

Author: Richard Sherwood



I''m not talking about poorly cut diamonds, Moh. I''m talking about well cut diamonds which don''t deserved to be trashed because they are not ideals or super ideals.

I hear you Rich and take what you say seriously, I will watch not only myself but if I think this is happening I will broach the subject.

Those don''t deserve to be trashed but perhaps still pointed out to the consumer to let him/her decide if that''s what they want or if they still want a super ideal stone.

bingo,, give the consumer the info and let them make an informed decision.
That happens everyday here at PS.
That is not going to change because it will destroy the very fabric of PS if it does.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 7/25/2009 3:20:13 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 7/25/2009 3:02:34 PM
Author: Chrono

Date: 7/25/2009 6:09:06 AM

Author: Lorelei

Date: 7/25/2009 2:21:43 AM

Author: Richard Sherwood



I'm not talking about poorly cut diamonds, Moh. I'm talking about well cut diamonds which don't deserved to be trashed because they are not ideals or super ideals.

I hear you Rich and take what you say seriously, I will watch not only myself but if I think this is happening I will broach the subject.

Those don't deserve to be trashed but perhaps still pointed out to the consumer to let him/her decide if that's what they want or if they still want a super ideal stone.

bingo,, give the consumer the info and let them make an informed decision.
That happens everyday here at PS.
That is not going to change because it will destroy the very fabric of PS if it does.

Thritto - also important is to try and take a fair and balanced view of each diamond even if not "Pricescope Perfect" so to speak and point out the pros and cons of buying a non top cut diamond, some of which that have good proportions and finish can be extremely lovely and a great choice for some if they can make an informed decision by understanding the importance of overall cut quality. Hence the role of the PS prosumer in helping the new poster evaluate all the options so they can ultimately decide which choice will make them happiest .Also I think it is important to understand that ( it seems to me anyway) that some new posters treat the regular old time prosumers with great respect and highly value their input, so it is also important to choose our words carefully and try to remain impartial and not to dismiss diamonds that could be super choices on non issues especially with images. As an example, point out if there is a smigeon of leakage showing on an IS image by all means but bear in mind that in some cases it won't have much if any effect on visual beauty in reality. If you want super duper luper perfection in images then fine but if not, don't make things sound worse than they actually are

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 7/25/2009 3:31:33 PM
Author: Lorelei


Thritto - also important is to try and take a fair and balanced view of each diamond even if not 'Pricescope Perfect' so to speak and point out the pros and cons of buying a non top cut diamond, some of which that have good proportions and finish can be extremely lovely and a great choice for some if they can make an informed decision by understanding the importance of overall cut quality. Hence the role of the PS prosumer in helping the new poster evaluate all the options so they can ultimately decide which choice will make them happiest .Also I think it is important to understand that ( it seems to me anyway) that some new posters treat the regular old time prosumers with great respect and highly value their input, so it is also important to choose our words carefully and try to remain impartial and not to dismiss diamonds that could be super choices on non issues especially with images. As an example, point out if there is a smigeon of leakage showing on an IS image by all means but bear in mind that in some cases it won't have much if any effect on visual beauty in reality. If you want super duper luper perfection in images then fine but if not, don't make things sound worse than they actually are

We already do that every day so what were they complaining about again?

As far as leakage goes it depends on what the person is looking for.
If they want the very best than that means no leakage beyond the normal contrast leakage in a round and that which is necessary or unavoidable in other shapes.
If they just want a beautiful diamond that looks just as good then some more leakage is ok within reason.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 7/25/2009 4:36:16 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 7/25/2009 3:31:33 PM
Author: Lorelei


Thritto - also important is to try and take a fair and balanced view of each diamond even if not ''Pricescope Perfect'' so to speak and point out the pros and cons of buying a non top cut diamond, some of which that have good proportions and finish can be extremely lovely and a great choice for some if they can make an informed decision by understanding the importance of overall cut quality. Hence the role of the PS prosumer in helping the new poster evaluate all the options so they can ultimately decide which choice will make them happiest .Also I think it is important to understand that ( it seems to me anyway) that some new posters treat the regular old time prosumers with great respect and highly value their input, so it is also important to choose our words carefully and try to remain impartial and not to dismiss diamonds that could be super choices on non issues especially with images. As an example, point out if there is a smigeon of leakage showing on an IS image by all means but bear in mind that in some cases it won''t have much if any effect on visual beauty in reality. If you want super duper luper perfection in images then fine but if not, don''t make things sound worse than they actually are

We already do that every day so what were they complaining about again?

As far as leakage goes it depends on what the person is looking for.
If they want the very best than that means no leakage beyond the normal contrast leakage in a round and that which is necessary or unavoidable in other shapes.
If they just want a beautiful diamond that looks just as good then some more leakage is ok within reason.

Ditto ditto!

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 7/25/2009 1:38:00 PM
Author: Todd Gray
There is no place, nor need for animosity on a forum like Price Scope... As noted, most of the vendors who contribute regularly on the forum get along with each other - as an insider of that circle, I feel that it is because we share a passion for diamonds which have been carefully cut to exhibit exceptional beauty. We realize that our niche in the market is one which is exceptionally small and the reality is that we truly need each other in order to promote the enthusiasm which we share for the diamonds which we have chosen to sell. When we are offended by something that another one of us said (often inadvertently) on the forum, I like to think that we''re not quick to respond to it in writing on the forum, but rather have a close enough relationship that we pick up the phone or shoot off a quick email along the lines of ''Huh? Did you eat burnt toast this morning, or what?'' and sometimes it''s a little more ''WT#'' ?!?!

I can honestly say that I don''t have any animosity for any of the vendors that I walk the halls of PS with, those who know me (truly) will attest that I tend to be quite transparent to the extent that if we have a problem, we''re going to work it out. And to that note, I feel it important to state that I don''t have issue with Judah or his father Barry, SuperbCert, Excel, whatever, nor David of Diamonds by Lauren. But I''m a dealer, not a consumer and not a pro-sumer, and granted my perception and understanding of their operations is going to be different.

I''ve known Barry for as long as I can remember in terms of my time in the industry, we''re competitors - good ones. I think it is pretty cool that his son Judah is working with him and I think he brings the enthusiasm of youth to the equation (at 42 Judah, you''re ''youth'' to me) - I would love one of my sons or my daughter to want to work with me! But they''re chasing their own dreams and I''m just as excited about that. I don''t know what mistakes Barry or Judah might have made previously on the forum, I didn''t do any back research because I''m more interested in the present, but I will say that I''ve been kicked off a forum or two in my time and I''ve always found PS to be a place that is willing to extend a second chance when it is deemed appropriate.

With regards to David at DBL, I know that there is some tension running behind the scenes and I''m not sure what it is, but I know that we disagree about the importance of the numerical data of a diamond in terms of the selection process and I''d like to say ''so what'' because I think it makes for good conversation - and I also realize that we largely move in different circles within the diamond market and ''numbers'' don''t apply to the fancy color market - they REALLY don''t! because fancy color diamonds are cut to bizarre dimensions (by colorless / near colorless standards - my standards because that is my market) because fancy color diamonds are cut for ''depth of color'' so it is natural for David to constantly insist that the numbers have nothing to do with beauty and that it is necessary to look at the diamond in order to determine whether it is exceptional. The reality is that I can buy colorless / near colorless round brilliant ideal cut diamonds all day long off of the numerical data provided by a manufacturer''s Sarin | OGI | Helium | report BUT I would NOT dare to even attempt to do so with a fancy color diamond (which is David''s primary market).

I love the wonderful comments that have been shared by Gypsy and others about me, I truly appreciate them. But I have to say that I am recognized for who I am within the industry largely as the result of my friends within the industry, many of whom are my direct competitors. Those of you who have been on PS for awhile know me as ''Nice Ice'' and were a little confused when I popped up flying the flag of HPD while Nice Ice is still up and running... As explained on another thread, I accepted the offer of helping Wink promote the launch of HPD here on PS because he, John Pollard and Paul Slegers realized that I needed something to distract me from the details of a heinous lawsuit which was filed on me / the estate / the company by Robin''s family (a lawsuit BTW which was just terminated in my favor after a mediator determined that their claims lacked ''any'' merit). You should know that when I won the lawsuit two short weeks ago, that I received numerous phone calls and email messages from my competitors sharing their excitement - again, they should have been crying, but every one of them said ''what can I do to get you up and running strong, faster?'' and this includes Wink who obviously benefits directly from every post I currently make on PS under his flag (okay, from most of them when I''m not on a rant!).

Think about what I just said ''I accepted the offer to help Wink launch HPD because he, John Pollard and Paul Slegers realized that I needed something to distract me...'' and Wink was a direct competitor of mine at the time! As such he should have been reveling in the promise of my suffering and the potential demise of Nice Ice - but he wasn''t, he was worried about me and concerned that he might lose the insight of a web site that promotes a passion for diamonds of exceptional cut. Throughout the past few years while ''all of this'' was going on, I''ve received many, many, many phone calls offering support in the form of ''anything you need'' from Jonathan at GOG; Brian & Lesley of BGD; Jim at James Allen; Barry & Judah of Excel; Debi (CEO) White Flash; a friend at Blue Nile; Scott at Union Diamonds; and a few others who I won''t mention because they are ''those who shall not be mentioned'' on the forum and a host of others who escape my mind at the moment - but the point is, our community is as cooperative as it is competitive and I like to think that we''re all having a lot of fun promoting our love of diamonds while promoting our individual brands - think about this, while ''Infinity'' is a brand - every Infinity dealer is a brand of their own because we each tend to select a niche of diamond quality within the brand to fit our own ''bias'' or preferences and we argue about those preferences passionately when we get together

Awhile back there was a thread that expressed appreciation for the fact that Jonathan and I at GOG worked really well together, it was the result of a client asking me to help him find a stone through Nice Ice which I couldn''t find, but I looked around and discovered that Jonathan had one - and the fact is that I used the diamond search engine here on PS to search ''in house'' diamonds and compare the details and prices (just like the pro-sumers do) - so I sent the client a link to the diamond and said buy it there... But at the same time, I also referred people to other dealers like BGD, WF, JA, BN and some of them purchased and others were confused by the concept. But the reality is that like the pro-sumers on this forum, I was merely looking for a diamond that fit the profile of the characteristics of the diamond that the client expressed and interest in within the confines of my own personal selection criteria which has been developed by fine tuning my own preferences over the years, the development of my own bias towards exceptional cut quality.

I know that as dealers we probably don''t express our gratitude enough for the pro-sumers who frequent the forum and make selfless contributions beyond the depths of reason or understanding, but you all should know that as dealers we truly appreciate the passion which you clearly share of our love for diamonds, colored gems and fine jewelry. Of course we often ask ourselves ''how the heck does [insert whatever name you want] find the time to respond to all those questions on PS? I''m in the industry and I don''t have the time to make such a commitment (thought: because I have to earn a living)'' but the fact that you (all) continually refer people to the lot of us (who you are familiar with) without compensation is proof to anybody who bothers to take more than a second to look for your impartiality to know that it is genuine. So thank you!

I have been following but not posting in this thread because I really did not have anything that needed saying that was not already being said better.

As per the comments in red above. Todd has been a friend of mine for many years, long before his wife died and even helped me find a good bench for certain custom pieces when we were still direct competitors. That is just the nature of our business, we rarely have the need to not share with one another as most of us feel that what helps the business helps us in the long run. Helping a friend helps the business and helps the heart. Helping the heart is just good business, it is a glorious circle.

Todd and I feel that Pricescope has become part of the circle, and it is something that we both give blessings for in our thoughts and prayers.

Good on you Todd for sharing so much with so much feeling. I will be a little sad when you go back to being Nice Ice, but only because I have come to treasure our near daily talks so much.

Wink

 

[Lula]

Date: 7/25/2009 2:54:41 PM
Author: Gypsy
Sara... I wanted to say, that your post was very thoughtful and I found myself nodding to so much of it. I am so glad you are on here with us, and want to DITTO your post above.

Thank you, Gypsy! That's very kind of you. Congratulations on your decision to take the GIA online course and study for your GG!

I don't consider myself a prosumer either, and I laughed when you said you use the same cut-and-paste referral sheet for any questions on proportions! I have that same "cheat sheet" on a Word document on my computer. I'm not sure I will ever be comfortable recommending stones. For example, I don't think I will ever fully understand painting and digging -- but that's why I choose to buy a branded cut (Infinity) so somebody else can worry about that (Paul). I get to enjoy the stone!

Just a final thought before I sign off to go outside and have some fun in the sun -- Yes, there is often a bias toward certain "super-ideals" and branded cuts. And as Todd and others have said, that is a very special niche market here on PS. But what I see more typically are consumers who simply want well-performing, non-branded stones, or want to pay less money and find the beauties in the haystacks out there. And I have seen the prosumers go to bat over and over for these consumers, too, helping them find just what they are looking for, whether it be from BN or their local B&M. Sometimes these consumers become "accidental cut fanatics" like me, but more often I see happy postings from consumers thanking the prosumers and the vendors for their extremely beautiful, well-cut sparkling diamond that was way better (and bigger) than they every thought they could afford. Those posts always make me smile.

 

[treefrog]

I''d like to preface this by saying I think this site helped me tremendously in purchasing a diamond recently. I think this is a great subject and we''ve made a lot of progress. Many people have made extremely good points on both sides of the fence. I think what ruffles my feathers the most is the references to the fact that we aren''t GG educated, make recommendations without seeing the diamonds, virtually that all we do is for naut. Just because we''re not professionals. I think the stories here about the many, many happy customers with beautiful diamonds speaks volumes for what we do. To imply we don''t know what we''re talking about is ludicrous. With over 2 million posts, I think many people have been here around enough to get a feel for what people are looking for.

If I can take a slight detour...
I am a firefighter and emergency medical technician. I''ve been doing it for 21 years. I have been in numerous house fires, I had a room flashover with me and my crew in it, I''ve coaxed cats down out of trees, I''ve done CPR numerous times - several successfully, I''ve saved or helped saved countless lives, I''ve been at incidents that are too painfull to even mention, I have one lady that refers to me as "My daughter''s guardian angel" after the infant got run over by a car. Oh... did I mention that I''m a volunteer? I don''t get paid for it. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Does this mean I don''t know what i''m talking about? If your home were on fire, would you rather wait for a professional?

I see the People on Pricescope the same. Highly dedicated and knowledgeable that are quite capable of picking out a diamond that is most likely to be a good performer. Yes, they go with the safe bets. Yes, there are many, many diamonds that are likely to be very well performing diamonds that don''t get recommended. Our "job" is not to sell every diamond for you. Our job is to figure out what people want and provide suggestions that we think are most likely to please them. This is done by personal experience, feedback and with the wisdom of 49,000 people with over 2 million collective posts.

No, we don''t have the diamonds and we go by pictures and use tools as an aid to help us in making a strong recommendation. Based on the feedback in the threads, again, I think it is done with great success. To say somebody needs to see the diamond is just not entirely true. There was a recent post about somebody that bought a diamond but when it went for a pre-sale assessment, the vendor found an indented natural inclusion that wasn''t on the AGS report. What does this tell me? The human element isn''t perfect either. Then there''s the notion that some certs have diamonds graded looser than others. What? you mean a G isn''t always a G? Yup. Grading is subjective. Not even the human element can level the table. I suppose there could be (or maybe there is) a tool that measures light passing through a diamond and comes up with an absolute color, rather than depending on a human''s perception or loose standards. My point is that it is a subjective process and without absolute standards, ideally not human based) on grading, things are rather flexible and sometimes inaccurate. We use tools, images, and numbers we know are likely to be safe. Yup - some great diamonds are missed. That''s where the vendor''s business skills come in. Figure out supply and demand and customer wants and either don''t buy the ones that aren''t selling for you or devise a business plan that works for that niche. Most people don''t buy diamonds suggested here totally blind. Once narrowed down, they are often advised to call the vendor to talk about particular diamonds. It does happen. Many talk to somebody that does see the diamond before the sale. The notion that an expert isn''t involved is unfounded. I called. The experience was wonderful and it simply sealed the deal for me.

There''s also the subject of many store clerks clearly not knowing what they''re talking about. Sure - many people get scared by the mall clerks, come here to vent or get help/feedback, and are offered suggestions. Some people don''t want hearts and arrows. Color is more important. Looking through posts, I see diamonds of all kinds being recommended because everybody wants something different.

Richard pointed out that most diamonds are sold at the stores. I have no doubt he is right. For many, however, they come here and seek non-pressured and independent suggestions. I''ve never seen a post where somebody said "Don''t go there or don''t buy that." Maybe there are but we provide suggestions based on years of collective knowledge and feedback. Many vendors keep a close eye on the boards and pitch in as appropriate. I have always been pleased to see that and again, based on the feedback I see, the system works very well.

Personally, I think I got a much better diamond for much less than i could have without PS. For that, I am so very grateful to so many that put in the time and dedication to make this site a success for so many. Money is tight for a lot of people these days. If we can help people to get more for less, they will be very happy. If they''re happy, and saved money, they are going to talk about. I certainly have. In turn, this will sell even more. Be ready for it and everybody will be happy.

Again and finally, I think this has been a great thread. Most everybody made excellent posts on both sides of the fence and I hope there are no hard feelings and that we can use this for consumers to learn from vendors and for vendors to learn from consumers.

Treefrog

 

[strmrdr]

Bravo Treefrog!!!! well said

also
Thank you for your service to your community.

 

[LD]

Is there bias? Yes.

Why? It's based on personal experiences. Some vendors seem to consistently give good service so get recommended more and are deemed to be "safe".

Is it right? Yes and no. If I'm looking for a plumber or an electrican, I will ALWAYS get a recommendation from a friend. If I'm looking for a substantial purchase I will also get recommendations BUT the difference is, I shop around. If I find a better deal elsewhere I will check out to see if I can find anything negative (and if it's consistent then it might put me off) but on the whole I'd be happy to use somebody new if I approached the vendor and they were attentive etc.

Do I have my own bias? Yes for UK based diamond vendors because I live here, get some great deals etc and so am happy to put myself on the line and make recommendations.

Am I biased to US vendors? No and in actual fact, my experiences with the white diamond vendors haven't been as positive as some and so for that reason I might not go to the "normally" recommended vendors.

Whether there's bias or not, the fact remains that I love being able to post up and ask questions if I'm unsure about something. I may not take on board the advice but then again I may. At least I will be (hopefully) more informed as a result. That is the true worth of PS to consumers.

At the end of the day, I ask for opinions but then it's my choice to research further to ensure I get the best deal. The problem is that I think some people don't go that step further.

Judah, if I may add - and this is slightly off topic - I've never forgotton one of your posts (to me) that was incredibly complimentary on a diamond I had bought and photographed to show the fluorescence. I was so taken by your post that I actually made a point of looking at your website. So in a strange way, even when vendors aren't selling anything, the way they act on PS can actually guide consumers their way.

 

[jet2ks]

Treefrog,

Fabulous, well thought and well written post. I couldn''t agree with you more. Thank you for making some great points.

Date: 7/25/2009 5:54:41 PM
Author: treefrog

If I can take a slight detour...
I am a firefighter and emergency medical technician. I''ve been doing it for 21 years. I have been in numerous house fires, I had a room flashover with me and my crew in it, I''ve coaxed cats down out of trees, I''ve done CPR numerous times - several successfully, I''ve saved or helped saved countless lives, I''ve been at incidents that are too painfull to even mention, I have one lady that refers to me as ''My daughter''s guardian angel'' after the infant got run over by a car. Oh... did I mention that I''m a volunteer? I don''t get paid for it. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Does this mean I don''t know what i''m talking about? If your home were on fire, would you rather wait for a professional?

And thank you for that, too.

 

[treefrog]

Karl, Jet - Thank you. It means a lot, it really does. I don''t do it for thanks and I don''t intend to derail this topic even further. I do it because I love to help people. It is not my profession but that really shouldn''t matter. The very same as so many others on here.

Treefrog.

 

[Lula]

It was a wonderful analogy, Tree, and, even more so, a wonderful tribute to the kind of people who do things just because it''s the right thing to do and because they feel passionate about something. Thank you!

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 7/25/2009 6:29:03 PM
Author: sarap333
It was a wonderful analogy, Tree, and, even more so, a wonderful tribute to the kind of people who do things just because it's the right thing to do and because they feel passionate about something. Thank you!

Ditto, and thank you for doing something so important, brave and civil minded. You honor us with the analogy. Our front lines are nothing like running into a burning building, but yes the desire to serve and assist is the same. My husband's father was a Fire Chief, volunteer, and so please understand when I say that... volunteer or career, if you were in my house and (God forbid) there was a fire... I'd leave you and my husband to it, and the cats and I would be in the car.

Probably with my diamonds.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Todd- thank you so much for your post- I agree wholeheartedly. We can disagree about some of the fine points, and so what. I''m sure we have a lot more in common than the differences in opinion that we both agree is healthy.
I regret we''ve never gotten to meet, and hope you''ll stop into our office the next time you might be in NY.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 7/25/2009 12:42:05 PM
Author: Ellen
Rich,
Lastly, if you are unhappy with what is being said sometimes, why don''t you jump in and add your very valuable opinions? I think that might help a lot more than just berating us in public.

You are one of my favorite people on here, I think you know that. I both like, and respect you very much (the latter was earned btw, the former was instant

). So I hope you take my thoughts with the sincere intentions they were written.

Okayyyyyy..........I apologize.

Let''s all have a beer together in the White House.

 

[Rockdiamond]

treefrog- even though we might disagree abut diamonds, I am so very grateful to you- and other firefighters who selflessly put themselves at risk to help others.
Bless you.


AS it relates to this conversation:
If a house was burning- heaven forbid- would you rather it was responded to by someone who learned firefighting online- as opposed to someone like yourself, who's been to countless fires? In this regard, whether a person is volunteering or getting paid makes no difference.

However the professionals posting here do not get paid either- so in that regard, we're all volunteers

 

[Judah Gutwein]

Friends,

I've been watching this thread evolve and I appreciate all the input. I'm glad I started this thread.

Gypsy, I believe you opened a pandoras box when you opined that my motivation for starting this thread may have been less than stellar. I assure you this wasn't the case. I respect and have duly noted your earlier comments. However, to say that I do not agree with your liberal INTERPRETATION of my earlier remarks, would be an understatement.

I never intended to insult prosumers or to elevate vendors. I most certainly did not use the words 'capricious' 'reckless' and other such harsh words which you took the liberty of attributing to me in a direct quote! You are putting words in my mouth which I never said.

My motivation in starting this thread was pure and I believe my posts have been transparent and even handed and have encouraged discussion..which was/is the point. I have consistently pointed out the high regard I have for prosumers and it saddens me to be placed into a position where I have to address a liberal interpretation of what I believe were clealry stated and purely motivated remarks.

I'd like to go on record with a few points:

1. Gypsy; I do not believe I am "above reproach". God (and my Wife) knows I am not and if I thought I was, I would not have started this thread in the first place (my name is Judah, BTW... In fact, if I wanted to 'play it safe' and wanted to maintain some type of 'status quo', i would not have encouraged this discussion. The fact that I have been thanked here for starting this thread, points to the helpful and positive nature of its objective and premise.

2. I respect this forum and all of the people who contribute to it, it is why I am here. If you look at the approx. 230 of my postings, I hope you will see a pattern of open and respectful discussion and (I hope) sound advice and feedback wherever I can give it and as time permits. .I will allow my contributions here to speak for me. I have been respectful and helpful and hope that I have been adding to the flavor and positive atmosphere here. I am grateful to have received positive feedabck from both the moderators and fellow posters/tradespeople here. I look forward to my continued participation here as time permits and wherever I may be able to contribute positively.

3. It is unfortunate that a one sided reflection and regurgitation on past history from 5 plus years ago and a history which I WASN'T A PART OF, was dredged up to be hurled into MY OWN face as an attempt to discredit ME and Excel in 2009. I don't believe any discredit was warranted or deserved (I don't believe my creation of and comments on this thread deserved some of the hurtful things said here) ...................In fact, I find myself wondering how my intentions and purpose in starting this thread has evolved to the point, where I'd have to offer up such defense and clarification. .....So goes it......

However, since it WAS brought up, let me say this:

1. 'Judah Gutwein' WAS NEVER BANNED FROM PRICESCOPE. (Sorry for referring to myself in the 3rd person..just trying to make a point!)
2. Judah Gutwein never even contributed to pricescope until my first posting several months ago.
3. Since my first posting, I have tried very hard to blend in, to be respectful and mindful and to contribute here in a positive way. I believe I have been accomplishing this and look forward to continuing to do so.
4. ExcelDiamonds.com works EXTREMELY hard to earn our customers trust and satisfaction and our feedback here and elsewhere speaks to that.

That's all I'm going to say on this subject and with many thanks to all of you for participating in what I still believe was/is an important and helpful discussion!

BTW, Todd (big shout out at you!!), I'm 30 years old, not 42....so you got more than those few years on me...

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 7/25/2009 10:09:53 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
treefrog- even though we might disagree abut diamonds, I am so very grateful to you- and other firefighters who selflessly put themselves at risk to help others.

Bless you.



AS it relates to this conversation:

If a house was burning- heaven forbid- would you rather it was responded to by someone who learned firefighting online- as opposed to someone like yourself, who''s been to countless fires? In this regard, whether a person is volunteering or getting paid makes no difference.


However the professionals posting here do not get paid either- so in that regard, we''re all volunteers

This comment *really* bugs me - and just when the conversation was winding down to a nice agreeable point too.

Again, RD you imply that the consumers and prosumers who are dedicated to helping others on here aren''t qualified to, simply because they learned the majority of their diamond education online?!
Your analogy doesn''t carry through, and simply has attempted to misuse Treefrog''s apt and sincere one.

Plus, nobody should get paid for posting here. But undoubtedly you do get sales and kickbacks from posting here - so in that regard, no you cannot level yourself as the same as the volunteering consumers.

Finally, and to state the obvious - if your store was one of the "preferred" PS vendors that had earned continual mention and referrals from the prosumers, would you be so hyper critical of their contributions then? I highly doubt it.

 

[risingsun]

Date: 7/25/2009 10:09:53 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
treefrog- even though we might disagree abut diamonds, I am so very grateful to you- and other firefighters who selflessly put themselves at risk to help others.
Bless you.


AS it relates to this conversation:
If a house was burning- heaven forbid- would you rather it was responded to by someone who learned firefighting online- as opposed to someone like yourself, who's been to countless fires? In this regard, whether a person is volunteering or getting paid makes no difference.

However the professionals posting here do not get paid either- so in that regard, we're all volunteers

David~are you really relating your years in the jewelry business with the training that goes into being a firefighter and then comparing it to the online advice given in this forum by prosumers/consumers

I am appalled that you would make such an analogy. There is no equivalency between learning about firefighting/lifesaving and recommending diamonds. You have truly gone too far. Treefrog wrote a heartfelt post and you attempted to use it and make it all about you. You are making your own reputation on this board. You have no one to blame but yourself.

 

[Kaleigh]

Date: 7/25/2009 11:30:39 PM
Author: risingsun

Date: 7/25/2009 10:09:53 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
treefrog- even though we might disagree abut diamonds, I am so very grateful to you- and other firefighters who selflessly put themselves at risk to help others.
Bless you.


AS it relates to this conversation:
If a house was burning- heaven forbid- would you rather it was responded to by someone who learned firefighting online- as opposed to someone like yourself, who''s been to countless fires? In this regard, whether a person is volunteering or getting paid makes no difference.

However the professionals posting here do not get paid either- so in that regard, we''re all volunteers

David~are you really relating your years in the jewelry business with the training that goes into being a firefighter and then comparing it to the online advice given in this forum by prosumers/consumers

I am appalled that you would make such an analogy. There is no equivalency between learning about firefighting/lifesaving and recommending diamonds. You have truly gone too far. Treefrog wrote a heartfelt post and you attempted to use it and make it all about you. You are making your own reputation on this board. You have no one to blame but yourself.

David once again you have gone too far, I have no words...Risingsun says it all as far as I am concerned... Watch your words, they are your legacy...

 

[Rockdiamond]

Marian, I was not the one to introduce the correlation of firefighting to PS.
arjunajane, your post highlights the value of an alternative viewpoint being stated.

ETA...Great thread, and post Judah

 

[Gypsy]

to our esteemed professionals (by virtue of occupation) Judah and David demonstrating, once again, that they just don't get it. I'm done.

 

[risingsun]

Date: 7/25/2009 11:53:50 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Marian, I was not the one to introduce the correlation of firefighting to PS.
arjunajane, your post highlights the value of an alternative viewpoint being stated.

ETA...Great thread, and post Judah

That was Treefrog's story, not yours. You took it and ran with it for your own purposes. You made an inappropriate analogy. You made it about yourself. It is an example of selective self-centered attention. Can you never take responsibility for your own actions?

 

[treefrog]

Rockdiamond,

I feel insulted. My analogy was a real situation. Your comment about having an "online" trained firefighter isn''t even a possibility. I''m not playing "what if''s" with you. I can create ficticious analogies on the expert side of the fence as well. I don''t, however, live in a fantasy world and it would add nothing credible to this topic.

Judah, I did not read the historical posts. They don''t matter to me. Very enlightening topic. Seriously. Best of luck to you.

Sarap333, Gypsy, arjunajane, etc. Thank you.

Like Gypsy, I am done here.

Treefrog

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 7/26/2009 1:56:31 AM
Author: treefrog
Rockdiamond,

I feel insulted. My analogy was a real situation. Your comment about having an ''online'' trained firefighter isn''t even a possibility. I''m not playing ''what if''s'' with you. I can create ficticious analogies on the expert side of the fence as well. I don''t, however, live in a fantasy world and it would add nothing credible to this topic.

Judah, I did not read the historical posts. They don''t matter to me. Very enlightening topic. Seriously. Best of luck to you.

Sarap333, Gypsy, arjunajane, etc. Thank you.

Like Gypsy, I am done here.

Treefrog

Treeforg....please

 

[Abril]

I don''t give much weight to the prosumers'' opinions. Or to the experts''. There''s bias everywhere. Filter out the noise.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 7/25/2009 1:38:00 PM
Author: Todd Gray

With regards to David at DBL, I know that there is some tension running behind the scenes and I''m not sure what it is, but I know that we disagree about the importance of the numerical data of a diamond in terms of the selection process and I''d like to say ''so what'' because I think it makes for good conversation - and I also realize that we largely move in different circles within the diamond market and ''numbers'' don''t apply to the fancy color market - they REALLY don''t! because fancy color diamonds are cut to bizarre dimensions (by colorless / near colorless standards - my standards because that is my market) because fancy color diamonds are cut for ''depth of color'' so it is natural for David to constantly insist that the numbers have nothing to do with beauty and that it is necessary to look at the diamond in order to determine whether it is exceptional. The reality is that I can buy colorless / near colorless round brilliant ideal cut diamonds all day long off of the numerical data provided by a manufacturer''s Sarin | OGI | Helium | report BUT I would NOT dare to even attempt to do so with a fancy color diamond (which is David''s primary market).

Todd,

This is a wonderful post and really helps me understand where RD is coming from. It is too bad he cannot communicate this well enough himself.
The problem is that he doesn''t qualify his comments and doesn''t restrict them tofancy coloured diamonds. Pricescope has a colored stones section and his comments about the pitfalls of quanitative screening of stones would be far better suited for that thread.

Taken in proper context and given that there is a far different set of rules in the fancy coloured market or there are a distinct lack of rules for these type of stones his comments hold a lot more educational value.
There is still room for quantitative trends in optics for any type of stone and any measureable quality and there will come a day when our understanding of gemstone optics allows us to apply theoretical models to almost any stone. Even now there are cutters who optimize coloured stones for "depth of colour" and a good educator and communicator would be able to recognize these trends and educate consumers on them.

Thanks,

CCL