A Discussion On Bias

[Modified Brilliant]

An important topic is being presented here. Thanks, Judah.
As a trade member, there are days when I lurk and days when I post.
I think long and hard before I post.
I ask myself if my contribution is beneficial, important to the discussion or just an added nod of approval.
I do observe bias for certain vendors, but like any product, a consumer can read the reviews and not agree with them.
Consumer Reports magazine shows bias by" recommending" certain products but that doesn''t mean you should buy those products.

It''s a big world out there with lots of consumers, prosumers, vendors and industry professionals.
I think overall, we blend together nicely and each one of us has a right to say what we feel without scorn. Personal attacks are always unacceptable.
And one does not always have to be right.

www.metrojewelryappraisers.com

 

[LtlFirecracker]

Here is my take on the whole thing.

What got me on this forum was something that happened years prior. When I was 16, my mom bought me a pair of diamond studs that I picked out. I knew that diamonds had color grades and that was about it. When I took them into a jeweler to get new backs, I asked them about this black thing in the diamond. The jeweler told me it was something called an inclusion and that inclusions are part of diamonds, but that was a really bad one and that basically I got ripped off. It started to make me wonder. Why didn''t I notice the inclusion in the jewelry store? Why didn''t the sales person tell me? Years later, when I thought I was getting engaged (the relationship didn''t work out) I went onto Tiffany''s website, and was able to learn about diamonds, because it was written in a way that was easy to understand. I did a google search on Tiffany''s found PS. Two years later when I was ready to get my diamond studs, I came back to this forum and haven''t left.

What I was looking for was a way to know everything about the diamond before I bought it so I wouldn''t be surprised. Sadly, with the state of the industry, I felt the only way to do that was to fully educate myself. I find I like higher clarity stones than most people on here, I know I am paying more, but I don''t want the experience I had before where I looked at my diamond everyday and hated it.

I am mostly on CS, but what I try to do is educate people and let them make their own decision. Maybe that ring from the brand name store has a mark up. I would let the buyer know that, and if they are still set on a ring from that place, I would not suggest alternative places. Maybe they really want a big stone, and are willing to take a small eye visible inclusion. As long as they know what their stone will look like in everyday life that is fine too. My point is that people need to know what they are buying. Figuring out how to help people buy what they want (and not what you want) is the most impartial way, in my opinion to do things.

 

[risingsun]

Date: 7/23/2009 9:58:03 PM
Author: LtlFirecracker
Here is my take on the whole thing.

What got me on this forum was something that happened years prior. When I was 16, my mom bought me a pair of diamond studs that I picked out. I knew that diamonds had color grades and that was about it. When I took them into a jeweler to get new backs, I asked them about this black thing in the diamond. The jeweler told me it was something called an inclusion and that inclusions are part of diamonds, but that was a really bad one and that basically I got ripped off. It started to make me wonder. Why didn't I notice the inclusion in the jewelry store? Why didn't the sales person tell me? Years later, when I thought I was getting engaged (the relationship didn't work out) I went onto Tiffany's website, and was able to learn about diamonds, because it was written in a way that was easy to understand. I did a google search on Tiffany's found PS. Two years later when I was ready to get my diamond studs, I came back to this forum and haven't left.

What I was looking for was a way to know everything about the diamond before I bought it so I wouldn't be surprised. Sadly, with the state of the industry, I felt the only way to do that was to fully educate myself. I find I like higher clarity stones than most people on here, I know I am paying more, but I don't want the experience I had before where I looked at my diamond everyday and hated it.

I am mostly on CS, but what I try to do is educate people and let them make their own decision. Maybe that ring from the brand name store has a mark up. I would let the buyer know that, and if they are still set on a ring from that place, I would not suggest alternative places. Maybe they really want a big stone, and are willing to take a small eye visible inclusion. As long as they know what their stone will look like in everyday life that is fine too. My point is that people need to know what they are buying. Figuring out how to help people buy what they want (and not what you want) is the most impartial way, in my opinion to do things.

Well said, LtlFirecracker!! I think it is vital to provide education in order to help others make the best decision possible for themselves. We all have different priorities and that is as it should be. To withhold education due to one's own bias is, IMO, a bad business model. I believe that the majority of PSers try to help consumers find what will best meet that consumer's needs. The advice given by most of our vendors tends to support this approach. If a vendor lets his/her bias inform their way of reaching out to this community, it is disingenuous at best and disruptive at its worst.

 

[Gypsy]

Thank you RD.

Thought about this again... insomnia. Gotta love it. And you know it makes me fiesty.

Here's an additional thought (I'll make this one relatively short though). As regular posters who recommend vendors, WE have reputations too. How many times has someone thanked Ellen or Lorelei, or Storm when they've recieved their item?

I know when I've helped someone and they have thanked me it is such a wonderful feeling.

SO NO, I don't want the reverse of that to happen. I don't WANT someone to come on here (or some other board, or wherever) and say... GYPSY told me to work with THIS VENDOR, or LINKED ME TO THIS DIAMOND and it went horribly wrong, and the vendor was AWFUL about fixing it. SO next time GYPSY recommends something, GYPSY has that to contend with from her peers, and from her own conscience.

So I do stick to 'safe' choices when I recommend. By my definition of safe, and yes of course that includes vendors I've personally worked with and ones I would work with AND excludes ones I wouldn't work with. Because I am aware of the impact I can have ON THE CONSUMER. And it has NOTHING, to do with the finances of the vendor. Frankly, I don't consider ANY vendor's finances when I make a recommendation, nor do I think I should. It's about the consumer for me, who is looking for guidance from another consumer.

What I think about is how they will feel when they open that box. Or, since NO vendor is perfect, if something goes wrong, how the will be treated when they try to address the problem whatever it is.

My feeling TO ANY VENDOR that feels the recommendations on take 'rightful' business away from them and 'route' it to another... is this. LOOK TO YOUR OWN HOUSE FIRST, before trying to blame another business, or another expert on these boards, or a consumer on these boards. As I said before... there are many factors that go into a recommendation. FIRST among them is the vendor's goods, reputation and actions (and because this is the net, their websites, pic and scan abilites and so forth). Because NO ONE on here is just buying a hunk of carbon that sparkles. They are buying and engagement ring, a wedding band, a special gift for a birthday, an anniversary. Or something special for themselves because they want to reward themselves, or because they've skrimped and saved for it. And you know what? I want them to have the best experience they can have. Regardless of how it affects a vendor's bottom line. Cause, It's NOT ABOUT THE VENDOR. If it was we would alll be shills and this site a mockery.

ETA: I STINK at making things short, don't I?

Good at fiesty though.

 

[strmrdr]

Well said Gypsy.
It is all about the consumer and doing the best we can to insure they have a safe and happy experience and love what they bought when they get it!

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 7/24/2009 5:39:10 AM
Author: strmrdr
Well said Gypsy.
It is all about the consumer and doing the best we can to insure they have a safe and happy experience and love what they bought when they get it!

BIG Ditto!

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 7/24/2009 5:39:10 AM
Author: strmrdr
Well said Gypsy.
It is all about the consumer and doing the best we can to insure they have a safe and happy experience and love what they bought when they get it!

Thank you Storm and Lorelie. Your opinions mean a lot to me, sincerely.

NEED SLEEP. *sigh* Tired little dragon with shoe on her head over here.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 7/24/2009 5:43:46 AM
Author: Gypsy

Date: 7/24/2009 5:39:10 AM
Author: strmrdr
Well said Gypsy.
It is all about the consumer and doing the best we can to insure they have a safe and happy experience and love what they bought when they get it!

Thank you Storm and Lorelie. Your opinions mean a lot to me, sincerely.

NEED SLEEP. *sigh* Tired little dragon with shoe on her head over here.

LOL - you are still up???

 

[Gypsy]

Yeah. Lost my 'fiest' about an hour ago. Now I'm just dazed and confused, I tried typing out a reply to help someone with a setting design, and thankfully didn't hit submit before I re-read it. Made no freaking sense. Sometimes I see things in my head and can't translate to words. Get much worse ath 3 am when I'm drowsy but my brain is too wired to wind down. I'm just stressed about work stuff. I was actually PSing and working up until 1 am. It's end of quarter so I'm swimming in contracts. I realized at 1 am that I couldn't and SHOULDN'T be working anymore advising anyone of anything related to ANY contract. OKAY, take ten at shutting off laptop and sleeping. Goodnight, with any luck.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 7/24/2009 6:08:52 AM
Author: Gypsy
Yeah. Lost my ''fiest'' about an hour ago. Now I''m just dazed and confused, I tried typing out a reply to help someone with a setting design, and thankfully didn''t hit submit before I re-read it. Made no freaking sense. Sometimes I see things in my head and can''t translate to words. Get much worse ath 3 am when I''m drowsy but my brain is too wired to wind down. I''m just stressed about work stuff. I was actually PSing and working up until 1 am. It''s end of quarter so I''m swimming in contracts. I realized at 1 am that I couldn''t and SHOULDN''T be working anymore advising anyone of anything related to ANY contract. OKAY, take ten at shutting off laptop and sleeping. Goodnight, with any luck.

Night sweetheart!

 

[Regular Guy]

Good morning.

On the one hand, my thinking hasn''t evolved tremendously since yesterday, but on the other hand, maybe I have just enough spin to add something. In for a penny, in for a pound.

Bottom line...I''d advocate trying for a middle way.

Maybe it''s helpful to present sides.

Side one ends up being represented by yourself, Judah, possibly Dave and others.

This is a side of purity...and arguments going to it scream for transparency...and no matter which side, you could always be anxious about competency, because, gosh, regardless of what you even know, how many posts have you read recently, or today, do you have sufficient context, and to what extent are you cherry picking, zeroing in too arbitrarily on the post you choose to read, having your mindset be electively polluted by choices that are unnecessarily random. And, do you have anything enough of value to post in the first place, for g-d sake.

But...there is another side, possibly represented by sounds of Moh 10 and Gypsy (though less harshly than I will demonstrate).

There is a raw and rugged truth exhibited by a fellow who lives not far from me. He is Mayor for Life, Marion Barry, who might live by the motto: I seen my opportunities and I took em. The appeal to purity is sort of common sense, but possibly more brazen, common, and effective is the latter approach. We could appeal to conscience in position A, but thinking outside of the box, blowing past barriers such that you''ll not only think, but say the more outsize things, can more readily get the job done. Although Marion may get a cold shoulder for recently hiring his girl friend, is the difference between this, and nepotism (?) shown by Robert Kennedy in the fact that we like the latter better?

So, only this morning did it occur to me to push beyond these polarities, and consider briefly sports. Maybe Pricescope is a bit like fandom. I''m a bad one to write about that, because I don''t watch it much...except for taking my boys to the local little league this past summer (last games approaching!). Like sports, some people are able to engorge in stats of all kinds, and certainly we do that on Pricescope.

You talk about favoritism, and it''s ugliness. But, is it OK to recognize a rising star? A shocking thing was heard by me recently, and again. I''m a pretty big Obama fan. Nevermind that he was willing to call the Boston police stupid. Obama brazenly, willingly, names teams he likes. What''s that about? Shocking? But...also cool. Human. Natural. Does it have consequences of note? Not an unreasonable question. But...I note that Obama at least has made the call, and is satisfied with it enough to do it more than once.

Overall?

Date: 7/23/2009 6:43:43 PM
Author: Shopaholic

I think that what makes PS great is that everyone is really helpful and always mean well in the end, no matter what biases prevail at the time.

In the end, realizing this is not science, or fair necessarily, and it is with some measure unsatisfying as to its rigor, it is pretty much true. I"m here today, anyway.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 7/24/2009 5:41:40 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 7/24/2009 5:39:10 AM
Author: strmrdr

Well said Gypsy.

It is all about the consumer and doing the best we can to insure they have a safe and happy experience and love what they bought when they get it!

BIG Ditto!

BIG Thritto. Thank you Gypsy.

 

[denverappraiser]

Bias is a loaded word. ‘Preference’ is perhaps a better choice. Everyone is working from their own experience and no one has experience with every vendor or every stone. Is it bias for a consumer to report that they have has a happy experience with a particular vendor, lab, appraiser, setter, insurance company, shipping company, etc.? I suppose it is, but this is often the gestalt of the question being asked. The list of choices is enormous and what shoppers are looking for is assistance in narrowing down the choices based on the experiences of others. This does cause a problem for new or out of favor vendors and gives a fair amount of power to the folks who give out frequent advice in terms of the overall feel of the forum but when it’s stated for what it is and when it’s coming from consumers not the professionals I see very little trouble with it. A certain amount of discretion is called for and most of the regular gurus are pretty good about minding their manners. For example, when a poster comes on and asks about opinions on a particular stone or group of stones, I think it’s appropriate to discuss that particular stone without linking to their favorite alternative vendor. When they ask about experiences with a particular vendor (or appraiser, insurer, B&M store, et.al.), I think it’s appropriate to limit your discussion to that issue rather than to say “they’re icky, try these guys ...”, especially from folks who have no direct experience to recount.

The pros here are held to a different standard and they’re expressly forbidden to slam a competitors goods or services or to offer up their own alternatives, even when the offer is ''better''. This too is as it should be.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Gypsy]

Thank you Ellen, your opinion of course means a lot to me.

 

[jet2ks]

Gypsy & Neil, great posts!

 

[oldminer]

RD: I am responding to your following statment:

"For example: I have NO doubt that David Atlas designed his cut grade charts to aid consumers, the best way HE knows how.
However, the cut grades are opinions presented as facts."


I did create these charts to help the consumer and my local retailers for whom we made many diamond grading reports. A few of these retailers made extensive use of reports with these cut grades and successfully marketed "better" cut (in my system) diamonds to consumers who received beautiful diamonds. Several firms still use the AGA-CERT report in the Philadelphia region although I sold the company to my employee, Chris DiCamillo in Jan 08, well over a year ago and before the crash. We hardly saw it coming.

What we must disagree on is that the AGA Cut Class grades are by virtue of my expertise, "facts". In a courtroom, ONLY an expert can express an opinion and have it given the weight of "Facts". Opinions provided by laymen or those without credentials as experts are not allowed to be given in recorded testimony. I realize that my "facts" may not correspond 100% with the "facts" provided by other "experts", but they are provided with impartiality and without bias. You may have what you might consider better facts, but you have never once shared them here about what makes a diamond a beautiful and well fashioned stone. You, instead, offer the suggestion that you know, but you are going to keep it to yourself. It is really a nearly humorous position you have chosen. The expert who claims to know more than another expert, but when the game is played out and the cards are to be put on the table, you don't show your cards. How will anyone watching this play out know who has the better hand? Admittedly, there is no money in the pot, so it won't matter to me or to you, but those who read this thread really would like to know the basis of your frequent claims about diamonds cut outside the norm becoming orphans due to false facts being promoted by me and by many others. Show us what you got! We'd love to know more and everyone would like to see what you might offer. I have a very open mind about learning more. I'm not annoyed, but criticism without constructive advice seems rather empty.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 7/24/2009 2:06:55 PM
Author: oldminer
RD: I am responding to your following statment:

''For example: I have NO doubt that David Atlas designed his cut grade charts to aid consumers, the best way HE knows how.
However, the cut grades are opinions presented as facts.''


I did create these charts to help the consumer and my local retailers for whom we made many diamond grading reports. A few of these retailers made extensive use of reports with these cut grades and successfully marketed ''better'' cut (in my system) diamonds to consumers who received beautiful diamonds. Several firms still use the AGA-CERT report in the Philadelphia region although I sold the company to my employee, Chris DiCamillo in Jan 08, well over a year ago and before the crash. We hardly saw it coming.

What we must disagree on is that the AGA Cut Class grades are by virtue of my expertise, ''facts''. In a courtroom, ONLY an expert can express an opinion and have it given the weight of ''Facts''. Opinions provided by laymen or those without credentials as experts are not allowed to be given in recorded testimony. I realize that my ''facts'' may not correspond 100% with the ''facts'' provided by other ''experts'', but they are provided with impartiality and without bias. You may have what you might consider better facts, but you have never once shared them here about what makes a diamond a beautiful and well fashioned stone. You, instead, offer the suggestion that you know, but you are going to keep it to yourself. It is really a nearly humorous position you have chosen. The expert who claims to know more than another expert, but when the game is played out and the cards are to be put on the table, you don''t show your cards. How will anyone watching this play out know who has the better hand? Admittedly, there is no money in the pot, so it won''t matter to me or to you, but those who read this thread really would like to know the basis of your frequent claims about diamonds cut outside the norm becoming orphans due to false facts being promoted by me and by many others. Show us what you got! We''d love to know more and everyone would like to see what you might offer. I have a very open mind about learning more. I''m not annoyed, but criticism without constructive advice seems rather empty.

Outstanding post David. Thank you, for saying what needed to be said.

 

[Judah Gutwein]

In general however, I would respectfully suggest, that it isn't an accurate comparison to equate a posters need to maintain a 'reputation' on the net vs. a vendor/tradespersons need to do the same.

This kind of moral equivalence to promote the argument that a poster has as much at stake (and as nuch to lose) as any tradesperson posting to a public forum with respect to their need to be totally transparent, is kind of an oxymoron.

Vendors or tradespeople posting to these (or any) boards and existing on the net, have literally everything hanging out there. There is only one personality present. You know their actual names, their titles, contact info., history, and most importantly the way in which they make a living. Now when you add to the mix, the knowledge that a forum acts as an important conduit for tradespeople to offer help and advice (while promoting their services), it makes for an incredibly transparent glass house to live in! There is no anonymity and no room for a tradesperson on the internet to hide behind a facade. Essentially, what you see is what you get and it better be good if the tradesperson hopes to survive in this medium.

Conversely, an anonymous poster on the net has the luxury of being able to cultivate a new persona and one which can be completely unique vis a vis their real life personality.
They create an alias and operate in total anonymity from behind a keyboard. Their contributions do not impact on their personal lives, on their families, or on their livelihood. They can earn a living during the day without any fear of how their cultivated personality on the net affects their real lives.

They can hold forth on a variety of topics dispensing advice with aplomb and without any fear of consequential contradiction or reprecussion and with no concern as to how it may affect their personal lives and bottom li$ne

Having said that, I believe that one of the distinguishing characteristics of this particular community on the net, is indeed the increased transparency of the many posters and pro-sumers who have worked tirelessly to contribute in a most positive and meaningful way. Anonymous or not, pro-sumers have spent countless hours helping newbies and are singularly responsible for their subsequent happy purchases.

When Lorelei and Gypsy talk about the amazing feelings of pride and happiness (and subsequent feelings of responsibility) stemming from the knowledge that they have helped people with their momentous purchases, it speaks volumes about the atmosphere here.

My general point though, is to illustrate why there are quantifiable differences between posters and tradespeople, which should preclude a simple equivocation of their dual need for transparency on the net.

 

[bowral1]

Judah the reason we have to stay anonymous is because half of us are supposed to working not blogging . . . . ha ha only kidding.

Well actually I do need to get some work done today.

 

[Black Jade]

I believe most on Pricescope try to stay impartial.

It is true, however, that there is a certain ''party line''. I doubt it is deliberately done and I don''t think it''s harmful. In fact, the opposite--the advice that I have gotten here and the people pouring out their expertise, taking a lot of time has really and truly helped me. Last year was a big buying year for me with jewelry--25th anniversary and 51st birthday (actually late 50th birthday) presents and I got much nice things than I would have been able to get without this board.

I have however, definitely observed certain things--there are three, or at most four vendors who are recommended something like 90% of the time (to the point that I was on this board six months before I realized, through beginning to use the search engine, that there are actually dozens of PS vendors.) If a new-comer lists specs that they are thinking of, they are pretty much ALWAYS told to lower the color and the clarity in favor of gettings a larger size. Cut is king here, which is good, because most people in IRL have never heard of cut and it''s effect on a diamond, but questioners are usually steered towards not just ideal, but super-ideal stones. I am not saying that any of this is either good or bad. I am just saying that if you sit and read a lot of the posts that have been written over a large amount of time, that is what you will see, certain trends. And then the thing is, you have to decide to be an intelligent reader/consumer and decide what parts of the advice are good for YOU. In my case, I didn''t necessarily want the biggest size possible when I made my purchases, so I ignored some of that advice. I went with one of the vendors that is always recommended when I made one purchase and found that yes, they were indeed great--I could see why people who had bought from them would tout them to others. But the other time, I went with another vendor. This vendor doesn''t give you the Ideal-scope and other images that ''prosumers'' on Pricescope like to have when they recommend stones (and I''m not knocking them for doing this; if you are making recommendations to people who are spending $$$$, it is responsible to have as much information as possible about the diamond). However, I felt I would be happy with them (and knew I was protected by a great return policy), and I had a good experience with them.

I guess what I''m saying, in a long-winded kind of way, that this board is a great resource, the information is there for you, the recommendations are there, but you still have your responsibility as a consumer to decide what you like, and you can still use the PS search engine, and also look at the purchases that people have completed and been happy with (many of them without ever asking advice on the forum), you can go around to B & Ms after reading the forums and check YOUR tolerances (what color and what clarity YOU like)--People are going to have certain biases (and sometimes there are good reasons for those biases and sometimes not) but you can read the opinions and work either with them, or around them. There is a wealth of information here and you can use it how YOU like.

 

[tallchickbarbara]

Date: 7/23/2009 2:53:09 PM
Author: oldminer
I would make the observation that bias arises from opinions that the advice giver cannot detach themselves from. One can hold strong opinions, yet still give unbiased and valid advice, but not everyone can accomplish such detachment.

Sometimes the adviser has an incorrect basis of information which they unfortunately believe to be correct when it is, in fact, not based on correct facts. This isn''t the fault of bias, but of lack of knowledge.

We have both here on Pricescope and sometimes these two problematic situations intermingle within a single contributor''s comments or within an overall thread with many participants. I often attempt to untangle such knots of good and bad advice for consumers with little hope of changing the committed views of knuckleheads, those who advise without sufficient knowledge, or those who apparently are simply quite biased. It makes for good reading and better educated consumers. Besides, consumers then can see the difficulties the diamond and jewelry trade have in proper communication. They go away better armed to be safe and smart buyers. This is not a problem, but a benefit of an open forum such as Pricescope.

Much more good advice happens here than bad. Often the bad advice creates tremendously involved and interesting threads which occasionally clear the air on a particular subject, too. I give consumers enough credit that they can well understand the nature of the possibly biased advice sellers may make to encourage their style of product over another. It is a shame that many really lovely diamonds are out there which just don''t compete as well in the blind buying atmosphere of the Internet. The safer stones tend to win out over the ones which might be selected in-person.

If I was making a purchase, I would do my selecting of any blind item in the safest manner I could if I was commited to an Internet transaction. By choosing a well established brand, a cut style that the vast majority approved of, a ''safe'' color and clarity range. It all makes sense and really is not bias, but the way the Internet has altered the selection process. No doubt, we will see more growth in the Internet style of making such selections and many diamonds will be recut to meet standards for no reason better than getting each diamond sold. All in all, that''s a pretty good reason eventhough we as dealers-experts understand the actual lack of need for such drastic steps. What the consumer wants, the consumer will get.

Brilliant point, David. It''s something that we have had to address in the past, but luckily none of the Pricescope regulars seem to be unreasonable people and in at least one of the cases where UD was concerned, when the facts were brought forth the ''prosumer'' apologized for the incorrect statement. Overall, this community is a tight one, but an open minded one in the same. Biased or not, positive or not, now that it exists, I don''t believe any PS vendor will live without it.
Judah - this was a great read. Thank you so much for touching on this topic and opening dialogue about it.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Just my quick little observation. . .for years, when I read RT I felt that people were parroting each other. One person would state that such-and-such company provided the best information about their diamonds and that they were of the highest quality, and from that many others (who never actually purchased from that company) were then suggesting that same business. I felt myself falling into that habit, as well, and decided not to post recommendations for any company except the one I have purchased from. IMO, that doesn't make me bias, but a person experienced with that company. As a person who purchased three diamonds from that company, why would I recommend a place I've never engaged in business with?

I do know that other vendors here (as seen in the SMTR forum) appear to have fabulous stones, craftsmanship, etc., and hopefully at some point in the future, I can purchase from one or another of them, but untill then, it's wrong, IMO, for me to randomly suggest any old vendor. Now, if a person posts a diamond from a vendor I don't know, yet the stone looks great, I will say so!

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 7/24/2009 2:54:23 PM
Author: Judah Gutwein
In general however, I would respectfully suggest, that it isn''t an accurate comparison to equate a posters need to maintain a ''reputation'' on the net vs. a vendor/tradespersons need to do the same.


This kind of moral equivalence to promote the argument that a poster has as much at stake (and as nuch to lose) as any tradesperson posting to a public forum with respect to their need to be totally transparent, is kind of an oxymoron.


Vendors or tradespeople posting to these (or any) boards and existing on the net, have literally everything hanging out there. There is only one personality present. You know their actual names, their titles, contact info., history, and most importantly the way in which they make a living. Now when you add to the mix, the knowledge that a forum acts as an important conduit for tradespeople to offer help and advice (while promoting their services), it makes for an incredibly transparent glass house to live in! There is no anonymity and no room for a tradesperson on the internet to hide behind a facade. Essentially, what you see is what you get and it better be good if the tradesperson hopes to survive in this medium.


Conversely, an anonymous poster on the net has the luxury of being able to cultivate a new persona and one which can be completely unique vis a vis their real life personality.

They create an alias and operate in total anonymity from behind a keyboard. Their contributions do not impact on their personal lives, on their families, or on their livelihood. They can earn a living during the day without any fear of how their cultivated personality on the net affects their real lives.


They can hold forth on a variety of topics dispensing advice with aplomb and without any fear of consequential contradiction or reprecussion and with no concern as to how it may affect their personal lives and bottom li$ne


Having said that, I believe that one of the distinguishing characteristics of this particular community on the net, is indeed the increased transparency of the many posters and pro-sumers who have worked tirelessly to contribute in a most positive and meaningful way. Anonymous or not, pro-sumers have spent countless hours helping newbies and are singularly responsible for their subsequent happy purchases.


When Lorelei and Gypsy talk about the amazing feelings of pride and happiness (and subsequent feelings of responsibility) stemming from the knowledge that they have helped people with their momentous purchases, it speaks volumes about the atmosphere here.


My general point though, is to illustrate why there are quantifiable differences between posters and tradespeople, which should preclude a simple equivocation of their dual need for transparency on the net.

Some things are worth far more than money.
Honestly it is clear that you do not totally get what motivates the pro-sumers here.
In the second part of your post you get close but you missed the intensity of feeling they have for what they do.
That intensity is higher than any but the most dedicated vendors who help a lot and it is just as high as theirs.


When a vendor whines they arent getting recommended enough I tell them it is very transparent what they have to do to get recommended more, so step up.
There is no super secret formula it is 100% wide open for anyone willing to put the work into it.
There is even a journal article on how to do it that covers most of it and a little reading will give one the rest of the information.
It will not be overnight and your reputation in the trade or years in the trade has little or nothing to do with it.
That is a bitter pill for many in the trade to swallow but it is the way it is and the way it should be.

 

[Gypsy]

Juddah,

I have to laugh, cause at times I wonder if you are aware of how much you seem to imply that the vendors are somehow victims, laying out everything on the line... thier names, addresses... etc, etc, etc... as if someone put a gun to their heads and told them they HAVE to come on PS and participate. And as if they are not furthering their own business interests, and lining their pockets, by doing so.

Yes, there is a HUGE difference in tradespeople and consumers. One of them is that we don't get any benefit in terms of financial recompense for being here. So no... we don't put our real names, our addresses and life's details out here. And yes, we do therefore deserve protection.

When you consider whether THIS thread itself as helped your company in the eyes of the consumers and prosumers who post on here and offer recommendations, I would ask you to review your comments below, and see if it is indeed the case that we consumers are just biased in a vacuum... or whether, as I stated earlier, perhaps it is the companies actions (hence the "Look to your own house" advice I gave earlier), that prompt what you call our "dangerous bias".... perhaps WE aren't the danger Juddah. Sometimes the vendor should quit while they are ahead, or maybe re-read their post to see how it will impact other's impressions of them. Particular the consumer's and Prosumers, who you have implied are 'free" to be (IN YOUR OWN WORDS BELOW) reckless, capricious, irresponsible. Yet, as you claim "WE" (reckless, capricious, irresponsible AND protected by annonimity to boot!) hold the 'fate' of thousands of dollars in in "our hands". The vendor needs to be responsible too, both in word and deed. Are you above reproach and can you honestly not see that by your insinuates you may not have elevated your company's reputations in our eyes, but instead... done it harm and contributed to the 'bias' that you claim exists?

"Can it be said that these types of posters who direct traffic to the tune of thousands of dollars are unbiased because they are not actually selling something? Of course not. In fact, an argument can be made that these posters are more dangerously biased, since they have the ability to mask their bias in the guise of an unbiased contributor....

When distinctions in diamond quality warrants the promotion of one vendor over another, this promotion cannot be considered bias. Moreover, when feedback is requested regarding the many reputable vendors who have earned their accolades, it is not considered bias for posters to offer up those accolades. However, this is not always the case."

And of course these comments, which I have directly addressed in this post:

"Vendors or tradespeople posting to these (or any) boards and existing on the net, have literally everything hanging out there. There is only one personality present. You know their actual names, their titles, contact info., history, and most importantly the way in which they make a living. Now when you add to the mix, the knowledge that a forum acts as an important conduit for tradespeople to offer help and advice (while promoting their services), it makes for an incredibly transparent glass house to live in! There is no anonymity and no room for a tradesperson on the internet to hide behind a facade. Essentially, what you see is what you get and it better be good if the tradesperson hopes to survive in this medium.

Conversely, an anonymous poster on the net has the luxury of being able to cultivate a new persona and one which can be completely unique vis a vis their real life personality.
They create an alias and operate in total anonymity from behind a keyboard. Their contributions do not impact on their personal lives, on their families, or on their livelihood. They can earn a living during the day without any fear of how their cultivated personality on the net affects their real lives.

They can hold forth on a variety of topics dispensing advice with aplomb and without any fear of consequential contradiction or reprecussion and with no concern as to how it may affect their personal lives and bottom li$ne."

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 7/24/2009 5:00:06 PM
Author: strmrdr


Some things are worth far more than money.
Honestly it is clear that you do not totally get what motivates the pro-sumers here.
In the second part of your post you get close but you missed the intensity of feeling they have for what they do.
That intensity is higher than any but the most dedicated vendors who help a lot and it is just as high as theirs.


When a vendor whines they arent getting recommended enough I tell them it is very transparent what they have to do to get recommended more, so step up.
There is no super secret formula it is 100% wide open for anyone willing to put the work into it.
There is even a journal article on how to do it that covers most of it and a little reading will give one the rest of the information.
It will not be overnight and your reputation in the trade or years in the trade has little or nothing to do with it.
That is a bitter pill for many in the trade to swallow but it is the way it is and the way it should be.

HUGE ENORMOUS DITTO.

 

[Moh 10]

Whiteflash and GOG and a couple others were here early and posting often.
People bought from them and started to recommend them.
Which begat more testimonies, which begat more sales.
Which begat even more testimonies, which begat even more sales.

People loved John Pollard at Whiteflash and his name brings sales to HPD.
People loved the ACAs and now Brian Gavin leaving WF brings sales to BGD because we all knew him as the brain behind the ACA.

Now vendors newer to PS want the same loyalty and referrals.

This really is a chicken and egg problem.
Isn't there a limit to the number of vendors who can get recommended?
How can we be familiar with, or have purchased from 10 or 20 vendors?
Diamonds are expensive.

But I'll tell you, if I was a diamond vendor I'd be sooooooo jealous of the main PS vendors (and their large loyal unpaid crew which literally do their selling for them) and I'd be on this forum doing anything I could to get some eyeballs looking my way.

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 7/24/2009 5:23:32 PM
Author: Moh 10
Whiteflash and GOG and a couple others were here early and posting often.
People bought from them and started to recommend them.
Which begat more testimonies, which begat more sales.
Which begat even more testimonies, which begat even more sales.

People loved John Pollard at Whiteflash and his name brings sales to HPD.
People loved the ACAs and now Brian Gavin leaving WF brings sales to BGD because we all knew him as the brain behind the ACA.

Now vendors newer to PS want the same loyalty and referrals.

This really is a chicken and egg problem.
Isn't there a limit to the number of vendors who can get recommended?
How can we be familiar with, or have purchased from 10 or 20 vendors?
Diamonds are expensive.

But I'll tell you, if I was a diamond vendor I'd be sooooooo jealous of the main PS vendors (and the way a large loyal unpaid crew literally do their selling for them) and I'd be on this forum doing anything I could to get some eyeballs looking my way.

Yes, but unlike in some industries Moh, I'm sure you agree, on PS there is such a thing as bad press. And a vendor needs to consider whether insuniating things about the consumers and proconsumers on here is the way they want to get those 'eyeballs.' Or maybe they should just do their best to provide the BEST service, website, and product they can, keep a low profile and let their customer testimonials speak for them. Lest they speak unwisely, and offend where they sought to 'enlighten'... or whatever it was they were trying to do.

I completely agree with you MOH. And in particular, I find it funny that vendor's were banned under the previous PS Admin's reign for violating polcies on PS want this loyalty, when the new Admins have been so generous as to offer them a second chance.

 

[risingsun]

Date: 7/24/2009 5:36:12 PM
Author: Gypsy

Date: 7/24/2009 5:23:32 PM
Author: Moh 10
Whiteflash and GOG and a couple others were here early and posting often.
People bought from them and started to recommend them.
Which begat more testimonies, which begat more sales.
Which begat even more testimonies, which begat even more sales.

People loved John Pollard at Whiteflash and his name brings sales to HPD.
People loved the ACAs and now Brian Gavin leaving WF brings sales to BGD because we all knew him as the brain behind the ACA.

Now vendors newer to PS want the same loyalty and referrals.

This really is a chicken and egg problem.
Isn't there a limit to the number of vendors who can get recommended?
How can we be familiar with, or have purchased from 10 or 20 vendors?
Diamonds are expensive.

But I'll tell you, if I was a diamond vendor I'd be sooooooo jealous of the main PS vendors (and the way a large loyal unpaid crew literally do their selling for them) and I'd be on this forum doing anything I could to get some eyeballs looking my way.

Yes, but unlike in some industries Moh, I'm sure you agree, on PS there is such a thing as bad press. And a vendor needs to consider whether insuniating things about the consumers and proconsumers on here is the way they want to get those 'eyeballs.' Or maybe they should just do their best to provide the BEST service, website, and product they can, keep a low profile and let their customer testimonials speak for them. Lest they speak unwisely, and offend where they sought to 'enlighten'... or whatever it was they were trying to do.

I completely agree with you MOH. And in particular, I find it funny that were banned under the previous PS Admin's reign for violating polcies on PS want this loyalty, when the new Admins have been so generous as to offer them a second chance.

Gypsy~did you mean to say ...I find it funny that "vendors" that were banned...? I just want to make sure that I am reading this correctly. I also want you to know that I support your posts in this thread!!

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 7/24/2009 5:40:54 PM
Author: risingsun

Date: 7/24/2009 5:36:12 PM
Author: Gypsy

Date: 7/24/2009 5:23:32 PM
Author: Moh 10
Whiteflash and GOG and a couple others were here early and posting often.
People bought from them and started to recommend them.
Which begat more testimonies, which begat more sales.
Which begat even more testimonies, which begat even more sales.

People loved John Pollard at Whiteflash and his name brings sales to HPD.
People loved the ACAs and now Brian Gavin leaving WF brings sales to BGD because we all knew him as the brain behind the ACA.

Now vendors newer to PS want the same loyalty and referrals.

This really is a chicken and egg problem.
Isn't there a limit to the number of vendors who can get recommended?
How can we be familiar with, or have purchased from 10 or 20 vendors?
Diamonds are expensive.

But I'll tell you, if I was a diamond vendor I'd be sooooooo jealous of the main PS vendors (and the way a large loyal unpaid crew literally do their selling for them) and I'd be on this forum doing anything I could to get some eyeballs looking my way.

Yes, but unlike in some industries Moh, I'm sure you agree, on PS there is such a thing as bad press. And a vendor needs to consider whether insuniating things about the consumers and proconsumers on here is the way they want to get those 'eyeballs.' Or maybe they should just do their best to provide the BEST service, website, and product they can, keep a low profile and let their customer testimonials speak for them. Lest they speak unwisely, and offend where they sought to 'enlighten'... or whatever it was they were trying to do.

I completely agree with you MOH. And in particular, I find it funny that were banned under the previous PS Admin's reign for violating polcies on PS want this loyalty, when the new Admins have been so generous as to offer them a second chance.

Gypsy~did you mean to say ...I find it funny that 'vendors' who were banned...? I just want to make sure that I am reading this correctly. I also want you to know that I support your posts in this thread!!

YUP! I just editted it RS. I'm slow on the uptake today.

And thank you very much honey, for your kind support.

 

[Moh 10]

Date: 7/24/2009 5:36:12 PM
Author: Gypsy

Yes, but unlike in some industries Moh, I'm sure you agree, on PS there is such a thing as bad press. And a vendor needs to consider whether insuniating things about the consumers and proconsumers on here is the way they want to get those 'eyeballs.' Or maybe they should just do their best to provide the BEST service, website, and product they can, keep a low profile and let their customer testimonials speak for them. Lest they speak unwisely, and offend where they sought to 'enlighten'... or whatever it was they were trying to do.


I completely agree with you MOH. And in particular, I find it funny that were banned under the previous PS Admin's reign for violating polcies on PS want this loyalty, when the new Admins have been so generous as to offer them a second chance.

Absolutely.
Some vendors really do shoot themselves in the foot here.
It is sad at first but when they keep doing it it can become comical.

Mr. "Diamonds That Glow With Magical Inner Light" has done his business enormous harm by posting his absurd anti-cut-education tirades here.

It is astonishing, he really seems oblivious.