A Discussion On Bias

[Judah Gutwein]

Friends,

I figured I'd start a thread as it relates to the concern of 'bias' which is sometimes highlighted here whether directly or indirectly, to favor or cast aspersions upon certain posters, whether they be vendors, tradespeople, or contributors

All types of posters to these boards have much to contribute. The newbies - enthusiasts - pro-sumers - tradespeople and vendors, all contribute positively to the amazing atmosphere here. However, the potential for 'bias' is not limited to any one type of poster.

Vendors and tradespeople have an obvious potential for bias, since they are engaged in the retail sale of their diamonds, jewelry and services. However, a biased vendor or tradesperson not offering sound advice on these boards has a very finite and short lived lifespan here. Tradespeople on these boards are clearly delineated by their titles and signatures and so everybody knows they are selling something. This distinction is positive, since it marks them as a potentially biased contributor and forces them to articulate and dispense unbiased and expert advice and information if they are to maintain any longevity here. Therefore, the fact that there is a potential for bias on the part of a seller/tradesperson, does not diminish his ability to offer invaluable advice to the consumers who frequent these boards and who are apt to purchase anywhere. In fact, one can make an argument that by virtue of posting helpful, impartial and expert advice, a vendor/tradesperson is indirectly engaging in a healthy form of self promotion!

Non vendor/tradesperson posters and pro-sumers can be absolutely biased too. Many posters and pro-sumers here have started their careers as newbies and have actually made a purchase with a specific vendor, or have developed a liking for a specific vendor. It is routine for certain of these posters to not so subtlety promote and push their own vendor/agenda by steering newbies to their preferred vendor(s). In fact, in certain instances, a newbie will ask for advice on a specific diamond from a specific vendor, only to be steered away by a poster/pro-sumer to a different diamond by the vendor favorite of their own choice. In these instances, we are talking about traffic which may be perceived as directed or re-directed to the vendor of choice (and at the expense of the other), which can result in a significant loss of revenue for the vendor not on the agenda.

Can it be said that these types of posters who direct traffic to the tune of thousands of dollars are unbiased because they are not actually selling something? Of course not. In fact, an argument can be made that these posters are more dangerously biased, since they have the ability to mask their bias in the guise of an unbiased contributor....

When distinctions in diamond quality warrants the promotion of one vendor over another, this promotion cannot be considered bias. Moreover, when feedback is requested regarding the many reputable vendors who have earned their accolades, it is not considered bias for posters to offer up those accolades. However, this is not always the case.

In addition, the term 'bias' doesn't have to be limited to the specific promotion of a vendor or product. Sometimes the advice (itself) dispensed by posters or unscrupulous vendors, is biased in its erroneous and inaccurate content which will often serve to dismiss perfectly beautiful and viable diamond candidates from consideration by the customer, or promote diamonds not worthy of consideration at all.

Your Thoughts?

 

[Lorelei]

Hi Judah!

I do see what you are saying, after all anyone can sign up here and offer advice - it isn't easy to do it well and to also be unbiased and to try to treat each poster as an individual and their preferences. I do the best I can to be as unbiased as possible as I believe MANY of the vendors ( including you Judah!) have a great service and great diamonds on offer - as I said a while ago when asked whom to buy from I said to me if depends on what I am looking for and who has it at that particular time I am ready to purchase. Also with the tools I have regarding vendor experience, knowledge of their policies and goods, I try to find the best fit in each case according to what a new poster wants. Also with advice offered the prosumers ( myself included), must bear in mind that for the most part we are not experts, some have not even seen many diamonds and most of their knowledge is built on images and numbers, it is easy to forget the tiny little objects we are actually referring to! As I have said before it isn't an easy path for the prosumer to walk, but I think it is a good thing to discuss this every so often and from my POV the PS prosumer has a responsibility to try to be ' professional' in all their dealings even though this is done as a hobby and to try to remain neutral where possible when advising. Yes I have also seen some perfectly lovely diamonds rejected, maybe by those who are scared to be on the side of the non perfect....But we do the best we can day to day, I know the veteran prosumers certainly do, the ones who have been here for years and they are the ones who set the standards, they do an excellent job and have helped in my opinion to make RT the great resource it is! Trying to avoid bias and " fanism" and assumptions can only be a good thing in order to help the new poster purchasers.

 

[Todd Gray]

Date: 7/23/2009 2:08:47 PM
Author:Judah Gutwein
However, a biased vendor or tradesperson not offering sound advice on these boards has a very finite and short lived lifespan here.

I think that this sentence best sums up the reality, if a vendor is offering advice / opinions which are not "sound advice" based on fact in the best interest of the consumer, they are quickly "schooled" publicly on the forum.

I also think that the average consumer here on PS is intelligent to know when a vendor is simply trying to sell their goods and steer traffic to their web site. It is not difficult to read between the lines of such posts...

Likewise I believe that most consumers can also easily detect when another ''consumer'' is pushing them and other people to buy from a specific vendor instead of offering options from a few different vendors when making recommendations of specific diamonds or other jewelry items. I believe that the forum admin does a pretty good job of detecting such patterns of recommendation by various forum members and putting a stop to it. At least I don''t feel like other vendors diamonds are being recommended any more often than our own or vice versa, but I also can''t say that I spend a lot of time thinking about it.

Interesting post Judah, I''m not sure whether a forum can ever be ''unbiased'' since everybody is entitled to their opinion, heck, I''m biased about the movie I saw last week, the dinner I ate last night, the weather outside... As will be each person who reads / posts to the forum about whatever they are passionate about.

 

[Regular Guy]

Hey, Judah, welcome.

I''ve read through your piece once now, and now am glad Lorelei broke the ice. I''m going for a walk, and to take lunch, but I''ll be brief and share first thoughts. Because, I think your post made me think big...and I think that was your intention...for all of us to think big. If you see my bio in who''s who, you''ll understand my first instinct, in big questions, is to turn to some of the training I''ve received in my spiritual heritages...and I''d rather this post not get pulled because of me.

Briefly, though, in some spiritual traditions, "symbol," and reality are the same thing. In a way, this is sort of like saying, I think, what they say about "non-verbal communications," that 90% of the communications, when done in person, are non verbal.

Everything we do matters. Each of us.

That said...continuing my reputation of being obscure...I''ll re-read, and then come back later. Maybe I''ll have more to say, will be more self reflective, or will clarify. But, that''s a start.

Very best of wishes,

 

[Moh 10]

Sure, I am biased.
Based on years of reading PS and several transactions I prefer certain PS vendors over others.
I prefer a certain vendor for rounds and a certain other for asschers, if a friend asks where to get a princess I'll recommend a third.

Am required to sanitize my posts of my preferences?
If there is something a vendor does that I do not agree with, am I to keep that to myself?

I thought sunlight was the best disinfectant.
I think that limiting speech here is a disservice.
Anyone is free to respond to anything written here.

 

[suchende]

I am not sure that the board, on the whole, has a bias, because there is such a diversity of opinions. There are people who love high color and clarity, still others who are horrified by non-eye-clean diamonds or any stone with a "tint." Some people want every piece to come in a blue box, others love ebay and the secondary market.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 7/23/2009 2:44:15 PM
Author: Regular Guy
Hey, Judah, welcome.

I''ve read through your piece once now, and now am glad Lorelei broke the ice. I''m going for a walk, and to take lunch, but I''ll be brief and share first thoughts. Because, I think your post made me think big...and I think that was your intention...for all of us to think big. If you see my bio in who''s who, you''ll understand my first instinct, in big questions, is to turn to some of the training I''ve received in my spiritual heritages...and I''d rather this post not get pulled because of me.

Briefly, though, in some spiritual traditions, ''symbol,'' and reality are the same thing. In a way, this is sort of like saying, I think, what they say about ''non-verbal communications,'' that 90% of the communications, when done in person, are non verbal.

Everything we do matters. Each of us.

That said...continuing my reputation of being obscure...I''ll re-read, and then come back later. Maybe I''ll have more to say, will be more self reflective, or will clarify. But, that''s a start.

Very best of wishes,

 

[oldminer]

I would make the observation that bias arises from opinions that the advice giver cannot detach themselves from. One can hold strong opinions, yet still give unbiased and valid advice, but not everyone can accomplish such detachment.

Sometimes the adviser has an incorrect basis of information which they unfortunately believe to be correct when it is, in fact, not based on correct facts. This isn't the fault of bias, but of lack of knowledge.

We have both here on Pricescope and sometimes these two problematic situations intermingle within a single contributor's comments or within an overall thread with many participants. I often attempt to untangle such knots of good and bad advice for consumers with little hope of changing the committed views of knuckleheads, those who advise without sufficient knowledge, or those who apparently are simply quite biased. It makes for good reading and better educated consumers. Besides, consumers then can see the difficulties the diamond and jewelry trade have in proper communication. They go away better armed to be safe and smart buyers. This is not a problem, but a benefit of an open forum such as Pricescope.

Much more good advice happens here than bad. Often the bad advice creates tremendously involved and interesting threads which occasionally clear the air on a particular subject, too. I give consumers enough credit that they can well understand the nature of the possibly biased advice sellers may make to encourage their style of product over another. It is a shame that many really lovely diamonds are out there which just don't compete as well in the blind buying atmosphere of the Internet. The safer stones tend to win out over the ones which might be selected in-person.

If I was making a purchase, I would do my selecting of any blind item in the safest manner I could if I was commited to an Internet transaction. By choosing a well established brand, a cut style that the vast majority approved of, a "safe" color and clarity range. It all makes sense and really is not bias, but the way the Internet has altered the selection process. No doubt, we will see more growth in the Internet style of making such selections and many diamonds will be recut to meet standards for no reason better than getting each diamond sold. All in all, that's a pretty good reason eventhough we as dealers-experts understand the actual lack of need for such drastic steps. What the consumer wants, the consumer will get.

 

[Sam82]

As a newbie, I've noticed two things:

1. People with higher budgets get more reccommendations and help. Now this is probably due to the fact that those of us with smaller budgets find that there is less inventory that meets all of our criteria. So, I'm not complaining, just observing.

2. There are definately some vendors that are preferred here (at least from what I have seen). Vendors that offer more info seem to be reccommended more than vendors who do not. However, I can understand the reason for this. The more info that the consumer has, the easier it is to make a choice.

 

[bowral1]

I liked to commit on this post because this is something that I have been wondering as well . . . . .

I too have noticed on quite a few occasions that PS¡¦ers have tried to steer consumers away from certain vendors . . . especially if the vendors weren¡¦t a ¡§pricescope vendor¡¨ My boyfriend an I purchased my ring from Excel and had nothing but the best service along with a gorgeous diamond ring. I haven¡¦t posted it yet because he hasn¡¦t proposed yet . The review is written and ready to go . . .

On those few occasions when consumer found a ring that they wanted and they said that they wanted to purchase it from Excel I noticed the PS¡¦ers tried to suggest other vendors and yes in essence steer them away from Excel.

I didn¡¦t start posting here until I had already determined I was going with Excel. I simply lurked . . . However, after we purchased the ring (and hadn¡¦t received it in the mail) I did find myself thinking ¡§should I have gone with another vendor? . . . Why do the PS¡¦ers try and promote certain vendors?¡¨ I figured it was because they were ¡§approved vendors¡¨. So then I was asking myself ¡§What¡¦s wrong with Excel what do PS¡¦ers have against them?¡¨ If I had posted on PS from the beginning of the ring buying stage . . . I think (actually I am almost certain) I would have been swayed to not go with Excel. This is simply because of the praise that is sang by the PS¡¦ers of the ¡§approved vendors¡¨.

I have SO GLAD I WENT WITH EXCEL. The ring is beautiful the diamond is breathtaking. We got a good deal, according the appraiser. Of course my doubts were BEFORE I saw the ring ļ

I wanted to tell my story because received a great ring and good treatment from Excel and since I have become more involved on this site I have seen biases for other vendors. Is it right? Is it wrong? Is it just good marketing on their part? I don¡¦t really know the all the answers I just wanted to share my story. I am glad that I didn¡¦t post on here asking about Excel because I am pretty sure I would have changed my mind and went with another vendor. Please remember there are biases and there are prejudices. The is a difference.

 

[bowral1]

sorry about the formatting . . .

 

[stone-cold11]

One thing with Excel is for a while, there is not way to search their database for stone, some problem with their search engines and only until recently is the stone''s grading report re-linked with the stone. Before this, they have AGS0 princess and their Supercert stone online too, but pull them offline, so nothing to recommend on except to tell people to work with Excel if they really wanted to work with Excel.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 7/23/2009 2:59:21 PM
Author: Sam82
As a newbie, I''ve noticed two things:

1. People with higher budgets get more reccommendations and help. Now this is probably due to the fact that those of us with smaller budgets find that there is less inventory that meets all of our criteria. So, I''m not complaining, just observing.

2. There are definately some vendors that are preferred here (at least from what I have seen). Vendors that offer more info seem to be reccommended more than vendors who do not. However, I can understand the reason for this. The more info that the consumer has, the easier it is to make a choice.

Hi Sam!

I think it is a case of sometimes there are not so many options with smaller budgets, I know I and the other veteran PSers treat all new posters with the same consideration regardless of budget and those on smaller budgets are of equal importance to us! So I would say to anyone with a smaller budget please go ahead and ask if you would like any help or diamond suggestions as we do value everyone regardless of how much they have to spend!

Thanks for bringing this up Sam.

 

[bowral1]

That’s good constructive feedback Stone Cold, and answers some of my questions about the topic.

 

[Lorelei]

bowral, Excel are a well regarded vendor here, also if you do a search you will see there are many happy customers of theirs, they are a vendor I wouldn't hesitate to work with and Judah has always been a great ambassador for his company here.

 

[strmrdr]

Most people use the PS search engine when recommending diamonds.
A vendor who isn''t in there wont get many recommendations.
Those in the search by cut get even more because it is easy to find diamonds with extra information and in-house diamonds.

Unless I am searching for a diamond to have called in I won''t post a link to any diamond that does not have at least an actual picture online and ASET/IS available.
Every time a pro-sumer recomends a diamond they put their reputation on the line and the smart ones refuse to do so without adequate information.
Pro-sumers also won''t post a link to vendors site that they wouldn''t buy from.
That will vary from person to person.

The most recommended vendors have spent years earning it.
The can lose it tomorrow so they are very careful to keep the trust that PS consumers place in them by living up to the reputation they have earned.
That creates a safety factor for everyone.

 

[jet2ks]

Date: 7/23/2009 2:53:09 PM
Author: oldminer
I would make the observation that bias arises from opinions that the advice giver cannot detach themselves from. One can hold strong opinions, yet still give unbiased and valid advice, but not everyone can accomplish such detachment.

Sometimes the adviser has an incorrect basis of information which they unfortunately believe to be correct when it is, in fact, not based on correct facts. This isn't the fault of bias, but of lack of knowledge.

We have both here on Pricescope and sometimes these two problematic situations intermingle within a single contributor's comments or within an overall thread with many participants. I often attempt to untangle such knots of good and bad advice for consumers with little hope of changing the committed views of knuckleheads, those who advise without sufficient knowledge, or those who apparently are simply quite biased. It makes for good reading and better educated consumers. Besides, consumers then can see the difficulties the diamond and jewelry trade have in proper communication. They go away better armed to be safe and smart buyers. This is not a problem, but a benefit of an open forum such as Pricescope.

Much more good advice happens here than bad. Often the bad advice creates tremendously involved and interesting threads which occasionally clear the air on a particular subject, too. I give consumers enough credit that they can well understand the nature of the possibly biased advice sellers may make to encourage their style of product over another. It is a shame that many really lovely diamonds are out there which just don't compete as well in the blind buying atmosphere of the Internet. The safer stones tend to win out over the ones which might be selected in-person.

If I was making a purchase, I would do my selecting of any blind item in the safest manner I could if I was commited to an Internet transaction. By choosing a well established brand, a cut style that the vast majority approved of, a 'safe' color and clarity range. It all makes sense and really is not bias, but the way the Internet has altered the selection process. No doubt, we will see more growth in the Internet style of making such selections and many diamonds will be recut to meet standards for no reason better than getting each diamond sold. All in all, that's a pretty good reason eventhough we as dealers-experts understand the actual lack of need for such drastic steps. What the consumer wants, the consumer will get.

Excellent points, David. I will freely admit that some beautiful stones get rejected because PS members cannot physically examine the stones, but when someone asks for advice, we are going to steer them toward a stone that has a 95% liklihood of being a beautiful diamond rather than one that has a 15% chance, even if the second may actually be more beautiful if we could examine them in person.

It is great that you started this thread, Judah. As Lorelei points out, it is good to have a discussion about this topic periodically. The best of the "prosumers" offering advice try to keep an open mind and figure out what the poster is asking--sometimes that is easy, sometimes not. When it is not, misunderstandings can occur that appear to be bias, but is simply someone not fully comprehending what the poster wants, either because they misread or misinterpreted something or because a post was not worded very clearly. It is also important to make sure that when offering an opinion, we point out that it is just that, an opinion. Every person asking for help has to consider where that advice is coming from and go from there, not just accepting it blindly.

Certainly, there is some bias on the part of everyone who posts, based on experiences and preferences--it is unavoidable. Most do not necessarily try to steer someone to a specific vendor, but it happens. For example, when asked by someone to select possible stones, a vendor who has a website that is easy to navigate and provides more information without extra effort will be favored over one that does not.

I know from the professional side, I appreciate those on the forums that help educate instead of lecture. When someone like John Pollard corrects a misconception or clears up some confusion, it is done in the spirit of "here is something worth knowing" and has a friendly, helpful tone. I use John as an example because his background in education really shows up in his posts. There are other frequent contributors that offer true expert advice in the same spirit--several have posted in this thread. There are also people that throw out "advice" with the attitude of "I'm an expert, you should accept my statements without question". Those are a big turn-off for long-term members and newbies, alike.

We were all drawn here because of a true love for diamonds and need to allow others to experience the same fascination and appreciation of beauty that we have.

 

[Judah Gutwein]

....I actually wanted to add one more point which I think may be germane to this thread and especially after seeing some of the initial comments and responses.
Dave actually took the words right out of my mouth, with his earlier statement:

"I would make the observation that bias arises from opinions that the advice giver cannot detach themselves from".

Dave, what an awesome and profound statement and so very true (imo).

I recently had an argument with a friend regarding whether or not one can make a distinction between 'biased/unbiased' and 'partial/impartial'.
This was in response to a much discussed public statement made by Supreme Court Nominee, Sonia Sotomayur (those of you who are into politics and current events will know what I am referring to).

Although I don't consider myself a wordsmith by any means, it was (is) my opinion that there is a distinction between the two.

I agree with anyone who feels like it is virtually impossible for a human being to remain truly unbiased. We are all affected and influenced by a myriad number of variables which helps shape our positions and perspectives. We grow up in a certain environment, have certain family, religion, make certain friends and have unique experiences. It is almost a natural byproduct of living to be biased in one way or another.

However, 'bias' is only the internal representation of a specific leaning(s). It can be kept in check by the concerted and outward effort to remain 'impartial'.

I don't believe a Supreme Court Justice is required to be unbiased; we are all human.
I do believe a Supreme Court Justice is required to be impartial.

This means that they check their own bias at the door before entering their chambers and donning their robes. Then, when they are presented with a case, they evaluate the case based upon its own merits and a strict interpretation of the law and with impartiality to their own bias.

................................

Similarly and with respect to poster contributions to this forum, it is exceedingly tough to remain unbiased. As Moh 10 mentioned previously, you have a great experience with a certain jeweler, develop a preference for or dislike of another - and you will be biased... it is a simple fact of life.

The key, I think, is the gift of impartiality - where a poster has the ability to evaluate any given diamond/statement/advice etc. according to its own merits and without allowing feelings of bias to cloud their advice and recommendations.

Indeed, the ramifications of these decisions, is the potential for directing / re-directing traffic to the tune of thousands of dollars.

 

[Shopaholic]

I think I may open up the biggest can of worms on the 'bias' factor by just saying - Tiffany & Co.

They have some of the most beautiful diamonds I have seen, yet, there is definitely a bias against them here. Sure there is a bit of a mark-up and people who want Tiffany knows that (believe me - I know I can get comparable diamonds or a comparable setting elsewhere for a lot less but having their service is important to me, so I am willing to pay that premium) but there certainly are some steerage towards a PS vendor instead everytime there is a post about a consideration on a Tiffany & Co. ring.

 

[dragonfly411]

Shopaholic - I think the markup IS The problem for many. I think that for many it''s important that they learn that they are paying a premium for a name alone. It''s the same for a GIA graded stone, there is a premium FOR that certificate. If they still want to pay it based on the quality of Tiffany, then they can do so. But it''s the customer''s right to know that they might be able to afford something larger, or higher quality or what not else where as well. I''ve noticed though that people still remain congratulatory and positive when someone does purchase from Tiffany here.

 

[Lorelei]

The key, I think, is the gift of impartiality - where a poster has the ability to evaluate any given diamond/statement/advice etc. according to its own merits and without allowing feelings of bias to cloud their advice and recommendations.

Indeed, the ramifications of these decisions, is the potential for directing / re-directing traffic to the tune of thousands of dollars.

That is what I try to strive towards and keep in mind, well said Judah.

Shopaholic, I think things have improved with vendor fanisms and attitudes towards Tiffany in the time I have been here, basically now if someone wants Tiffany then the approach nowadays I find is to mention that they will be paying a premium for the name etc but if that is what they value then fair enough - we will help as best we can to help the buyer find their ideal Tiffany diamond. Like with colour and clarity, some prefer D IF and again if appropriate it is mentioned that these grades can be lowered without visual sacrifice if the cut is great, but if that is what the buyer prefers then it is then our job to respect that and to help them find what they are looking for within their preferences. I think things have improved on these scores, but it never hurts again to just mention the importance of trying to be impartial.

 

[Shopaholic]

Date: 7/23/2009 4:14:38 PM
Author: dragonfly411
Shopaholic - I think the markup IS The problem for many. I think that for many it''s important that they learn that they are paying a premium for a name alone. It''s the same for a GIA graded stone, there is a premium FOR that certificate. If they still want to pay it based on the quality of Tiffany, then they can do so. But it''s the customer''s right to know that they might be able to afford something larger, or higher quality or what not else where as well. I''ve noticed though that people still remain congratulatory and positive when someone does purchase from Tiffany here.

Dragonfly and Lorelei - you are both correct and I appreciate your replies. Though sometimes I just think that everyone must know about the Tiffany mark-up, it''s almost synonymous with their name - you hear Tiffany and everyone just knows of their reputation as a pricey brand, so when someone posts about them and they get responses telling them it''s more or less ''not worth'' and that they can get something cheaper elsewhere, I feel like the poster really does already know about the premium and doesn''t really need to be told that.

But I do agree - it has gotten better through the years and Dragonfly, people are very congratulatory when the Tiffany ring is shown - but that''s because PS is full of wonderful people in general.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 7/23/2009 4:29:59 PM
Author: Shopaholic

Date: 7/23/2009 4:14:38 PM
Author: dragonfly411
Shopaholic - I think the markup IS The problem for many. I think that for many it''s important that they learn that they are paying a premium for a name alone. It''s the same for a GIA graded stone, there is a premium FOR that certificate. If they still want to pay it based on the quality of Tiffany, then they can do so. But it''s the customer''s right to know that they might be able to afford something larger, or higher quality or what not else where as well. I''ve noticed though that people still remain congratulatory and positive when someone does purchase from Tiffany here.

Dragonfly and Lorelei - you are both correct and I appreciate your replies. Though sometimes I just think that everyone must know about the Tiffany mark-up, it''s almost synonymous with their name - you hear Tiffany and everyone just knows of their reputation as a pricey brand, so when someone posts about them and they get responses telling them it''s more or less ''not worth'' and that they can get something cheaper elsewhere, I feel like the poster really does already know about the premium and doesn''t really need to be told that.

But I do agree - it has gotten better through the years and Dragonfly, people are very congratulatory when the Tiffany ring is shown - but that''s because PS is full of wonderful people in general.

Maybe most do but from my point of view when advising there is a whole world out there online of wonderful diamonds that some new posters might not know about, they might think Tiffany is the only way to get a beautiful diamond especially when looking at some of the diamonds on offer out there

, so I just like to let them know that they could still get a lovely diamond online and probably for less money if they wish so they know their options. Some decide to go that way and others stay with Tiffany but I just like to let them know their choices before they spend the money! Just covering all the bases even if it does get a tad repetitive at times!

 

[Rockdiamond]

GREAT topic Judah!
The points you raise are spot on.

In terms of "there''s more good advice given than bad"- I don''t know the numbers specifically-no one does. If you were the one who had gotten bad advice, would you care about the average?

The bias that Judah speaks of does get in the way at times.
Although it can be illuminating, sometimes the differences between professionals can cause confusion.
For example: I have NO doubt that David Atlas designed his cut grade charts to aid consumers, the best way HE knows how.
However, the cut grades are opinions presented as facts.
There are many occasions that these opinions can be used, as facts, to attempt to discredit an expert posting who may disagree.


I have often stated opinions here that go against some of the "facts" placed in evidence, that are actually opinions.
How it feels from this side, is that a group of vocal prosumers will take the opportunity to try and silence any dissenting opinion.
If they did succeed, you''d be left with one voice- one opinion. Is that in the consumer''s best interest?

Jet- you have made assumptions right here in this thread.
How would you know that a stone is 95% safe- and the other 15% not safe?
You have chalked up the bias to "misunderstanding" or a "poorly worded post" when in fact, it''s not that at all, in a large number of cases.
You state that "most do not try and steer people towards a particualr vendor" which may be true- but the ones that do are quite persistent, and rarely let their motives be known.

As Judah has pointed out, trade members motives are clear- but the "prosumer" can hide behind a veil of secrecy.

The experience that bowral1 had is not uncommon.

 

[jet2ks]

Date: 7/23/2009 4:34:23 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
GREAT topic Judah!
The points you raise are spot on.

In terms of 'there's more good advice given than bad'- I don't know the numbers specifically-no one does. If you were the one who had gotten bad advice, would you care about the average?

The bias that Judah speaks of does get in the way at times.
Although it can be illuminating, sometimes the differences between professionals can cause confusion.
For example: I have NO doubt that David Atlas designed his cut grade charts to aid consumers, the best way HE knows how.
However, the cut grades are opinions presented as facts.
There are many occasions that these opinions can be used, as facts, to attempt to discredit an expert posting who may disagree.


I have often stated opinions here that go against some of the 'facts' placed in evidence, that are actually opinions.
How it feels from this side, is that a group of vocal prosumers will take the opportunity to try and silence any dissenting opinion.
If they did succeed, you'd be left with one voice- one opinion. Is that in the consumer's best interest?

Jet- you have made assumptions right here in this thread.
How would you know that a stone is 95% safe- and the other 15% not safe?
You have chalked up the bias to 'misunderstanding' or a 'poorly worded post' when in fact, it's not that at all, in a large number of cases.
You state that 'most do not try and steer people towards a particualr vendor' which may be true- but the ones that do are quite persistent, and rarely let their motives be known.

As Judah has pointed out, trade members motives are clear- but the 'prosumer' can hide behind a veil of secrecy.

The experience that bowral1 had is not uncommon.

Thank you for taking a great discussion and turning it into a personal attack. This is exactly why I now stay out of these discussions for the most part. It seemed this one was going well, until now.

I was simply agreeing with David Atlas that we tend to recommend the "safer" option when people are shopping on the Internet. I also said that the perception of bias CAN come from a misunderstanding, not that it always or even usually does. The rest of it, I'm not even going to bother commenting on, because no matter what I write you will only read what you want and take it completely out of context, just as you did the part about the possibility of a misunderstanding.

 

[stone-cold11]

Date: 7/23/2009 4:34:23 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

How would you know that a stone is 95% safe- and the other 15% not safe?

So much for math skill...

 

[Gypsy]

It's an interesting topic, and I agree with Lorelei and Storm and Todd.

My personal comments are:

There are some things that are quantifiable that we can point to and say... Look, this vendor has actual pics of the diamonds. This vendor has that ... and all this. This vendor doesn't have all that, but a quick email and you will have all of that. These are all measurable and observable 'facts' that differentiate vendors. Vendor's that keep up with the times, keep up with thier competition (not just in diamond quality, but in the amount of information they provide) generally get more recommendations. This came up on the CS board too... one of the vendors was called out because their prices are pretty high, and their site is well... not competitive. If you are selling to an online market then you have to keep up with your competitors. NOW... how a vendor frames who their competition IS, is another matter that adds to this. For example, I don't think James Allen is trying to compete with Goodoldgold. I think of JA as a site that offers pricing similar to Blue Nile, is also a drop shipper, BUT has pics of diamonds online and can at least get an IS in when requested... so I will recommend them over Blue Nile most of the time.

Then there are things that aren't quantifiable, let's call them "abstract". Which you may regard as bias. Every person has their own code of conduct. Ethics, morality, integrity.. their own standards of what they expect from themselves and from others, including vendors. Once you've been on the boards some time, you see that some vendors REALLY REALLY go the extra mile to make their customers happy, to address complains in a professional matter, to offer UNBIASED advice, and even PRAISE of another vendor's merchandise. Take Todd for example, since he's replied here...

Quantifiables:
A) He's been in the industry for a long time.
B) He's an now Infinity Dealer.
C) Infinity provides A LOT of information on their diamonds.

Other "abstract" factors:
A) I've SEEN him praise other vendor's (not Infinty vendor's) work and goods. Genuinely.
B) I've SEEN him give VERY unbiased educational advice.

So, would I recommend Todd? Absolutely.

Now, you add to that other factors. Say I'd bought from Todd (and I would not hestiate to do so), and had a wonderful experience. Would it be 'bias' for me to share that experience or would that be a "quantifiable" since it is something I, personally would have experienced. And am I therefore "biased" and to encourage other's who are looking for a great buying experience to work with Todd, or is it just what it is. A recommendation based on BOTH quantifiables and on more 'abstract' information.

There are vendors I would not recommend. Despite their popularity on these boards, they have offended my own PERSONAL standards for how a vendor behaves. There could be many reasons for this. I've seen their work, and consider it sub par compared to ther work I've personally seen by other vendors. They've reacted badly to criticism on these boards and have insulted experts, consumers, or both. Or I just don't agree with their business practices. Is that bias? Probably. But it's based on something concrete, at least for me. So I don't recommend them, because there are many vendors on here who have not done these things, and whom I appreciate for their professionalism as a result. So if a vendor, despite having a REALLY AWESOME website and providing a ton of information or whatever DOESN'T get recommended on here with regularity, you might look to 'abstract' factors. Such as the reputation they have aquired as a result of some of their actions that may have offended a majority of the posters who recommend vendors.

Leon is a perfect example. I have seen the man's work, it's lovely. I have talked to the man, gotten qoutes from him, and I have read about the poor treatment other PSers have recieved from him, and the good threatment other PSers have received from him. Would I work with him? Not directly. So do I recommend him? Sometimes, if it's a good fit. But if I am recommending him there are usually caveats in my recommendations especially to newer members. Such as... "Leon is highly regarded on here and makes a setting that sounds like it is EXACTLY what you are looking for, and many have used him happily. However there have been others who have not been happy with his customer service or other aspects of his work, do a search to see what those experiences are, give him a call and see what your comfort level is." That's not a "Call Todd, he'll take care of you, I KNOW IT." recommendation. That's a recommendation with reservations. And, Leon has, in my opinion, earned my reservations... or bias, as you may call it. Then there are other vendors whom I absolutely would not work with (and no, I won't say who), AND whome I won't recommend at all. I will recommend someone else. There is ALWAYS someone else. Even for what Leon does, for example.

What I guess I am trying to say is... what you are calling bias, IMO, doesn't occur in a vaccum. Usually 'bias' whether is for or against is EARNED, by factors both quantifiable and abstract. And really... that's life.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Jet- I am sorry if you felt my post was attacking you personally.
The essence of your point- that there was an 95% chance the consumer would get a beautiful diamond, as opposed to one with a 15% chance ( sorry about that typo before Stone cold) was what I was questioning.
How would one know such percentages?
By attaching numbers- or cut grades- to a discussion, it makes it seem there are facts in evidence, when we're discussing opinion.
As David pointed out- sometimes it's hard to separate one's self from a strongly held opinion.
But if we label things that are subjective opinions as "facts" it can increase the chances of bias.

ETA- Gypsy- well put. Of course we'll all have opinions.
A smart trades person here would welcome valid criticism.
The vendor who was called out on the CS board was done a huge favor.

 

[Shopaholic]

Date: 7/23/2009 4:33:22 PM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 7/23/2009 4:29:59 PM
Author: Shopaholic

Date: 7/23/2009 4:14:38 PM
Author: dragonfly411
Shopaholic - I think the markup IS The problem for many. I think that for many it's important that they learn that they are paying a premium for a name alone. It's the same for a GIA graded stone, there is a premium FOR that certificate. If they still want to pay it based on the quality of Tiffany, then they can do so. But it's the customer's right to know that they might be able to afford something larger, or higher quality or what not else where as well. I've noticed though that people still remain congratulatory and positive when someone does purchase from Tiffany here.

Dragonfly and Lorelei - you are both correct and I appreciate your replies. Though sometimes I just think that everyone must know about the Tiffany mark-up, it's almost synonymous with their name - you hear Tiffany and everyone just knows of their reputation as a pricey brand, so when someone posts about them and they get responses telling them it's more or less 'not worth' and that they can get something cheaper elsewhere, I feel like the poster really does already know about the premium and doesn't really need to be told that.

But I do agree - it has gotten better through the years and Dragonfly, people are very congratulatory when the Tiffany ring is shown - but that's because PS is full of wonderful people in general.

Maybe most do but from my point of view when advising there is a whole world out there online of wonderful diamonds that some new posters might not know about, they might think Tiffany is the only way to get a beautiful diamond especially when looking at some of the diamonds on offer out there

, so I just like to let them know that they could still get a lovely diamond online and probably for less money if they wish so they know their options. Some decide to go that way and others stay with Tiffany but I just like to let them know their choices before they spend the money! Just covering all the bases even if it does get a tad repetitive at times!

This is very true, didn't think of that side, very sound reasoning indeed, thanks Lorelei. I just got stuck on that bias notion because I noticed that there is that thing about only speaking about Tiffany's on Fridays - I always wondered what that was all about.

I think that what makes PS great is that everyone is really helpful and always mean well in the end, no matter what biases prevail at the time.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 7/23/2009 6:43:43 PM
Author: Shopaholic

Date: 7/23/2009 4:33:22 PM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 7/23/2009 4:29:59 PM
Author: Shopaholic

Date: 7/23/2009 4:14:38 PM
Author: dragonfly411
Shopaholic - I think the markup IS The problem for many. I think that for many it''s important that they learn that they are paying a premium for a name alone. It''s the same for a GIA graded stone, there is a premium FOR that certificate. If they still want to pay it based on the quality of Tiffany, then they can do so. But it''s the customer''s right to know that they might be able to afford something larger, or higher quality or what not else where as well. I''ve noticed though that people still remain congratulatory and positive when someone does purchase from Tiffany here.

Dragonfly and Lorelei - you are both correct and I appreciate your replies. Though sometimes I just think that everyone must know about the Tiffany mark-up, it''s almost synonymous with their name - you hear Tiffany and everyone just knows of their reputation as a pricey brand, so when someone posts about them and they get responses telling them it''s more or less ''not worth'' and that they can get something cheaper elsewhere, I feel like the poster really does already know about the premium and doesn''t really need to be told that.

But I do agree - it has gotten better through the years and Dragonfly, people are very congratulatory when the Tiffany ring is shown - but that''s because PS is full of wonderful people in general.

Maybe most do but from my point of view when advising there is a whole world out there online of wonderful diamonds that some new posters might not know about, they might think Tiffany is the only way to get a beautiful diamond especially when looking at some of the diamonds on offer out there

, so I just like to let them know that they could still get a lovely diamond online and probably for less money if they wish so they know their options. Some decide to go that way and others stay with Tiffany but I just like to let them know their choices before they spend the money! Just covering all the bases even if it does get a tad repetitive at times!

This is very true, didn''t think of that side, very sound reasoning indeed, thanks Lorelei. I think that is what makes PS so great, everyone is super helpful and always mean well in the end.

xoxo