A Discussion On Bias

[risingsun]

You always have my support, dear Gypsy. I have grown very tired and irritated with any vendor who argues and insults consumers, appraisers, and other vendors without the regard for the disruption that it causes in our community. He/she may call it an opinion, but I consider it a lack of self-awareness on the most basic level.

 

[Gypsy]

Moh-- Very sad, but yes, comical ... but not in a "HAHAHA" way, more like a "DEAR GOD NO" way. Especially when if you look back in certain threads (like, maybe this one) you will see that some of us (and this includes both consumers and other vendors) DID TRY to WARN the vendor, with as much tact as possible, that they were well on their way to shooting themselves in the foot. And yet... they keep on going sure that they are correct and we are missing something.

Risingsun, you are a gem my dear. WITH A REALLY GORGEOUS NEW SETTING and AV. And I and thankful that I have earned that support, and just want to say that I am careful to guard against losing it, realizing that it is a responsibility as well as priviledge.

 

[Todd Gray]

Date: 7/24/2009 5:23:32 PM
Author: Moh 10
Whiteflash and GOG and a couple others were here early and posting often.

People bought from them and started to recommend them
Which begat more testimonies, which begat more sales.
Which begat even more testimonies, which begat even more sales.
People loved John Pollard at Whiteflash and his name brings sales to HPD.
People loved the ACAs and now Brian Gavin leaving WF brings sales to BGD because we all knew him as the brain behind the ACA.
Now vendors newer to PS want the same loyalty and referrals.

This really is a chicken and egg problem.
Isn''t there a limit to the number of vendors who can get recommended?
How can we be familiar with, or have purchased from 10 or 20 vendors?
Diamonds are expensive.

But I''ll tell you, if I was a diamond vendor I''d be sooooooo jealous of the main PS vendors (and their large loyal unpaid crew which literally do their selling for them) and I''d be on this forum doing anything I could to get some eyeballs looking my way.

And therein is the rub, is it not? Vendors who have been with Price Scope since the inception and who have contributed to the forum regularly over the years; and who continue to contribute to the forum by answering questions posted by consumers and participating in conversations such as this tend to be more recognized than vendors who are merely listed on Price Scope and do not contribute to the forum in a constructive manner. How this concept is much of a surprise to anybody is kind of bewildering to me, it is no different than expecting to be recognized and recommended by members of your local Chamber of Commerce if you never go to the meetings - or if you only go to the meetings in hopes of selling something and never actually contribute anything of substance to the organization beyond the fact that you paid your dues.

Here''s a not so new concept... Help enough other people get what they want and you will get what you need.

People new to the forum tend to post questions on the forum which have been read and answered thousands of times by those of us who are regulars here, yesterday a friend of mine asked why I bother to answer those questions... The answer is because "the question is new to the person who asked it and they deserve an answer" and the reality is that by answering that question "again" we gain the appreciation and possibly the respect of the people who seek the answer to the question.

I like this thread, I think it provides interesting insight into the people who contribute to PS on a regular basis.

 

[Gypsy]

And THAT is a perfect demonstration of why I would recommend Todd. And why I might not, as a consumer advocate on these boards, recommend other jewelers on here. Especially ones who had been banned and allowed back on-- and especially if I know of exactly WHY they were banned. Glass houses and stones folks. Be careful where you throw them.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 7/24/2009 5:00:06 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 7/24/2009 2:54:23 PM

Author: Judah Gutwein

In general however, I would respectfully suggest, that it isn't an accurate comparison to equate a posters need to maintain a 'reputation' on the net vs. a vendor/tradespersons need to do the same.



This kind of moral equivalence to promote the argument that a poster has as much at stake (and as nuch to lose) as any tradesperson posting to a public forum with respect to their need to be totally transparent, is kind of an oxymoron.



Vendors or tradespeople posting to these (or any) boards and existing on the net, have literally everything hanging out there. There is only one personality present. You know their actual names, their titles, contact info., history, and most importantly the way in which they make a living. Now when you add to the mix, the knowledge that a forum acts as an important conduit for tradespeople to offer help and advice (while promoting their services), it makes for an incredibly transparent glass house to live in! There is no anonymity and no room for a tradesperson on the internet to hide behind a facade. Essentially, what you see is what you get and it better be good if the tradesperson hopes to survive in this medium.



Conversely, an anonymous poster on the net has the luxury of being able to cultivate a new persona and one which can be completely unique vis a vis their real life personality.


They create an alias and operate in total anonymity from behind a keyboard. Their contributions do not impact on their personal lives, on their families, or on their livelihood. They can earn a living during the day without any fear of how their cultivated personality on the net affects their real lives.



They can hold forth on a variety of topics dispensing advice with aplomb and without any fear of consequential contradiction or reprecussion and with no concern as to how it may affect their personal lives and bottom li$ne



Having said that, I believe that one of the distinguishing characteristics of this particular community on the net, is indeed the increased transparency of the many posters and pro-sumers who have worked tirelessly to contribute in a most positive and meaningful way. Anonymous or not, pro-sumers have spent countless hours helping newbies and are singularly responsible for their subsequent happy purchases.



When Lorelei and Gypsy talk about the amazing feelings of pride and happiness (and subsequent feelings of responsibility) stemming from the knowledge that they have helped people with their momentous purchases, it speaks volumes about the atmosphere here.



My general point though, is to illustrate why there are quantifiable differences between posters and tradespeople, which should preclude a simple equivocation of their dual need for transparency on the net.

Some things are worth far more than money.

Honestly it is clear that you do not totally get what motivates the pro-sumers here.

In the second part of your post you get close but you missed the intensity of feeling they have for what they do.

That intensity is higher than any but the most dedicated vendors who help a lot and it is just as high as theirs.



When a vendor whines they arent getting recommended enough I tell them it is very transparent what they have to do to get recommended more, so step up.

There is no super secret formula it is 100% wide open for anyone willing to put the work into it.

There is even a journal article on how to do it that covers most of it and a little reading will give one the rest of the information.

It will not be overnight and your reputation in the trade or years in the trade has little or nothing to do with it.

That is a bitter pill for many in the trade to swallow but it is the way it is and the way it should be.

What a lot of you guys seem to be overlooking, is that by making a post such as he did, Judah was exemplifying the fact that some things are more important than money.

A respected trades person is putting their reputation on the line- and real money.
AS Judah pointed out eloquently- the very nature of the system means prosumers are anonymous. Clearly they have far less to risk, as compared to a professional.
That is not to say that prosumers , as a whole, have anything but pure motivation.
I can feel how dedicated people like Gypsy, and Ellen are.
It's not about the motivation, or desire.

The fact is, the most meaningful education about diamonds must be done hands on.
Earn your GG and you're only beginning.
You need to look at many thousands of diamonds to really learn the intricacies in a broad sense.
It can be very valuable for consumers to hear other consumers' experience with vendors- no question.
Having prosumers advise people on which diamond to buy is a different matter. Someone said no one got an ugly diamond- and maybe that's true. However there may have been many cases consumers spent more than they needed to.


There are different viewpoints in the trade.
Garry is not wrong. Nor John. Nor David Atlas.
Nor am I- if we're talking about how to grade a diamond- including the cut.
The fact we all have experience, and see things differently enriches the conversation for all- aside from some prosumers it seems. Thankfully, the people that run PS allow an open conversation.

 

[bowral1]

Sorry I know that I don’t know what the heck is going on . . . . but I will express my opinions.

Can I ask a question? Gypsy what are you talking about? Was Excel banned from PS for doing something . . . ie breaking rules awhile ago? I think you have pretty much said that without saying it . . . . is it not allowed to be discussed? It sounds as though there is this whole back story to this that I am not in the loop on. . . . what are the “rules” anyway?

Todd I like your thinking and your advice.

“People new to the forum tend to post questions on the forum which have been read and answered thousands of times by those of us who are regulars here, yesterday a friend of mine asked why I bother to answer those questions... The answer is because "the question is new to the person who asked it and they deserve an answer" and the reality is that by answering that question "again" we gain the appreciation and possibly the respect of the people who seek the answer to the question.”

I have noticed at times PS’ers practically yell at new posters and shame them for asking “dumb questions” or asking about a non-approved vendor? The ones who are patient and nice will be the most helpful the newbies in the end. Nobody responds well the criticism.

So if you want my advice (from a diamond neophyte but none the less a consumer) to the non-approved PS vendors or "favored" PS vendors.

The past was the past. It sounds from the posts that whatever happened in the past may have caused some bias on PS, but that doesn’t mean you cant rebuild your reputation by helping people out on this website. Give them advice on gridle thickness, table, depth etc. You are wealth of knowledge share it online with others. Then as Moh said the reviews will come and eventually they will multiply with more happy customers (like myself).

Melissa

 

[Upgradable]

Date: 7/24/2009 6:43:31 PM
Author: Rockdiamond



What a lot of you guys seem to be overlooking, is that by making a post such as he did, Judah was exemplifying the fact that some things are more important than money.

A respected trades person is putting their reputation on the line- and real money.
AS Judah pointed out eloquently- the very nature of the system means prosumers are anonymous. Clearly they have far less to risk, as compared to a professional.
That is not to say that prosumers , as a whole, have anything but pure motivation.
I can feel how dedicated people like Gypsy, and Ellen are.
It's not about the motivation, or desire.

The fact is, the most meaningful education about diamonds must be done hands on.
Earn your GG and you're only beginning.
You need to look at many thousands of diamonds to really learn the intricacies in a broad sense.
It can be very valuable for consumers to hear other consumers' experience with vendors- no question.
Having prosumers advise people on which diamond to buy is a different matter. Someone said no one got an ugly diamond- and maybe that's true. However there may have been many cases consumers spent more than they needed to.


There are different viewpoints in the trade.
Garry is not wrong. Nor John. Nor David Atlas.
Nor am I- if we're talking about how to grade a diamond- including the cut.
The fact we all have experience, and see things differently enriches the conversation for all- aside from some prosumers it seems. Thankfully, the people that run PS allow an open conversation.

1) Nor anything AT ALL to gain.

2) So why not just close the forum alltogether and start endorsing only shopping at B&M.

3) Then why, as David so patently asked, haven't you shown your cards??

Still doesn't get it!

 

[Moh 10]

Well, at least his diamond pics are bright.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hi upgradable,
It seems to me, one of the purposes of PS is to assist consumers learning about diamonds- and how to shop for them.
As such, a vendor might have something to gain, but they bring more to the table in certain specific areas.
As I mentioned, discussing how to buy and vendor experiences is a great part of this forum.
In that, a consumer who has shopping experience, or has done business with "X" jeweler, has hands on experience.

When it comes to the physical aspects of diamonds, hands on training is essential.
That is not to say that the use of ASET/IS and analyzing of measurements and angles is meaningless- far from it.
But in a practical sense, you'd need to see a lot of diamonds to make accurate, and reasonable comments about some of the subtle aspects such as color, clarity, and cut.
In those areas, it's got to be learned hands on.


In terms of cards, I've laid every one on the table.

 

[Ellen]

This has been a great thread, with many pertinent points made by so many! So much so, that anything important I had really thought of to add, has already been said. Thanks all!

However, threads like this tend to make me feel as if I should respond, even though I know I have no obligation to do so. But, I am a part of this place, and I have invested a lot. I care, and I want people to know where I''m coming from. So, I found an old post of mine from this thread, which just happens to have many posts/points that correlate with this thread we''re in now. So I will just copy and paste my response from in there.

However, I will also add, that I, and I think most of us, try hard be fair with the vendors, even if we''ve had not so great experiences. I''ve had a couple negative ones. I do not hold it against the vendors to the point I won''t recommend them, though in one case some might say I''d have that right. Instead, I generally inject some cautionary words when discussing them. I do try to be fair in my posts, though I''m sure I fail occasionally. We''re all human.

As has been pointed out though, the main reason I am here, and where my loyalty/devotion ultimately lies, is with the consumers. Nobody else.



My post from previous thread:

I''m also glad this thread came up, as it gives me a place to explain why I work/help the way I do.

After helping out here for the last two years, I have helped find a lot of diamonds. I have found that there are certain vendors who almost always have what I''m looking for at a good price. I do try, many times, to look all over. But there are some who just rarely have anything I need, or they do, but they are much more expensive. I just can''t see suggesting a stone that''s several hundred, to a thousand or more dollars, instead of a similar stone somewhere else for less.

Info plays a big part too, some vendors have everything I want to look at, that''s key. And upgrade policies come into play also.

So while it may seem sometimes like I have favorites, that''s not really it, it''s everything else I''ve mentioned.


And I for one don''t really like, nor think it''s fun to be perceived as an expert. I''m not, far from it. But I have learned enough to help out, and to pay it forward on what I got out of this place when I came here a little over 2 years ago. That''s my only reward, and that is more than enough.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 7/24/2009 7:17:01 PM
Author: bowral1

I have noticed at times PS’ers practically yell at new posters and shame them for asking “dumb questions” or asking about a non-approved vendor? The ones who are patient and nice will be the most helpful the newbies in the end. Nobody responds well the criticism.

Honestly, I post here a lot, and I have rarely seen what you''re describing.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 7/24/2009 2:06:55 PM
Author: oldminer
RD: I am responding to your following statment:


What we must disagree on is that the AGA Cut Class grades are by virtue of my expertise, ''facts''. In a courtroom, ONLY an expert can express an opinion and have it given the weight of ''Facts''. Opinions provided by laymen or those without credentials as experts are not allowed to be given in recorded testimony. I realize that my ''facts'' may not correspond 100% with the ''facts'' provided by other ''experts'', but they are provided with impartiality and without bias. You may have what you might consider better facts, but you have never once shared them here about what makes a diamond a beautiful and well fashioned stone. You, instead, offer the suggestion that you know, but you are going to keep it to yourself. It is really a nearly humorous position you have chosen. The expert who claims to know more than another expert, but when the game is played out and the cards are to be put on the table, you don''t show your cards. How will anyone watching this play out know who has the better hand? Admittedly, there is no money in the pot, so it won''t matter to me or to you, but those who read this thread really would like to know the basis of your frequent claims about diamonds cut outside the norm becoming orphans due to false facts being promoted by me and by many others. Show us what you got! We''d love to know more and everyone would like to see what you might offer. I have a very open mind about learning more. I''m not annoyed, but criticism without constructive advice seems rather empty.

 

[decodelighted]

Judah,
Speaking of "masking" ...it seems like *you're* the one masking your attempts to insult & attack the PS prosumer community members into loving you under the guise of innocent conversation. Does it seem like such a good tactic in retrospect?
Decodelighted
(who doesn't recommend "the biggies" BTW yet can't help but smell the stank in here)

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 7/24/2009 4:03:15 AM
Author: Gypsy
Thank you RD.

Thought about this again... insomnia. Gotta love it. And you know it makes me fiesty.

Here's an additional thought (I'll make this one relatively short though). As regular posters who recommend vendors, WE have reputations too. How many times has someone thanked Ellen or Lorelei, or Storm when they've recieved their item?

I know when I've helped someone and they have thanked me it is such a wonderful feeling.

SO NO, I don't want the reverse of that to happen. I don't WANT someone to come on here (or some other board, or wherever) and say... GYPSY told me to work with THIS VENDOR, or LINKED ME TO THIS DIAMOND and it went horribly wrong, and the vendor was AWFUL about fixing it. SO next time GYPSY recommends something, GYPSY has that to contend with from her peers, and from her own conscience.

So I do stick to 'safe' choices when I recommend. By my definition of safe, and yes of course that includes vendors I've personally worked with and ones I would work with AND excludes ones I wouldn't work with. Because I am aware of the impact I can have ON THE CONSUMER. And it has NOTHING, to do with the finances of the vendor. Frankly, I don't consider ANY vendor's finances when I make a recommendation, nor do I think I should. It's about the consumer for me, who is looking for guidance from another consumer.

What I think about is how they will feel when they open that box. Or, since NO vendor is perfect, if something goes wrong, how the will be treated when they try to address the problem whatever it is.

My feeling TO ANY VENDOR that feels the recommendations on take 'rightful' business away from them and 'route' it to another... is this. LOOK TO YOUR OWN HOUSE FIRST, before trying to blame another business, or another expert on these boards, or a consumer on these boards. As I said before... there are many factors that go into a recommendation. FIRST among them is the vendor's goods, reputation and actions (and because this is the net, their websites, pic and scan abilites and so forth). Because NO ONE on here is just buying a hunk of carbon that sparkles. They are buying and engagement ring, a wedding band, a special gift for a birthday, an anniversary. Or something special for themselves because they want to reward themselves, or because they've skrimped and saved for it. And you know what? I want them to have the best experience they can have. Regardless of how it affects a vendor's bottom line. Cause, It's NOT ABOUT THE VENDOR. If it was we would alll be shills and this site a mockery.

ETA: I STINK at making things short, don't I?

Good at fiesty though.

Gypsy you have summed up most of my position especially the TO ANY VENDOR PART.

If you are a vendor and feel a negative bias here or that another vendor was suggested in these forums then look at the following factors:

1) Do you provide ASET, IS, Magnified Pictures, GIA Cert, (Occasional educational Videos), Maybe in special cases comparison Videos on the diamonds? Is this readily available or does it have to be requested one at a time and take a long time to receive?
2) Do you have a friendly Return, Upgrade, Buyback policy?
3) Are your prices on virtual inventory competitive? Is your in house stock competitively priced?
4) Are you educating consumers and have the time and staff to both sell and educate an consumer?
5) Do you have a specific expertise and a proven track record for a certain cut of diamonds?
6) Have you carved out a niche through specific marketing, additional education on your website, or a reputation here in your niche area?
7) Is your website user friendly and the searches easy to navigate so consumers can easily find what they want?
--------------
Here are the less important but still factores on this site:

Are you well known by posters here and have examples of your rings and happy stories about your site?
9) Do you post here and try to educate consumers instead of just selling your opinions and trying to drive traffic to your site?

If any of those areas is lacking then "A Vendor" may have felt a negative bias and a consumer looking at their stones may have been given alternatives by myself or many of the other regular posters here.
My opinions often come from searching out the stones in question from the original vendor to fill in any missing information the poster left out and comparing this stone to other vendors. The alternative vendors I suggest often have different policies but will provide a full compliment of tests upon request, are not pushing for a sale and are patient enough to educate even if it doesn't lead to an immediate sale. In addition in general full information vendors who have more stock in house are generally a little more expensive but with PS discounts the prices are very comparable to a number of drop shippers in many cases.

I am also in the school of thought that an engagement ring is permanent and I would hate to give advice to someone with imperfect information or without a thorough comparison. With this in mind 1) 2) and 3) are most important and if all vendors here satisfied these three areas then there would be very little room for "Bias". I am very much against the school of "Wow the diamond looks pretty buy it!" I want to the consumer to decide for themself "Wow the diamond is better than MOST of the other ones in the price range and therefore I know this is the one for me"

I think it would be tough for a new or not well known vendor to become popular on here but it can be done for a certain niche of diamonds and that is what I think you vendors can do to avoid the "bias". It would be extremely expensive and impractical to provide full information on virtual diamonds but you should definietly have in house stock that is unique and in demand by a certain type of consumer and its still your job to make it well known here. Jon at GOG has done an excellent job of Educating/Marketing with videos on Vimeo.com and on his website and I hope other vendors follow his lead.

Avoid the "Bias" Provide the consumer with the full information so they don't have to come here.

CCL

 

[risingsun]

Date: 7/24/2009 5:49:47 PM
Author: Gypsy
Moh-- Very sad, but yes, comical ... but not in a ''HAHAHA'' way, more like a ''DEAR GOD NO'' way. Especially when if you look back in certain threads (like, maybe this one) you will see that some of us (and this includes both consumers and other vendors) DID TRY to WARN the vendor, with as much tact as possible, that they were well on their way to shooting themselves in the foot. And yet... they keep on going sure that they are correct and we are missing something.

Risingsun, you are a gem my dear. WITH A REALLY GORGEOUS NEW SETTING and AV. And I and thankful that I have earned that support, and just want to say that I am careful to guard against losing it, realizing that it is a responsibility as well as priviledge.

Thank you for your kind words, Gypsy. You have earned my support and the support of many others on this board. I am dismayed to see how you and other prosumers have been treated in these "disgruntled vendor" threads. Vendors have an incredible opportunity to increase their visibility by partipating on PS. That visibility can be positive or negative. Why would someone on a diamond forum--where people buy diamonds!!--choose to be petty and disagreeable and argue with consumers, appraisers and other vendors

Is that how you want potential customers to see you? You make your own reputation on this board. If you have dug yourself into a ditch, don''t blame others. It''s your responsibility to engage in service recovery and dig yourself out of it.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 7/24/2009 6:43:31 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

There are different viewpoints in the trade.
Garry is not wrong. Nor John. Nor David Atlas.
Nor am I- if we''re talking about how to grade a diamond- including the cut.
The fact we all have experience, and see things differently enriches the conversation for all- aside from some prosumers it seems. Thankfully, the people that run PS allow an open conversation.

RD... you kept on

but haven''t taught us anything about diamonds yet.

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 7/24/2009 9:15:26 PM
Author: risingsun
Why would someone on a diamond forum--where people buy diamonds!!--choose to be petty and disagreeable and argue with consumers, appraisers and other vendors

Is that how you want potential customers to see you? You make your own reputation on this board. If you have dug yourself into a ditch, don't blame others. It's your responsibility to engage in service recovery and dig yourself out of it.

Orrrrrr ... you can try to b*tchslap the prosumers with cutting words and be snide about their well-earned pride at having helped people drill down their seemingly overwhelming choices -- with oft times tedious searches and repetitive explanations -- to hopefully find a gorgeous, personal, reasonable solution.** How ridiculous of them! C'mere little pretty ... only jewelers can help you. Tell that to the folks who walk into Jareds looking for an Asscher only to be shown Princess cuts.


** This way is a trainwreck ... but at least entertaining to watch.

 

[Moh 10]

Date: 7/24/2009 9:16:12 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 7/24/2009 6:43:31 PM

Author: Rockdiamond



There are different viewpoints in the trade.

Garry is not wrong. Nor John. Nor David Atlas.

Nor am I- if we're talking about how to grade a diamond- including the cut.

The fact we all have experience, and see things differently enriches the conversation for all- aside from some prosumers it seems. Thankfully, the people that run PS allow an open conversation.

RD... you kept on

but haven't taught us anything about diamonds yet.

Yes he has.
Only a GG with 30 years of experience can judge a diamond, and he doesn't need no freekin proportions or no girlyman iScope schmyScope - so only buy diamonds from HIM and cease all this silly diamond edjumacation.

There - now pay attention DF.

 

[Todd Gray]

Date: 7/24/2009 9:24:55 PM
Author: decodelighted
Orrrrrr ... you can try to b*tchslap the prosumers with cutting words and be snide about their well-earned pride at having helped people drill down their seemingly overwhelming choices -- with oft times tedious searches and repetitive explanations -- to hopefully find a gorgeous, personal, reasonable solution.** How ridiculous of them! C''mere little pretty ... only jewelers can help you. Tell that to the folks who walk into Jareds looking for an Asscher only to be shown Princess cuts.

** This way is a trainwreck ... but at least entertaining to watch.

That cracks me up! When Valerie and I first got together she didn''t believe that I was in the diamond business, so she dragged me (kicking and screaming) into, uh, it begins with a "Q-R-S or T", and during the course of "diamond shopping" the lady behind the counter asked me whether we''d like to see a multi-faceted round which caught my interest because I assumed she was referring to a modified round which I didn''t think they carried, so I said sure... imagine my surprise when she hands me an Asscher cut ring set in a halo type setting!

Which I handed to Valerie and said "look honey, a multi-faceted ROUND!"

I almost died laughing...

 

[bowral1]

Ellen I guess I should rephrase since I lumped a lot into that one statement. It could just be the posts that I am reading (I am not on here nearly as much as most) but it seems that some times the statements are a little condescending. I am not trying to call anyone out. I can’t even remember who posted them. So please don’t misunderstand my post. I do respect the regulars who help and they are very much appreciated, and they know who they are

For example one poster was asking about a non approved PS vendor (can’t remember who). They asked about them and pretty much many PS’ers turned their noses up at them for mentioning a non-approved vendor (my impression). Some didn’t even respond they simply said things like “They aren’t an approved Vendor here, we don’t use them”. That is no help to this poor newbie and I remember thinking was “thank goodness I never asked that question” ha ha

Or the post about the poor girl who bought a ring in Jamaica (or some island) and got screwed some people were pretty harsh. She admitted it was dumb, but she still got slammed by some. Some were kind of condescending, she was asking for help and she didn’t need people telling her how stupid she was . . . .

Or the girl who asked about income vs diamond. Again she is young . . . . many young people don’t see this as a rude thing (not saying one way or another) to ask. People were kind of rude to her too. She was obviously new to the site and that is probably why she had such unrealistic expectations (I know from my own experience that was the case). I think if she had done the research herself she would have come to a more realistic ring price.

I guess I have noticed a kind of superior clique for who are cool/approved diamond vendors and those who aren’t. I obviously don’t know the whole background and I realize I am ignorant to probably a lot of reasons why this is, it’s just an observation. I value all the PS’ers opinions and am very thankful for this site.

Thank you Gypsy for informing me I appreciate it. It looks as though Judah is trying to rebuild the reputation his father may have damaged. I can respect that and hopefully Judah you can take this constructive criticism and learn from it as they suggested? As I said before I was very pleased with Excel and I hope that we can all hug it out!

 

[Sam82]

Just to keep things in perspective, the issue with Barry/Excel happened about 5 years ago. So, how much bearing does it have on today?

It is human nature to ask for recommendations, especially when a significant amount of money is involved. I think it is fair for PSers to post there experiences here. I''m not seeing a problem. Many PSers have stated that they would not shop from Bluenile. Still, those who have bought from BN have defended the company and seem quite happy. To each is own.

 

[Kaleigh]

Not loving this thread. Look at what the prosumers do day in and day out. Actually they make your job easier, because by the time they get to you, they know the importance of cut, etc... The less you have to spend on educating them... If we recommend certain vendors it's because we have had personal experiences with them... Or those vendors have earned a great reputation.
Coming on here and whining isn't going to help your case, plain and simple...

Proving yourself in a more meaningful way by helping the newbies will go a long way... Keep it simple and keep your egos out of it. We know that you love to discuss differeing opinions, just don't thread jack a newbies thread to satisfy your OWN ego....

 

[Ellen]

Date: 7/24/2009 9:54:48 PM
Author: bowral1

Ellen I guess I should rephrase since I lumped a lot into that one statement. It could just be the posts that I am reading (I am not on here nearly as much as most) but it seems that some times the statements are a little condescending. I am not trying to call anyone out. I can’t even remember who posted them. So please don’t misunderstand my post. I do respect the regulars who help and they are very much appreciated, and they know who they are

For example one poster was asking about a non approved PS vendor (can’t remember who). They asked about them and pretty much many PS’ers turned their noses up at them for mentioning a non-approved vendor (my impression). Some didn’t even respond they simply said things like “They aren’t an approved Vendor here, we don’t use them”. That is no help to this poor newbie and I remember thinking was “thank goodness I never asked that question” ha ha

Or the post about the poor girl who bought a ring in Jamaica (or some island) and got screwed some people were pretty harsh. She admitted it was dumb, but she still got slammed by some. Some were kind of condescending, she was asking for help and she didn’t need people telling her how stupid she was . . . .

Or the girl who asked about income vs diamond. Again she is young . . . . many young people don’t see this as a rude thing (not saying one way or another) to ask. People were kind of rude to her too. She was obviously new to the site and that is probably why she had such unrealistic expectations (I know from my own experience that was the case). I think if she had done the research herself she would have come to a more realistic ring price.

I guess I have noticed a kind of superior clique for who are cool/approved diamond vendors and those who aren’t. I obviously don’t know the whole background and I realize I am ignorant to probably a lot of reasons why this is, it’s just an observation. I value all the PS’ers opinions and am very thankful for this site.

Thank you Gypsy for informing me I appreciate it. It looks as though Judah is trying to rebuild the reputation his father may have damaged. I can respect that and hopefully Judah you can take this constructive criticism and learn from it as they suggested? As I said before I was very pleased with Excel and I hope that we can all hug it out!

Bowral, thank you for clarifying.

I do recall a couple of the threads you mentioned, and yes, there were some rude comments made. I was envisioning someone asking about a diamond and people jumping all over the poster! These you mentioned weren''t that type of scenario, but I agree, there were some rude comments made. I''m not going to justify it, and no one deserves that. Unfortunately, sometimes certain types of posts just seem to open the floodgates. But again, it''s not right. Hopefully those who responded unkindly will see this, and try harder to be helpful next time.

Again, thank you for posting your thoughts. We all need a gentle reminder once in a while.

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 7/24/2009 10:07:13 PM
Author: Sam82
Just to keep things in perspective, the issue with Barry/Excel happened about 5 years ago. So, how much bearing does it have on today?

.

Well Sam, let''s put it this way. Before this post... not too much-- just something in the back of the mind for most willing to give Excel a shot at based on their current business model and attitude. After this post, and the um... how did my dear Deco put it? Ah yes, STANK of this thread combined with what happened then... may have more bearing than Excel would like. What could be inferred is... has the leopard changed it''s spots? Or is it just wearing a Mask (with a new spokesperson''s face on it), but what''s underneath hasn''t learned the lessons of 5 years ago. AND instead, over the last 5 years, perhaps a certain resentment has ... simmered, and is now being brought to light in this thread. So not only have things not improved over the years, but maybe they''ve even declined???

Thank you very much to your kind comments RS and CCL.

Bowral... I think the point of many here is... Excel might benifit from letting their customer''s positive experiences (like yours) speak for them, and gain them a more favorable reputation, rather than to make some of the comments they have in this thread, and play the disingenious victim.

No one, and myself included brought up Excel''s history until Excel started attacking. Which is why people in glass houses. Because see... there was history and we willing to let bygones be bygones... until the history suddenly seemed relevant. Ya know?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 7/24/2009 2:06:55 PM
Author: oldminer
RD: I am responding to your following statment:

''For example: I have NO doubt that David Atlas designed his cut grade charts to aid consumers, the best way HE knows how.
However, the cut grades are opinions presented as facts.''


I did create these charts to help the consumer and my local retailers for whom we made many diamond grading reports. A few of these retailers made extensive use of reports with these cut grades and successfully marketed ''better'' cut (in my system) diamonds to consumers who received beautiful diamonds. Several firms still use the AGA-CERT report in the Philadelphia region although I sold the company to my employee, Chris DiCamillo in Jan 08, well over a year ago and before the crash. We hardly saw it coming.

What we must disagree on is that the AGA Cut Class grades are by virtue of my expertise, ''facts''. In a courtroom, ONLY an expert can express an opinion and have it given the weight of ''Facts''. Opinions provided by laymen or those without credentials as experts are not allowed to be given in recorded testimony. I realize that my ''facts'' may not correspond 100% with the ''facts'' provided by other ''experts'', but they are provided with impartiality and without bias. You may have what you might consider better facts, but you have never once shared them here about what makes a diamond a beautiful and well fashioned stone. You, instead, offer the suggestion that you know, but you are going to keep it to yourself. It is really a nearly humorous position you have chosen. The expert who claims to know more than another expert, but when the game is played out and the cards are to be put on the table, you don''t show your cards. How will anyone watching this play out know who has the better hand? Admittedly, there is no money in the pot, so it won''t matter to me or to you, but those who read this thread really would like to know the basis of your frequent claims about diamonds cut outside the norm becoming orphans due to false facts being promoted by me and by many others. Show us what you got! We''d love to know more and everyone would like to see what you might offer. I have a very open mind about learning more. I''m not annoyed, but criticism without constructive advice seems rather empty.

HI David,
Sorry I''m only now responding - I had missed this till DF kindly reminded me! Thanks DF!

To answer the last part of your statement- I have thought a lot about this, and there is no simple answer.
For me, the problem relates to sellers that grade the cut of stones - sometimes totally arbitrarily, and other times based on a set of numbers that may be similar to the ones you devised.
For example,I believe we agree that the term "ideal" is abused by many sites and stores without basis.
I know you have an open mind David- so you can understand the basis of my concern.
For you to soften the manner in which you describe your grades might satisfy what I''m referring to, but that might dull what you are trying to achieve. there''s no easy answer..but I''m pondereing!

Onto the other part of your post, and demonstrating what I believe is a good cut: The answer relates to the entire conversation, and your cut grading system.
If cut quality could be translated into numbers- such as on a cut grade chart- that would eliminate any subjective judgement.
Since many of the diamonds I''ve seen that I found to me remarkable in terms of cut fall outside many of the cut charts, it calls the cut charts into question based on my experience.
I''ve personally shown two beautiful diamonds, one doing well on ASET/IS, the other not so- and me preferring the second. I would not base my buying on a chart, or ASET/IS....although we''d be happy to provide them if requested.
I also feel it''s important to point out that I do not feel that any dealer using the ASET/IS is wrong in doing so- it''s just a matter pf personal taste.

What DO I consider well cut diamonds to be?
A case by case basis. Each stone must be evaluated on it''s own merits.
In many ways, it''s "easier" with round diamonds. The acceptable range of table depth is narrower, plus GIA now grades the cut. A pear shape can take countless forms, while a round is round. unless it''s out of round, but that would eliminate it from a discussion of well cut diamonds.

With fancy shapes, throw all the preconceived notions about table depth out the window.
Especially fancy colored fancy shapes.
That''s why the charts don''t work for me at all. I''m looking at large quantities of diamonds- some very unusual ones- mostly fancy shapes. If a stone is visually appealing yet downgraded due to a chart who should I trust?
( PS- one suggestion did occur to me- is there a place your chart David, that mentions fancy colors, and that they are not judged in the same manner as colorless?)

Say it''s a 3 carat L/Si2 radiant that happens to face beautifully, and it''s eye clean but it''s downgraded by the cut grade chart. Say there''s no vivible deficit in the cut? What''s wrong with that diamond?
If we''re shopping for a .50 G/Si1 there''s going to be thousands of choices on the market. Any doubt move onto the next.
More unique stones need to be judged in a different manner, case by case.

How do I demonstrate what I''m talking about? With extensive descriptions, photos and videos on our site.
And here when applicable and neccesary.

 

[hlmr]

Here's my input since we are talking about bias.....

I have made several purchases over the years from many vendors, and I have also defended vendors that are posting in this thread, in years gone by, that I felt were being unfairly targeted.

To me, reputation is everything, and bias is a direct result of this, and good/bad customer service.

I have purchased from several PS vendors, and have been happy. I also have, in the past, (several years ago), been close to making a purchase from Barry/Judah's company, but did not, because of how I was treated there. (eh!)

Therefore, I now have a bias. I am sure most would concur this is a logical consequence of circumstance.

I am posting this in direct response to Judah's thread, wanting to discuss bias.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 7/24/2009 10:07:13 PM
Author: Sam82
Just to keep things in perspective, the issue with Barry/Excel happened about 5 years ago. So, how much bearing does it have on today?

A lot actually, David(dbl) posts and now some but to a lesser degree by Judah display the fundamental difference in opinion that caused the mess in the first place.
That was and is the consumers place in the jewelery industry.
On one side you had people who wanted the trade in charge and on the other you had PS and Leonid''s philosophy of power to the people.
It was and is that fundamental.
I was glad to see Judah here because I never considered Barry to be one of the bad guys. While he did say some rather not nice things about me over the years I just chalked it up to being bitter over how things worked out.
He was on the fence on the issue and at the wrong time got ticked off over something else and it drove him to the other side.

It turns out Leonid was right and P.S. thrived and developed into a community that grew larger than anyone suspected it would at the time.

That is all I am going to say about that mess back then, a lot of good people got hurt.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 7/24/2009 10:27:10 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

Date: 7/24/2009 2:06:55 PM
Author: oldminer
RD: I am responding to your following statment:

'For example: I have NO doubt that David Atlas designed his cut grade charts to aid consumers, the best way HE knows how.
However, the cut grades are opinions presented as facts.'


I did create these charts to help the consumer and my local retailers for whom we made many diamond grading reports. A few of these retailers made extensive use of reports with these cut grades and successfully marketed 'better' cut (in my system) diamonds to consumers who received beautiful diamonds. Several firms still use the AGA-CERT report in the Philadelphia region although I sold the company to my employee, Chris DiCamillo in Jan 08, well over a year ago and before the crash. We hardly saw it coming.

What we must disagree on is that the AGA Cut Class grades are by virtue of my expertise, 'facts'. In a courtroom, ONLY an expert can express an opinion and have it given the weight of 'Facts'. Opinions provided by laymen or those without credentials as experts are not allowed to be given in recorded testimony. I realize that my 'facts' may not correspond 100% with the 'facts' provided by other 'experts', but they are provided with impartiality and without bias. You may have what you might consider better facts, but you have never once shared them here about what makes a diamond a beautiful and well fashioned stone. You, instead, offer the suggestion that you know, but you are going to keep it to yourself. It is really a nearly humorous position you have chosen. The expert who claims to know more than another expert, but when the game is played out and the cards are to be put on the table, you don't show your cards. How will anyone watching this play out know who has the better hand? Admittedly, there is no money in the pot, so it won't matter to me or to you, but those who read this thread really would like to know the basis of your frequent claims about diamonds cut outside the norm becoming orphans due to false facts being promoted by me and by many others. Show us what you got! We'd love to know more and everyone would like to see what you might offer. I have a very open mind about learning more. I'm not annoyed, but criticism without constructive advice seems rather empty.

HI David,
Sorry I'm only now responding - I had missed this till DF kindly reminded me! Thanks DF!

To answer the last part of your statement- I have thought a lot about this, and there is no simple answer.
For me, the problem relates to sellers that grade the cut of stones - sometimes totally arbitrarily, and other times based on a set of numbers that may be similar to the ones you devised.
For example,I believe we agree that the term 'ideal' is abused by many sites and stores without basis.
I know you have an open mind David- so you can understand the basis of my concern.
For you to soften the manner in which you describe your grades might satisfy what I'm referring to, but that might dull what you are trying to achieve. there's no easy answer..but I'm pondereing!

Onto the other part of your post, and demonstrating what I believe is a good cut: The answer relates to the entire conversation, and your cut grading system.
If cut quality could be translated into numbers- such as on a cut grade chart- that would eliminate any subjective judgement.
Since many of the diamonds I've seen that I found to me remarkable in terms of cut fall outside many of the cut charts, it calls the cut charts into question based on my experience.
I've personally shown two beautiful diamonds, one doing well on ASET/IS, the other not so- and me preferring the second. I would not base my buying on a chart, or ASET/IS....although we'd be happy to provide them if requested.
I also feel it's important to point out that I do not feel that any dealer using the ASET/IS is wrong in doing so- it's just a matter pf personal taste.

What DO I consider well cut diamonds to be?
A case by case basis. Each stone must be evaluated on it's own merits.
In many ways, it's 'easier' with round diamonds. The acceptable range of table depth is narrower, plus GIA now grades the cut. A pear shape can take countless forms, while a round is round. unless it's out of round, but that would eliminate it from a discussion of well cut diamonds.

With fancy shapes, throw all the preconceived notions about table depth out the window.
Especially fancy colored fancy shapes.
That's why the charts don't work for me at all. I'm looking at large quantities of diamonds- some very unusual ones- mostly fancy shapes. If a stone is visually appealing yet downgraded due to a chart who should I trust?
( PS- one suggestion did occur to me- is there a place your chart David, that mentions fancy colors, and that they are not judged in the same manner as colorless?)

Say it's a 3 carat L/Si2 radiant that happens to face beautifully, and it's eye clean but it's downgraded by the cut grade chart. Say there's no vivible deficit in the cut? What's wrong with that diamond?
If we're shopping for a .50 G/Si1 there's going to be thousands of choices on the market. Any doubt move onto the next.
More unique stones need to be judged in a different manner, case by case.

How do I demonstrate what I'm talking about? With extensive descriptions, photos and videos on our site.
And here when applicable and neccesary.

RD,

Post after post of yours is made defnding your website or in favour how you choose stones or how you present information.

1) Your website does not provide a quantitative nor qualitative way of comparing stones.
2) You are not simply presenting stones(like pretty much EVERY vendor's website on here). You are presenting them in a "VERY BIASED" way and trying to sell them.
3) Many of your stones don't stand on their own mertis you have to give big long winded explanations why disregarding their flaws they are beautiful to you.
4) Your videos are done often in bright spot lighting and are designed to show the diamonds in its best possible appearnace just like B&M stores and this is certainly very deceptive.
5) Then on top of this you come on here constantly trying to knock quantitative models, charts, numerical estimations of safe diamonds. You are one of the few vendors here who is BLATANTLY biased and I truly feel sorry for your customers as you give the distinct impression here of an overwhelming and sickening bias.

Most of the bias's we talk about in these threads are poorly trained salespeople or miscommunication or a lack of information. You on the other hand have plenty of knowledge and are VERY selective in communicating this knowledge. To the point where none of us really understand if you even have a pragmatic approach to diamond selection your constant "I trust my eyes" approach and your constant defense of ignoring all other factors really is offensive and you never fail to make your unsupported opinion known especially in threads like these.

RD "Your eyes and taste as reflected by your website DO NOT APPEAL to the masses!!!" this is probably why you try to sell your diamonds so hard here and on your website.

I can say easily that I dislike pretty much every cushion cut diamond you have on your entire site and it would be easy:

i) I want a colourless diamond
ii)I want a GIA certificate
iii_I don't want a Daussi Cushion (it easy to see why we had an entire long thread about glassy looking and bowties with respect to these)
iv)I don't want some ugly purple inclusions all over the face of a 3.05Ct stone
v) I don't want a cushion that has 73.4% depth or 53% depth no matter how pretty you say it is
vi) I don't want a brown tinted diamond either

I have seen some of the ugliest cushions I have ever seen in my life on your site. I have to hand it to you though the picture and video photography is excellent on your site. You put these diamonds in the best possible light.

I can pretty much guess your niche is coloured, antique, or "unique" fancy diamonds and that is fine for a certain subset of consumers. But I don't get what your purpose is here constantly posting about "throwing all the numbers and tests out the window on fancy diamonds". If they are buying your one of kind diamonds then you would likely not have someone having a debate with you over Good Symmetry or Depth Percentages they are just going to trust your eyes or their eyes and go "Wow Pretty I will Buy It". I do feel sorry for the novice or someone who knows a little bit who might stumble upon your store or site and be told to end their education as you like to tear down any patterns or safe ranges that may have been given to them. I really wonder if you take your "unique cushion" and show them this stone up against cushion brilliant stones that are often praised on here to see which one they truly like.

I have written so many replies to your posts here and left them unsent as I thought the better of it. Your comments on prosumers and how they should have a warning signatures like "I think most diamond vendors are crooks" really struck a nerve with me.

If you like I will change my signature to:

I trust most Pricescope vendors, cutters, prosumers, posters and appraisers here to try to give educational and unbiased information in most cases. The only exception is Rock Diamond and his site Diamonds By Lauren. I wouldn't even consider buying from them nor would I take seriously the highly biased information he posts here.

 

[Moh 10]

snip

A story by Hans Christian Andersen.

An emperor hires two tailors who promise to make him a set of remarkable new clothes that will be invisible to anyone who is either incompetent or stupid.
When the emperor goes to see his new clothes, he sees nothing at all — for the tailors are swindlers and there aren't any clothes.

Afraid of being judged incompetent or stupid, the emperor pretends to be delighted with the new clothes and “wears” them in a grand parade through the town.
Everyone else also pretends to see them, until a child yells out, “He hasn't got any clothes on!”

People who point out the emptiness of the pretensions of powerful people and institutions are often compared to the child who says that the emperor has no clothes.


http://www.answers.com/topic/the-emperor-s-new-clothes

 

[coda72]

I am a consumer; I don't consider myself a prosumer. I have nothing to gain by recommending specific diamonds. It was all done out of the goodness of my heart. But some vendors don't appreciate or understand that, and those vendors will never receive any recommendations from me, let alone me buying a diamond from them.