A Discussion On Bias

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 7/25/2009 2:59:59 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 7/25/2009 1:29:25 AM
Author: Richard Sherwood

I believe we''re seeing it take place here, within the principle of free speech, where everybody states their opinion, and then it is left to the individual to decide. I don''t think anyone should be shut down or shouted down or black-balled. I think everyone has the right to put forth their opinion, and I am so glad to see this Pricescope administration allowing it without undue censorship or banning.

Letting the very few trade people who think they can act like jerks and run over consumers remain here is no answer.
That was tried at another forum and was as expected a huge failure.

I was going to refrain from commenting on this topic anymore, but Storm, this comment you made kept bothering me.

If you are talking about the banning of members for speaking their minds on issues, I am in total disagreement with you. I hope this never happens. It runs against all the principles of democracy. We have seen it happen before and it was a huge failure as well.

It''s always better to let people speak their minds and hash things out than it is to suppress free speech via censorship or banning. It might be painful for a while, but in the end it is the better way to go. I think this thread exemplifies that principle. It might be hot and heavy for a while, but in the end everybody grows from it.

If you subtract input for one reason or another, you take away something that is very important in the fabric of our way of life. Freedom of speech, freedom to express opinions, no matter how unpopular.

I would hope that is not what you were talking about here.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 7/26/2009 9:27:40 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood

If you are talking about the banning of members for speaking their minds on issues, I am in total disagreement with you. I hope this never happens. It runs against all the principles of democracy. We have seen it happen before and it was a huge failure as well.


It''s always better to let people speak their minds and hash things out than it is to suppress free speech via censorship or banning. It might be painful for a while, but in the end it is the better way to go. I think this thread exemplifies that principle. It might be hot and heavy for a while, but in the end everybody grows from it.


If you subtract input for one reason or another, you take away something that is very important in the fabric of our way of life. Freedom of speech, freedom to express opinions, no matter how unpopular.


I would hope that is not what you were talking about here.

With freedom comes responsibility and freedom has limits.
For example your right to swing your arms ends to my nose.
Go beyond that point and it is a crime.
That is why we have slander and libel laws and it is illegal to yell fire in a theater.

The same way someones right to post in a community ends when they are disruptive to that community and harm others.
A community has a right and an obligation to protect itself from those that show they can not be there without breaking the rules or bring harm to others or the community itself.
This community has expectations of behavior that are a condition of posting here.

 

[Modified Brilliant]

Just got back from NY tonight and haven''t checked in since Friday and wow has this thread evolved!
Looks like it''s gonna be a late night catching up with my reading

www.metrojewelryappraisers.com

 

[Moh 10]

Just read my posts and skip the rest.

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 7/26/2009 4:39:00 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
HI Ccl- if I wanted a good reason to return to the thread, I just got one.

Thank you VERY much.

Believe me, I am not anxious to argue with you - or anyone.

I sincerely thank you for the wonderfully constructive criticism.

We have made a lot of effort to add as much info to the DBL site as possible.

Anyway, thanks for having and open mind CCL and throwing something positive into the discussion.

So, RD you threw your "I''m leaving the sandpit" tanty.
But you didn''t actually leave the thread - you''re just instead stalking the thread,
and only responding to posts which further your agenda.

And ignoring the posts about your behaviour which don''t.

In my opinion, you owe Treefrog an apology for twisting his analogy so grossly.
But I have very little confidence you''ll deliver. As another poster said, it''s always someone else''s fault with you and your rude behaviour, and frankly I for one am inclined to agree with Moh that your contributions on the board are bridging on troll level.

The VICTIM game became tired many posts ago - please try to read the criticisms of those who have been more eloquent and reserved in their replies than I, and start acting like a professional on PS.

Or don''t - it''s only you who''s losing the "many thousands of dollars" in good press that Judah spoke of when starting this thread.

 

[risingsun]

Date: 7/26/2009 9:58:01 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 7/26/2009 9:27:40 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood

If you are talking about the banning of members for speaking their minds on issues, I am in total disagreement with you. I hope this never happens. It runs against all the principles of democracy. We have seen it happen before and it was a huge failure as well.


It''s always better to let people speak their minds and hash things out than it is to suppress free speech via censorship or banning. It might be painful for a while, but in the end it is the better way to go. I think this thread exemplifies that principle. It might be hot and heavy for a while, but in the end everybody grows from it.


If you subtract input for one reason or another, you take away something that is very important in the fabric of our way of life. Freedom of speech, freedom to express opinions, no matter how unpopular.


I would hope that is not what you were talking about here.

With freedom comes responsibility and freedom has limits.
For example your right to swing your arms ends to my nose.
Go beyond that point and it is a crime.
That is why we have slander and libel laws and it is illegal to yell fire in a theater.

The same way someones right to post in a community ends when they are disruptive to that community and harm others.
A community has a right and an obligation to protect itself from those that show they can not be there without breaking the rules or bring harm to others or the community itself.
This community has expectations of behavior that are a condition of posting here.

I must agree with Strm on this. Communities have standards/norms of behavior. If someone consistently violates these norms, they are informed and asked to moderate their behavior. Depending upon the community, there may be a great deal of latitude regarding this moderation. I think that PS does allow for and encourages diverse opinions. When the individual continues to be disruptive, defensive, and corrosive to the community, there needs to be an option for setting healthy boundaries and limits with that person. If that fails, then they may lose their posting privileges. The individual does have an obligation to be a responsible member of the community.

 

[Kaleigh]

Date: 7/26/2009 11:20:30 PM
Author: risingsun

Date: 7/26/2009 9:58:01 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 7/26/2009 9:27:40 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood

If you are talking about the banning of members for speaking their minds on issues, I am in total disagreement with you. I hope this never happens. It runs against all the principles of democracy. We have seen it happen before and it was a huge failure as well.


It''s always better to let people speak their minds and hash things out than it is to suppress free speech via censorship or banning. It might be painful for a while, but in the end it is the better way to go. I think this thread exemplifies that principle. It might be hot and heavy for a while, but in the end everybody grows from it.


If you subtract input for one reason or another, you take away something that is very important in the fabric of our way of life. Freedom of speech, freedom to express opinions, no matter how unpopular.


I would hope that is not what you were talking about here.

With freedom comes responsibility and freedom has limits.
For example your right to swing your arms ends to my nose.
Go beyond that point and it is a crime.
That is why we have slander and libel laws and it is illegal to yell fire in a theater.

The same way someones right to post in a community ends when they are disruptive to that community and harm others.
A community has a right and an obligation to protect itself from those that show they can not be there without breaking the rules or bring harm to others or the community itself.
This community has expectations of behavior that are a condition of posting here.

I must agree with Strm on this. Communities have standards/norms of behavior. If someone consistently violates these norms, they are informed and asked to moderate their behavior. Depending upon the community, there may be a great deal of latitude regarding this moderation. I think that PS does allow for and encourages diverse opinions. When the individual continues to be disruptive, defensive, and corrosive to the community, there needs to be an option for setting healthy boundaries and limits with that person. If that fails, then they may lose their posting privileges. The individual does have an obligation to be a responsible member of the community.

+2 Well said..

 

[Serg]

Date: 7/26/2009 9:58:01 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 7/26/2009 9:27:40 PM

Author: Richard Sherwood


If you are talking about the banning of members for speaking their minds on issues, I am in total disagreement with you. I hope this never happens. It runs against all the principles of democracy. We have seen it happen before and it was a huge failure as well.



It's always better to let people speak their minds and hash things out than it is to suppress free speech via censorship or banning. It might be painful for a while, but in the end it is the better way to go. I think this thread exemplifies that principle. It might be hot and heavy for a while, but in the end everybody grows from it.



If you subtract input for one reason or another, you take away something that is very important in the fabric of our way of life. Freedom of speech, freedom to express opinions, no matter how unpopular.



I would hope that is not what you were talking about here.

With freedom comes responsibility and freedom has limits.

For example your right to swing your arms ends to my nose.

Go beyond that point and it is a crime.

That is why we have slander and libel laws and it is illegal to yell fire in a theater.


The same way someones right to post in a community ends when they are disruptive to that community and harm others.

A community has a right and an obligation to protect itself from those that show they can not be there without breaking the rules or bring harm to others or the community itself.

This community has expectations of behavior that are a condition of posting here.

there were different parts of communities on PS. now AGS&H&A part is most strongest , this part of PS community does not happy see any other opinion .

I was very happy with PS 3-5 years ago. I was welcome on PS. We had nice discussions on technical issues .
I am not welcome more. When I am trying publish in last years My opinion on PS about ASG system, "ideal diamonds", vendors tricks who sale ""
ideal diamonds' I have very aggressive feedback from different levels of PS communities in different ways ( by posts, by private emails, by private calls, my private meetings .) It is very high pressure for me , it eats a lot of time . I can not spend so many time to defense my position , it is reason why my posts are more and more rare on PS.

I become PS dissident

Last examples:
1) ASG Platinum System
2) Infinity I1 diamonds

If I publish my opinion about GIA cut grade system , PS community is happy. nobody say what i break any rules. But when I touched ASG or PS 'ideal diamonds'
vendors I immediately message as:
1) You has not rights publish it because you are trade( You are AGS competitor)
2) You break PS rules
3) You should not publish about one vendor only, You SHOULD COMPARE different PS vendors and give examples from outside PS too( for example HoF,..). ( Sorry it is to much work for me. Why should I do it free of charge?)
4) please publish about EGL, IGI, HoF GOG,..
6) You are too negative, you need follow American style, be more polite and nice.( But I am barbarian and I am proud in this )
7) You are pro GOG( seems these persons did not read my 2-3 years old posts)

others and others by emails, calls, posts. PS is not comfortable place for me more. Early I was very happy to spend time in PS


In beginning PS was very innovative site, PS community was open for new ideas. Now a lot of "new experts" have vision what they know ENOUGH about cut, what Best Safe diamonds are most important for consumers ( "if you buy ASG0 , H&A from PS vendor you can be sure in Highest performance, quality, service,..")


PS community protects itself from experts as me, PS protects current status quo( current safe position)
Is good balance for PS between freedom and responsibility ?
I do not think so.

I Think it is good just for person who can not except what ASG0&H&A&ASET is just:
1) Simplification in cut grading ( it is just cheapest way now to receive safe and good result for consumer)
2) first big step in understanding cut performance ( a lot of other steps should come latter)

 

[Serg]

"Author: Richard Sherwood


If you are talking about the banning of members for speaking their minds on issues, I am in total disagreement with you. I hope this never happens. It runs against all the principles of democracy. We have seen it happen before and it was a huge failure as well."


I want add some analogy for Richard post


Banning of members is similar to kill man without court in real word. I do not except statements from Admin any forums ; " It is my forum I have rights do what I want" If you invited people to build city and you become sheriff ( king) , you have not rights latter to kill "bad people" without court( of course you can do it if you have enough power )

 

[strmrdr]

Serg,
I do not disagree with a lot of your position when it comes to many technical areas.

But I do think that the biggest change in the last 2-3 years is the level of professionalism expected has increased.
That has increased the work load for someone who wants to make a point or explore new ideas.
I spent weeks on journal articles rather than just throwing it out there on the forum so believe me I know.
It is also a good thing in my opinion.
Many people have stepped up to meet the challenge both trade and pro-sumers and consumers.
It makes PS a better place.

Btw I agree with the following as do many people here.
I love to explore the areas beyond it and do so, some of which I post here some I don't.
I would not use the word cheapest however.
It has caught on because it is easy for people to understand and use and it works fairly well.


ASG0&H&A&ASET is just:
1) Simplification in cut grading ( it is just cheapest way now to receive safe and good result for consumer)
2) first big step in understanding cut performance ( a lot of other steps should come latter)

Add HCA and IS to the list to be fair.
Garry designed them with the intent to bring cut grading to the masses and he did.

ASG0 & H&A & ASET do the same.
None of them are perfect but they do add useful information.
None of them are the final answer on diamond cut.

 

[Serg]

Date: 7/27/2009 5:55:59 AM
Author: strmrdr
Serg,

I do not disagree with a lot of your position when it comes to many technical areas.


But I do think that the biggest change in the last 2-3 years is the level of professionalism expected has increased.

That has increased the work load for someone who wants to make a point or explore new ideas.

I spent weeks on journal articles rather than just throwing it out there on the forum so believe me I know.

It is also a good thing in my opinion.

Many people have stepped up to meet the challenge both trade and pro-sumers and consumers.

It makes PS a better place.


Btw I agree with the following as do many people here.

I love to explore the areas beyond it and do so, some of which I post here some I don't.

I would not use the word cheapest however.

It has caught on because it is easy for people to understand and use and it works fairly well.



ASG0&H&A&ASET is just:

1) Simplification in cut grading ( it is just cheapest way now to receive safe and good result for consumer)

2) first big step in understanding cut performance ( a lot of other steps should come latter)


Add HCA and IS to the list to be fair.

Garry designed them with the intent to bring cut grading to the masses and he did.

ASG0 & H&A & ASET do the same.

None of them are perfect but they do add useful information.

None of them are the final answer on diamond cut.

Karl,
there is huge gape between Professionalism and simple using Tools as ASET, IS, HCA, VFs, AGS0, LR, ..
Professionals know Limitations such Tools.
"New PS Experts" usually have not any ideas about such Limitations , they sure what they are skiable persons just because use ASET or IS.
You do not need high skills to use ASET

You see more profesionals on PS in last 2-3 years and PS is better for you.
I see less professional discussions on PS in last 2-3 years and PS is worse for me
I am boring to see same discussions about ASET, IS images last years. There are NEW IDEAS, Informations, Knowledge ?

If you see more professionals on PS, where are New IDeas, Instruments had been Invented by these Persons?
Bruce Harding, Marty Hasky, Michael Cowing are more rare on PS now too.

 

[oldminer]

Pricescope has not scared away professionals. It is some of the professionals who can't figure how to act sociably on a public forum who have found it most difficult to work on Pricescope. That is their own fault, not Pricescope's. People, professional or amateurs, who come here to pick fights, to argue, who only criticize but refuse to share positive knowledge are the ones who end up getting bashed by Pricescope participants who can see their rather ugly agenda after a while. I can't say I blame them for bashing these people who don't know how to politely interact with other folks.

Many good people who are highly intelligent and on the forefront of technological innovation are horrible at social interaction. It is their curse to live with. It is one of the things which holds back progress.

The current tools which we use for screening today will be footnotes on the historical calendar of diamond grading ten years from now. There is far better for grading coming down the pike, but popular knowledge is currently driving Pricescope participants and we can't expect them all to know about grading tools that are not yet in mass use. If we keep our cool and share what we can during this interim period, we will be able to positively influence the future of the diamond business. That's the goal I have set for myself and I am willing to wade through the swamp to get there. Not everyone has the time, patience, energy or the words to do it. We certainly can understand that some experts feels a high frustration level, but it is not Pricescope causing it. Frustation today is mostly due to the lousy business atmosphere and I admit to that sort of frustration myself.

 

[Modified Brilliant]

Date: 7/27/2009 8:06:35 AM
Author: oldminer
Pricescope has not scared away professionals. It is some of the professionals who can''t figure how to act sociably on a public forum who have found it most difficult to work on Pricescope. That is their own fault, not Pricescope''s. People, professional or amateurs, who come here to pick fights, to argue, who only criticize but refuse to share positive knowledge are the ones who end up getting bashed by Pricescope participants who can see their rather ugly agenda after a while. I can''t say I blame them for bashing these people who don''t know how to politely interact with other folks.

Many good people who are highly intelligent and on the forefront of technological innovation are horrible at social interaction. It is their curse to live with. It is one of the things which holds back progress.

The current tools which we use for screening today will be footnotes on the historical calendar of diamond grading ten years from now. There is far better for grading coming down the pike, but popular knowledge is currently driving Pricescope participants and we can''t expect them all to know about grading tools that are not yet in mass use. If we keep our cool and share what we can during this interim period, we will be able to positively influence the future of the diamond business. That''s the goal I have set for myself and I am willing to wade through the swamp to get there. Not everyone has the time, patience, energy or the words to do it. We certainly can understand that some experts feels a high frustration level, but it is not Pricescope causing it. Frustation today is mostly due to the lousy business atmosphere and I admit to that sort of frustration myself.

David...your statements reflect the "voice of reason."

We all have different ways of expressing ourselves in real life using our voices, gestures, mannerisims, etc.
All that is "visible" is lost on the internet.
And I totally agree that Pricescope does not cause the frustration. Each one of us controls what we do within our own four walls.
We cannot control the economy, gas prices, world crisis, etc, but we can control how each one of us conducts our business and acts in a public forum.
I actually enjoy the challenge of searching for ways to better myself and my business and create good "karma" for all.
I believe most of us here feel the same way.

www.metrojewelryappraisers.com

 

[Serg]

Date: 7/27/2009 8:06:35 AM
Author: oldminer
Pricescope has not scared away professionals. It is some of the professionals who can''t figure how to act sociably on a public forum who have found it most difficult to work on Pricescope. That is their own fault, not Pricescope''s. People, professional or amateurs, who come here to pick fights, to argue, who only criticize but refuse to share positive knowledge are the ones who end up getting bashed by Pricescope participants who can see their rather ugly agenda after a while. I can''t say I blame them for bashing these people who don''t know how to politely interact with other folks.


Many good people who are highly intelligent and on the forefront of technological innovation are horrible at social interaction. It is their curse to live with. It is one of the things which holds back progress.


The current tools which we use for screening today will be footnotes on the historical calendar of diamond grading ten years from now. There is far better for grading coming down the pike, but popular knowledge is currently driving Pricescope participants and we can''t expect them all to know about grading tools that are not yet in mass use. If we keep our cool and share what we can during this interim period, we will be able to positively influence the future of the diamond business. That''s the goal I have set for myself and I am willing to wade through the swamp to get there. Not everyone has the time, patience, energy or the words to do it. We certainly can understand that some experts feels a high frustration level, but it is not Pricescope causing it. Frustation today is mostly due to the lousy business atmosphere and I admit to that sort of frustration myself.

re:Many good people who are highly intelligent and on the forefront of technological innovation are horrible at social interaction

Dave,

Do you know reason?
Do you think " diamond trade " could be happy with innovation process?
Usually something real new can not come without a lot of conflicts .

You can easy say It is not PS problems, but it does not help PS to give different opinions for consumers, to find new beautiful cuts, to develop new services, to find reasons of current problems in diamonds industry.

I can easy be nice and stop publish information about problems in current cut gradings systems, about trade tricks and mistakes.
Will it helpful for PS? for Consumers ?

Do you think what professional criticism is easy job?
Do you think life and business will better without criticism ? why do you think what criticism has not positive knowledge ?

 

[echelon6]

Date: 7/27/2009 9:41:14 AM
Author: Serg

re:Many good people who are highly intelligent and on the forefront of technological innovation are horrible at social interaction


Dave,


Do you know reason?

Do you think '' diamond trade '' could be happy with innovation process?

Usually something real new can not come without a lot of conflicts .


You can easy say It is not PS problems, but it does not help PS to give different opinions for consumers, to find new beautiful cuts, to develop new services, to find reasons of current problems in diamonds industry.


I can easy be nice and stop publish information about problems in current cut gradings systems, about trade tricks and mistakes.

Will it helpful for PS? for Consumers ?


Do you think what professional criticism is easy job?

Do you think life and business will better without criticism ? why do you think what criticism has not positive knowledge ?

Serg, I''ve been reading your replies to this thread and I wholly agree with your perspective. I''m a consumer who joined the PS community in late 06 and recently returned, having noticed the change in the PS landscape, and the loss of some experts that used to post here regularly but don''t anymore. It''s a real shame.

Please continue the good work you do.

 

[oldminer]

re:Many good people who are highly intelligent and on the forefront of technological innovation are horrible at social interaction

Dave,

Do you know reason?
Do you think " diamond trade " could be happy with innovation process?
Usually something real new can not come without a lot of conflicts .

You can easy say It is not PS problems, but it does not help PS to give different opinions for consumers, to find new beautiful cuts, to develop new services, to find reasons of current problems in diamonds industry.

I can easy be nice and stop publish information about problems in current cut gradings systems, about trade tricks and mistakes.
Will it helpful for PS? for Consumers ?

Do you think what professional criticism is easy job?
Do you think life and business will better without criticism ? why do you think what criticism has not positive knowledge ?




Sergey;

I has been my pleasure to have met you in person and I believe I understand your approach and personality better than those who have never had the opportunity to meet you in this personal way. I agree 100% that it is best to have the information presented to consumers and one must simply be prepared to be criticized. The diamond business absolutely revolts at rapid change. We have had a great deal of acceptance on Pricescope for modest changes which to the outside retailer jewelry business look like huge changes when in fact, they are just first steps in far larger things to come.

Life is NOT better without criticism. I encourgae CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, but detest negative criticism left without better advice. The "I know better than anyone else" attitude results in bashing by other participants and makes those who offer negative advice eventually leave the community. I have often offered constructive advice and have been bashed many times, but I bounce back with positive replies. Those who have left Pricescope because they could not take the bashing often have little positive to offer, have very limited time to waste on fruitless arguments, or just can't express themselves well enough to win the debates. Again, this is not Pricescope policy, but the war of words, the process of sharing ideas in an open forum which is difficult. Not everyone comes equally to the debate table. Some of the finest minds and technicians who no longer participate were unable to win their arguments because they were unable to express themselves, unable to deflect criticism of new ideas, had a poor approach, held strangely biased views or were the kind of people best left in a dark lab somewhere not interacting with others. The lack of socail skills in a conversation really hurts some wonderful progress. On the topic of the thread, "BIAS", we do get those who are biased and they MUST be criticized when they are incorrectly advising others.

I want consumers to find beautiful cuts in unexpected places and in strange parameters. I want people to screen diamonds with all the tools we now have and I want them to think about the tools of the future, too. I have spoken about problems in current grading systems and problems of lab uniformity. I have mentioned many times resistance of the trade to new ideas and to change. I have been occasionally bashed, but did not blame Pricescope or leave the site with injured feelings. I turned the negativity into further threads with more explanations and common sense combined with scientific reality. Instead of becoming disenchanted, I became able to make my points although I allow that there is plenty of room for intelligent and polite disagreement. I promise I am not correct 100% of the time. No one is.

We see things differently, but it is the same reality. If you had someone with fine English and Russian language skills dedicated to learning what is inside your mind who was able to express themselves on a daily basis on Pricescope on your behalf, you would have many, many more followers and believers here. This might not really be important to you and it would be a costly thing to do it. I see no immediate financial gain, either. However, I still can't put Pricescope as the root cause of the problems you see. Sorry, but that's the way I personally see it.
I can't imagine Andrey scheming to make Pricescope an unwelcoming place for great minds, or great advisors. No doubt, we are all glad certain guys have left participation here. Maybe we won't agree on which ones as we have personal favorites we have left behind, I suppose. There are a few who were of great value and that's a shame for all of us, but it is up to the individual to participate for free or to let it go.

 

[Moh 10]

Internet fora are the latest sociological petri dishes.

Humans have evolved for zillions of years communicating only in person.
Swedish researchers using CAT scans were surprised to discover that when a persons talks on a phone the section of the brain that processes VISUAL information lights up and goes crazy.
Apparently the brain is looking for input from they eyes to determine whom the voice is coming from - friend or foe.
It's involuntary and makes sense on an evolutionary level.

BTW, that's' why hands-free cellphones don't make driving while talking on the phone any safer.
The visual center of the brain is occupied with the call and not as available to see that hazard ahead.

I think interacting with people on an Internet forum is kind of similar.
We grew up learning rules of social interaction and communication that are not adequate for a Internet fora where people are anonymous and are not there to punch you in the nose.

Much of communication in person is eye contact, body language, facial expressions, voice inflection and pauses.
All that is missing here.
Words get misinterpreted.
Posters get frustrated and tempers flare.

We all tend to surround ourselves with people who are similar to us.
On an Internet forum we have to mix with people we wish weren't here.
It's tough.

Functioning effectively on an Internet forum is practically like learning new language.
Plus each forum forms a unique culture with unwritten rules and expectations we may not agree with.
Individuals will work to shape the group as they see fit, but those who violate the unwritten rules are 'corrected' by the community.

I admire the pros who can be flexible enough to function here.
I can imagine the frustration when non-pros give bogus advice.
End of Moh-ramble.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 7/27/2009 11:08:32 AM
Author: Moh 10
I can imagine the frustration when non-pros give bogus advice.

There is a PS socially acceptable way to handle that.
Post your opinion in a professional and non-confrontational manner and explain why your information is good.
I do so when needed.
It is not that hard.

 

[Serg]

re:I can''t imagine Andrey scheming to make Pricescope an unwelcoming place for great minds, or great advisors.


David,
Andrew is not primarily reason of problem of course. Admin has big influence but also he has a lot of limitation and him mistakes are very critical in long way perspective.

I think The main reason of problem is "Bias ", they changed PS landscape. my feeling what some Biases have direct and direct support from PS vendors. ( I have not any facts to proof it, it is feeling based on Bias''s post and time what they spend in PS)

re: I have often offered constructive advice and have been bashed many times, but I bounce back with positive replies. Those who have left Pricescope because they could not take the bashing often have little positive to offer, have very limited time to waste on fruitless arguments, or just can''t express themselves well enough to win the debates.

You are appraiser , your work on PS could be profitable for your business even you need spend a lot of time in PS . Same for Vendors

I am researcher , I come to PS mainly to Find( crate during discussions ) new Ideas, to train my brain , to receive new information from experts and consumers.
I ready support PS community by ideas, explanations, eduction and I did it early.
But in last time I can not find or create new ideas on PS, my post create negative reaction from bias, I spent to much time to explain what I am not bad person,,,
PS is not profitable for me, I think other researchers have similar problem with current PS( I hope it is clear what researchers do not use PS to increase them business . PS can not do it for researcher )

So I disagree what some persons left PS only because they are antisocial persons or they can not win debates. I see other explanation PS is not profitable for researchers and PS is not more FUN for researchers .
I sure what I can win most debates from Bias , but I do not like spend any time for Bias, because I can spend time more interesting and profitable for me.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 7/27/2009 8:06:35 AM
Author: oldminer
Pricescope has not scared away professionals. It is some of the professionals who can't figure how to act sociably on a public forum who have found it most difficult to work on Pricescope. That is their own fault, not Pricescope's. People, professional or amateurs, who come here to pick fights, to argue, who only criticize but refuse to share positive knowledge are the ones who end up getting bashed by Pricescope participants who can see their rather ugly agenda after a while. I can't say I blame them for bashing these people who don't know how to politely interact with other folks.

Many good people who are highly intelligent and on the forefront of technological innovation are horrible at social interaction. It is their curse to live with. It is one of the things which holds back progress.

The current tools which we use for screening today will be footnotes on the historical calendar of diamond grading ten years from now. There is far better for grading coming down the pike, but popular knowledge is currently driving Pricescope participants and we can't expect them all to know about grading tools that are not yet in mass use. If we keep our cool and share what we can during this interim period, we will be able to positively influence the future of the diamond business. That's the goal I have set for myself and I am willing to wade through the swamp to get there. Not everyone has the time, patience, energy or the words to do it. We certainly can understand that some experts feels a high frustration level, but it is not Pricescope causing it. Frustation today is mostly due to the lousy business atmosphere and I admit to that sort of frustration myself.

HI everyone.
It seems that I was mistaken bowing out of the conversation as there are still valid points to discuss.
David, I disagree with the part of your statement in bold.
When I rejoined PS, a professional who is well thought of here gave me some advice.
"Don't ever discuss ASET/IS and you'll be ok" was the gist of it.

David- can you show me the professionals posting here who do not agree with the usage of ASET/IS or other methods being discussed commonly here?


Treefrog- if I did not make this entirely clear- I sincerely apologize if my post insulted you.

I may have used words or ideas others find confrontational. That may be the essence of a good exchange of ideas.
If everyone felt the same way, what discussion should we have?

Now a general question to the participants: If I disagree with something written by treefrog, am I allowed to discuss that?
I'm sorry if you don;t like the method I use in a discussion, thankfully, you can all speak for yourselves. Please respect my right to express mine- as the management of PS has most graciously allowed me to do.
HUGE kudo to PS management btw- Running a form like this is an incredibly difficult, and thankless task- and they are doing a remarkable job of it.

Storm you used the analogy of yelling fire in a threater- or the right to wave your arms as long as they don't hit someone.
I would respectfully suggest that an attack on an actual business is exactly that, while someone getting insulted at something written on a forum is not.

The hypothetical honest jeweler who stocks well cut diamonds in my example who may not use PS methods has a family. Employees. He pays taxes and is a member of the community- not a cyberspace community, an actual brick and mortar community. When a stone or deal gets knocked by other consumers, or prosumers- who may have done so arbitrarily, there may be REAL damage.
People can loose jobs.




I know Judah can take care of himself, but we're discussing here.
How can my questioning of an analogy compare to an actual threat, then follow through on an attempt to damage someone's actual business?
I like and respect Barry, and Judah- and would have no hesitation whatsoever recommending him or Judah to anyone. I've been reading PS a lot, and have not seen any problems at all with Excell.
Now that we've beaten to death my questioning the analogy of a very nice person whose profession we all admire, what about the issue of damaging a REAL business that has done nothing wrong?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 7/27/2009 11:08:32 AM
Author: Moh 10
Internet fora are the latest sociological petri dishes.

Humans have evolved for zillions of years communicating only in person.
Swedish researchers using CAT scans were surprised to discover that when a persons talks on a phone the section of the brain that processes VISUAL information lights up and goes crazy.
Apparently the brain is looking for input from they eyes to determine whom the voice is coming from - friend or foe.
It''s involuntary and makes sense on an evolutionary level.

BTW, that''s'' why hands-free cellphones don''t make driving while talking on the phone any safer.
The visual center of the brain is occupied with the call and not as available to see that hazard ahead.

I think interacting with people on an Internet forum is kind of similar.
We grew up learning rules of social interaction and communication that are not adequate for a Internet fora where people are anonymous and are not there to punch you in the nose.

Much of communication in person is eye contact, body language, facial expressions, voice inflection and pauses.
All that is missing here.
Words get misinterpreted.
Posters get frustrated and tempers flare.

We all tend to surround ourselves with people who are similar to us.
On an Internet forum we have to mix with people we wish weren''t here.
It''s tough.

Functioning effectively on an Internet forum is practically like learning new language.
Plus each forum forms a unique culture with unwritten rules and expectations we may not agree with.
Individuals will work to shape the group as they see fit, but those who violate the unwritten rules are ''corrected'' by the community.

I admire the pros who can be flexible enough to function here.
I can imagine the frustration when non-pros give bogus advice.
End of Moh-ramble.

Could it actually be that we agree Moh10?
That would make me very happy.
We both love pink diamonds- so we actually do have a lot in common.
GREAT post!!!

 

[Moh 10]

Date: 7/27/2009 1:26:38 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Could it actually be that we agree Moh10?

Well if we agree, then I must be wrong.

Hahahaha.
(Sorry; it was just sitting there.)

 

[Black Jade]

I agree with Moh10''s last post.

My husband, who has used the internet before it was even called that (he''s a computer technician) is always telling me not to ever jump to conclusions as to what people are saying on the web as there are no other cues to tell what they mean and its really easy to misinterpret/take offense.

I am a know-nothing here and have been following this thread for information about certain things that have been confusing me, so take what I have to say with a grain of salt, but I want to say I have been really surprised at all the animosity directed towards David (of DiamondsbyLauren). I can''t see what he said that was so offensive to so many and I didn''t see his reply to Treefrog''s firefighter post as dissing firefighters in some way, or even as dissing the ''prosumers'' who have been helpful to so many (including myself) and I''m very grateful). It jsut sounded to me as if he were following up on Rich''s very interesting post from the appraiser''s point of view about how it CAN happen that when you are going by numbers you can not only miss some pretty stones but also can make it seem as if a seller is being dishonest when he/she isn''t and as if something is wrong with a stone when it''s not. I have seen posts of David''s expressing this before as I surfed around the site and I don''t see why this is such a hot potato of an idea. It''s something I have noticed from the beginning of my involvement with this site as a CONsumer who wanted to be informed. Not seeing things is so hard that you do end up wanting to be completely safe and picking (as I have picked all three times I bought online, AGS000 stones that fit in with cut advisor). I''ve been happy with all the purchases but it''s frustrating to be aware that there are other stones out there that I might also like, probably for a better price (I am very price conscious). I see what look like really good deals when I use the PS search engine, offered by a large group of vendors who never get recommended (yet when I see threads showing stones bought from them, they often look beautiful). I also keep thinking that I have gotten two beautiful stones from BlueNile, a vendor that I have seen prospective buyers steered away from again and again because ''they don''t offer ASET images, etc). This is not hurting BlueNile, who are still the largest internet vendor of diamonds but sometimes I wonder if it is best serving the consumer/questioner as BlueNile DOES offer stones at pricepoints that Whiteflash and GOG etc don''t match, because they will offer smaller stones, for instance, if you happen to want a .25 or something like that and because they have large numbers of stones. I keep hearing people repeat here that BlueNile stones are not in-house and that they won''t look at them for you, yet when I have called Bluenile, the stones I have questioned them about ARE inhouse and have been looked at for me. I am not specially pushing BlueNile (who certainly don''t need me) but I often wonder if other vendors, that I don''t have experience with, also give service and do things that are not mentioned on here, just because the people commenting aren''t familiar with them?
I didn''t think the firefighter analogy was offensive because I do think that it''s true that while being experienced gives you a certain expertise and you can be VERY helpful to others (which many on this site truly are, I need to say a special thankyou to Ellen and Lorelei here who have taken time to help me and I''ll forever appreciate it, and I know there are others who have helped many too), an expert at something is still an expert and there IS a difference. Unfortunately, in the diamond business for many years before the internet there were people who traded on people''s ignorance, and there is still a lot of that out there. But jsut as even a volunteer fireman gets some training that the rest of us don''t have, people who have been trained in the diamond industry DO have special training. If I were in a building burning to death,and the fire department was not there I would not want all the people outside to just stand there and say, well, I''m not a firefighter so I won''t help--but on the other hand, if the trained people did show up and make suggestions, I would not want the others who helped to be offended if the suggestions born of training and experience didn''t always quite fit in with what they had seen as non-experts. I am probably not phrasing this very well, and the firefighter analogy is in many ways not a true parallel. But since it has been the analogy that people have been using, I am just continuing with it, and hope I do not offend, or seem ungrateful.

I don''t think that anyone wants to seem ungrateful, though--I have read this thread more as saying, that internet selling now exists and we are all trying to figure out how to use it to its optimum, but are in the early stages of that. And PS is a community which REALLY helps to sort it all out, vendors and prosumers and appraisers and everyone else all together. However, it is not perfect yet and there is this problem where a narrow group of stones gets recommended, by well-meaning people, yes, and the stones that are recommended are all super-safe, but is there or is there not a way to broaden that narrow group of stones, while NOT going back to the previous model, where salemen just did as they liked (as they still do all to often at the Maul). I guess this thread seemed interesting to me as a reader as a kind of begining of thinking about how to figure these issues out and I am sorry to see it dissolve into people being offended, and talking about banning other people, and bringing up things from years and years ago that people who are on the thread didn''t even do but their fathers maybe did or did not do--Well, anyway, you get my drift. I know that I am Mrs. Super-Ignorant, but I am interested in this and it seems sad.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 7/27/2009 1:21:57 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Storm you used the analogy of yelling fire in a threater- or the right to wave your arms as long as they don't hit someone.

I would respectfully suggest that an attack on an actual business is exactly that, while someone getting insulted at something written on a forum is not.

Protecting consumers on a consumer advocacy site is much more important than protecting vendors.
Your on the wrong forum if you think the trade should rule.
Consumers come first.
Consumers have done an incredible job of keeping it real.

Leonid wrote:
It ain't no fun anymore. It is pity, and we're sorry, if we upset some good and kind folks in the diamond trade. (We know you're reading, we know you're reading, na na, n na na ) By the way, you merchants can advertise here, but it only will work for you if you are honest and provide good products and services that customers appreciate. If you don't behave, they will splash your name all over the forum, and then anyone who searches for your name will find out if you're naughty or nice. And before saying "I know everything because I've been in this business for 20 years", we recommend listening to people's concerns first, and don't ever talk down to them– they are engineers, doctors, lawyers and really smart people disguised as dumb customers.

So what's the buzz? Well, the buzz is still the same: people, their problems and experiences, conversations, spreading knowledge, theirs and our desire to help each other and support fellow consumers. It even created a community. It is about not being a jerk, its about listening, and making an effort to think. It's about decency and class, marketing and dialog.

https://www.pricescope.com/about.asp

 

[oldminer]

David- can you show me the professionals posting here who do not agree with the usage of ASET/IS or other methods being discussed commonly here?

RD; It may surprise you but I see no important or necessary use for ASET images. I do use them because folks want them, but I do not grade, appraise or buy diamonds with these images. ASET is a handy, colorful tool, but one which I can live a very full career without. HOWEVER, to meet the needs and requests of many clients, we use this tool in addition to other things in order to grade and describe diamonds. Since the tool works easily and is subjective in nature, I see no harm in using it for clients who want it used. I am the perfect example of a professional who is not a proponent of the ASET tool and I actively work here on Pricescope.

This is a site which hopes to create a positive atmosphere for consumers who want to know more and who wish to buy a diamond. We try to keep this in mind as we go about our daily responses here. Keeping the information balanced and helpful is a main goal. Scaring people off with endless debating is not seen in a positive light. The other element of importance is that the experts here do tend to generally agree on certain helpful tools and approaches to selecting a diamond. They do agree because, as experts, they believe this is the proper approach. You have clearly expressed that your approach is not the same and we have allowed you to express your version, too. If you read back on this thread, you''ll see it has not be so well received, but that is something you must consider being in the obvious minority. Are you a sole voice of truth in the wilderness or are you, perhaps, becoming more wrong as time and progress passes you by?

 

[Abril]

Great post, Black Jade.

Yeah, I don''t get why the regulars on PS bash RockDiamond so much. But if there''s a pervasive bias against him, casual readers who aren''t familiar with the backstory and frankly don''t care can choose to ignore it. We consumers can make up our own minds about a vendor.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Thanks for the reply David.
I don't notice that list of professionals in it. In your post you mention you see no importance in ASET images. Would you say that's common David?
Hypothetical question because I'm quite sure you know that the use of ASET/IS is not all that common out there.
And the ones NOT using it include the likes of Tiffany's and Harry Winston- to say nothing of countless other jewelers stocking diamonds based on physical attributes. Where are all these jewelers represented here?

We try to keep this in mind as we go about our daily responses here. Keeping the information balanced and helpful is a main goal. Scaring people off with endless debating is not seen in a positive light.

I've mentioned this before, but here's goes again. David, you have used the word "we" as though you're speaking for others.
This is a discussion of bias- and that's exactly how to propagate bias.

Black Jade, I LOVE YOU@!!
Really, thank you so very much.
It was never my intention to insult anyone- but your explanation was perfect!

The gang mentality here is to get a group of vocal posters, and simply insult and shout down an opposing viewpoint.
I'll admit- I felt really bad when I was pounced upon for discussing what I perceived as an incorrect analogy. I'm a person with feelings too.
The use of pejoratives, and gang mentality is the essence of bias.
It starts with this gang mentality.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 7/27/2009 1:45:45 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 7/27/2009 1:21:57 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Storm you used the analogy of yelling fire in a threater- or the right to wave your arms as long as they don''t hit someone.

I would respectfully suggest that an attack on an actual business is exactly that, while someone getting insulted at something written on a forum is not.

Protecting consumers on a consumer advocacy site is much more important than protecting vendors.
Your on the wrong forum if you think the trade should rule.
Consumers come first.
Consumers have done an incredible job of keeping it real.

Leonid wrote:
It ain''t no fun anymore. It is pity, and we''re sorry, if we upset some good and kind folks in the diamond trade. (We know you''re reading, we know you''re reading, na na, n na na ) By the way, you merchants can advertise here, but it only will work for you if you are honest and provide good products and services that customers appreciate. If you don''t behave, they will splash your name all over the forum, and then anyone who searches for your name will find out if you''re naughty or nice. And before saying ''I know everything because I''ve been in this business for 20 years'', we recommend listening to people''s concerns first, and don''t ever talk down to them– they are engineers, doctors, lawyers and really smart people disguised as dumb customers.

So what''s the buzz? Well, the buzz is still the same: people, their problems and experiences, conversations, spreading knowledge, theirs and our desire to help each other and support fellow consumers. It even created a community. It is about not being a jerk, its about listening, and making an effort to think. It''s about decency and class, marketing and dialog.

https://www.pricescope.com/about.asp

Storm- you have accused me of ignoring points that don''t suit my agenda- whatever that might be.
But you essentialy ignore the most important point I made.
You now admit you''ve learned a lot and are more inclusive
Did it ever occur to you that during your education your actions may have done real damage to real people?
Not insulting someone on a forum , but taking the bread out of an honest person''s mouth?
To say nothing of the people who you may have advised to spend more because , at the time, you were more likely to "diss" a stone arbitrarily.

Who''s to say that my motives or methods are not more protective of consumers?
I honestly believe THEY ARE!

 

[Moh 10]

Date: 7/27/2009 1:55:21 PM
Author: Abril
Great post, Black Jade.


Yeah, I don''t get why the regulars on PS bash RockDiamond so much. But if there''s a pervasive bias against him, casual readers who aren''t familiar with the backstory and frankly don''t care can choose to ignore it. We consumers can make up our own minds about a vendor.

Sure if you have time to read many years of a person''s posts.

Sometimes a problem poster tries to make nice nice and if that''s all you see . . . buyer beware.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I thought we had turned a corner...oh well.
Moh, since my name was mentioned here, would you mind clarifying?
Exactly what are you warning the "buyer" about?