A Discussion On Bias

[Moh 10]

I did not mention your name.

I wrote a generic "a problem poster".

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 7/27/2009 2:21:51 PM
Author: Moh 10
I did not mention your name.

I wrote a generic 'a problem poster'.

Such as?

Moh, the point I am making is that inuendo thrown around carelessly would not seem to encourage a healthy discussion, free of harmful bias.

 

[Moh 10]

any generic problem poster can make nice nice so newbies are swayed.

 

[Rockdiamond]

OK- what exactly is a "problem poster"?

 

[Serg]

Date: 7/27/2009 2:21:51 PM
Author: Moh 10
I did not mention your name.


I wrote a generic ''a problem poster''.

Moh, you post had strong connection with RockDiamond name. I want see your clarification about Rockdiamond too.
Last 6 months I saw many vulgar attack to RockDiamond , I think it destroy PS .
RockDiamond does not support ASET/IS idea .

I agree what consumer has higher risk if he buys diamond without ASET/IS .
But if diamond seller does not use ASET/IS ( and even he does not like ASET/IS) it is not proof what he cheats consumers
If background is not white, it does not mean what person use Photoshop to improve color.

I saw too many false attack to RockDiamond and persons as RockDiamond, I see weak side in PS community is such attacks

 

[elle_chris]

Date: 7/27/2009 2:38:40 PM
Author: Moh 10
any generic problem poster can make nice nice so newbies are swayed.

Moh, it works both ways.

There have been posters here in the past that always pushed for a particular vendor. There have even been arguments regarding perfectly cut stones by another vendor who wasn't as "loved" with the "prosumer" linking an alternative.

Is that bias? yes.
Would a newbie know that posters history? no.

I think the best thing any new consumer could do is read all the tutorials, ask lots of questions and then go looking at stones.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 7/27/2009 2:08:53 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

Who''s to say that my motives or methods are not more protective of consumers?

I honestly believe THEY ARE!

prove it

 

[DiamondFlame]

Date: 7/27/2009 2:15:27 PM
Author: Moh 10

Date: 7/27/2009 1:55:21 PM
Author: Abril
Great post, Black Jade.


Yeah, I don't get why the regulars on PS bash RockDiamond so much. But if there's a pervasive bias against him, casual readers who aren't familiar with the backstory and frankly don't care can choose to ignore it. We consumers can make up our own minds about a vendor.

Sure if you have time to read many years of a person's posts.

Sometimes a problem poster tries to make nice nice and if that's all you see . . . buyer beware.

Thanks for illustrating a classic example of bias. (Sorry I had to step back in, I think a line has been crossed here.)
I don't really see how 'problem poster' equates 'questionable vendor'. Not everyone can communicate their points across as eloquently as others; so misunderstandings are bound to happen. That's no reason to go about breaking someone's bread basket, is it?

Or even implying that newbies are 'fools' who can be easily swayed? C'mon...

 

[Moh 10]

I have a bias towards John Pollard.
I''d buy a diamond from him in a heartbeat, even if he went to work for an unknown company.
Ditto, Brian Gavin.

Bias is good, natural and healthy.
It is the result of experience or judging character over a long period of time.

You can''t remain unbiased after reading years worth of material which formulates a bias - positive or negative.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 7/27/2009 2:08:53 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Storm- you have accused me of ignoring points that don''t suit my agenda- whatever that might be.

But you essentialy ignore the most important point I made.

You now admit you''ve learned a lot and are more inclusive

Did it ever occur to you that during your education your actions may have done real damage to real people?

Not insulting someone on a forum , but taking the bread out of an honest person''s mouth?

To say nothing of the people who you may have advised to spend more because , at the time, you were more likely to ''diss'' a stone arbitrarily.

I spose your going to rant about AGS now, they have also became more inclusive over the same time period.
I am not the only one that has learned a lot over the time period since I joined pricescope.
The entire science of diamond cut has taken huge leaps and moved is many directions and I have been keeping up with the state of the art and pushing beyond it.
No one I advised ever bought an ugly diamond on my advise and I used the state of the art at the time when recommending them.

 

[Rockdiamond]

OK Karl.
As an example: What is wrong with this diamond?
WEIGHT: 1.29ct
SHAPE: Asscher Cut
COLOR: F
CLARITY: SI2
MEASUREMENTS: 6.37 x 6.32 x 3.64 mm
TOTAL DEPTH: 57.6%
TABLE SIZE: 0.65%
POLISH: EX
SYMMETRY: EX
FLUORESCENCE: NONE


Instead of playing a guessing game, I'll tell you what happened.
Last year someone purchased this diamond, then posted here on PS before we shipped.
"DON'T BUY IT" she was warned.
I don't have the time to find the thread, but you were among the critics Storm.

Well, she did cancel out on that stone.
She chose another from our site instead.
The 1.29 was sold long ago to someone who's ecstatic with it.

If we put this stone on David Atlas' cut chart, it probably would get downgraded. You might find reasons to say it was "safe" to diss the stone, based on scientific principles.
But in fact, it was an AMZING eye clean SI2 diamond in a very hard to find size.
It looked like many 1.50ct asschers you see- at substantially lower a price.
I was the one who purchased that diamond for stock, and honestly represented it.
I was the one who did not even squeak when she canceled the sale, or try in any way to change her mind- even though I knew deep down, she was passing on a stone she would have loved. She ended up spending more. And NOT because I suggested it.

 

[Serg]

Date: 7/27/2009 3:18:14 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 7/27/2009 2:08:53 PM

Author: Rockdiamond


Who's to say that my motives or methods are not more protective of consumers?


I honestly believe THEY ARE!

prove it

Karl, could you prove same for you?
Could Infinite, WF, GOG PROVE it?

I think your this demand is dishonest .

 

[Rockdiamond]

Sorry - here''s the photo

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 7/27/2009 3:27:31 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 7/27/2009 2:08:53 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Storm- you have accused me of ignoring points that don''t suit my agenda- whatever that might be.

But you essentialy ignore the most important point I made.

You now admit you''ve learned a lot and are more inclusive

Did it ever occur to you that during your education your actions may have done real damage to real people?

Not insulting someone on a forum , but taking the bread out of an honest person''s mouth?

To say nothing of the people who you may have advised to spend more because , at the time, you were more likely to ''diss'' a stone arbitrarily.

I spose your going to rant about AGS now, they have also became more inclusive over the same time period.
I am not the only one that has learned a lot over the time period since I joined pricescope.
The entire science of diamond cut has taken huge leaps and moved is many directions and I have been keeping up with the state of the art and pushing beyond it.
No one I advised ever bought an ugly diamond on my advise and I used the state of the art at the time when recommending them.

Karl, All due respect, I never mentioned AGS, but I did ask you.
How do you know every single person you advised was happy.
Could they come back to you and get a refund if they were not?

Would you say that there is a "safe " atmosphere here for someone who did want to complain?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 7/27/2009 3:29:57 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
OK Karl.

So you saying I'm biased against you because I disagreed with your recommendation.
lol
So is your real motive to silence those that don't push your diamonds?
hmmmmmmm

I am done I have much better things to do than argue with you.

 

[elle_chris]

moh, have you bought from Brian Gavin, Infinity, WF, GOG, JA, EXCELL?

I''m asking because ultimately, you can''t recommend one unless you''ve bought, and you can''t compare the stones unless you''ve purchased from multiple vendors.

Granted, photos, praises and the like are a good indicator that someone provides a good product and service. However, it''s not a reason to knock another vendors goods or provide an alternative if you haven''t had experience with both.

Providing alternatives has happened too many times in the past because of "bias" and for no reason other than a vendor rubs a particular consumer the wrong way. This is not helping the newbie looking for an "unbiased" opinion on a stone they''re considering.

Unless you can prove a particular vendor sells an inferior product, bias has no place here.
Recommending someone because you happen to like their posts can work if someone doesn''t have a stone in mind. But linking an alternative for that very same reason is just plain wrong.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 7/27/2009 3:27:27 PM
Author: Moh 10
I have a bias towards John Pollard.
I''d buy a diamond from him in a heartbeat, even if he went to work for an unknown company.
Ditto, Brian Gavin.

Bias is good, natural and healthy.
It is the result of experience or judging character over a long period of time.

You can''t remain unbiased after reading years worth of material which formulates a bias - positive or negative.

Clearly, it should be a person''s right ( consumer) to recommend anyone they want.

i would also have no hesitation in recommending John Pollard. I don''t know Brian, but I''ve seen some of his stones in threads, and they were gorgeous.

So recommending sounds good.
How about disparaging others?

All due respect Moh- have we met?
Have you seen our diamonds in person?

We''re both here less than a year- how have we built up this experience you talk about?

What is a problem poster, and what were you talking about?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 7/27/2009 3:41:05 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 7/27/2009 3:29:57 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
OK Karl.

So you saying I''m biased against you because I disagreed with your recommendation.
lol
So is your real motive to silence those that don''t push your diamonds?
hmmmmmmm

I am done I have much better things to do than argue with you.

Meaning you won''t discuss actual harm that may have been done to others.
Thankfully Storm- this stuff has not really affected us, or our business.

But dissing stones arbitrarily most certainly has done damage to other, honest sellers.

My motivation here is quite similar to Serg.
Of course I need to protect our company.
But standing up against such bias, and unjust dismissal of honest people''s businesses is very strong motivation.

 

[Moh 10]

RD I don''t like you.

I''ll leave it at that.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 7/27/2009 3:51:54 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
But standing up against such bias, and unjust dismissal of honest people''s businesses is very strong motivation.

I get the picture your here to protect the trade from all of us evil pricescopers by driving people away from here.

 

[DiamondFlame]

Date: 7/27/2009 3:59:00 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 7/27/2009 3:51:54 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
But standing up against such bias, and unjust dismissal of honest people''s businesses is very strong motivation.

I get the picture your here to protect the trade from all of us evil pricescopers by driving people away from here.

Let''s not skirt the issue here by throwing remarks like that, shall we? You expected him to justify his remarks but you feel you don''t have to wth yours? Where''s the fairness in that? I don''t see what the problem is with admitting we might have been wrong before... We''re humans after all.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Thanks for being honest Moh.
How about we agree to disagree, and try to be cordial?

Storm, no, it''s not only honest tradespeople, it''s also consumers who ultimately pay.

Plus, I believe that I do nothing to drive people away from here- maybe the opposite.

 

[Serg]

Date: 7/27/2009 3:59:00 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 7/27/2009 3:51:54 PM

Author: Rockdiamond

But standing up against such bias, and unjust dismissal of honest people''s businesses is very strong motivation.

I get the picture your here to protect the trade from all of us evil pricescopers by driving people away from here.

David Atlas,Garry
I hope these Karl and Moh posts could change your opinion about current landscape on PS.
PS is sick

 

[Rock_of_Love]

Date: 7/27/2009 3:47:34 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

Date: 7/27/2009 3:27:27 PM
Author: Moh 10
I have a bias towards John Pollard.
I''d buy a diamond from him in a heartbeat, even if he went to work for an unknown company.
Ditto, Brian Gavin.

Bias is good, natural and healthy.
It is the result of experience or judging character over a long period of time.

You can''t remain unbiased after reading years worth of material which formulates a bias - positive or negative.

Clearly, it should be a person''s right ( consumer) to recommend anyone they want.

i would also have no hesitation in recommending John Pollard. I don''t know Brian, but I''ve seen some of his stones in threads, and they were gorgeous.

So recommending sounds good.
How about disparaging others?

All due respect Moh- have we met?
Have you seen our diamonds in person?

We''re both here less than a year- how have we built up this experience you talk about?

What is a problem poster, and what were you talking about?

I would just like to ditto this comment and add that a person has a right to say whatever they want, positive or negative, regardless of how long they''ve been here. This is the nature of a community like PS.

It has already been addressed that bias and opinions are formed based on experience, education, encounters and so on, which can include reading someone''s postings here, vendor, consumer or otherwise. I have formed opinions, positive and negative, about people here, both consumers and vendors. And, I am free to share my opinion if I choose to, and others can take it or leave it.

Maybe it is just me, but I have little patience or sympathy for someone who cannot articulately and professionally express themselves in writing, ESPECIALLY vendors, in a forum that is based on writing. The written word here is your face to the world! Vendors have to walk a slippery slope here because what they write represents their business, so they should take extra care with what they write and how it is perceived. If you are unable to do this or aren''t good at it (this is a problem poster), hire someone who is! Personally, I don''t really care if a vendor shoots themselves in the foot by their postings, that is their problem. But, I can tell you, I will form an opinion or bias because of it.

Everyone also has a right to defend themselves, vendors included! So, if you feel you are losing business because of PS, then stop playing the victim and get out there and *articulately and professionally* defend yourself. That is your responsibility, not the consumers who did or didn''t recommend your product.

And, just an FYI, I value a consumers point of view WAY more than a vendor because I know the vendor has a $$ motive. This is not always the case, as some vendors have a way of educating without selling, and that I respect.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 7/27/2009 5:48:38 PM
Author: Serg

Date: 7/27/2009 3:59:00 PM

Author: strmrdr

Date: 7/27/2009 3:51:54 PM


Author: Rockdiamond


But standing up against such bias, and unjust dismissal of honest people''s businesses is very strong motivation.

I get the picture your here to protect the trade from all of us evil pricescopers by driving people away from here.

David Atlas,Garry

I hope these Karl and Moh posts could change your opinion about current landscape on PS.

PS is sick

Sick of David and his constant attacks on consumers and pricescope.

I have never arbitrarily dismissed a stone.
If I dismiss a stone it is with good cause.

Now I''m really done with this thread.

 

[Ellen]

Since we seem to be wanting honest dialogue, I will shed some light on why there seems to be some animosity/frustration with David/RD. I will speak only for myself. And I will preface this post by saying again, yes, I am cynical. I have good reason, as I have been ripped off by one jeweler (and yes I have proof), and possibly might have been ripped off again, had I not returned the ring. More to follow on that in another thread.

I will also say, I consider myself a pretty fair person. I reserve judgement on people until I have been around them/listened to them a bit. I think some of the people on this board could attest to that. My SIL tells me I the most non judgemental person she knows. I don't know why she would say that, if it weren't true.



I too did not understand all the negativity towards David when he first showed up. And I knew little about him, only that he sold fancy diamonds. But after speaking with him a bit, it became clear where the frustration part was coming from. Whlie he "appears" to be listening, he rarely really "hears" what is being said, though he may give certain points lip service. And his opinions are all over the board, which I'll show later. What I found most disturbing though, was this "expert" who is giving advice, and telling me I should take a class before I help people, doesn't even understand his own thought process, as illustrated in the following post. It's the highlighted area of his response to my statement. He does not even understand that you cannot prefer something unless you have compared it with something else, or many things. Though he goes on to use the word "preference', and gives chocolate vs. vanilla as an example....

Date: 7/22/2009 9:40:07 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 7/22/2009 7:42:02 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

Date: 7/22/2009 5:46:11 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 7/22/2009 5:11:53 PM


You love 60/60's. And the reason you love them is because you have seen so many diamonds, with various cuts. You know that certain cuts makes a difference in a diamonds appearance. I think it's only fair to let customers know that too, or at least let them know it's there to be learned, if they are so inclined. Then let them decide what they want to do/how they want to pick their diamond. I hardly think that is an unreasonable request, no?


I am all for different points of view David. You haven't explained yours yet, I'm all ears.

Ellen- you are making statements on my behalf that are not accurate.
I don't prefer a 60%table because I have looked at so many diamonds.
I prefer it for the same reason blue is my favorite color. Or Chocolate versus Vanilla
How can I make this any clearer?
It's a personal preference.
An 'Ideal' cut has a smaller table, while a 60/60 has an -ever so slightly- larger table.
A subtle difference which can be explained to someone, if that's the type of diamond they are looking for. It can be demonstrated with a camera.
IN the photo below there's an AGS 0 56.3% table versus a 61% table very well cut GIA stone.



But the truth is, Richard's point- echoed by Judah, is a good one.
If I was going to hire someone to buy diamonds on our behalf, there's no way I'd consider anyone that did not have a lot of practical experience.

The only possible exception would be someone who knew nothing about it, and wanted to learn.


I can't say enough good things about the way people looking for the type of stones preferred here are assisted.
There are a group of professionals, who have real desire to participate.
Not only for commercial reasons- but because it's their passion.
Can't we all get along?

Sara- for many years, I was a traveling salesman- selling diamonds to jewelry stores.
I spent countless hours having to sit and wait... listening to the store owner- who I was waiting for- to sell a diamond.
I know you are correct about the fact that misrepresentation is rampant.
The basic education that I personally- feel is necessary about how to buy a really great diamond would have to do with the basic aspects of the financial , and physical aspects they need to know to purchase.
For example- educating shoppers about the importance of a GIA or AGSL lab report- and how it's a common tactic for sellers to use other, well known gem labs to misrepresent qualities.
It's possible to trade in diamonds with EGL reports, and maintain one's integrity, as a dealer. You simply need to have the ability to grade- or hire someone that does- grade the diamond to GIA standards and explain to the buyer that although EGL called it a J it's actually an L.
The basics of cut have to do with physical attributes. Again- demonstrated best with actual diamonds- but cameras can do a pretty decent job as well.


You are correct that it does go on Sara- I think the other professionals here would readily agree.
However- I'm sure that they could also name a lot of sellers- both online, and in stores- that have proven, over time, to be dedicated to providing transparency in the selling of diamonds. That is to say- letting the buyer know anything negative about the item they are aware of in their representation of it.
There's a lot of honest competent sellers out there among the multitudes of slimy ones.....


Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.......

No need. Everything is perfectly clear now David. I won't question you again.

So, I went to David's site, to see what it was like. And what I saw was what I had heard on these boards. The lighting used is flattering to many stones (really hard to see the inclusions though, but, maybe that's part of the point, who knows), the folksy write ups might be nice to some people who don't know any better, and he certainly makes them all sound lovely, but where's the proof? There's no comparison of a badly cut stone and a nicely cut stone to show me why his are as great as he says. And sometimes no grading report. Am I just supposed to believe him? And if so, why? Has he shown me why he is trustworthy? No. In fact, he has shown me the opposite. Here are some examples of what I'm talking about.

Here is the link to his Ebay site. He states, among other things, that "J-K colored stones and imperfect diamonds are more commonly offered without grading reports, or lesser reports. Maybe with what he carries, but we all know there are several vendors who absolutely have full reports on their J/K stones. A bit disingenuos imo, but again, maybe with the stones he buys....


Then we have this page, which farther down says, "As you can see from the photos, it's a well earned symmetry grade Very Good-rare in an Emerald cut". Really? Rare? That didn't sound right, but then I'm not into EC's, so I just went to WF and punched in a page full to see if he was right. (I had bookmarked the page, but apparently it will not save) At any rate, it pulled up a page of EC's with Very Good or Ex Symmetry on every single one. It can easily be duplicated, and these were not in house btw. So, that's not true. Why did David say this? I don't know. Either he really thinks it is and doesn't know any better, or, he's being rather disingenous again....


Then there's this stone, which he says was "cut by the book". What "book" David? And aren't you the one always saying we shouldn't rely on numbers with fancies? How they aren't all that important? And I love how you're always saying you LOVE a stone, as you say in here. Isn't that showing BIAS David? Isn't that a bit "leading", since you're the "expert", and we should trust you, then we should find this beautiful too, right? Now, I'm not saying it is or isn't, but shouldn't you leave that judgement up to the buyer? And btw, got anything that doesn't look like this one, to compare to? To make sure I really like this style, say, a chunky faceted well cut cushion?


Which leads me to another question. I fully realize that fancies must be judged on their beauty more than by numbers. And that sometimes one comes along that doesn't follow the general rule of table smaller than depth. But honestly, that's the majority of what you sell. Are all these those "anomolies". Or is it just what you prefer? Why don't you offer a bigger variety of cuts?


You got on me in another this page, and guess what I found? the word brilliance! In fact, you said this diamond had great brilliance. You don't mean to mislead do you? You also say in terms of cut, the diamond is quite beautiful. I guess you can get away with that, since it has no official grading report... Again, who says so, you? Knowing what a really beautiful round looks like, I can say it's not. But to someone who's never seen one, I guess maybe.... this one is pretty debatable though, me thinks.


This page really surprised me. Not only do you rave about this stone and the CUT, you say you were drunk on it. Granted, it is a gorgeous stone, but, I didn't think CUT was so important with fancies. Throw the numbers out you said, throw out symmetry and polish grades, they aren't important! But wait, you seem to really be singing their virtues on THIS stone.... and the proportions as well. So, cut does matter somewhat, doesn't it?

I'll end with this, though I could truly go on and on. For "your own cut grades", you say you've only got two, Amazing and Reject. Really David, how can you say this with a straight face? And, we're just supposed to take your word on these stones being well cut, since they come with no GIA report...We should just "trust" you, right? On a 5.25 ct. necklace....

One last thing. You told, Black Jade I believe it was, that we on here might tell someone looking at a 60/60 to reject it and go with an AGS0. That's rubbish, as far as I, Lorelei and strm are concerned. There may be others as well, but I know for a FACT we three don't say that. We tell them the differences in appearance and let them pick. THEY are the ones who reject a stone cut like that. Not because they can't be pretty, because they don't like the trade off.



What I have laid forth are just a few of the reasons I have so little regard for your opinion on here David. These things don't make me trust you, and they don't make me respect you. Those things do not come automatically, but instead are things which must be earned. So if you feel people are ganging up on you, maybe the others came to the same feelings/conclusion I have, all on my own.



I want to end this by saying I did not take the time to type this all out as some kind of slam on you. I did it because I truly wanted you to understand where I am coming from, what I have been trying to say to you, as have others. You don't get "subtle", so I had to be really honest and blunt. But I also did it so that if you want to help yourself in the eyes of some on this board, and possibly your business, you know where and what things you need to change. The ball is in your court now.

 

[Rock_of_Love]

Date: 7/27/2009 5:48:38 PM
Author: Serg

Date: 7/27/2009 3:59:00 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 7/27/2009 3:51:54 PM

Author: Rockdiamond

But standing up against such bias, and unjust dismissal of honest people''s businesses is very strong motivation.

I get the picture your here to protect the trade from all of us evil pricescopers by driving people away from here.

David Atlas,Garry
I hope these Karl and Moh posts could change your opinion about current landscape on PS.
PS is sick

Are you going to start putting down customers/consumers, too?

This is sick. As a consumer, I feel very sick about this.

 

[Kaleigh]

Wow. This has gone way down the tubes. I''m out too...

 

[Moh 10]

I think PS needs a mission statement or a charter that clarifies roles and the purpose of Pricescope.

Sounds like the animosity is over the perception that some people not functioning in their roles.

 

[Amethyste]

ok...
This thread is giving me a friggin'' headache.

There is no need to attack each other and show hostility.
It does destroy the kind spirit of PS...