Diamond shopping: How to look at diamonds.

[Judah Gutwein]

"Hi Garry yes it is a little harsh what prompted it was yet another frustrating visit to a store and watching both sales people and buyers operate."

Karl,

My curiosity is totally piqued....

Would you mind sharing how exactly you do this? What exactly happens?
You walk into a jewelry store with no intention to buy (?) and ostensibly you are "just looking" (scouting mission

)...so you amble over to a couple standing at the display viewing diamonds with a sales rep. and you stand there and simply watch/listen to the exchange between them?

If this is how you do it, you are really brave

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 7/22/2009 11:36:27 AM
Author: Judah Gutwein

''Hi Garry yes it is a little harsh what prompted it was yet another frustrating visit to a store and watching both sales people and buyers operate.''


Karl,


My curiosity is totally piqued....

Would you mind sharing how exactly you do this? What exactly happens?

You walk into a jewelry store with no intention to buy (?) and ostensibly you are ''just looking'' (scouting mission

)...so you amble over to a couple standing at the display viewing diamonds with a sales rep. and you stand there and simply watch/listen to the exchange between them?


If this is how you do it, you are really brave

Not that obvious about it but basically yes.
usually goes something like this:
SG: hi may I help you
me: Hi I am not in the market today but was close by so I thought I would drop in and look.
SG: let me know if you would like to see anything
me: Will do,, looks around

Someone comes in while I am looking at things usually colored stones or the estate section I listen to the sales pitch.
If they are busy or if I''m in the way of others I leave.
On occasion I will buy something usually from the estate section if I see something I like at a reasonable price at the better places.
When I am shopping I will often hit the resale and pawn shops.
That is where the majority of my small item non-diamond buying is done.
Mostly gold chains for stuff I buy lose and have my local benchman mount for me in pendant settings.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 7/22/2009 8:15:39 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 7/21/2009 9:12:07 PM

I'm not even talking about the use of these right now, and I never mentioned them in my post. Let's leave them out for now. I'm just talking about fire/scint/brilliance.



As for the second highlight, what 'method' would that be David? That's what I would like you to elaborate on please. If you personally don't point these out to your clients and explain them, what do you do when showing diamonds to clients? How do you help them to learn what they may or may not/do and do not like in a diamond? How do you help them learn what a well cut diamond vs. a not so well cut diamond look like?

HI Ellen, Actually you most certainly DID mention F/S/B- have a look at page one of this thread, your post of July 21 at 8:20:41
Or, maybe I did not understand which terms you did not want to talk about.


In terms of how we educate our shoppers: there's a link at the bottom of my posts with our website. Most of our clients never shop with us here in New York City, rather they use our site.
Have a look, it's all there in the form of hi res photos, videos, and thorough descriptions.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 7/22/2009 8:44:08 AM
Author: elle_chris

Date: 7/21/2009 4:00:50 PM

Author: Rockdiamond

Thank you Sara- we agree that many people walking into stores get misled.

Shoppers get misled by lighting, aggressive and poorly trained salespeople, and many other practices abhorred by every vendor posting here regularly.

It''s really a bad situation.

If I shop for diamonds online, it will take all of 5 seconds before I want to reach out and hit the computer screen!

There''s so much inaccurate info out there.

All this bad stuff seems to position the ASET/IS in an even more vital role.


Why does this not cause ASET/IS to be widely used when we take a broader view of the diamond business as a whole? Actually ASET IS are virtually unheard of in the wholesale diamond business overall. Aside from many of the wonderful vendors here on PS, just about EVERY wholesale buyer uses other methods for purchasing.

This would include places like Tiffany, Cartier, and Harry Winston.




Sara, in your thoughtful response you mentioned that a knowledgeable vendor would be able to explain why a stone looks good despite performing badly on ASET/IS.

In some ways, this would be like asking a seller why a stone that performs better on ASET/IS is actually better. Then it will come down to a dealer explaining his personal preferences. Can you explain why you love what you love? Maybe some of us can, but others can not.

No matter how much someone says Hearts and Arrows are better ( for example) others will not prefer these patterns in a diamond.


The decision to buy a diamond, when it''s my money, comes down to how the STONE looks. Not the GIA report, not an ASET or IS.


Lorelei, I think horses are a great analogy.

Say someone came up with a test for to tell if a horse was healthy. To make this analogy fitting the horse test would favor those horses that were black. The person who designed the test did not like white horses.

SO- the information that the test provided would be extremely useful for those looking for healthy black horses.

If one loved white horses, they''d be out of luck.


In some ways that''s how ASET/IS are used to exclude well cut diamonds that look great in real life, but do poorly on reflector tests.

I think the first part I hightlighted comes down to cost. It costs to buy the equipment, learn how to use it, then train your staff. Also, If a cutter is aiming for a particualr weight, the above tools do them a disfavor as they''re not going for ''beauty'', but rather a carat weight that can move in the market as fast as possible.


As far as the decision to buy based on looks and not the gia report, well, i disagree with this as well. GIA/AGS stones sell for more. GIA excellents and AGS Ideals for even more. If I''m putting money down on a stone, the report does make a huge difference. These diamonds cost more for a reason. If you go into any store, or even do a search here on PS, stones with GIA excellents, AGS0 that have numbers that fall into the ideal category are more expensive. Now, even if i knew nothing about cut, i''d still want to know why that is. However, very few sales people will say it''s considered a better stone.


I do agree that in the end, we all have different taste and that does factor in when buying a stone. Some like them brighter, some more fire, some want the biggest bang for the buck and don''t care at all about cut. But, there''s no denying that at least some of the cost is based on the cut, and i think it is the jewelers responsibility to explain this instead of just pushing the customer towards a stone they want to sell.

elle_chris- in the first yellow highlight you state that Tiffany, Harry Winston and Cartier don''t use ASET/IS due to cost.
Although a sarin machine costs over $10,000, such a number would not phase companies the size of the ones we''re talking about here.
Besides that, there are companies that will run the sarin for $3 per stone.
Therefore there is no logic in the statement that cost would prevent the companies mentioned- or others- from using ASET/IS.
I am not alone in my feelings about this. There are many stones that would score better on ASET/IS, yet look lesser to my eyes.


Your second highlight- and your response to it:
Say you had to buy 30 diamonds. Say these diamonds were in front of you in display trays. Sitting next to the display of diamonds are the GIA reports.
Which would you look at?

Of course at some point during the purchase process it''s going to be crucial to look at the GIA reports.
Some buyers might look through the reports, and choose which stones they want to consider. Others- myself included- would look at the diamonds, pick the ones that were interesting, then look at the reports.
Maybe a stone might be priced too high based on the grade GIA gave it- a good reason for rejection. But if the price is right, yet the stone does not please your eye, would you buy it simply because it had a great GIA report?

Or put another way- the last step in the purchase- regardless if the buyer "pre-selected" using the GIA reports, or used my method and looked at all- the last step in choosing -would that be based on how the report looks, or the diamond?


This week I chose well over $100,000 in diamonds for this company.
I considered the GIA reports, however my decisions were made looking at the diamonds.

When you buy, if you want to look at the reports, and skip the diamonds, of course that''s your right.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 7/22/2009 12:06:35 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 7/22/2009 11:36:27 AM
Author: Judah Gutwein

''Hi Garry yes it is a little harsh what prompted it was yet another frustrating visit to a store and watching both sales people and buyers operate.''


Karl,


My curiosity is totally piqued....

Would you mind sharing how exactly you do this? What exactly happens?

You walk into a jewelry store with no intention to buy (?) and ostensibly you are ''just looking'' (scouting mission

)...so you amble over to a couple standing at the display viewing diamonds with a sales rep. and you stand there and simply watch/listen to the exchange between them?


If this is how you do it, you are really brave

Not that obvious about it but basically yes.
usually goes something like this:
SG: hi may I help you
me: Hi I am not in the market today but was close by so I thought I would drop in and look.
SG: let me know if you would like to see anything
me: Will do,, looks around

Someone comes in while I am looking at things usually colored stones or the estate section I listen to the sales pitch.
If they are busy or if I''m in the way of others I leave.
On occasion I will buy something usually from the estate section if I see something I like at a reasonable price at the better places.
When I am shopping I will often hit the resale and pawn shops.
That is where the majority of my small item non-diamond buying is done.
Mostly gold chains for stuff I buy lose and have my local benchman mount for me in pendant settings.

* snerk...* I do this too, perfected the fine art of innocently hovering so I can eavesdrop on the conversation.

I have heard some howlers...

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 7/22/2009 8:55:22 PM

Author: Richard Sherwood


And sometimes that beauty doesn''t fall into the ''cookie cutter'' pattern of beauty promoted here as the ideal.


As a note, I am also very cynical about retail jewelers. Too many bad expeirences to remain blissfully content,\

This is an interesting part of this discussion.
On the one hand, we have all heard horror stories of people getting bad deals, bad information, bad experiences in jewelry stores, or websites.
Storm''s experience is certainly valid- although I''m sure many of us agree, listening second hand from across the room leaves a lot of room for misinterpretation of the sales presentation as a whole.

Regardless- I''m sure Richard, as well as every other professional posting has had clients tell them horror stories about jewelry shopping.
Besides what Storm experienced, we don;t even need to eavesdrop...just have a look on eBay, or do some google searching to find websites galore misrepresenting diamonds and jewelry.
BUT- is it fair to paint with such a broad brush?
Just as I''m sure the pros have heard horror stories, I''m also sure that every single one knows MANY people in our business who are totally honest- and committed to honest representation.
Don''t forget, even though we can site these bad apples- much of the diamond business- at the wholesale level- is based solely on trust...honoring one''s word.


At the bottom of my posts is a signature stating who I am- and our store so that readers may know we do have an ulterior motive- it''s our business. As a trade member, there is responsibility here.

If a person is a "pro-sumer" should there be any responsibility at all associated with that?
How about an honest signature stating:
"I think almost everyone in the diamond business is a crook". That would , at least, put the advice given within content.

If any of the bad apple sellers come here to post- as some have- they get their head handed to them- deservedly so.
But how about the competent, honest professionals that contribute and have done nothing wrong?




PS- I would like to apologize to Storm for using the word "Harsh" earlier.
IN the course of this discussion Karl has expressed an open mind toward other ways of critically examining a diamond.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 7/22/2009 12:06:35 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 7/22/2009 11:36:27 AM
Author: Judah Gutwein

''Hi Garry yes it is a little harsh what prompted it was yet another frustrating visit to a store and watching both sales people and buyers operate.''


Karl,


My curiosity is totally piqued....

Would you mind sharing how exactly you do this? What exactly happens?

You walk into a jewelry store with no intention to buy (?) and ostensibly you are ''just looking'' (scouting mission

)...so you amble over to a couple standing at the display viewing diamonds with a sales rep. and you stand there and simply watch/listen to the exchange between them?


If this is how you do it, you are really brave

Not that obvious about it but basically yes.
usually goes something like this:
SG: hi may I help you
me: Hi I am not in the market today but was close by so I thought I would drop in and look.
SG: let me know if you would like to see anything
me: Will do,, looks around

Someone comes in while I am looking at things usually colored stones or the estate section I listen to the sales pitch.
If they are busy or if I''m in the way of others I leave.
On occasion I will buy something usually from the estate section if I see something I like at a reasonable price at the better places.
When I am shopping I will often hit the resale and pawn shops.
That is where the majority of my small item non-diamond buying is done.
Mostly gold chains for stuff I buy lose and have my local benchman mount for me in pendant settings.

Karl this vindicates Rich and my comments as the type of stores you are frequenting may well not be representative of ''diamond shops'' in general. I am sure if you move to middle and better independent stores you will find a better diamond experiance?

 

[Ellen]

Date: 7/22/2009 3:38:54 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

Date: 7/22/2009 8:15:39 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 7/21/2009 9:12:07 PM

I''m not even talking about the use of these right now, and I never mentioned them in my post. Let''s leave them out for now. I''m just talking about fire/scint/brilliance.



As for the second highlight, what ''method'' would that be David? That''s what I would like you to elaborate on please. If you personally don''t point these out to your clients and explain them, what do you do when showing diamonds to clients? How do you help them to learn what they may or may not/do and do not like in a diamond? How do you help them learn what a well cut diamond vs. a not so well cut diamond look like?

HI Ellen, Actually you most certainly DID mention F/S/B- have a look at page one of this thread, your post of July 21 at 8:20:41
Or, maybe I did not understand which terms you did not want to talk about.


In terms of how we educate our shoppers: there''s a link at the bottom of my posts with our website. Most of our clients never shop with us here in New York City, rather they use our site.
Have a look, it''s all there in the form of hi res photos, videos, and thorough descriptions.

What I had highlighted was your mention of ASET/IS. That''s what I didn''t want to discuss, as I had not mentioned them in the first place.

Not sure why you erased that part, but here is your post and mine, again.

Date: 7/21/2009 9:12:07 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Ellen- clearly if someone knows how to separate these qualities in person, and are using ASET/IS, the tools can be very efficient in getting the type of diamond they want.
I''ve watched this site for years, and that has happened on countless occasions.
But no method is foolproof.

What if- just as a possibility- judging a diamond , for some, might incorporate a method where you would not need to be able to distinguish Fire, Brilliance and scintillation as three different things?
It''s possible that a very well cut diamond might have a different balance of F/S/B that one who distinguishes these things might find objectionable, the other observer ,seeing the three in combination, finds no deficiency.
Therefore if someone claims a diamond is ''better'' based on F/S/B it might not be an accurate statement for all observers.

Date: 7/22/2009 8:15:39 AM
Author: Ellen
I''m not even talking about the use of these right now, and I never mentioned them in my post. Let''s leave them out for now. I''m just talking about fire/scint/brilliance.


As for the second highlight, what ''method'' would that be David? That''s what I would like you to elaborate on please. If you personally don''t point these out to your clients and explain them, what do you do when showing diamonds to clients? How do you help them to learn what they may or may not/do and do not like in a diamond? How do you help them learn what a well cut diamond vs. a not so well cut diamond look like?

I think I know why you can''t/won''t answer my questions directly David. It''s because you are one of the very jewelers I have mentioned, speaking only for myself, that don''t teach a client about cut and all the aspects of a diamond. I have been to your site, more than once. And I have seen a couple things. Misinformation (which I will not elaborate on and totally derail strm''s thread with), but I think many would agree. And secondly, I''ve watched your videos and read your posts about lots of stones. What you do is hold them up in pretty lighting and move them around, all the while talking about how pretty they are. If cut is mentioned, it''s only to say it''s "well cut" ,whatever that means (with a possible grading report, which tells VERY little). And everyone ooohs and ahhhs over these "pretty" stones. Forget the fact that many aren''t particularly well cut, or even sparkly at times. As for education? There really isn''t much.

I''m sorry if I sound harsh, but I am just being honest. I''ll leave it at that. I do not want this thread to derail, and I am not really wanting to bash you. I think my point has been made.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 7/22/2009 4:27:08 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Karl this vindicates Rich and my comments as the type of stores you are frequenting may well not be representative of 'diamond shops' in general. I am sure if you move to middle and better independent stores you will find a better diamond experiance?

Gary, I have been to such shops when I was looking for my upgrade before I bought online, and it was still appalling (the lack of knowledge/lying?, treatment of me, etc). Honestly. That's why I ended up online.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 7/22/2009 4:32:52 PM
Author: Ellen
....... and I am not really wanting to bash you.....

Really Ellen, you could have easily fooled me on that one.


Our methods, which have been, thankfully, HUGELY successful, have involved a lot of photos and video- and discussing the aspects that are important.
Not every expert on cut dissects it into minute portions. Not every expert on cut can readily distinguish what you might term Fire, Scintillaiton and Brilliance as three separate independent aspects.
A great deal of diamond grading- and buying is based SOLELY on visual characteristics.
Why is Brad Pitt good looking ( if you think he is)
Do you need someone to explain that to you?
Do we need to separate "Macho" "Ruggedness" and "Sexiness" into three separate categories?



Garry is making an EXCELLENT point.
Ellen- and the other skeptics out there...is it your position that there are NO jewelry stores using honest competent sales techniques?

 

[Ellen]

Date: 7/22/2009 4:49:50 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

Date: 7/22/2009 4:32:52 PM
Author: Ellen
....... and I am not really wanting to bash you.....

Really Ellen, you could have easily fooled me on that one.


Our methods, which have been, thankfully, HUGELY successful, have involved a lot of photos and video- and discussing the aspects that are important.
Not every expert on cut dissects it into minute portions. Not every expert on cut can readily distinguish what you might term Fire, Scintillaiton and Brilliance as three separate independent aspects.
A great deal of diamond grading- and buying is based SOLELY on visual characteristics.
Why is Brad Pitt good looking ( if you think he is)
Do you need someone to explain that to you?
Do we need to separate 'Macho' 'Ruggedness' and 'Sexiness' into three separate categories?



Garry is making an EXCELLENT point.
Ellen- and the other skeptics out there...is it your position that there are NO jewelry stores using honest competent sales techniques?

Really David. However, I am being honest.

As for dissecting diamonds into minute portions? Um, that's not discussing fire/brilliance/scint. That would be things like azmuth shift and yaw.

Sorry David, but if you're just throwing stones in front of someone and asking them to pick the "prettiest" one, that's not "education", not even close. And hardly a "critical" assessment.

And yes, there ARE honest jewelers, who educate their clients. Sadly for me, save one locally, they're all online.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Just curious Ellen- are you trained as a diamond grader?

I say this with no malice- if you are as interested in the trade as you seem to be, take the GIA courses, and become a GG.
All it will do is awaken you to the fact that you''ll need to look at many many many thousands of diamonds to actually become competent as a grader.

I did read in your post that there is ONE honest jewelry you know of...we''re making some progress here!

BTW- what about a consumer that really has no interest in studying the things you have learned here Ellen.
What if they are critical in their desires- and how they look at diamonds, but they do it based on visual characteristics?
Does a trip to the jewelry store NEED to involve having "education" stuffed down your throat, like it or not?

I quoted "education" because whether or not you realize or admit this Ellen- there are many different ways of judging diamonds.
Part of the problem I had with the initial post Storm made was that it was separated into only two ways of doing this.
There ARE methods of judging a diamond without separating F/S/B.
That does not make these methods "wrong"- or any less effective.
If someone in one group invalidates the other, that makes for hostility.

Can''t you at least allow for other, differing points of view?

 

[Judah Gutwein]

If I can just weigh in here on a few points.....

First, I'd like to say that Richard's statements: ".... The truth is that there are a multitude of retail jewelers who are experienced pros, and make their living pointing their customers towards the right product for them."..........and........ "The typical experienced jeweler handles more diamonds in a week than most pro-sumers here see in a year," are important considerations on many levels.

Pro-sumers here are an invaluable part of this forum. At the same time, not every jeweler is out to make a sale at the expense of their honesty and integrity. This type of assumption is unfair and inaccurate, especially when that premise accepted as fact, is sometimes extended to invalidate the experts Richard refers to (because of their perceived 'bias'), in favor of less knowledgeable and less experienced pro-sumers with no such perceived agenda and simply because they aren't 'selling something' other than their knowledge.

Also......

I do believe that the behavior of many unscrupulous B&M's, creates an unfair reflection upon the many B&M's operating with honesty and integrity - while catering to educated and savvy shopers. This same argument is true with respect to Internet vendors etc.

Finally, IMO, it is never a good idea to paint an opinion with broad strokes.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 7/22/2009 5:11:53 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Just curious Ellen- are you trained as a diamond grader?

I say this with no malice- if you are as interested in the trade as you seem to be, take the GIA courses, and become a GG.
All it will do is awaken you to the fact that you'll need to look at many many many thousands of diamonds to actually become competent as a grader.

I did read in your post that there is ONE honest jewelry you know of...we're making some progress here!

BTW- what about a consumer that really has no interest in studying the things you have learned here Ellen.
What if they are critical in their desires- and how they look at diamonds, but they do it based on visual characteristics?
Does a trip to the jewelry store NEED to involve having 'education' stuffed down your throat, like it or not?

I quoted 'education' because whether or not you realize or admit this Ellen- there are many different ways of judging diamonds.
Part of the problem I had with the initial post Storm made was that it was separated into only two ways of doing this.
There ARE methods of judging a diamond without separating F/S/B.
That does not make these methods 'wrong'- or any less effective.
If someone in one group invalidates the other, that makes for hostility.

Can't you at least allow for other, differing points of view?

No David, I am not a trained diamond grader.

If a consumer does not wish to learn about diamonds before they buy one, of course it should not be "shoved down their throat". But, do you even ask them? Do you even let them know there is something to be learned? I wonder.... I saw no evidence of that on your site.

As for judging a stone, from what I've seen on your site and what you are insinuating here, you are asking people to judge with their eyes. That's great, once they know what they're looking for. But, you don't tell them.... In my opinion, that's wrong. That's what happened to me and countless others before we found this place. They ALL look pretty under certain lighting... And we ended up with less than stellar stones (and now know why), whatever that is/means to US. WE are not happy that we were not told about cut, and that we could have had a real choice. You cannot sit there and tell us we are wrong to feel that way. Please, give the consumer the choice to learn, I seriously doubt most would pass on that. Not when they're making an emotional purchase worth thousands of dollars. Look at all the posters who come here every day asking for help, it's for those very reasons.

You love 60/60's. And the reason you love them is because you have seen so many diamonds, with various cuts. You know that certain cuts makes a difference in a diamonds appearance. I think it's only fair to let customers know that too, or at least let them know it's there to be learned, if they are so inclined. Then let them decide what they want to do/how they want to pick their diamond. I hardly think that is an unreasonable request, no?

I am all for different points of view David. You haven't explained yours yet, I'm all ears.

 

[Lula]

Date: 7/22/2009 4:38:17 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 7/22/2009 4:27:08 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Karl this vindicates Rich and my comments as the type of stores you are frequenting may well not be representative of 'diamond shops' in general. I am sure if you move to middle and better independent stores you will find a better diamond experiance?

Gary, I have been to such shops when I was looking for my upgrade before I bought online, and it was still appalling (the lack of knowledge/lying?, treatment of me, etc). Honestly. That's why I ended up online.

Ditto. My last experience was with a supposedly well-educated and trained HOF salesperson in a high-end store.

I e-mailed Maarten de Witte about the salesperson's assertions, and received an e-mail from Mr. de Witte informing me that I must realize that "salesman are prone to hyperbole."

I was so infuriated by his dismissive response that I wrote back to Maarten de Witte telling him his sales staff's hyperbole about "rainbow colors" sounded to me like misrepresentation rather than exaggeration and cost HOF the sale of a $2500 eternity band. Haven't heard back.

Rockdiamond, lack of training and misrepresentation -- oops, "hyperbole" -- is more widespread than you and others on this form may want to believe. Again, no one here has made any assertion that you run your business this way.

But consumers are asking for more and more scientific support (whether it be AGS or GIA cert, IS/ASET/HCA tools, and/or video or photographic inspection). I expect more from a jeweler now, in terms of knowledge, respect, and education, than I did 30 years ago. Yes, a jeweler's experience is important, but even the most experienced professionals know that keeping up with innovations in their respective fields and meeting changing consumer demand is neccesary to survive. I think we will continue to see the demise of B&M stores who rely only on the "wow, pretty" customer to help them make their monthly sales quota.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 7/22/2009 6:46:30 PM
Author: sarap333

But consumers are asking for more and more scientific support (whether it be AGS or GIA cert, IS/ASET/HCA tools, and/or video or photographic inspection). I expect more from a jeweler now, in terms of knowledge, respect, and education, than I did 30 years ago. Yes, a jeweler''s experience is important, but even the most experienced professionals know that keeping up with innovations in their respective fields and meeting changing consumer demand is neccesary to survive. I think we will continue to see the demise of B&M stores who rely only on the ''wow, pretty'' customer to help them make their monthly sales quota.

yes, agree 101%. i want the "wow pretty" plus all the other informations.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 7/22/2009 5:46:11 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 7/22/2009 5:11:53 PM


You love 60/60's. And the reason you love them is because you have seen so many diamonds, with various cuts. You know that certain cuts makes a difference in a diamonds appearance. I think it's only fair to let customers know that too, or at least let them know it's there to be learned, if they are so inclined. Then let them decide what they want to do/how they want to pick their diamond. I hardly think that is an unreasonable request, no?


I am all for different points of view David. You haven't explained yours yet, I'm all ears.

Ellen- you are making statements on my behalf that are not accurate.
I don't prefer a 60%table because I have looked at so many diamonds.
I prefer it for the same reason blue is my favorite color. Or Chocolate versus Vanilla
How can I make this any clearer?
It's a personal preference.
An "Ideal" cut has a smaller table, while a 60/60 has an -ever so slightly- larger table.
A subtle difference which can be explained to someone, if that's the type of diamond they are looking for. It can be demonstrated with a camera.
IN the photo below there's an AGS 0 56.3% table versus a 61% table very well cut GIA stone.



But the truth is, Richard's point- echoed by Judah, is a good one.
If I was going to hire someone to buy diamonds on our behalf, there's no way I'd consider anyone that did not have a lot of practical experience.

The only possible exception would be someone who knew nothing about it, and wanted to learn.


I can't say enough good things about the way people looking for the type of stones preferred here are assisted.
There are a group of professionals, who have real desire to participate.
Not only for commercial reasons- but because it's their passion.
Can't we all get along?

Sara- for many years, I was a traveling salesman- selling diamonds to jewelry stores.
I spent countless hours having to sit and wait... listening to the store owner- who I was waiting for- to sell a diamond.
I know you are correct about the fact that misrepresentation is rampant.
The basic education that I personally- feel is necessary about how to buy a really great diamond would have to do with the basic aspects of the financial , and physical aspects they need to know to purchase.
For example- educating shoppers about the importance of a GIA or AGSL lab report- and how it's a common tactic for sellers to use other, well known gem labs to misrepresent qualities.
It's possible to trade in diamonds with EGL reports, and maintain one's integrity, as a dealer. You simply need to have the ability to grade- or hire someone that does- grade the diamond to GIA standards and explain to the buyer that although EGL called it a J it's actually an L.
The basics of cut have to do with physical attributes. Again- demonstrated best with actual diamonds- but cameras can do a pretty decent job as well.


You are correct that it does go on Sara- I think the other professionals here would readily agree.
However- I'm sure that they could also name a lot of sellers- both online, and in stores- that have proven, over time, to be dedicated to providing transparency in the selling of diamonds. That is to say- letting the buyer know anything negative about the item they are aware of in their representation of it.
There's a lot of honest competent sellers out there among the multitudes of slimy ones.....


Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.......

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 7/22/2009 4:27:08 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Karl this vindicates Rich and my comments as the type of stores you are frequenting may well not be representative of ''diamond shops'' in general. I am sure if you move to middle and better independent stores you will find a better diamond experiance?

Garry out in the real world it is not that easy to separate them into categories.
I have had great experiences at low end stores and bad experiences at high end stores.
I have had both at the same store depending on who I was dealing with.
One of the best was a very nice lady at a mid to high end independent who is now retired who knew next to nothing about diamonds.
If you had a technical question she called the owner or his son over to answer it.
Her gift was listening and finding the right beautiful thing for her customers.
She didn''t BS her customers at all.
On the other hand 2 sales people in the same store were total sharks.
The owner didn''t work the counter anymore but if you got the son or the lady you were in good hands. I felt sorry for the people that got the sharks.
They were selling in effect different goods and a vastly different experience.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 7/22/2009 5:38:06 PM
Author: Judah Gutwein
If I can just weigh in here on a few points.....


First, I''d like to say that Richard''s statements: ''.... The truth is that there are a multitude of retail jewelers who are experienced pros, and make their living pointing their customers towards the right product for them.''..........and........ ''The typical experienced jeweler handles more diamonds in a week than most pro-sumers here see in a year,'' are important considerations on many levels.



Pro-sumers here are an invaluable part of this forum. At the same time, not every jeweler is out to make a sale at the expense of their honesty and integrity. This type of assumption is unfair and inaccurate, especially when that premise accepted as fact, is sometimes extended to invalidate the experts Richard refers to (because of their perceived ''bias''), in favor of less knowledgeable and less experienced pro-sumers with no such perceived agenda and simply because they aren''t ''selling something'' other than their knowledge.


Also......


I do believe that the behavior of many unscrupulous B&M''s, creates an unfair reflection upon the many B&M''s operating with honesty and integrity - while catering to educated and savvy shopers. This same argument is true with respect to Internet vendors etc.


Finally, IMO, it is never a good idea to paint an opinion with broad strokes.

It is not really a matter of honesty and integrity.
For example someone could be the most honest person on earth and still move people in the wrong direction.
It is more a matter of presentation, training, personality and not being a shark.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 7/22/2009 6:46:30 PM
Author: sarap333
.....I wrote back to Maarten de Witte telling him his sales staff's hyperbole about 'rainbow colors' sounded to me like misrepresentation rather than exaggeration and cost HOF the sale of a $2500 eternity band.

I use the term "rainbow colors" all the time in explaining "fire" to a client. How the prism like angles of the diamond splits some of the light return into the ROYGBIV colors of the rainbow.

 

[Lula]

Date: 7/22/2009 8:40:17 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood

Date: 7/22/2009 6:46:30 PM
Author: sarap333
.....I wrote back to Maarten de Witte telling him his sales staff's hyperbole about 'rainbow colors' sounded to me like misrepresentation rather than exaggeration and cost HOF the sale of a $2500 eternity band.

I use the term 'rainbow colors' all the time in explaining 'fire' to a client. How the prism like angles of the diamond splits some of the light return into the ROYGBIV colors of the rainbow.

But Richard, I bet you don't say that such-and-such-brand stone is the only stone on the market that displays all colors of the rainbow, which is what the SA said to me -- more than once. As Maarten de Witte said to me in the e-mail, salesmen exaggerate. But when does it cross the line into misrepresentation and an outright falsehood (albeit not neccessarily an intentional or malicious deception)? I feel it did in this case.

Sorry, I should have provided more details about that particular sales interaction, but I did't want to hijack -- here are the links to the two earlier posts explaining what happened in more detail:
link 1
link 2


Update: I shared Maarten de Witte's reply with the SA the next time I was in the store, and the SA was shocked -- I believe honestly so -- that what he had been trained to say (so he believed) was wrong. He said, "I'm going to have to ask Maarten about that at our next training." I hope he does. I told the SA that I didn't blame him, that I blamed his training. It's a nice store and they have the best benchman in town for custom work (you should see the guy's waxes!) so I probably will buy from them in the future, but I will not buy HOF. The SA and I shook hands and ended things on a positive note. But this just goes to show how wrong things can go when "wow-pretty" becomes the emphasis.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 7/22/2009 2:29:01 AM
Author: strmrdr
I believe that learning to look critically at diamonds both online and in person leads to opening ones mind to consider other diamonds rather than closing it.
The key to moving beyond that safety net is being comfortable taking a critical look at diamonds.
It has for me as my diamond journey evolved.
As my knowledge of diamonds grew my comfort zone expanded.

You illustrate my point exactly here Karl. You state that as your knowledge grew, your level of comfort with diamonds you previously would have dismissed, grew.

Unfortunately, during that journey of knowledge I''ve seen you and many other pro-sumers "bash" diamonds because they were not in the tight group generally recommended here.

These are diamonds which would have been gorgeous stones, but got knocked because of one minor detail or another. It makes me cringe, because as an independent appraiser I try and maintain a neutral and unbiased stance, whereas this forum tends to be considerably biased, often dismissing anything less than an ideal make as "inferior", when they are actually great looking stones. It''s an unbalanced situation.

I know for a fact that large dollar sales have been "kaboshed" because of harsh criticism here on Pricescope. This sometimes results in a damaged client-vendor relationship, and loss of revenue when a vendor has done nothing but try and be helpful. I feel bad for both the consumer and the vendor in these situations, as they both lose.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 7/22/2009 7:42:02 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

Date: 7/22/2009 5:46:11 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 7/22/2009 5:11:53 PM


You love 60/60''s. And the reason you love them is because you have seen so many diamonds, with various cuts. You know that certain cuts makes a difference in a diamonds appearance. I think it''s only fair to let customers know that too, or at least let them know it''s there to be learned, if they are so inclined. Then let them decide what they want to do/how they want to pick their diamond. I hardly think that is an unreasonable request, no?


I am all for different points of view David. You haven''t explained yours yet, I''m all ears.

Ellen- you are making statements on my behalf that are not accurate.
I don''t prefer a 60%table because I have looked at so many diamonds.
I prefer it for the same reason blue is my favorite color. Or Chocolate versus Vanilla
How can I make this any clearer?
It''s a personal preference.
An ''Ideal'' cut has a smaller table, while a 60/60 has an -ever so slightly- larger table.
A subtle difference which can be explained to someone, if that''s the type of diamond they are looking for. It can be demonstrated with a camera.
IN the photo below there''s an AGS 0 56.3% table versus a 61% table very well cut GIA stone.



But the truth is, Richard''s point- echoed by Judah, is a good one.
If I was going to hire someone to buy diamonds on our behalf, there''s no way I''d consider anyone that did not have a lot of practical experience.

The only possible exception would be someone who knew nothing about it, and wanted to learn.


I can''t say enough good things about the way people looking for the type of stones preferred here are assisted.
There are a group of professionals, who have real desire to participate.
Not only for commercial reasons- but because it''s their passion.
Can''t we all get along?

Sara- for many years, I was a traveling salesman- selling diamonds to jewelry stores.
I spent countless hours having to sit and wait... listening to the store owner- who I was waiting for- to sell a diamond.
I know you are correct about the fact that misrepresentation is rampant.
The basic education that I personally- feel is necessary about how to buy a really great diamond would have to do with the basic aspects of the financial , and physical aspects they need to know to purchase.
For example- educating shoppers about the importance of a GIA or AGSL lab report- and how it''s a common tactic for sellers to use other, well known gem labs to misrepresent qualities.
It''s possible to trade in diamonds with EGL reports, and maintain one''s integrity, as a dealer. You simply need to have the ability to grade- or hire someone that does- grade the diamond to GIA standards and explain to the buyer that although EGL called it a J it''s actually an L.
The basics of cut have to do with physical attributes. Again- demonstrated best with actual diamonds- but cameras can do a pretty decent job as well.


You are correct that it does go on Sara- I think the other professionals here would readily agree.
However- I''m sure that they could also name a lot of sellers- both online, and in stores- that have proven, over time, to be dedicated to providing transparency in the selling of diamonds. That is to say- letting the buyer know anything negative about the item they are aware of in their representation of it.
There''s a lot of honest competent sellers out there among the multitudes of slimy ones.....


Let''s not throw the baby out with the bathwater.......

No need. Everything is perfectly clear now David. I won''t question you again.

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 7/22/2009 9:21:42 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood

Date: 7/22/2009 2:29:01 AM
Author: strmrdr
I believe that learning to look critically at diamonds both online and in person leads to opening ones mind to consider other diamonds rather than closing it.
The key to moving beyond that safety net is being comfortable taking a critical look at diamonds.
It has for me as my diamond journey evolved.
As my knowledge of diamonds grew my comfort zone expanded.

You illustrate my point exactly here Karl. You state that as your knowledge grew, your level of comfort with diamonds you previously would have dismissed, grew.

Unfortunately, during that journey of knowledge I''ve seen you and many other pro-sumers ''bash'' diamonds because they were not in the tight group generally recommended here.

These are diamonds which would have been gorgeous stones, but got knocked because of one minor detail or another. It makes me cringe, because as an independent appraiser I try and maintain a neutral and unbiased stance, whereas this forum tends to be considerably biased, often dismissing anything less than an ideal make as ''inferior'', when they are actually great looking stones. It''s an unbalanced situation.

I know for a fact that large dollar sales have been ''kaboshed'' because of harsh criticism here on Pricescope. This sometimes results in a damaged client-vendor relationship, and loss of revenue when a vendor has done nothing but try and be helpful. I feel bad for both the consumer and the vendor in these situations, as they both lose.

Richard, I agree with the point you make here. My husband & I purchased my diamond from a very well-respected dealer in the Washington, DC area. My stone is actually EGL Israel H&A, though the vendor also offers GIA & AGS diamonds. For our budget, and the size I wanted, I was happy going with an EGL stone that was selected by this vendor who I trusted. With my PS knowledge, we purchased a G SI1 knowing it may actually be an H SI2, but I knew that going in, and was OK with it. When I inspected my diamond through an Idealscope next to an AGS diamond, and still loved it, I was confident in my choice. I think that if I had just followed the advice of some posters on PS, I would have never even considered an EGL Israel diamond, but since I was able to inspect and compare it in person, I was comfortable with my choice.

Anyway, I just wanted to throw in my opinion as someone who doesn''t own a "PS approved" type stone. My point is just that if you can see a diamond in person, don''t immediately discount it if it doesn''t meet the "PS requirements."

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 7/22/2009 9:21:42 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood

You illustrate my point exactly here Karl. You state that as your knowledge grew, your level of comfort with diamonds you previously would have dismissed, grew.

Rich you raise several points that I am going to address one at a time.

PS has evolved right along with me.
Looking back to the early years PS is a different place today.
If I go back to my first days here I bet I could find something by every expert that they would not say today.
The entire field of diamond science has evolved at the same time that PS has evolved and the members here have evolved.
There is a lot more information available now but still a lot of questions so it will continue to evolve.
5 years from now diamond science will have evolved, PS will have evolved and I will have evolved.
That does not mean we did not do the best we could to help people then, now and in the future.

 

[glitterata]

I agree with Richard, and to some extent David.

Many people here are crazy for super-ideal cuts the way traditional customers might have been told to prefer D IF. But for many consumers, super-ideals are overkill the way D IF would be. The difference between a super-ideal and a really nice but not super-ideal cut can be subtle or even invisible to the naked eye, just as it can be hard for many people to tell a D from an H or an IF from an SI1. That doesn't mean the differences don't exist. But they might not matter to the newbie asking for advice--he/she might prefer to get an almost-ideal for a lower price. Or he/she might actually prefer the way a different style of cutting looks, like David's 60/60s, or an OEC. Or they may prefer a more random, crushed-ice look over the perfect symmetry of hearts & arrows. Just like many people prefer the look of a warmer diamond over a D,E,F.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 7/22/2009 9:21:42 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood
These are diamonds which would have been gorgeous stones, but got knocked because of one minor detail or another. It makes me cringe, because as an independent appraiser I try and maintain a neutral and unbiased stance, whereas this forum tends to be considerably biased, often dismissing anything less than an ideal make as ''inferior'', when they are actually great looking stones. It''s an unbalanced situation.

Again it comes back to making safe choices, this forum is geared towards online buying where being selective is a good defense.
There are many different levels of advice on PS some is better than others but all of it is given with good intentions.
Has anyone that followed the advise of PS ever got an ugly diamond? No they haven''t.
Have some nice diamonds been passed over? yes but it is unavoidable.
Is it much better than it was in the past? Yes it is.
Give us some credit for evolving.
It will never be perfect.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 7/22/2009 9:54:25 PM
Author: strmrdr

Again it comes back to making safe choices, this forum is geared towards online buying where being selective is a good defense.
There are many different levels of advice on PS some is better than others but all of it is given with good intentions.
Has anyone that followed the advise of PS ever got an ugly diamond? No they haven''t.
Have some nice diamonds been passed over? yes but it is unavoidable.
Is it much better than it was in the past? Yes it is.
Give us some credit for evolving.
It will never be perfect.

Thank. You. For this entire post.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 7/22/2009 9:42:39 PM
Author: vespergirl

Anyway, I just wanted to throw in my opinion as someone who doesn''t own a ''PS approved'' type stone. My point is just that if you can see a diamond in person, don''t immediately discount it if it doesn''t meet the ''PS requirements.''

You stone is PS approved :}
You made it so with your hard work and by taking a critical look at the diamond.
Not everyone can or wants to put that much work into it.

You post really goes to the heart of my post that started this thread, take a critical look at the diamond.
You can do that on your own as you did or you can get the information from a vendor who supplies it.
You took what you learned about taking a critical look at a diamond and applied it at a local store. That is way kewl :}

 

[Rockdiamond]

Karl, I agree with you- the diamonds that you , and other prosumers assisted the many many shoppers were not going to be ugly, no way. To that extent there is little doubt the ASET and IS are effective.
Also important to say that the prosumers are acting in great faith- a genuine attempt to aid consumers.

But let's say the question wasn't if anyone had bought an ugly diamond based on advice given here- but how about looking at the possibility that there were times shoppers spent more than they would have had to if they'd have considered a wider range of choices- such as stones of VG cut grade- or heaven forbid- a stone of merely "good" polish.

There's also the possibility that shoppers directed towards one type of diamond actually get one they'd prefer less if they'd have chosen in person.

The two stones I posted above are still a good example.
It can be "proven" one is cut better than the other- based on physical observation, I happen to prefer the stone categorized as not as well cut .


Vespa-Girl- yours is a great example of how someone used the selective process- and chose the aspects that worked for them.
That sounds like a very sound choice.
Some of the EGL stones can be massive bargains, if you go in with your eyes open, and have a selective dealer.

SO,it really can work both ways.
I suppose any advice given can be seen as a double edged sword.