Diamond shopping: How to look at diamonds.

[strmrdr]

When looking at diamonds there are 2 ways of looking at them “WOW pretty” and a more critical look.
Tradition has been for many stores to do all they can to put a customer in “WOW pretty” mode.
From the language used to the lighting, it is all geared to move the customer away from a critical evaluation.
The very best offer a mix of both, going over both the critical and the WOW pretty.
A quick overview of the 4c’s does not count as it will be followed by quickly distracting the customer.
Next time you’re in a store when you walk out what is the strongest impression you take with you?
WOW pretty and not remembering what the 4c’s or technical information are is the most common.
This can be a dangerous thing when spending thousands of dollars on something you or a loved one will wear for years and leads to many regrets.

This is why I am a huge advocate of using technology to help one give a diamond a more critical look.
When shopping online with the level of information provided by the top vendors it is possible to do the critical evaluation before you ever see the diamond in most cases.
Most online buying done at PS on the forums is done in the critical mode.
That is why a very common question is does this IS/ASET image look good rather than: is this a pretty diamond?
Some exceptions are for example is a diamond eyeclean, they must be looked at in a critical manner with in the return period as does the setting.
The best advice anyone can give is when shopping for diamonds move out of the “WOW pretty” way of looking at them for at least some of the time.
You will have a lifetime to enjoy the WOW pretty.

 

[Lula]

Storm, I envy your ability to say so much in so few words!

Newbies and lurkers, this is good stuff!

 

[JogiaDiamonds]

I wish all consumers were like that, however, my guess is that 90+ percent of consumers fit into your "WOW pretty" category.

There are also other categories such as:

"WOW triple excellent!" (with a 41.6 pavilion angle and 35 degree crown)
"WOW what a good price" (looking at an EGL cert)

 

[Kaleigh]

You made some very good points, Kudos to saying what so many of us feel. Great post, great thread!!!!

 

[bright&shiny]

Fantastic thread!

I think I just had a bit of a conversation with John Pollard about this very topic...

I''m going to ''borrow'' Storms writing approach to summarize:

Many people out there don''t know about the importance of cut - and the technologies that can help initial screening - but the word is spreading.
There are lots of diamonds out there that were not cut with these technologies in mind.
Many diamonds currently on the market could be rejected if the technologies become pervasive.
The world market and retailers have a lot to loose if their current inventory is scrutinized with an eye toward cut as the primary driver for selection.
Some seem fearful that the inclusion of the technology will exclude the less technical ''does it speak to you'' aspect.

In this consumer''s opinion, the technologies are fabulous tools for sorting through the lesser stones and finding the ones that will best speak, and they will, like it or not, influence purchases - particularly as more and more people will be buying stones from the internet without being able to see them in person before purchase. (sorry, that is a run-on)

For me, the steps are:
1. Use the technologies to find the best contenders
2. Look for the ''wow'' factor amongst the contenders
3. Choose (if possible ) or get a bigger budget :-0

BTW: I hope this thread can keep going without getting mired down in what appear to be the negative (angry) lines between the ''yea'' and ''boo'' camps regarding the technologies. They exist. Now what?

 

[FancyDiamond]

You may be right about RB. For cushions, I just learned today that the "wow look" is more important than ASET and numbers. I have to see the actual diamond in order to know that I prefer the chucky facets and the squarish shape. More importantly, I need to see the video showing the fire, scintillation, and brilliance in order to judge which diamond "personality" sings to me. Whatever I ended up falling in love with surprisingly is the one that I overlooked based on numbers and ASET alone. Of course, for the experts with well trained eyes and profound knowledge, they may be able to use the numbers and ASET to zoom in those diamonds with potentials. Unfortunately, not me. I still have to rely on the "wow look".

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 7/20/2009 9:30:45 PM
Author:strmrdr
When looking at diamonds there are 2 ways of looking at them “WOW pretty” and a more critical look.
Tradition has been for many stores to do all they can to put a customer in “WOW pretty” mode.
From the language used to the lighting, it is all geared to move the customer away from a critical evaluation.
The very best offer a mix of both, going over both the critical and the WOW pretty.
A quick overview of the 4c’s does not count as it will be followed by quickly distracting the customer.
Next time you’re in a store when you walk out what is the strongest impression you take with you?
WOW pretty and not remembering what the 4c’s or technical information are is the most common.
This can be a dangerous thing when spending thousands of dollars on something you or a loved one will wear for years and leads to many regrets.

This is why I am a huge advocate of using technology to help one give a diamond a more critical look.
When shopping online with the level of information provided by the top vendors it is possible to do the critical evaluation before you ever see the diamond in most cases.
Most online buying done at PS on the forums is done in the critical mode.
That is why a very common question is does this IS/ASET image look good rather than: is this a pretty diamond?
Some exceptions are for example is a diamond eyeclean, they must be looked at in a critical manner with in the return period as does the setting.
The best advice anyone can give is when shopping for diamonds move out of the “WOW pretty” way of looking at them for at least some of the time.
You will have a lifetime to enjoy the WOW pretty.

A very harsh summary of the millions of different approaches by different businesses and salespeople (loyal or antogonistic to their employer etc).
Many of the stores I look at have light that makes diamonds look terrible - this is more likely to be the case the further up the market level you go (except tiffany who do a great job in most stores).

Could all and most do a better job - yes of course - but it is mostly a case of blisful ignorance.
Do we need a solution?
YES
Would Next Diamond do the trick?
I hope so

 

[Moh 10]

Part of the blame is with the customer.

Some do no research, no homework before walking into a jewelry store.

They are like a flies entering a spider web.

 

[Regular Guy]

"You teach a child to read, and he or her will be able to pass a literacy test." George Bush

This is helpful thread, and it''s all good...but we do want to remember what we mean when we say "the proof is in the pudding."

Date: 7/20/2009 11:30:07 PM
Author: FancyDiamond
You may be right about RB. For cushions, I just learned today that the ''wow look'' is more important than ASET and numbers. I have to see the actual diamond in order to know that I prefer the chucky facets and the squarish shape. More importantly, I need to see the video showing the fire, scintillation, and brilliance in order to judge which diamond ''personality'' sings to me. Whatever I ended up falling in love with surprisingly is the one that I overlooked based on numbers and ASET alone. Of course, for the experts with well trained eyes and profound knowledge, they may be able to use the numbers and ASET to zoom in those diamonds with potentials. Unfortunately, not me. I still have to rely on the ''wow look''.

The pudding is the diamond and is the wow...that wows as often as possible.

The virtue of technology, I think, and the challenge of "too good" lighting in a jewelery store, is that upon leaving the store, you may not keep getting the wow, so you want to standardize the environment, in order to help understand where ongoing WOWs would continue to be available.

Optimizing wows in the long run is really the target. For everybody!

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 7/20/2009 11:30:07 PM
Author: FancyDiamond
You may be right about RB. For cushions, I just learned today that the 'wow look' is more important than ASET and numbers. I have to see the actual diamond in order to know that I prefer the chucky facets and the squarish shape. More importantly, I need to see the video showing the fire, scintillation, and brilliance in order to judge which diamond 'personality' sings to me. Whatever I ended up falling in love with surprisingly is the one that I overlooked based on numbers and ASET alone. Of course, for the experts with well trained eyes and profound knowledge, they may be able to use the numbers and ASET to zoom in those diamonds with potentials. Unfortunately, not me. I still have to rely on the 'wow look'.

Video is a technology and taking a critical look is vital with all shapes.
Using ASET/IS is not the only way to take a critical look at diamonds.
Other ways are using a reference stone to compare, viewing them under many different lighting conditions is another and a few others can be used also.

Separating out fire, scintillation, and brilliance and taking into account how how each looks for that diamond is a critical look.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 7/21/2009 12:35:15 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

A very harsh summary of the millions of different approaches by different businesses and salespeople (loyal or antogonistic to their employer etc).

Many of the stores I look at have light that makes diamonds look terrible - this is more likely to be the case the further up the market level you go (except tiffany who do a great job in most stores).


Could all and most do a better job - yes of course - but it is mostly a case of blisful ignorance.

Do we need a solution?

YES

Would Next Diamond do the trick?

I hope so

Hi Garry yes it is a little harsh what prompted it was yet another frustrating visit to a store and watching both sales people and buyers operate.
I did include an exception for those that do it different.
Some jewelers do use leading consumers into a critical mode of looking at diamonds as a sales tool but it is relatively rare.
Those that do are successful because it makes them stand out in consumers minds.

Next Diamond with education of sellers who then pass it on will help.
Putting Next Diamond into a store by itself will not help.
Education is the key.

 

[Lorelei]

Great piece Karl!!

 

[Rockdiamond]

I agree with Garry here.
Not only is it a harsh analysis, it leaves ZERO room for different points of view.
Either do it your way, or it's all fluff, smoke and mirrors.
Is that an accurate and balanced way of looking at this?


Without question, if a consumer wants ASET/IS the seller needs to supply them- or the consumer should walk.
However as FancyDiamond has pointed out, there's many effective methods besides using ASET/IS.

I've already shown RBC stones where, in person, the stone with the lesser ASET/IS was more attractive to my eyes. What this means is that some buyers are not served by using ASET/IS as pre screening devices.

bright&shiny- at the highest levels of the diamond business, the importance of cut has long been well known.
I am so very thankful that many diamonds are cut using a cutter's eye and experience as opposed to trying to cut a stone to satisfy ASET/IS or a cut chart.
If a cutter does not use these tools, that in no way should be taken to mean they are not placing a high priority on quality of cut- and in many cases, succeeding.

Again- there are consumers who find value in these tools- and kudos to Garry for being at the "cutting edge" in designing such advanced technologies. However not everyone will get the same value from them.
Of course, if someone asked for ASET/IS we'd provide it, but it does not rule how we buy.
On a given day, I might buy 50 diamonds. Should I trust my eyes, or an ASET?

I know you acknowledged this aspect Storm.

You also mentioned being able to separate "fire, scintillation, an briliance"
What if the way someone sees a diamond does not fit into these names?
We're using words to describe the way a diamond transmits light. IN that regard, assigning names to such charachteristics might be quite misleading, as we all see things differently - perception really does play a large role.

The fact is that what Storm observed in a jewelry store is common- misinformation, or lack of knowledgeable salespeople is HUGE problem at the retail level- both in stores and on the web.
A great reason for this site to exist is to assist consumers in avoiding the common pitfalls.

Sometime there's a gang mentality here which attempts silence different ways of looking at this- and actually can lessen the value of the site IMO.
All due respect but how can one member speak for many?
Is that fair?
How would that allow for differing points of view to be heard?

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 7/20/2009 9:30:45 PM
Author:strmrdr
When looking at diamonds there are 2 ways of looking at them “WOW pretty” and a more critical look.
Tradition has been for many stores to do all they can to put a customer in “WOW pretty” mode.
From the language used to the lighting, it is all geared to move the customer away from a critical evaluation.
The very best offer a mix of both, going over both the critical and the WOW pretty.
A quick overview of the 4c’s does not count as it will be followed by quickly distracting the customer.
Next time you’re in a store when you walk out what is the strongest impression you take with you?
WOW pretty and not remembering what the 4c’s or technical information are is the most common.
This can be a dangerous thing when spending thousands of dollars on something you or a loved one will wear for years and leads to many regrets.

This is why I am a huge advocate of using technology to help one give a diamond a more critical look.
When shopping online with the level of information provided by the top vendors it is possible to do the critical evaluation before you ever see the diamond in most cases.
Most online buying done at PS on the forums is done in the critical mode.
That is why a very common question is does this IS/ASET image look good rather than: is this a pretty diamond?
Some exceptions are for example is a diamond eyeclean, they must be looked at in a critical manner with in the return period as does the setting.
The best advice anyone can give is when shopping for diamonds move out of the “WOW pretty” way of looking at them for at least some of the time.
You will have a lifetime to enjoy the WOW pretty.

This is what I get from this.

Karl is saying for the rookie consumer to be aware not to be dazzled by all the pretty rocks on display in jewellery stores as for the most part even badly cut diamonds can show some sparkle if the lighting is right and to remember that some stores are set up to make their stones look good and show them to their best advantage. But a savvy buyer will " want to pop the hood" on the diamonds and not just rely on what looks nice in the shop, especially as in many cases thousands of dollars are involved, do your homework to make sure your hard earned money is well spent and just be aware diamonds are not created equal. As an analogy if I am buying a horse, I want to make sure the horse is healthy and fit for the task required of it, so it is good if I have some knowledge of aspects of health and fitness in order to make an informed decision that a particular horse is up to the job. Same with diamonds, some research and understanding of what you are buying can pay dividends so the buyer can enjoy the WOW factor for the rest of their lives! Read up and learn and compare as many different diamonds as you can and understand that store lighting is not how the diamond will normally be seen once it is purchased, and get to know what you like and value BEFORE you spend the money to lessen the chance of regrets.

For the new buyer I think the above is very useful advice and a good contrast to something we hear a lot " saw the diamonds in the store, wow they all looked good to me!!" This might help them realize that there is wheat and chaff to be sorted so to speak - if they want to go ahead and just purchase from what looks good to them then fine, but inform them so they know there is a way to be more selective and get the cut quality to give the sparkle they want. Time and time again I see posters with regrets on their own diamonds or asking why their friend's diamonds don't sparkle, well this could be a very useful first step to really get them enjoying the beauty of diamonds if they want, and like with any major purchase some research prior to purchase can be extremely valuable.

 

[Lula]

Rockdiamond, correct me if I'm wrong, is what you're saying is that you have seen, and purchased, many beautiful stones that do not have the best ASET/IS images, stones that clients may reject if they are only looking at stones with good ASET/IS images?

I would expect that with your level of knowledge (and this goes for other PS vendors, too) you would be able to tell me why a particular stone performs well despite its poor images. This would be fine by me, if I had a relationship with your business that was built on trust. I would trust your recommendations about a given stone because I would know you were coming from position of experience and knowledge.

I think what Storm is talking about is a very different level of retailing (that you refer to in your post), where the staff is not trained, the goods are not hand-selected for performance, the customer is not educated, and there's not a lot of time spent on building a trusting relationship with a client. This is a recipe for an expensive disappointment, and, I think, very different from the type of experience a client would have at your place of business.

 

[strmrdr]

David you have said in the past that you have a stone in your shop for 24 hours and look at it many times before you decide to buy it or pass on it.
That is another way of taking a critical look at diamonds.

Why shouldn''t consumers do the same? slow down and look beyond the "WOW pretty" in the way that bests suits them.
My favorite happens to be technology.

FancyDiamond prefers video and breaking down a diamonds performance into fire, scintillation, and brilliance.
Which is another way to do it.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Thank you Sara- we agree that many people walking into stores get misled.
Shoppers get misled by lighting, aggressive and poorly trained salespeople, and many other practices abhorred by every vendor posting here regularly.
It''s really a bad situation.
If I shop for diamonds online, it will take all of 5 seconds before I want to reach out and hit the computer screen!
There''s so much inaccurate info out there.
All this bad stuff seems to position the ASET/IS in an even more vital role.

Why does this not cause ASET/IS to be widely used when we take a broader view of the diamond business as a whole? Actually ASET IS are virtually unheard of in the wholesale diamond business overall. Aside from many of the wonderful vendors here on PS, just about EVERY wholesale buyer uses other methods for purchasing.
This would include places like Tiffany, Cartier, and Harry Winston.


Sara, in your thoughtful response you mentioned that a knowledgeable vendor would be able to explain why a stone looks good despite performing badly on ASET/IS.
In some ways, this would be like asking a seller why a stone that performs better on ASET/IS is actually better. Then it will come down to a dealer explaining his personal preferences. Can you explain why you love what you love? Maybe some of us can, but others can not.
No matter how much someone says Hearts and Arrows are better ( for example) others will not prefer these patterns in a diamond.

The decision to buy a diamond, when it''s my money, comes down to how the STONE looks. Not the GIA report, not an ASET or IS.

Lorelei, I think horses are a great analogy.
Say someone came up with a test for to tell if a horse was healthy. To make this analogy fitting the horse test would favor those horses that were black. The person who designed the test did not like white horses.
SO- the information that the test provided would be extremely useful for those looking for healthy black horses.
If one loved white horses, they''d be out of luck.

In some ways that''s how ASET/IS are used to exclude well cut diamonds that look great in real life, but do poorly on reflector tests.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 7/21/2009 3:44:44 PM
Author: strmrdr
David you have said in the past that you have a stone in your shop for 24 hours and look at it many times before you decide to buy it or pass on it.
That is another way of taking a critical look at diamonds.

Why shouldn''t consumers do the same? slow down and look beyond the ''WOW pretty'' in the way that bests suits them.
My favorite happens to be technology.

FancyDiamond prefers video and breaking down a diamonds performance into fire, scintillation, and brilliance.
Which is another way to do it.

100% correct Karl.
Without question this is an emotional issue- even if it''s discussing the technologies involved!
I thank you very much for acknowledging other methods.

I guess my only dispute with your original post was that you separated it into only 2 methods.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 7/21/2009 3:06:29 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
I agree with Garry here.
Not only is it a harsh analysis, it leaves ZERO room for different points of view.
Either do it your way, or it''s all fluff, smoke and mirrors.
Is that an accurate and balanced way of looking at this?


Without question, if a consumer wants ASET/IS the seller needs to supply them- or the consumer should walk.
However as FancyDiamond has pointed out, there''s many effective methods besides using ASET/IS.

I''ve already shown RBC stones where, in person, the stone with the lesser ASET/IS was more attractive to my eyes. What this means is that some buyers are not served by using ASET/IS as pre screening devices.

bright&shiny- at the highest levels of the diamond business, the importance of cut has long been well known.
I am so very thankful that many diamonds are cut using a cutter''s eye and experience as opposed to trying to cut a stone to satisfy ASET/IS or a cut chart.
If a cutter does not use these tools, that in no way should be taken to mean they are not placing a high priority on quality of cut- and in many cases, succeeding.

Again- there are consumers who find value in these tools- and kudos to Garry for being at the ''cutting edge'' in designing such advanced technologies. However not everyone will get the same value from them.
Of course, if someone asked for ASET/IS we''d provide it, but it does not rule how we buy.
On a given day, I might buy 50 diamonds. Should I trust my eyes, or an ASET?

I know you acknowledged this aspect Storm.

You also mentioned being able to separate ''fire, scintillation, an briliance''
What if the way someone sees a diamond does not fit into these names?
We''re using words to describe the way a diamond transmits light. IN that regard, assigning names to such charachteristics might be quite misleading, as we all see things differently - perception really does play a large role.

The fact is that what Storm observed in a jewelry store is common- misinformation, or lack of knowledgeable salespeople is HUGE problem at the retail level- both in stores and on the web.
A great reason for this site to exist is to assist consumers in avoiding the common pitfalls.

Sometime there''s a gang mentality here which attempts silence different ways of looking at this- and actually can lessen the value of the site IMO.
All due respect but how can one member speak for many?
Is that fair?
How would that allow for differing points of view to be heard?

David, this statement is really perplexing to me, especially coming from someone who sells diamonds.... These (fire, scint, brilliance) aren''t just random "names". If someone reads that and doesn''t know what it means, I''d say they need to do some reading, and educate themselves. These things exist, they''re not made up by Karl. They are THE things a decent cut diamond are supposed to possess. That''s the whole point. And everyone should know what they are. "We" aren''t the ones who assigned these names, but they exist in any decent cut diamond. If you have a problem with these "names", I''d suggest taking it up with GIA, AGS, and just about every other lab, because they all recognize these as a diamonds performance components.

In a decent cut stone, people will see these, even if they don''t know at first exactly what they are/that they have a name. But that doesn''t mean they don''t exist, and if we explain to them what they are, then they will look at the diamond in a more critical/different way, and see the stone for what it really is, or isn''t. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. In fact, there is everything right with that. I wish I''d had someone to teach me with my first engagement ring and studs.....

After one learns what the different parts to a diamonds performance are, then they can hone in on the slight nuances, and personal preferences.


“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime”—Author unknown

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hi Ellen,
Of course we agree that what we call Fire, Scintillation, and brilliance exist- my point is that quantifying them as is done here is not the only way to critically judge a diamond for appearance.
Many people can effectively buy diamonds although they don't try and separate and quantify the three.
Although we can describe these characteristics to a degree- there's still some interpretation. There are "concrete" aspects we use to judge a diamond- such as the weight, and physical measurements.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 7/21/2009 7:53:47 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Hi Ellen,
Of course we agree that what we call Fire, Scintillation, and brilliance exist- my point is that quantifying them as is done here is not the only way to critically judge a diamond for appearance.
Many people can effectively buy diamonds although they don't try and separate and quantify the three.
Although we can describe these characteristics to a degree- there's still some interpretation. There are 'concrete' aspects we use to judge a diamond- such as the weight, and physical measurements.

Ok, but you said "assigning names to such characteristics might be quite misleading". That's not misleading.

And if one doesn't have them pointed out, to judge between stones, can you tell me how one would critically judge a stone? I'm curious!

 

[Rockdiamond]

Ellen- clearly if someone knows how to separate these qualities in person, and are using ASET/IS, the tools can be very efficient in getting the type of diamond they want.
I''ve watched this site for years, and that has happened on countless occasions.
But no method is foolproof.

What if- just as a possibility- judging a diamond , for some, might incorporate a method where you would not need to be able to distinguish Fire, Brilliance and scintillation as three different things?
It''s possible that a very well cut diamond might have a different balance of F/S/B that one who distinguishes these things might find objectionable, the other observer ,seeing the three in combination, finds no deficiency.
Therefore if someone claims a diamond is "better" based on F/S/B it might not be an accurate statement for all observers.

 

[LaraOnline]

Date: 7/21/2009 7:37:18 PM
Author: Ellen
These (fire, scint, brilliance) aren''t just random ''names''. If someone reads that and doesn''t know what it means, I''d say they need to do some reading, and educate themselves. These things exist, they''re not made up by Karl. They are THE things a decent cut diamond are supposed to possess. That''s the whole point. And everyone should know what they are. ...

In a decent cut stone, people will see these, even if they don''t know at first exactly what they are/that they have a name. But that doesn''t mean they don''t exist, and if we explain to them what they are, then they will look at the diamond in a more critical/different way, and see the stone for what it really is, or isn''t. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. In fact, there is everything right with that. I wish I''d had someone to teach me with my first engagement ring and studs.....


After one learns what the different parts to a diamonds performance are, then they can hone in on the slight nuances, and personal preferences.


“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime”—Author unknown

This is excellently put, Ellen.
As a mug consumer, it is so interesting to be slowly learning how to ''tease out'' all the different strands (fire, brilliance, scintillation for starters) that go to make up a diamond''s ''Wow'' factor.

And, learning how these strands inter-relate, to create that diamond''s personality!

Technical knowledge doesn''t take away from the appreciation of a diamond... if anything, it''s the opposite... learning how to really ''see'' takes a bit of coaching, I think...

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Storm, you're a great guy and I love ya, but you are very cynical when it comes to retail jewelers.

The truth is that there are a multitude of retail jewelers who are experienced pros, and make their living pointing their customers towards the right product for them. Many are high integrity individuals trying to impart to their customers the years of experience they have in discerning diamonds of beauty.

And sometimes that beauty doesn't fall into the "cookie cutter" pattern of beauty promoted here as the ideal. The typical experienced jeweler handles more diamonds in a week than most pro-sumers here see in a year. He or she is an experienced judge of beauty, and his or her efforts are oriented towards helping their clients to the best of their ability, which is often quite profound and without the guile that you seem to assume most of them have.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 7/21/2009 11:54:23 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood

And sometimes that beauty doesn''t fall into the ''cookie cutter'' pattern of beauty promoted here as the ideal.

There are many different types of diamonds that people that post here buy.

I believe that learning to look critically at diamonds both online and in person leads to opening ones mind to consider other diamonds rather than closing it.
"Ideal" cuts are a safe choice so they will always be a large part of PS.
The key to moving beyond that safety net is being comfortable taking a critical look at diamonds.
It has for me as my diamond journey evolved.
As my knowledge of diamonds grew my comfort zone expanded.
I think that the majority of regulars here will tell you the same thing happened with them.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 7/21/2009 11:54:23 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood
Storm, you''re a great guy and I love ya, but you are very cynical when it comes to retail jewelers.

I am just as cynical when it comes to online jewelers as are many others here.
Question everything and verify all answers has always been the way I approach things.
It has served me well.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 7/21/2009 9:12:07 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Ellen- clearly if someone knows how to separate these qualities in person, and are using ASET/IS, the tools can be very efficient in getting the type of diamond they want.
I''ve watched this site for years, and that has happened on countless occasions.
But no method is foolproof.

What if- just as a possibility- judging a diamond , for some, might incorporate a method where you would not need to be able to distinguish Fire, Brilliance and scintillation as three different things?
It''s possible that a very well cut diamond might have a different balance of F/S/B that one who distinguishes these things might find objectionable, the other observer ,seeing the three in combination, finds no deficiency.
Therefore if someone claims a diamond is ''better'' based on F/S/B it might not be an accurate statement for all observers.

I''m not even talking about the use of these right now, and I never mentioned them in my post. Let''s leave them out for now. I''m just talking about fire/scint/brilliance.


As for the second highlight, what "method" would that be David? That''s what I would like you to elaborate on please. If you personally don''t point these out to your clients and explain them, what do you do when showing diamonds to clients? How do you help them to learn what they may or may not/do and do not like in a diamond? How do you help them learn what a well cut diamond vs. a not so well cut diamond look like?

 

[Ellen]

Date: 7/21/2009 10:56:18 PM
Author: LaraOnline

Date: 7/21/2009 7:37:18 PM
Author: Ellen
These (fire, scint, brilliance) aren't just random 'names'. If someone reads that and doesn't know what it means, I'd say they need to do some reading, and educate themselves. These things exist, they're not made up by Karl. They are THE things a decent cut diamond are supposed to possess. That's the whole point. And everyone should know what they are. ...

In a decent cut stone, people will see these, even if they don't know at first exactly what they are/that they have a name. But that doesn't mean they don't exist, and if we explain to them what they are, then they will look at the diamond in a more critical/different way, and see the stone for what it really is, or isn't. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. In fact, there is everything right with that. I wish I'd had someone to teach me with my first engagement ring and studs.....


After one learns what the different parts to a diamonds performance are, then they can hone in on the slight nuances, and personal preferences.


“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime”—Author unknown

This is excellently put, Ellen.
As a mug consumer, it is so interesting to be slowly learning how to 'tease out' all the different strands (fire, brilliance, scintillation for starters) that go to make up a diamond's 'Wow' factor.

And, learning how these strands inter-relate, to create that diamond's personality!

Technical knowledge doesn't take away from the appreciation of a diamond... if anything, it's the opposite... learning how to really 'see' takes a bit of coaching, I think...

It's fun isn't it? And it's something every jeweler should do for newbie customers, help us learn. Sadly, most of us have to come here to learn this stuff. Luckily, we do have this place.

And thank you!




Rich, I am just as cynical as strm. And so are countless other people on here. Why? Because we have good reason. I'm sure there are decent, knowledgeable jewelers out there, but they are not a dime a dozen. Far from it. More like a needle in a haystack.

 

[elle_chris]

Date: 7/21/2009 4:00:50 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Thank you Sara- we agree that many people walking into stores get misled.
Shoppers get misled by lighting, aggressive and poorly trained salespeople, and many other practices abhorred by every vendor posting here regularly.
It''s really a bad situation.
If I shop for diamonds online, it will take all of 5 seconds before I want to reach out and hit the computer screen!
There''s so much inaccurate info out there.
All this bad stuff seems to position the ASET/IS in an even more vital role.

Why does this not cause ASET/IS to be widely used when we take a broader view of the diamond business as a whole? Actually ASET IS are virtually unheard of in the wholesale diamond business overall. Aside from many of the wonderful vendors here on PS, just about EVERY wholesale buyer uses other methods for purchasing.
This would include places like Tiffany, Cartier, and Harry Winston.


Sara, in your thoughtful response you mentioned that a knowledgeable vendor would be able to explain why a stone looks good despite performing badly on ASET/IS.
In some ways, this would be like asking a seller why a stone that performs better on ASET/IS is actually better. Then it will come down to a dealer explaining his personal preferences. Can you explain why you love what you love? Maybe some of us can, but others can not.
No matter how much someone says Hearts and Arrows are better ( for example) others will not prefer these patterns in a diamond.

The decision to buy a diamond, when it''s my money, comes down to how the STONE looks. Not the GIA report, not an ASET or IS.

Lorelei, I think horses are a great analogy.
Say someone came up with a test for to tell if a horse was healthy. To make this analogy fitting the horse test would favor those horses that were black. The person who designed the test did not like white horses.
SO- the information that the test provided would be extremely useful for those looking for healthy black horses.
If one loved white horses, they''d be out of luck.

In some ways that''s how ASET/IS are used to exclude well cut diamonds that look great in real life, but do poorly on reflector tests.

I think the first part I hightlighted comes down to cost. It costs to buy the equipment, learn how to use it, then train your staff. Also, If a cutter is aiming for a particualr weight, the above tools do them a disfavor as they''re not going for "beauty", but rather a carat weight that can move in the market as fast as possible.

As far as the decision to buy based on looks and not the gia report, well, i disagree with this as well. GIA/AGS stones sell for more. GIA excellents and AGS Ideals for even more. If I''m putting money down on a stone, the report does make a huge difference. These diamonds cost more for a reason. If you go into any store, or even do a search here on PS, stones with GIA excellents, AGS0 that have numbers that fall into the ideal category are more expensive. Now, even if i knew nothing about cut, i''d still want to know why that is. However, very few sales people will say it''s considered a better stone.

I do agree that in the end, we all have different taste and that does factor in when buying a stone. Some like them brighter, some more fire, some want the biggest bang for the buck and don''t care at all about cut. But, there''s no denying that at least some of the cost is based on the cut, and i think it is the jewelers responsibility to explain this instead of just pushing the customer towards a stone they want to sell.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 7/22/2009 2:29:01 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 7/21/2009 11:54:23 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood

And sometimes that beauty doesn''t fall into the ''cookie cutter'' pattern of beauty promoted here as the ideal.

There are many different types of diamonds that people that post here buy.

I believe that learning to look critically at diamonds both online and in person leads to opening ones mind to consider other diamonds rather than closing it.
''Ideal'' cuts are a safe choice so they will always be a large part of PS.
The key to moving beyond that safety net is being comfortable taking a critical look at diamonds.
It has for me as my diamond journey evolved.
As my knowledge of diamonds grew my comfort zone expanded.
I think that the majority of regulars here will tell you the same thing happened with them.

Yes, I think I fall into this category as well. Now that I have learned more and know what a great performing diamonds can and should do, I am more comfortable assessing diamonds that I see and "trusting my eyes" because my eyes are now well educated

As a note, I am also very cynical about retail jewelers. Too many bad expeirences to remain blissfully content