A Discussion On Bias

[Lorelei]

Treefrog

I don't know if you will come back to read this thread again but I wanted to say I admired and liked you from the minute you joined Pricescope because of what you do on the boards, now that liking and admiration has increased so much because of what you do outside them also. THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 7/26/2009 5:41:56 AM
Author: Lorelei
Treefrog



I don't know if you will come back to read this thread again but I wanted to say I admired and liked you from the minute you joined Pricescope because of what you do on the boards, now that liking and admiration has increased so much because of what you do outside them also. THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ditto Loz. Treefrog I don't blame you for opting out of this thread now.
Your contribution was well thought out and meaningful.
RD's, clearly Not.



So, here we have RD telling off a consumer on one hand for *potentially* offending
a Daussi cushion owner with his comments (CCL).
But on the other, directly and clearly offending a member without thought to his feelings, about a *real life* topic.
Can anyone say the H word

 

[jet2ks]

Judah,

Prior to reading this thread, I had no clue of any history with Excel and PS. After reading it, I can say I really don't care about the past. I have found your contributions to this forum to be thoughtful and positive. The threads you start are obviously meant in a peacemaking role, trying to diffuse another tense thread and refocus discussion on a pertinent topic. (I would suggest, though, that you wait a while longer to start these in order to let feelings die down).

On your original point as it relates to your company, as an FYI. I have recommended some posters work with Excel, usually referring them to you personally. I do, however, find your database very difficult to search. If that aspect of the website was improved, I think you would get more stone referrals from PS. Best of luck to you.

All that said, pardon the threadjack in my next post.

 

[jet2ks]

David,

When I read you first post from last night, I couldn't believe that anyone would actually think such a thing, much less post such remarks. I let it go, not planning to reply, but your next post went WAY too far. Not only did you insult treefrog by blaming him for your lack of judgement, you insulted the many family and friends I (and others) have that serve as volunteer firemen and EMT's.

Date: 7/26/2009 1:56:31 AM
Author: treefrog
Rockdiamond,

I feel insulted. My analogy was a real situation. Your comment about having an 'online' trained firefighter isn't even a possibility. I'm not playing 'what if's' with you. I can create ficticious analogies on the expert side of the fence as well. I don't, however, live in a fantasy world and it would add nothing credible to this topic.

Amazing how someone who has been here for only 2 months has you figured out already, isnt it? If you can't use PS as it is intended and take posts as a whole in the spirit which they were intended, then cancel your account and don't come back!

As for me, I am not only done with this thread, I am done with you as a poster, business and person.

 

[Moh 10]

Ironic how a thread decrying positive vendor bias results in so much negative vendor bias.

 

[Lula]

Sigh...I got up this morning hoping that this thread would head in a positive direction after Tree's wonderful post. But it was not to be.

RockDiamond, I have tried to see your side of things; I really have. I've even agreed with you on occasions when I thought you made a good point or were being unfairly singled out. But you're on some sort of death spiral here. I have to agree with RisingSun and the others who have said you just don't get it. I'm sorry, but some "tough love" seems to be in order here.

Judah, thank you for starting this thread. People have definitely shown their true colors here. I must say, before this thread I had very little awareness of you or your business (though when I was searching for a diamond, I did find your website tough to use). My opinion of you now is very favorable. I did a search for your name and found some lovely posts from your customers recommending you, and I found many posts by you offering a comment or help to posters.

I also noticed that you have under 300 posts, while Wink, Todd, Rhino, Richard Sherwood, and others have post counts in the thousands. They have all been members since the early 2000's, and you have been a member for a much shorter time. However, given the positive contributions I saw in your posts, I think, with time, you will do quite well on PS. Good luck to you.

 

[DiamondFlame]

Date: 7/26/2009 9:25:23 AM
Author: Moh 10
Ironic how a thread decrying vendor bias has resulted in so much of it.

Sad but true. Putting one's foot in one's mouth seems be an acquired skill for some but comes naturally for others. I work in the healthcare industry and see death almost on a daily basis so I have the utmost respect for those who volunteer their time saving lives, often at risk of personal injury. When you compare that to the act of 'agonising' over diamond characteristics, what we do here begin to look ridiculously self indulgent.

I'm done with this thread too in lieu of an old advice: if you have nothing worth saying, then say nothing.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 7/26/2009 1:56:31 AM
Author: treefrog
Rockdiamond,


I feel insulted. My analogy was a real situation. Your comment about having an ''online'' trained firefighter isn''t even a possibility. I''m not playing ''what if''s'' with you. I can create ficticious analogies on the expert side of the fence as well. I don''t, however, live in a fantasy world and it would add nothing credible to this topic.


Judah, I did not read the historical posts. They don''t matter to me. Very enlightening topic. Seriously. Best of luck to you.


Sarap333, Gypsy, arjunajane, etc. Thank you.


Like Gypsy, I am done here.


Treefrog

Hi Treefrog,
All due respect- and again, thank you for your service- but you also made insulting remarks in with your analogy.
If this is a discussion, and open to ideas, a comment may get discussed.


Although we all agree there''s clearly no comparison between buying a diamond, and a firefighter, you used this analogy.

DO you feel one can become a diamond expert online?

As this is a conversation about bias- this whole exchange shows it acutely.

Are diamond professionals people too? Or is it fine to simlply hurl ridiculous insults at them
Those who so vigorisly defend a post like CCLs while completley ignoring the baseless insulting nature of it re-enforce this bias.

Thanks again Judah.

 

[Moh 10]

No! He DIDN'T!!!

 

[Lula]

He did. It''s a death spiral, I tell ya.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hi sara,
As we''ve already clarified, thank goodness, no one''s life is threatened by an internet discussion.

But this is an important topic therefor worth the risk.

An example of how important: A person threatened Judah ( if you live in a glass house,etc) then followed through in an attempt to somehow cast aspersions on his company and father.
Is that ok?

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 7/26/2009 10:09:18 AM
Author: Rockdiamond
Hi Treefrog,
All due respect- and again, thank you for your service- but you also made insulting remarks in with your analogy.

I am absolutely on the edge of my seat ready for these "insulting remarks" to be revealed. As, gosh darn it, I couldn''t find a one in Treefrog''s carefully worded & even-handed post. Tuning up my world''s smallest violin just in case.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 7/25/2009 10:09:43 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood

Date: 7/25/2009 12:42:05 PM
Author: Ellen
Rich,
Lastly, if you are unhappy with what is being said sometimes, why don''t you jump in and add your very valuable opinions? I think that might help a lot more than just berating us in public.

You are one of my favorite people on here, I think you know that. I both like, and respect you very much (the latter was earned btw, the former was instant

). So I hope you take my thoughts with the sincere intentions they were written.

Okayyyyyy..........I apologize.

Let''s all have a beer together in the White House.

Thank you Rich, apology accepted!

And you know me, I''d love to have a beer with you, the prez, that really smart guy and whoever else will be there. Speaking of, you think Rahm might join us? He''s kinda hot.

 

[Lula]

RockDiamond: Huh?

Ellen: Ditto on Rahm!

 

[risingsun]

Date: 7/26/2009 10:14:23 AM
Author: Moh 10
No! He DIDN'T!!!

Oh yes he did!! He is unable to see his part in how he is perceived on this board. It is always someone else's fault and he's always the injured party

 

[Moh 10]

Date: 7/26/2009 10:46:51 AM
Author: decodelighted

Date: 7/26/2009 10:09:18 AM

Author: Rockdiamond

Hi Treefrog,

All due respect- and again, thank you for your service- but you also made insulting remarks in with your analogy.

I am absolutely on the edge of my seat ready for these 'insulting remarks' to be revealed. As, gosh darn it, I couldn't find a one in Treefrog's carefully worded & even-handed post. Tuning up my world's smallest violin just in case.

In case?
Take the violin out of the case so it's easier to tune.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 7/26/2009 10:09:18 AM
Author: Rockdiamond

Hi Treefrog,
All due respect- and again, thank you for your service- but you also made insulting remarks in with your analogy.
If this is a discussion, and open to ideas, a comment may get discussed.


Although we all agree there's clearly no comparison between buying a diamond, and a firefighter, you used this analogy.

DO you feel one can become a diamond expert online?

As this is a conversation about bias- this whole exchange shows it acutely.

Are diamond professionals people too? Or is it fine to simlply hurl ridiculous insults at them
Those who so vigorisly defend a post like CCLs while completley ignoring the baseless insulting nature of it re-enforce this bias.

Thanks again Judah.

No, but then, none of us are calling ourselves experts David, those are your words, not ours. We're simply a bit more savvy than the average person when it comes to diamonds. A lot of what we've learned here has been from listening to the real experts. But we have also learned from our real life experiences. You forget, or rather, refuse to recognize, that many of us bought diamonds pre-pricescope. We went the whole "trust your eyes"/"trust the jeweler" route, and ended up with so so, or worse stones. Then we found this place, and learned about cut, and its importance. We bought well cut stones and then compared them to what we'd had. We see differences. We know enough now to help people, without the need for classes. Do we know as much as the experts? No, but then we don't really have to. What we do works. It isn't perfect, but it works. This site is all about consumers helping consumers.


David, the situation with you would almost be comical at this point, if you hadn't offended so many people along the way. You would do well to actually listen to the negative comments (or any comment for that matter) that have come your way (and that includes CCL's post, I know for a fact she said exactly what many think, but wouldn't say) they are not without merit David. (and I could illustrate that point, but I really am not trying to publicly bash you) They are not "baseless".... However, since you only cherry pick comments you want to recognize, that being a minute percentage of what is said to you, I fully expect you won't.

 

[Moh 10]

I echo Ellen.

Do prosumers know as much as a GG, or a pro with years of experience?
Of course not.
But the main job here doesn't require it.

The main job here is helping 99% of newbies get a much better quality diamond for less.
The prosumers here get an A+ for doing that!

Sure, some inquiries here require the expertise of true experts, and we have a few wonderful ones.
Occasionally a prosumer wanders into giving advice that is over his/her head but the pros speak up to clarify things.
It is a wonderful self-correcting and transparent system we have here.

Imagine if only pros were allowed to speak.
The sheer volume of newbies would put you out of business.

Nothing is broken here.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 7/26/2009 11:36:20 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 7/26/2009 10:09:18 AM
Author: Rockdiamond

Hi Treefrog,
All due respect- and again, thank you for your service- but you also made insulting remarks in with your analogy.
If this is a discussion, and open to ideas, a comment may get discussed.


Although we all agree there''s clearly no comparison between buying a diamond, and a firefighter, you used this analogy.

DO you feel one can become a diamond expert online?

As this is a conversation about bias- this whole exchange shows it acutely.

Are diamond professionals people too? Or is it fine to simlply hurl ridiculous insults at them
Those who so vigorisly defend a post like CCLs while completley ignoring the baseless insulting nature of it re-enforce this bias.

Thanks again Judah.

No, but then, none of us are calling ourselves experts David, those are your words, not ours. We''re simply a bit more savvy than the average person when it comes to diamonds. A lot of what we''ve learned here has been from listening to the real experts. But we have also learned from our real life experiences. You forget, or rather, refuse to recognize, that many of us bought diamonds pre-pricescope. We went the whole ''trust your eyes''/''trust the jeweler'' route, and ended up with so so, or worse stones. Then we found this place, and learned about cut, and its importance. We bought well cut stones and then compared them to what we''d had. We see differences. We know enough now to help people, without the need for classes. Do we know as much as the experts? No, but then we don''t really have to. What we do works. It isn''t perfect, but it works. This site is all about consumers helping consumers.

Word.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hi All,
Sorry if anyone felt insulted.

Whether or not it''s done purposely, many of the prosumers do position themselves as experts.
They may say they are not an expert, then proceed to dispense advice that would require an expert regardless.

When a single person comes on and says "We all feel this way", as treefrog did- it''s insulting to others who may feel differently. Other posters in this thread also mentioned that comparing prosumers and or diamond experts to firefighters was an insult to firefighters.

Clearly a lot of people feel one way. However unless the people in question want to form a group ( or posse or gang or whatever you want to call it) each of us can only speak for ourselves here.
If the idea is to suppress any alternative viewpoint Moh10 is correct, nothing is broken.


Sara- Judah was openly threatened in this thread- that''s what I as referring to.

My point Sara is that such a threat shows the extent of malice.



Now I''ll join the others who have left this thread- and best of luck to all.

 

[glitterata]

David, a little friendly advice: Do yourself a favor and stop arguing angrily with the consumers.

I know you wholeheartedly believe you''re right, and you might actually BE right about some things. But yelling at people won''t make them acknowledge that you''re right. It will just make them think of you as the mean, nasty vendor who yelled at the nice firefighter. That will make them less likely to listen to what you have to say, and it will cost you business.

Who would want to buy a diamond from someone who yells at people and insults customers?

I don''t care who you think started it. You''re the one who looks bad if you don''t stop it.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 7/26/2009 12:41:15 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Hi All,
Sorry if anyone felt insulted.

Whether or not it's done purposely, many of the prosumers do position themselves as experts.
They may say they are not an expert, then proceed to dispense advice that would require an expert regardless.

I have to disagree at the above statement being one of the longest serving consumer posters here, I want to add my thoughts on the above. I and some of the other veteran consumers make absolutely sure that posters realize WE ARE NOT experts and to realize how Pricescope works, that the majority of posters are just consumers like myself with some knowledge - I approach every post with care to try not to overstep my bounds, in fact that is something I have always taken great care to do, not only so that posters know where any advice offered is coming from, but also so that I don't overstep the line and set myself up alongside the wonderful experts we have here. I have the UTMOST respect for their expertise, experience and knowledge and would never try to get posters to see me in the same light. It is a difficult line to walk when advising, like I often say anyone can offer advice here, but it is doing it well that is the difficult part. I have worked for years here to try to help others and I am very conscious of the good reputation I have AS A CONSUMER. I know for a fact I have helped many here to find great diamonds and I am proud of the role I play here. I am also not scared to say " I don't know" when I don't know the answer and direct a poster to someone who can help them. I feel a great sense of responsibility to those I seek to help, I have great pride in my role and good standing here and also....

I do not position nor advertise myself as an expert.

I do not have over 30k and if I might use the term mainly quality posts here ( the majority of which are in RT) because I get a thrill from being thought of as an expert. I spend the time here that I do because I enjoy helping people buy a beautiful diamond. I do not want people to think of me as an expert in anyway, in fact I gave up a little while ago trying to point this out to people with so many thread titles saying..

Expert Help Please

Noob Needs Expert Input

Experts What Do you Think

Etc etc. A while ago I was on a mission to try to point out to the new posters that the majority of us are not experts and although this was a consumer forum in the main, did they want just expert advice? If so then I would try to page an expert for them. I received various eyerolling remarks to the effect of " No I don't want an expert as such, just people who know their stuff." It would appear that the vet prosumers know " their stuff" well enough to have been of real help to many judging by the positive feedback we often get.

So to me it is important as with any large purchase, know where your advice is coming from and go with what makes the best sense to you. I certainly wouldn't base a large purchase on the advice of some random person on the net without making the effort to do some research. Although I have a very high post count I am well aware that a high post count does not a knowledgeable poster make, as I said previously anyone can sign up here and offer advice, so for the new poster I would say read and get from it what makes sense to you but do your own homework. This is after all a forum, some opinions or advice offered might not be accurate, consumer posters are not created equal so make sure you have all the advice and education you need BEFORE spending thousands on a diamond.

 

[Moh 10]

Date: 7/26/2009 12:41:15 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

If the idea is to suppress any alternative viewpoint Moh10 is correct, nothing is broken.

OMG!

David you have a gift.
You have a way of twisting even MY words (your harshest critic) to your benefit.

I'm starting to think you are just rich and don't need DBL sales and are just an Internet troll.
A troll studies a board then posts things designed to get everyone all wound up, then sits back and enjoys the show.

I am positive you are lowering your sales by your presence here at PS, and you are running out of feet to shoot yourself in.

 

[Lula]

Date: 7/26/2009 12:41:15 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Hi All,

Sorry if anyone felt insulted.


Whether or not it's done purposely, many of the prosumers do position themselves as experts.

They may say they are not an expert, then proceed to dispense advice that would require an expert regardless.


When a single person comes on and says 'We all feel this way', as treefrog did- it's insulting to others who may feel differently. Other posters in this thread also mentioned that comparing prosumers and or diamond experts to firefighters was an insult to firefighters.


Clearly a lot of people feel one way. However unless the people in question want to form a group ( or posse or gang or whatever you want to call it) each of us can only speak for ourselves here.

If the idea is to suppress any alternative viewpoint Moh10 is correct, nothing is broken.



Sara- Judah was openly threatened in this thread- that's what I as referring to.


My point Sara is that such a threat shows the extent of malice.




Now I'll join the others who have left this thread- and best of luck to all.

Judah seems quite capable of defending himself, and he responded to this "threat" appropriately in an earlier post.

I agree with Glitterata, and would add that your need to engage in dead-end behavior here baffles me, i.e., continuing to bash the prosumers who, I believe, do a great service to consumers like me, and, who, I might add, know the difference between expert and prosumer. If they didn't, I'm sure the PS administrator would have had a word with them long before any of them got to the thousands and tens of thousands of posts they have written.

What baffles me the most is that I see you responding in a helpful way to newbies and other posters who have questions (just this morning you gave a great response to the poster looking at CE diamonds) and then you turn around and bash some of the most well-meaning and dedicated prosumers (and other experts) on this site!

This does not do your business any good! Stop the insanity!!!!

 

[Rockdiamond]

I did say I'm leaving this thread - and I am- but I did want to address Lorelei's post before I do so-

This conversation has become so polarized. The fact is it's not so cut and dried.
Lorelei, although what I wrote does happen a lot, it's not true for every consumer posting. I never meant to include you in my statement.
Without a doubt, you always position your posts in such a way that it's clear who you are, and how your advice is being given. You're not alone as there are many consumers posting that way....a big part of what makes this a great site.

As long as I did stop back- thank you Glitteria and Sara. I feel that your posts are genuinely written and caring.

MOH if I was depending on you and some of the other vocal posters on this thread to recommend DBL for my livelihood, I'd have been in trouble a long time ago.

 

[Rock_of_Love]

Date: 7/26/2009 12:41:15 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Hi All,
Sorry if anyone felt insulted.

Whether or not it''s done purposely, many of the prosumers do position themselves as experts.
They may say they are not an expert, then proceed to dispense advice that would require an expert regardless.

When a single person comes on and says ''We all feel this way'', as treefrog did- it''s insulting to others who may feel differently. Other posters in this thread also mentioned that comparing prosumers and or diamond experts to firefighters was an insult to firefighters.

Clearly a lot of people feel one way. However unless the people in question want to form a group ( or posse or gang or whatever you want to call it) each of us can only speak for ourselves here.
If the idea is to suppress any alternative viewpoint Moh10 is correct, nothing is broken.


Sara- Judah was openly threatened in this thread- that''s what I as referring to.

My point Sara is that such a threat shows the extent of malice.



Now I''ll join the others who have left this thread- and best of luck to all.

NO ONE was offended by treefrog except for you...and EVERYONE was offended by your taking that analogy to different level.

Seriously, RD, why do you continue to dig your own proverbial PS grave with such a LARGE shovel?? I am a noob here who has receieved A LOT of wonderful help and assistance from "prosumers" "experts" "vendors" and even other "noobs" and "regular consumers." But even I, a noob, have noticed your trend here on PS and I felt compelled to remark. Everytime I see you in a thread I''m always waiting for some insulting remark to fly out of your keyboard...and usually it does. I literally have come to expect this from you. This is sad, but I have become entertained by your comments and I can''t look away, sort of like a trainwreck. And, this thread is no exception.

I don''t understand why you can''t see this? Or, maybe you just don''t care what others (including potential customers) think? I''m not really sure. But, I''m sure you''ll attack me next...so bring it on...

 

[Moh 10]

Date: 7/26/2009 1:13:49 PM
Author: Rockdiamond



MOH if I was depending on you and some of the other vocal posters on this thread to recommend DBL for my livelihood, I'd have been in trouble a long time ago.

The few recommendations from us, or lack thereof, are not as significant as zillions of potential customers forming their own negative opinion of DBL based solely on what you post here David.

I am astonished that you either have no clue or don't care how you, a diamond seller, come across on this public diamond forum.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 7/26/2009 1:13:49 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
I did say I''m leaving this thread - and I am- but I did want to address Lorelei''s post before I do so-

This conversation has become so polarized. The fact is it''s not so cut and dried.
Lorelei, although what I wrote does happen a lot, it''s not true for every consumer posting. I never meant to include you in my statement.
Without a doubt, you always position your posts in such a way that it''s clear who you are, and how your advice is being given. You''re not alone as there are many consumers posting that way....a big part of what makes this a great site.

As long as I did stop back- thank you Glitteria and Sara. I feel that your posts are genuinely written and caring.

MOH if I was depending on you and some of the other vocal posters on this thread to recommend DBL for my livelihood, I''d have been in trouble a long time ago.

RD,

You seem to have maintained the respect over the year of some of the professionals here and certainly have more experience than most of us posters. If you want to extend that respect to include everyone and myself included please write articles and informative on your particular niche of the market. I would be very happy to read your approch to choosing colored stones if you can educate and organize this as a section on your website, an Education FAQ here, or an organized and well edited post on choosing fancy cut colorless or coloured fancy cut diamonds. Take any area you are particularly passionate about and please do show us how you would screen in this area.

The key to presenting this information is in a COMPARISON between bad and good and what criteria you look for above and beyond just blindly looking at stones. I liked your explanation of 61% RB versus 59% RB, that argument is very helpful and carries a lot of educational value. As a consumer I just might choose a 61% non ideal because I value the spread more than any slight difference in brightness or fire.

I am sure by now you have taken a look at thousands of certificates and or sarins reports on diamonds you particularly liked and considered the ones that fell outside of the "ideal safe" ranges. We want to be be primarily educated here on Pricescope forums the buying aspect is secondary, however you can do both if you provide information and put effort into explaining why these diamonds that fall outside of the ranges are good performers. Beyond the certificate number there must be a story as to why these stones perform well and the sarin numbers would confirm this and allow you to find other stones like them. At the very least we would understand the logic of your approach, and it might lead to a whole lot more internet business being brought your way.

You may believe the idea "All publicity is good publicity" but I think you would agree you would capture a lot more business if regular posters and prosumers here were praising and reccomending you rather than only focussing on your shortcomings.

 

[Rockdiamond]

HI Ccl- if I wanted a good reason to return to the thread, I just got one.
Thank you VERY much.
Believe me, I am not anxious to argue with you - or anyone.
I sincerely thank you for the wonderfully constructive criticism.
We have made a lot of effort to add as much info to the DBL site as possible.

Part of what makes our site rather unique is that instead of simply posting GIA or AGSL stats, ASET/IS reports,and photos, each diamond or ring gets a personal write up.
Seeing as how Blue Nile is the largest internet seller- and their site doesn''t even include photos- much less ASET/IS, maybe we''re not correct including all the hand written descriptions and photos.
However, over the years, we''ve gotten many thousands of letters expressing gratitude that we took the time to write about each stone.

ON the negative side is the fact that it''s far easier to make an error if you''re actually writing things- as opposed to having a computer spit them out.

Part of your suggestion was something I took on board when I recently re-joined PS.
In the past I might have said "This is a really well cut diamond" and left it at that.
Today based on comments like yours here on PS, I take more effort to describe specifically why I like the cut of the diamond.

Part of your suggestion, also a great one- was to write more articles ( I have written quite a few which are on our site already)
Thankfully, we are quite busy here- even with the current economic downturn- and each and every new stone coming in requires it''s own write up, so time is always a factor....however, clearly, it would be a great addition.
Garry also graciously invited me to write a follow up article to the discussion on polish.
It''s just a matter of time.


Part of this "conflict" as it were, has to do with the way one looks at diamond sellers in general.

The problem starts, many times, with one of the bad Sales associates being discussed in another thread.
Without a doubt, I''m ashamed - as a diamond professional- at the conduct of many salespeople out there.
I cringe when looking at much of my competition on eBay.
I want to throw up seeing how many websites are categorizing their poorly cut diamonds "Ideal" without a whit of proof.
PS is a logical reaction to this.
ASET/IS are a logical reaction to this.

What I- and other professionals here on this thread- are trying to say, that seems to get a lot of vocal posters angry, is that there sometimes is an over-reaction to this on PS

You- and many others- have mentioned "safe" diamonds.
Part of this over-reaction can be to eliminate stones that might be perfect for the buyer, in an attempt to be "safe"
I have seen you give excellent advice recently CCL- where someone was looking at a J color ( I believe)
You told them to go have a look at J colors so that they could decide whether they needed to spend for a higher color.

When it comes to cut, the same thing applies.
It may very well be that some of the folks that come here for advice might prefer the larger table diamond I used for the comparison you mentioned.
However, in terms of the perceptions here, they might very likely be told to stay with the AGS stone- which happens to cost more.

It may very well be that a newbie has actually found a good retail jeweler ( if Judah, myself and Rich are correct, and they do actually exist out there) who has a stone that, like the one I used for the comparison, does not score as well on ASET, but is more appealing to the eye.
It may very well be that if there is a decent retail jeweler out there- and if that jeweler buys diamonds for stock, they may not even use ASET/IS- or know what it is.
It is conceivable that someone not very familiar with diamonds reading PS might automatically decide that since the seller does not operate like PS, he''s either is not honest- or caries badly cut diamonds.

There''s no question a problem of misrepresentation exists looking at the broad retail market.
There''s no question people like Gypsy, Ellen Lorelei and others do what they do in a genuine effort to assist people shopping - to protect them from the bad sellers.

There''s no perfect system- but PS is pretty good.
The thread- started by Judah- seemed to be a safe place to discuss these issue of "over-protection" which can turn into bias.

Anyway, thanks for having and open mind CCL and throwing something positive into the discussion.

 

[T L]

The only thing I will say on this is that bias is not just about diamonds, but there is a huge bias for diamonds as e-rings, and I think that "international bias" has spawned an industry that over inflates the price of a relatively common stone - colorless diamonds.