Wow, CvB just called out DK for copying one of her designs.

[winnietucker]

I wouldn't say it's ok.
I myself wouldn't take a BG design to a jeweler and have it recreated. Some elements- sure.
I always ask the owner of rings for permission of possibly using their unique elements tho. They've always been gracious.
I've never been asked about my octagon. However- been told on here multiple times, as an after thought, that my ring image has been given to designers as inspiration for theirs. I posted it here. It's out there. It's ok.

Got it. I’m going to remember this for all my future projects. Thanks!

 

[prinsad]

I think you should rest easy since it was a vintage ring and most any 3 stone design you can think of has likely been done before. But I dunno, this topic is interesting to me whenever it comes up b/c the answers aren't black & white. Let's see your ring and inspo photos!

I have sold the ring, you might recognize it though!
VB’s Meghan (I hope it’s okay I used his photo):

The ring I had DK make:

 

[bludiva]

I have sold the ring, you might recognize it though!
VB’s Meghan (I hope it’s okay I used his photo):

The ring I had DK make:

Ah yes! I'm guessing based on this thread no one would fine it objectionable since it the original is a vintage ring...I personally think the instagram call out post is kind of tacky but not sure if cvb is justifiably upset or not. Would like to see photos of that DK version from more angles.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I cannot claim that mine is an original design that's never been done. I won't claim that the elements are unique and original. However I can claim that they were put together by myself and TGP, and was used very strongly as CVB/ring owner's inspiration and presented as CVB's unique /bespoke creation.

However - I can claim that CVB is not practicing what she preaches. I'm not saying DK isn't guilty of not crediting any other designer as inspiration, or doing due diligence of researching the images he receives as inspirations or directions. But neither does CVB. Unless TGP wants to come on here and offer the information that she indeed was approached or credited and I'm ignorant to that fact? Then I'll eat crow. I like crow pastry.

I am 100% certain that Caysie doesn't get inspiration from TGP, although it is certainly possible someone used your ring as inspiration to show her elements they like. Caysie had made an engraved octagonal halo for Yennyfire, as well. Art deco octagonal halos are not new and original, neither is putting onyx and platinum. The shank is different, the center stone bezel is totally different. I can't see the galleries, but they likely are different. Victor Canera also as a similar ring but he did a pave outer halo. In fact, I know Caysie first did one octagonal ring with pave outer halo because I saw the picture of it, but the next person wanted an engraved halo with the onyx.

Here are some antique rings:





(1925)


Just so you know, I love your ring. I love the octagonal art deco designs and my last piece was an octagonal deco pendant, but it was an original design, not based on an existing (antique) pendant. I did request the same engraving that was on her octagonal onyx ring and had even considered making a ring like that. I honestly didn't see it as a copy of yours since there are so many antique octagonal onyx rings out there. I am really sorry you feel that way, though.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I read that and was wondering if it was okay to replicate an antique ring. I had DK use one of VBs 3 stones as inspiration for a ring I had made. I had 3 different inspiration rings but it turned out a lot like Victor Barbones vintage one. Now I’m curious if that’s okay after reading her post calling DK out.

Ah yes! I'm guessing based on this thread no one would fine it objectionable since it the original is a vintage ring...I personally think the instagram call out post is kind of tacky but not sure if cvb is justifiably upset or not. Would like to see photos of that DK version from more angles.

Correct, there is no issue whatsoever in copying antique pieces. The issue is if a designer is currently creating original pieces, the person who wants one like it really should ask that person to make it rather than asking another vendor to make an exact copy.

bludiva, you can see a video on DK's instagram of the whole ring. He has copied her work multiple times. I would not be happy if it were me. I think when she has asked him before to please not copy her original designs, he should respect that and stop doing so. I totally can understand why she'd post.

 

[yennyfire]

I wouldn't say it's ok.
I myself wouldn't take a BG design to a jeweler and have it recreated. Some elements- sure.
I always ask the owner of rings for permission of possibly using their unique elements tho. They've always been gracious.
I've never been asked about my octagon. However- been told on here multiple times, as an after thought, that my ring image has been given to designers as inspiration for theirs. I posted it here. It's out there. It's ok.

@Rfisher I’m one of those who sent photos of your ring (along with several others, including my SS 3 stone octagonal ring, based largely on T-Gal’s ring, with her gracious blessing and Rika’s gorgeous hexagonal SS masterpiece) to CvB when I was looking to create a setting for my OEC. My apologies for not asking for your blessing before sending the photo to CvB. I should have reached out to you and did not. I think in some cases, you know where the photos came from and could get someone’s blessing, in other cases, not so easy, as when it’s a random photo from Pinterest or the like.

Edited to add, as @diamondseeker2006 pointed out, there are tons of octagonal halos out there, so no contemporary designer can claim that their design is unique either. I loved CvBs Kalynne shape (an octagonal diamond halo) but didn’t want diamonds so started researching other options. Engraving was the obvious choice and Caysie and I went back/forth about embossed vs. engraved, so blatantly copying your ring certainly wasn’t at the forefront of my mind when making a final decision.

 

[Rfisher]

I am 100% certain that Caysie doesn't get inspiration from TGP, although it is certainly possible someone used your ring as inspiration to show her elements they like. Caysie had made an engraved octagonal halo for Yennyfire, as well. Art deco octagonal halos are not new and original, neither is putting onyx and platinum. The shank is different, the center stone bezel is totally different. I can't see the galleries, but they likely are different. Victor Canera also as a similar ring but he did a pave outer halo. In fact, I know Caysie first did one octagonal ring with pave outer halo because I saw the picture of it, but the next person wanted an engraved halo with the onyx.

Here are some antique rings:





(1925)


Just so you know, I love your ring. I love the octagonal art deco designs and my last piece was an octagonal deco pendant, but it was an original design, not based on an existing (antique) pendant. I did request the same engraving that was on her octagonal onyx ring and had even considered making a ring like that. I honestly didn't see it as a copy of yours since there are so many antique octagonal onyx rings out there. I am really sorry you feel that way, though.

Thank you for your kind words about my ring.

But you miss my point. I already stated the ring I posted is not an exact copy of mine. I see the differences. I know mine isn't unique. The elements are all out there for a long time. The rings owner did indeed state here she gave TGP's website image of my ring to CVB.
Yes, Yennyfires engraved halo is very beautiful. She was kind in telling me that she had used my ring as one of her Inspos she sent to caysie. And that's fine. That's not what this is about.

 

[soxfan]

I'm going to read through the rest of the responses, but for those of you suggesting that CVB copied Victor Barbone, all you have to do is google. It's not hard. :roll That ring was an antique, it was not created by VB. Unless he is lying in this post:

https://www.victorbarbone.com/products/lucy-antique-pear-cut-diamond-ring


Thank you @the_mother_thing !!!

Per @soxfan ‘s thread, the original ring was an antique sold by VB: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/antique-pear-setting-advice.243454/

For those who haven’t read the previous thread topics on copying designs, here ya go (I even started one a couple years ago and forgot):

https://www.pricescope.com/communit...inspired-by-piece-vs-stealing-designs.225184/

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/ok-to-copy-design.227067/

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/inspired-by-vs-copy-in-custom-projects.229262/

https://www.pricescope.com/communit...set-if-a-pser-copied-your-ring-design.146937/

 

[soxfan]

I cannot claim that mine is an original design that's never been done. I won't claim that the elements are unique and original. However I can claim that they were put together by myself and TGP, and was used very strongly as CVB/ring owner's inspiration and presented as CVB's unique /bespoke creation.


However - I can claim that CVB is not practicing what she preaches. I'm not saying DK isn't guilty of not crediting any other designer as inspiration, or doing due diligence of researching the images he receives as inspirations or directions. But neither does CVB. Unless TGP wants to come on here and offer the information that she indeed was approached or credited and I'm ignorant to that fact? Then I'll eat crow. I like crow pastry.

These two rings look nothing alike to me. Sorry.

 

[Rfisher]

@Rfisher I’m one of those who sent photos of your ring (along with several others, including my SS 3 stone octagonal ring, based largely on T-Gal’s ring, with her gracious blessing and Rika’s gorgeous hexagonal SS masterpiece) to CvB when I was looking to create a setting for my OEC. My apologies for not asking for your blessing before sending the photo to CvB. I should have reached out to you and did not. I think in some cases, you know where the photos came from and could get someone’s blessing, in other cases, not so easy, as when it’s a random photo from Pinterest or the like.

Edited to add, as @diamondseeker2006 pointed out, there are tons of octagonal halos out there, so no contemporary designer can claim that their design is unique either. I loved CvBs Kaylene shape (an octagonal diamond halo) but didn’t want diamonds so started researching other options. Engraving was the obvious choice and Caysie and I went back/forth about embossed vs. engraved, so blatantly copying your ring certainly wasn’t at the forefront of my mind when making a final decision.

Once again, that's not what this is about. I never claimed yours was a copy of mine. I never claimed an octagon like mine was original, nor was the onyx, nor the engraving.
You didn't need to ask me. I knew the engraving wasn't original. I just stated that it's been done, and it's ok. It's posted here and on TGPs site. It's ok.
My point is that - as I posted earlier a snippet - of the owner of the ring in question that she indeed did give a picture off of TGPs site to have caysie strongly utilize and claim as her unique design.
I don't feel it's any different than what she's mad at DK for.
No need for anyone to feel sorry for how I feel.

 

[mrs-b]

I'm not buying into this eternal and nasty situation. All parties involved are big enough to speak for themselves, and this dispute - and others like it - has been going on for years. I've seen all the jewelers mentioned here (and DOZENS of others) copy other designers, so there's NO claiming innocence, and I remember seeing that obvious and virtually exact Erika Winters copy on CvB's website and thinking, "Well, that does it for me. Everyone is copying everyone. Done deal." For what it's worth - I've seen aspects of my own designs copied also. My designs are personal and exact to the tenth of a mm, and I know when someone is knocking off an aspect or two. And DKJ often calls me to say "Someone has asked to copy your design; is this ok with you?" And I ALWAYS say - go for it; there's no greater compliment. Granted, this is in no way my career. But it's still someone using my creative thoughts for themselves. (Just to be clear - I'm fine with that.)

One thing I CAN comment on with authority, tho, is that CvB has never called DKJ to discuss the matter. As a psychologist who specialized in dispute resolution, I can tell you for nothing, if you have a beef, go first to the source; getting your flunkies to tear apart people on Instagram is never going to get you anywhere.

So many people in the jewelry world seem to squabble. I think it's a small and competitive industry filled with creative sensibilities. I'm a consumer. I'm going to go to whoever gives me the best product for the best price. If something is patented, or has a copyright - different situation. But if it doesn't, artistic imitation is as old as history.

 

[yennyfire]

My point is that - as I posted earlier a snippet - of the owner of the ring in question that she indeed did give a picture off of TGPs site to have caysie strongly utilize and claim as her unique design.
I don't feel it's any different than what she's mad at DK for.

You definitely make a reasonable point here...I do think that in their own minds (designers in general), they feel like they are making enough changes that the design can honestly be called their own. I truly don’t think either of them set out to copy. It’s a slippery slope for sure!

 

[soxfan]

Erika Winters:


Cvb:


SingleStone:

Cvb:

What is the copying here? OMG these rings are SOOOO different. EW has two rows of milgrain. The singlestone ring (I think that has to be an antique, the milgrain is all worn off and it looks terrible) is not even close to her band. My old NH jeweler used to do that same band. CVB's has cuffs, the singlestone doesn't. Seriously?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Thank you for your kind words about my ring.

But you miss my point. I already stated the ring I posted is not an exact copy of mine. I see the differences. I know mine isn't unique. The elements are all out there for a long time. The rings owner did indeed state here she gave TGP's website image of my ring to CVB.
Yes, Yennyfires engraved halo is very beautiful. She was kind in telling me that she had used my ring as one of her Inspos she sent to caysie. And that's fine. That's not what this is about.

I don't see that we have a problem then. Yes, there are elements out there that are common and used by many vendors. People see an element they like and ask for it to be a part of a new custom design with various differences. There's not a problem with that. I would imagine most custom projects begin with photos and drawings to give the ring designer ideas of what we like.

Caysie doesn't need to copy because she is an artist and gifted designer. Yes, she will make a ring with elements people ask for as long as it is not a copy of another contemporary designers ring, but she prefers to create original designs. The reason for her post was that she had made an original design, and another vendor basically copied it exactly, and it has been done several times before by that vendor. I see it no different than an artist copying an original work of another artist and then selling it with their signature.

(PS. I asked for the same engraving design on my pendant that was on Yenny's ring! I hope you take that as compliment. I am guessing she must use the same engraver as that is his design.)

 

[Rfisher]

You definitely make a reasonable point here...I do think that in their own minds (designers in general), they feel like they are making enough changes that the design can honestly be called their own. I truly don’t think either of them set out to copy. It’s a slippery slope for sure!

Thank you but I will take it a step further. I won't say a jeweler/cadperson sometimes isn't aware they are copying. Because of course the sometimes they do. But to say that DK should be acknowledging CVB in the design of the ring he just produced, CVB should have done it as well to TGP. Is it a copy? No- but even though they don't look exactly alike, cause I have eyes too and can see hers is much more refined and it should be for the cost disparity between her centerstone and my $800 one - with the info the rings owner posted on here - it's a valid design takeaway. That's why I jumped into this cesspool.

 

[mrs-b]

Is there any chance we could ask the mods to move this rather depressing thread to Hangout? It's not really a Show Me The Bling sort of thread.

 

[GlitterInMyHair]

Per @soxfan ‘s thread, the original ring was an antique sold by VB: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/antique-pear-setting-advice.243454/

For those who haven’t read the previous thread topics on copying designs, here ya go (I even started one a couple years ago and forgot):

https://www.pricescope.com/communit...inspired-by-piece-vs-stealing-designs.225184/

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/ok-to-copy-design.227067/

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/inspired-by-vs-copy-in-custom-projects.229262/

https://www.pricescope.com/communit...set-if-a-pser-copied-your-ring-design.146937/

I had no idea this topic was discussed extensively in the past. I bookmarked all the threads. Thank you for posting them.

 

[Gussie]

If jewelry designers consider their work to be art then copying is unavoidable once it is in the public domain. I can copy any painting I want; I just can't present it as the original artist's work. Forgery is wrong; reproduction is fine. I am sure that there are many b&m jewelers that have copied various designs as well; we just don't hear about it. Social media has really propelled it, and I think it's to be expected. I read all I could find about jewelry copyright and it doesn't seem like there is a lot of protection. And it would cost a lot more than it would be worth to tackle legally. If it were easy, Tiffany would have gone after everyone for the classic 6 prong.

 

[the_mother_thing]

One thing I CAN comment on with authority, tho, is that CvB has never called DKJ to discuss the matter. As a psychologist who specialized in dispute resolution, I can tell you for nothing, if you have a beef, go first to the source; getting your flunkies to tear apart people on Instagram is never going to get you anywhere.

Not to argue, but I seem to recall with a degree of certainty that when CvB & LAD were partners, one/both of them did contact DK about this directly because Erica (I believe) noted several designs she/Caysie collaborated on that DK replicated almost to the Nth degree.

And I’m not taking sides here or playing favorites; I’ve worked with both CvB and DK on pieces, including custom. Just trying to keep things transparent in a very murky pond.

 

[D&T]

@mrs-b Very eloquently said. Not everyone needs or wants hand forge. Not everyone can afford CvB or want to spend that much. Not everyone wants to wait 5 months for their projects to be complete. Some designer or jeweler I love working with more than others :roll. There are probably tons of copies out there which have not been posted on instagram or on their site and no one hears or seen a peep. Perhaps we all keep silent of exact copies?

 

[mrs-b]

Not to argue, but I seem to recall with a degree of certainty that when CvB & LAD were partners, one/both of them did contact DK about this directly because Erica (I believe) noted several designs she/Caysie collaborated on that DK replicated almost to the Nth degree.

And I’m not taking sides here or playing favorites; I’ve worked with both CvB and DK on pieces, including custom. Just trying to keep things transparent in a very murky pond.

It doesn't really keep things transparent, because there has been a LOT of water under the bridge with LAD and DKJ since then. And that's the problem with threads like this; there's ALWAYS more than what meets the eye, and those who know, can't or won't talk. Nor should they.

And that's my last post on this thread.

 

[soxfan]

Not to argue, but I seem to recall with a degree of certainty that when CvB & LAD were partners, one/both of them did contact DK about this directly because Erica (I believe) noted several designs she/Caysie collaborated on that DK replicated almost to the Nth degree.

And I’m not taking sides here or playing favorites; I’ve worked with both CvB and DK on pieces, including custom. Just trying to keep things transparent in a very murky pond.

You are right. They did call him out. He copied the designs exactly. They weren’t well executed, but they were exact replicas.

 

[Rfisher]

Never mind. Didn't contribute to the thread any.

 

[the_mother_thing]

It doesn't really keep things transparent, because there has been a LOT of water under the bridge with LAD and DKJ since then. And that's the problem with threads like this; there's ALWAYS more than what meets the eye, and those who know, can't or won't talk. Nor should they.

And that's my last post on this thread.

Agreed - at the end of the day/this thread, there are three sides: his, hers & the truth. No thread (like this) on PS ever seems to produce ALL the facts/truth.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I'm not buying into this eternal and nasty situation. All parties involved are big enough to speak for themselves, and this dispute - and others like it - has been going on for years. I've seen all the jewelers mentioned here (and DOZENS of others) copy other designers, so there's NO claiming innocence, and I remember seeing that obvious and virtually exact Erika Winters copy on CvB's website and thinking, "Well, that does it for me. Everyone is copying everyone. Done deal." For what it's worth - I've seen aspects of my own designs copied also. My designs are personal and exact to the tenth of a mm, and I know when someone is knocking off an aspect or two. And DKJ often calls me to say "Someone has asked to copy your design; is this ok with you?" And I ALWAYS say - go for it; there's no greater compliment. Granted, this is in no way my career. But it's still someone using my creative thoughts for themselves. (Just to be clear - I'm fine with that.)

One thing I CAN comment on with authority, tho, is that CvB has never called DKJ to discuss the matter. As a psychologist who specialized in dispute resolution, I can tell you for nothing, if you have a beef, go first to the source; getting your flunkies to tear apart people on Instagram is never going to get you anywhere.

So many people in the jewelry world seem to squabble. I think it's a small and competitive industry filled with creative sensibilities. I'm a consumer. I'm going to go to whoever gives me the best product for the best price. If something is patented, or has a copyright - different situation. But if it doesn't, artistic imitation is as old as history.

You and I are friends, and I only want all of us to be giving accurate information so I need to comment on that highlighted section. When we have seen DK copy Caysie's work before, she has emailed him and expressed her feelings on her original designs being copied. She told me at the time, so I know for a fact that she did indeed email him on multiple occasions. He ignored the emails, but she has them saved. It's one thing to miss one email, but I doubt he missed three. I think after contacting someone multiple times with no response, I don't blame her for posting about it. She did the right thing and contacted him directly first.

(Just seeing that someone else addressed this, also. I had already written my post.)

 

[bludiva]

So putting aside bad blood/issues between these 2 designers, sounds like:

Repro of vintage/antique design = ok
Repro of new design with some changes = ok
Repro of new design without substantive changes = not ok if it is an indie brand with iconic elements but ok if it is a large scale brand and/or design elements are relatively generic.

Where would that leave something like a copy of the ring concierge ER which is an antique but she started selling copies of it herself? Is that considered her design now?

I didn't think anything of it when I went to my jeweler with a bunch of photos and a drawing I made which was basically a cvb head on an mc2 body and asked them to turn it into a ring. Should they be upset at me? If someone were to copy it, should I be upset or the jeweler be upset?

And we're talking about what's good etiquette really, being a thoughtful/ethical customer or designer, because I agree with ceg I see lots of designers big and small copy each other without substantive changes all the time. Maybe people coming to these boards with designs on their minds will find it helpful to hear this hashed out.

I'm having deja vu b/c I probably had the same questions/confusion last time this came up.

 

[mrs-b]

@diamondseeker2006 - I'm aware of the emails, and also the tone of them. Not what I'm talking about tho.

She's never called and tried a personal approach.

Seriously, I am not buying into this. To speak in the language both you and I understand:

"Like one who grabs a stray dog by the ears is someone who rushes into a quarrel not his own." Proverbs 26:17 (NIV)

I'm not much into stray dog ear-grabbing. And you're my friend. End of story.

 

[Rfisher]

So putting aside bad blood/issues between these 2 designers, sounds like:

Repro of vintage/antique design = ok
Repro of new design with some changes = ok
Repro of new design without substantive changes = not ok if it is an indie brand with iconic elements but ok if it is a large scale brand and/or design elements are relatively generic.

Where would that leave something like a copy of the ring concierge ER which is an antique but she started selling copies of it herself? Is that considered her design now?

I didn't think anything of it when I went to my jeweler with a bunch of photos and a drawing I made which was basically a cvb head on an mc2 body and asked them to turn it into a ring. Should they be upset at me? If someone were to copy it, should I be upset or the jeweler be upset?

And we're talking about what's good etiquette really, being a thoughtful/ethical customer or designer, because I agree with ceg I see lots of designers big and small copy each other without substantive changes all the time. Maybe people coming to these boards with designs on their minds will find it helpful to hear this hashed out.

I'm having deja vu b/c I probably had the same questions/confusion last time this came up.

If I were to have my ring made today, exactly as it is now,
I would be flamed for 'copying a CVB design' and I'm sure it would be stated as others have before that it's ultimately failing horribly at its execution.

There is no hard rules, because that requires a two way road. There is none in this instance.

 

[HS4S_2]

Yes, the original was an antique. It was listed in VB shop but was not designed by him. I am not aware that the original designer is known. I will not get into right or wrong of the copy in the current IG post because it seems to snowball.

QUOTE="the_mother_thing, post: 4526900, member: 68324"]I remember that PSers ring/thread, and @HS4S_2 had the trillion version made. I am 95% certain the ‘original’ was an antique.[/QUOTE]

 

[bludiva]

If I were to have my ring made today, exactly as it is now,
I would be flamed for 'copying a CVB design' and I'm sure it would be stated as others have before that it's ultimately failing horribly at its execution.

There is no hard rules, because that requires a two way road. There is none in this instance.

Yeah, maybe it's a subject best left to another thread or past threads as there seems to be a whole emotional / cult of personality thing around cvb designs that I am not in the know on. I think the bigger question is what's interesting and useful for most PSers.