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Wow, CvB just called out DK for copying one of her designs.

diamondseeker2006

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So putting aside bad blood/issues between these 2 designers, sounds like:

Repro of vintage/antique design = ok
Repro of new design with some changes = ok
Repro of new design without substantive changes = not ok if it is an indie brand with iconic elements but ok if it is a large scale brand and/or design elements are relatively generic.

Where would that leave something like a copy of the ring concierge ER which is an antique but she started selling copies of it herself? Is that considered her design now?

I didn't think anything of it when I went to my jeweler with a bunch of photos and a drawing I made which was basically a cvb head on an mc2 body and asked them to turn it into a ring. Should they be upset at me? If someone were to copy it, should I be upset or the jeweler be upset?

And we're talking about what's good etiquette really, being a thoughtful/ethical customer or designer, because I agree with ceg I see lots of designers big and small copy each other without substantive changes all the time. Maybe people coming to these boards with designs on their minds will find it helpful to hear this hashed out.

I'm having deja vu b/c I probably had the same questions/confusion last time this came up.

I agree that I would like to bow out on the specfic vendor conflict at this point!

I think these are good questions and yes, I think it can be confusing. We've talked about these things before, but I really think some of it boils down to opinion.

I've seen several rings using the petal shank of MC2. I have no idea if they were the very first people ever to do a shank like that or not. If the head was totally different than any of theirs, then maybe one could justify that the ring was 50% different? I am not sure where to draw that line. If someone were to copy a piece where I used recognizable elements from others, I would feel no right to be upset if others did the same. If someone goes to another vendor and copies one of my original pieces that a designer made for me, yes, I'd be upset. If they go to my designer and ask him/her to make it, the designs technically belong to them, so I would not be upset. At least I'd know my design was being made in the same quality as the original piece.

That ring concierge ring simply cannot be considered an original design. Anyone can copy it because it is an antique design. However, wise people will make it a little stronger and more durable as hers is far too delicate to last long term.
 

mrs-b

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@Rfisher - if you ever sell your emerald heart, I still want to buy it. Serious offer here. I mean...it's an *emerald*! And it's a HEART! Who wouldn't want that??! Not me, baby!

Mrs-B <-- first in line.
 

D&T

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That ring concierge ring simply cannot be considered an original design. Anyone can copy it because it is an antique design. However, wise people will make it a little stronger and more durable as hers is far too delicate to last long term.

Sorry I’ve been away for a few years... what’s a ring concierge?
 

Gussie

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I have read all these threads since joining ps and couldn't really form my own opinion until now. If I have someone make an exact replica of a designer's work, I still have exactly that, a copy. And that is fine. Copies of art are fine. I could have anyone replicate a Cartier piece but I wouldn't have a Cartier in the end. I wouldn't pay for a Cartier in the beginning so they are not losing any business. To me the smaller vendors have to accept this as part of it, especially in the social media era. The "free" exposure IG provides comes with a price.
 

bludiva

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I agree that I would like to bow out on the specfic vendor conflict at this point!

I think these are good questions and yes, I think it can be confusing. We've talked about these things before, but I really think some of it boils down to opinion.

I've seen several rings using the petal shank of MC2. I have no idea if they were the very first people ever to do a shank like that or not. If the head was totally different than any of theirs, then maybe one could justify that the ring was 50% different? I am not sure where to draw that line. If someone were to copy a piece where I used recognizable elements from others, I would feel no right to be upset if others did the same. If someone goes to another vendor and copies one of my original pieces that a designer made for me, yes, I'd be upset. If they go to my designer and ask him/her to make it, the designs technically belong to them, so I would not be upset. At least I'd know my design was being made in the same quality as the original piece.

That ring concierge ring simply cannot be considered an original design. Anyone can copy it because it is an antique design. However, wise people will make it a little stronger and more durable as hers is far too delicate to last long term.

I don't think I'd have much right to be upset if someone liked my idea and had another jeweler execute it....and it probably would end up slightly different even if they started with a photo of my finished product. And I'd feel ok with making another "frankenring" in the future.

It's that grey area of opinion and where to draw the line that makes this such a fiesty topic I suppose.

D&T there is a lady who started a jewelry business after she got her engagement ring. It is an antique but she uses the design as her signature product

https://ringconcierge.com/products/old-mine-cut-antique-engagement-ring
 

lilmosun

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Insipration vs Imitation. Interesting article, while it is about fashion, I think a lot of it applies to jewelry (actually there is mention that jewelry designs seem to be better protected IF one goes through the expense of copyrighting).

http://www.thefashionlaw.com/home/why-is-copying-so-rampant-in-fashion

I can understand Caysie, or any jewelry designer, not being happy with straight out knock-offs. On the flip side, From what I have read, DK is not a designer per se and it isn't clear to me that his advertising is more to show his work than any claims to designs. He wouldn't be making replicas unless it was requested to begin with. I don't know that there is a right answer. We all have different priorities/values that decide where we do business. For example, I will purchase something at an independent shop even when I can get it cheaper on-line if I like the service, etc. Others will just by on-line. But if I see something I love and can't afford and find it elsewhere cheaper, my moral compass is probably not that strong :whistle:
 

D&T

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@bludiva thank you for that info. I’ve not heard of her until today.
 

nala

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I'm not buying into this eternal and nasty situation. All parties involved are big enough to speak for themselves, and this dispute - and others like it - has been going on for years. I've seen all the jewelers mentioned here (and DOZENS of others) copy other designers, so there's NO claiming innocence, and I remember seeing that obvious and virtually exact Erika Winters copy on CvB's website and thinking, "Well, that does it for me. Everyone is copying everyone. Done deal." For what it's worth - I've seen aspects of my own designs copied also. My designs are personal and exact to the tenth of a mm, and I know when someone is knocking off an aspect or two. And DKJ often calls me to say "Someone has asked to copy your design; is this ok with you?" And I ALWAYS say - go for it; there's no greater compliment. Granted, this is in no way my career. But it's still someone using my creative thoughts for themselves. (Just to be clear - I'm fine with that.)

One thing I CAN comment on with authority, tho, is that CvB has never called DKJ to discuss the matter. As a psychologist who specialized in dispute resolution, I can tell you for nothing, if you have a beef, go first to the source; getting your flunkies to tear apart people on Instagram is never going to get you anywhere.

So many people in the jewelry world seem to squabble. I think it's a small and competitive industry filled with creative sensibilities. I'm a consumer. I'm going to go to whoever gives me the best product for the best price. If something is patented, or has a copyright - different situation. But if it doesn't, artistic imitation is as old as history.
Bravo. Very well said!
 

Crystal_Dreams

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I love the work of both CVB and DK...

Honestly, I can appreciate how flat out copying a design with no changes would incence the person who created the design. But with so MANY pieces out there, it’s hard to claim something as ‘totally original’. As long as there are elements in there which try to change up said design to make it unique and different, I’m not against it. A direct flat out replica I’m not for, though I can see why some people may turn to DK for that. I suppose if it was ‘my’ design and my business depended upon my unique pieces, I might be angry too. I can relate to that.

God knows the inspiration for MY pieces had to come from somewhere though! They are NOT direct replicas however- each of them (made by both CVB and DK), were altered and tweaked to include design elements which would make them perfect for me. None of them are carbon copies of another piece. Not a fan of the ‘make an exact replica of an inspiration piece’ approach... but it hasn’t been a major issue for me anyway as I always seem to want to tweak the design a bit! Take my earrings which were inspired by snotty-pie’s gorgeous studs for example! They are definitely ‘inspired by’- but the overall shape is different as per my specifications... along with the cut outs, the tapering of prongs, the angle of the prongs etc...
 
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FlashyFlamingo

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Rfisher

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I’ve sounded like a hot toddler on here last night and I’m sorry.
Even tho the ring owner in my case did indeed post on here that she wanted TGPs design off her website, I don’t positively know that she actually did give CVB that image to go off of. She could indeed have given CVB all the antique images separately and directed them together in the same similar fashion without CVB knowing. No way of me knowing, and I jumped to conclusions. So I’m sorry for that as well.
IMO the DK posting of the Lang original instead of the removed one shows not much. The owner of the new DK ring could have given him those individual antique design elements instead and pulled them all together over multiple cads. Many. Many. Many cads.
Unlikely, in this case. But not impossible.
But DK posting the original antique as the excuse (I assume?) is not relevant when reproducing many if not all the tweaks together of someone else’s. It is different than reproducing/copying an antique that’s no longer in production by that same bench.
Because I think that’s what this is all about. Not the thinking that someone can’t have a similar looking ring. Or a copy. Because that’s silly.
It’s the intent. And that’s hard to quantify outside of the vendor and customer themselves, by us as outsiders looking in.
 

missy

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Most ideas come from something original. But not all ideas are original.

It seems all of the people we are discussing in this thread do some sort of copying but the question is to what degree. Using another's piece as inspiration is fine but using another's piece and copying it exactly IMO does not feel right to me.

I have never worked with either of these artists but I respect them both and think they are creative geniuses in their own right. I will not comment on the right or wrong of this issue but will say it's disappointing and wish they could resolve their differences as professionals and come to a mutual agreement. FWIW I wonder if just a phone call between these 2 artists might benefit them both vs contacting each other via emails, IG etc.
 

the_mother_thing

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I wonder what the point of DK posting that emerald ring was. The ring he made doesn’t mirror that one, and neither does the one CvB made. Similarities, yes ... but not enough where I would think either CvB or DK ‘copied’ it.

The Lang ring has collet-like settings, the shank/shoulders are different, the prongs are different, and the stones are all closed vs open. That ring could have served as inspiration, at best, for either of them.

The DK ring CvB posted (that DK made) does, however, appear to mirror CvB’s piece. The only difference I was able to detect were the gallery ‘cutouts’ not tapering the way CvB’s ring showed.
 

yssie

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Everyone knows my general feelings on this subject, so I won’t rehash them here - it’s too early in the morning.

I don’t think it’s all that unclear from a practical perspective - the legalities are monstrous, I’m sure. In terms of consumer responsibility:
1. If you’re having a vendor clone an antique, or a piece from a retired vendor, go to town with whomever you please! Zero moral ambiguity here.
2. If you’re having a vendor clone a recognizable design from another currently-active vendor (with the express purpose of having your piece look exactly the same), realize that many people - including the original designer - will likely think poorly of your decision. Acknowledge that you’re taking money out of the original designer’s pocket, directly (design costs time and money), and indirectly (you’re choosing to contribute to diluting another vendor’s brand).
3. If a vendor behaves in a way you personally disagree with, say so with your wallet! Don’t patronize vendors whose practices you disagree with, and don’t recommend vendors whose practices you disagree with.

It doesn’t matter who the vendors are in this scenario - small or big.

To me the smaller vendors have to accept this as part of it, especially in the social media era. The "free" exposure IG provides comes with a price.
I have to say that I completely agree with this. That “free” exposure comes with the likelihood of having anything you create that becomes popular being copied by others. I do think “inevitable” doesn’t have to be synonymous with “okay”, though... If enough people choose to not support something, that something - whatever it is - will end. I’m an optimist!!
 
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yssie

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If I were to have my ring made today, exactly as it is now,
I would be flamed for 'copying a CVB design' and I'm sure it would be stated as others have before that it's ultimately failing horribly at its execution.

There is no hard rules, because that requires a two way road. There is none in this instance.

I very much hope this would not be the case. I certainly would not feel this way: Your threestone (is that the one you’re referring to?) is a classic design - classic components combined into classic, time-tested aesthetic. No contemporary vendor could possibly claim ownership of the design of your ring.
 

Rfisher

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I cannot claim that mine is an original design that's never been done. I won't claim that the elements are unique and original. However I can claim that they were put together by myself and TGP, and was used very strongly as CVB/ring owner's inspiration and presented as CVB's unique /bespoke creation.
IMG_0972.jpg You_Doodle_2019-04-07T23_53_34Z.jpg You_Doodle_2019-04-07T23_54_40Z.jpg

However - I can claim that CVB is not practicing what she preaches. I'm not saying DK isn't guilty of not crediting any other designer as inspiration, or doing due diligence of researching the images he receives as inspirations or directions. But neither does CVB. Unless TGP wants to come on here and offer the information that she indeed was approached or credited and I'm ignorant to that fact? Then I'll eat crow. I like crow pastry.

I very much hope this would not be the case. I certainly would not feel this way: Your threestone (is that the one you’re referring to?) is a classic design - classic components combined into classic, time-tested aesthetic. No contemporary vendor could possibly claim ownership of the design of your ring.
 

yssie

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Apologies. I skimmed the thread and made an assumption about your reference.

I stand by hoping that no one would claim you’d copied another contemporary vendor’s design :))
 

Rfisher

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I very much hope this would not be the case. I certainly would not feel this way: Your threestone (is that the one you’re referring to?) is a classic design - classic components combined into classic, time-tested aesthetic. No contemporary vendor could possibly claim ownership of the design of your ring.

Cvb’s Maria is no doubt a beautiful copy of an antique. I strongly considered it , but couldn’t justify spending almost exactly 2x the amount for this setting direct from her. Any of her other unique designs - definitely I would.
 

luv2sparkle

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This is a tale as old as time. It is done in every part of the industry. I understand how she would feel about it, but it is going to happen. Some of her designs, especially when she didn't have such a large following were very close to Singlestones. In my opinion, in is pointless to get too worked up about it. If someone wants to pay her price they will get a beautifully crafted ring. If someone wants the same style as hers but at a lesser price point, it won't have the same touches and quality. It just won't. That has to be her upside. As mad as it makes her, it won't change. Everyone gets copied in this industry. How many people want a Tiffany solitaire?
 

Batgirl76

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Let’s be honest, let’s be real here. As much as I love looking at jewelry/diamonds/gemstones, it is an industry RIFE with unethical practices. Copying someone else’s designs is the LEAST worrisome issue.
 

Octo2005

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I cannot claim that mine is an original design that's never been done. I won't claim that the elements are unique and original. However I can claim that they were put together by myself and TGP, and was used very strongly as CVB/ring owner's inspiration and presented as CVB's unique /bespoke creation.
IMG_0972.jpg You_Doodle_2019-04-07T23_53_34Z.jpg You_Doodle_2019-04-07T23_54_40Z.jpg

However - I can claim that CVB is not practicing what she preaches. I'm not saying DK isn't guilty of not crediting any other designer as inspiration, or doing due diligence of researching the images he receives as inspirations or directions. But neither does CVB. Unless TGP wants to come on here and offer the information that she indeed was approached or credited and I'm ignorant to that fact? Then I'll eat crow. I like crow pastry.
Your ring is beautiful!

I can certainly see the inspiration and some elements are copied, but I would not say that this is an exact copy of your ring. I think that it is very hard to know where to draw that line, if one where to look hard enough, I am sure that one could find many similar settings - at what point does it become a copy? How many elements need to be the same and how many different?
 

Rfisher

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Your ring is beautiful!

I can certainly see the inspiration and some elements are copied, but I would not say that this is an exact copy of your ring. I think that it is very hard to know where to draw that line, if one where to look hard enough, I am sure that one could find many similar settings - at what point does it become a copy? How many elements need to be the same and how many different?

Thank you for your kind words about my ring.

I’ll repeat my original statement /intent because it looks like it’s it’s gotten lost somehow.
I don’t think hers is a copy of mine.
Mine is not unique.
What I am pointing out is that the owner of the CVB ring stated on here that she wanted to set her stone like a TGP design (mine) posted on her site. If the owner of the CVB ring took that image to CVB and went from there - then TGP should be credited for inspiration by CVB, just as CVB is requesting DK to give her some credit.
It should go both ways.
That is all.

Edited because manners
 

the_mother_thing

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@Rfisher Is it your thought that every ring designer/creator should post something when sharing creations that originated from multiple ‘inspirations’ ... all of those inspiration pieces? Like “here is the ‘XYZ’ ring, which was inspired by a, b, and c pieces”?

I think that is a bit much, personally, especially because the new creator may not know who created every piece, etc.
 

Octo2005

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Thank you for your kind words about my ring.

I’ll repeat my original statement /intent because it looks like it’s it’s gotten lost somehow.
I don’t think hers is a copy of mine.
Mine is not unique.
What I am pointing out is that the owner of the CVB ring stated on here that she wanted to set her stone like a TGP design (mine) posted on her site. If the owner of the CVB ring took that image to CVB and went from there - then TGP should be credited for inspiration by CVB, just as CVB is requesting DK to give her some credit.
It should go both ways.
That is all.

Edited because manners
=)2
My apologies, I commented before reading through the entire thread
 

Rfisher

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@Rfisher Is it your thought that every ring designer/creator should post something when sharing creations that originated from multiple ‘inspirations’ ... all of those inspiration pieces? Like “here is the ‘XYZ’ ring, which was inspired by a, b, and c pieces”?

I think that is a bit much, personally, especially because the new creator may not know who created every piece, etc.

Lost in the weeds indeed.
I never stated that every single jeweler every single time every single inspiration should be noted.
There's been plenty of posters who state they are using CVB elements, that happen to be antique elements CVB has gathered, and those posters are repeatedly suggested to not use CVB pictures but to find the original antique rings with those same elements to use as inspiration.
Again- it was implied by the poster of the new ring, that I used as an example, that a picture off of TGP's site was used for her inspiration to.
And again if this is the case - it should go both ways. Not just one way.

And this can't be confined to 'contemporary' designs. Because again it's often mentioned on here for posters to not use antique inspired design elements from CVB pictures.

My contribution on this thread has been that it should go both ways. Not just one.
 

lissyflo

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I think the issue is that the DK ring appeared, on the limited details I could see, to be virtually identical to Caysie’s, which is quite different to being inspired by some elements and then combining them with other ideas to form a unique whole.

Where the line is drawn that separates inspiration from copying is highly subjective but, for me anyway, that example is pretty close to one end of the spectrum!

ETA: I think this could possibly be an unintentional result of the way DK works. Excluding this kind of issue, I can’t remember reading a bad word said on here about him or his work, other than that he’s difficult to get hold of (which is a factor of his popularity). What you do hear said is that, as a client, you need to have vision (to request CAD adjustments) or to provide exact pictures of what you want effected. With the sheer volume of work DK carries out (and therefore, presumably, a blurring of thousands of pictures that he’s sent) I can see the latter approach unintentionally causing exactly this problem.

ETA (again!): which is why I for one am more than happy to pay a premium for Caysie’s refined vision, as I have none of my own!
 
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