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Wow, CvB just called out DK for copying one of her designs.

mrs-b

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I very much agree with you. I wish we could discuss this topic without the loyalty/emotion attached to any particular vendor and simply on the merits of what is generally accepted as ‘right’ vs. ‘wrong’. Given this IS a jewelry forum, and people do come here for input, ideas, inspiration, suggestions, etc., it’d be great if there was a less acrimonious thread we could point to and say “here is where the suggested boundaries lie with regard to inspired-by pieces”.

If this is truly what you want, rather than the gossip, drama and pontificating these threads generate, it's not at all difficult. Start a thread with no names, but discussing the principles and issues. Nobody is saying you can't discuss this. My issue is that these threads almost always amount to internet bullying. Pillorying people who have no avenue of response is abhorrent.

And as for all suggestions of suing - there is no illegality here. This is an ethical issue at best, an issue of personal opinion at least.
 

the_mother_thing

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If this is truly what you want, rather than the gossip, drama and pontificating these threads generate, it's not at all difficult. Start a thread with no names, but discussing the principles and issues.

I did, two years ago. And I linked to it earlier in this thread.
 

yssie

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Never mind.
Bowing out of this thread.

Agree with previous posters - let's all remember that whilst this is armchair psychology for many of us, for the vendors in question, for all vendors who have had to resolve this sort of issue - this is their livelihoods.

As consumers - our choices matter. Our perspectives and judgments and ethical sensibilities matter. What we feel, and what we do about what we feel, can - does - make a very real difference.

Our responsibility as educated consumers is to always consider and acknowledge the effects of our choices.
 
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arkieb1

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I used to be really against what DK does because he exactly copied my 8 prong solitaire made by Victor Canera, I emailed David and to his credit he said he wouldn't make another so the fact people are saying he ignores emails I have not found to be true.

I boycotted DK for a number of years because of this, but these days, I like David and I'm far more cynical - David himself isn't copying anything. The man, his staff get asked daily to make rings inspired by jewellery that people see on here, on IG, on FB and everywhere else. Yes, they make similar rings. They are filling a demand, the person that copied my VC ring had a moissanite not a diamond centre stone.

David makes nice rings at great prices. People approach him for copies of things inspired by what they have seen, because he does a decent job for an affordable price. Is it ethical? The bottom line is most people that ask him to do it either don't care or don't think about it.

CVB has made plenty of pieces that are "inspired" by either Antique pieces, and pieces from places like Langs, Singlestone, EW and else where.

Yes Caysie is a "designer" - but she is also one "inspired" by other people's work too. The point is moot. I got over this whole argument and my outrage at anyone copying anyone else's stuff years ago. They all do it either by accident or by design and many people here do it. We are all adults if you don't like it don't ask for copies of stuff.
 

voce

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I'm at a stage in my life where I don't feel like I can afford CvB settings, and vintage isn't really my aesthetic anyway. And while I can afford DK, I am concerned that, should I have him create a custom design of my own, he might reuse elements of my design (such as a unique gallery) at some future date when he can no longer keep track of who provided the idea.

I am very much in disagreement with people who say that everything has been done before, that there are no longer unique combinations of design elements anymore. Whoever says so is either so jaded they don't pay close enough attention to the details, or is simply unimaginative.

What this thread does make abundantly clear to me, is that there are clearly consumers who don't feel like it's wrong to copy an idea without the permission of the person who came up with the idea first.

I don't think I'd have much right to be upset if someone liked my idea and had another jeweler execute it....and it probably would end up slightly different even if they started with a photo of my finished product. And I'd feel ok with making another "frankenring" in the future.

There must be people who feel the same way as bludiva, but then there are also people like me. The reason I sketch my own ring designs is so that I can have something unique. When I saw others' paraiba rings, for example, I tried to make my own unique and while I used the CRD setting, I still sought to create a different look than what I had already seen online, with the color combinations.

Threads like this make me not want to share the rings I designed via sketches because there are people who don't think I have the right to be upset that something I spent hours and days of my life pondering, redoing, is copied by others without my permission. I don't pretend that I'm as great as CvB or some professional designer, but the whole point of my creating a custom design is so that I can have something one-of-a-kind, not to be had by everyone.

I'm sorry to see there's bad blood between these two vendors. I think the problem, though, is not the designers' intent to copy, but the fault of unscrupulous consumers who don't respect the original designer. I can understand if, as the case of VC or antiques, the original bench no longer produces the design. But to take the look of an original design without buying it from the right source, is stealing real artists' livelihood. Go with something else, and stop requesting copycat looks, you consumers!

In my eyes, this is the same situation as people who blame China for making knockoff purses. Instead of being mad at the people who fulfill this demand in the first place, I blame the people who create the demand, the hypocrites who will pay for knockoff purses.
 

bludiva

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The reason I sketch my own ring designs is so that I can have something unique.

I totally hear that and I thought about that before posting photos of my ring. I wanted something that no one else had! But I realized in my case the jeweler is going to feel the design is theirs and won't hesitate to replicate it anyway and I just decided to let it go. I understand how you might want to keep a design private. I think there are some PSers who don't post their custom jewelry for this reason.

I also think there will always be people looking around for ideas don't have the skills or imagination or patience to come up with an original design and it doesn't occur to them that some are ok to replicate and some are not.
 

voce

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I totally hear that and I thought about that before posting photos of my ring. I wanted something that no one else had! But I realized in my case the jeweler is going to feel the design is theirs and won't hesitate to replicate it anyway and I just decided to let it go. I understand how you might want to keep a design private. I think there are some PSers who don't post their custom jewelry for this reason.
I think this is why I am only willing to work with jewelers I consider ethical and who won't take credit for my design when they execute it. I think I'm going to have to not post the one I've designed for my cushion ruby. Sorry this happened to you. FWIW, while I will not copy your rings, you have a beautiful collection! :geek2:
 

bludiva

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I think this is why I am only willing to work with jewelers I consider ethical and who won't take credit for my design when they execute it. I think I'm going to have to not post the one I've designed for my cushion ruby. Sorry this happened to you. FWIW, while I will not copy your rings, you have a beautiful collection! :geek2:

Enjoy that ruby in good health. Thank you for the kind compliment, it put a big smile on my face =)
 

FutureChocolateMLK

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I think this is why I am only willing to work with jewelers I consider ethical and who won't take credit for my design when they execute it. I think I'm going to have to not post the one I've designed for my cushion ruby. Sorry this happened to you. FWIW, while I will not copy your rings, you have a beautiful collection! :geek2:

I learned the hard way on this one. I had posted my design after spending countless hours pouring over inspiration photos, sketching, researching, and tweaking CADs until I came up with what I thought was perfect. Well, life got in the way and I had to put it on hold for financial reasons. In the meantime, everything I had worked on was out in the open for everyone to see, and imagine my surprise when it popped up on IG. Was my design some amazing, groundbreaking, life changing work of art? Nah. Was it something I put my heart and soul into that I was honestly quite proud of? (Only PSers will get this.) YES! Did it sting seeing it being worn by someone else before me? More than you know.

I will say I’m not one to care that my design was copied. In fact, I found it flattering that someone would love it enough to duplicate it to the “T.” The part that hurt was that I wasn’t the first. Call me a big baby if you must, but I got a little weepy over it if we’re all being honest here. Lol.

If it’s relevant to this discussion, I was also not asked by the consumer nor the jeweler if I was ok with it being replicated. I also wouldn’t have expected that to happen, until reading some of the responses in this thread.

I also feel I need to clarify that I don’t know how it came to be. Did the consumer request it after seeing it posted on a public forum? Did the jeweler offer it or suggest it as an option? I don’t have answers to these questions. I do, however, have only myself to blame. I realize that with unwavering certainty, unfortunately.

I understand that I’m not a jeweler, and this is not my livelihood, but just my opinion from a consumer’s standpoint. If you don’t want it copied, don’t put it out there. I also understand now (and relate to) why some users don’t post their journey until AFTER the piece is completed, if even then.

081681DF-86B8-4B55-B07F-40F0AC716A98.jpeg
 

rockhoundofficiando

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I understand DK may fill a niche with budget conscious designs using diamond simulants etc however I disagree with anyone purloining other designers intellectual property. (If that in fact even occured)

I had posted my design after spending countless hours pouring over inspiration photos, sketching, researching, and tweaking CADs until I came up with what I ....

081681DF-86B8-4B55-B07F-40F0AC716A98.jpeg
I'm sorry you could not wear your vision first. Surely DK participated heavily as well with CADs, advice, etc for the ring you commissioned? Do you know how much of a loss (time, materials etc) he incurred due to your inability to fulfill the financial obligation? I'm not excusing the use of someone else's design but could there be a belief of collaboration and feeling of entitlement after work performed on your behalf?
I hope you're able to afford your vision sometime in the future.
 
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FutureChocolateMLK

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I understand DK may fill a niche with budget conscious designs using diamond simulants etc however I disagree with anyone purloining other designers intellectual property. (If that in fact even occured)


I'm sorry you could not wear your vision first. Surely DK participated heavily as well with CADs, advice, etc for the ring you commissioned? Do you know how much of a loss (time, materials etc) he incurred due to your inability to fulfill the financial obligation? I'm not excusing the use of someone else's design but could there be a belief of collaboration and feeling of entitlement after work performed on your behalf?
I hope you're able to afford your vision sometime in the future.

I am 1000% in agreement with you on this, and it’s been a big factor in my mind as to why I just need to suck it up and be ok with it. ie: stop my pity party :lol:

While there was no design advice or “hand holding” that took place on his end, there was most certainly time and effort involved!

When the time comes, and it will, I will absolutely still be going to him to commission the piece. I don’t blame him by any means. Nor fault him for creating it for someone else. I’ve just learned my lesson in posting all the nitty gritty details before I had it in my possession.

Thank you for the kind words! I’m hoping so too! :kiss2:
 

MamaBee

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This is a sensitive spot for me. Before I joined Pricescope I didn’t give it a thought because I never had a setting made. I always purchased my settings at the jeweler. I had a ring made that I had wanted since I was 20 years old. I had the ring made 40+ years later. It is a design that is seen all over now..so it’s not a unique design..It’s fairly simple..After I joined Pricescope I was called on the carpet for copying a design because I said it was an exact copy of a ring I wanted since I was 20 years old... It really hurt me because I didn’t know I was doing anything wrong. I did make changes but there’s only so much you can change when the design is simple.

I recently purchased the cushion diamond you see in my avatar. I drew pictures..agonized over the size of the melee..how the shoulders would have the three little diamonds..the milgrain...I thought of everything myself...I had David make it..I basically drove him crazy changing my mind..sending him more kid scribble of what I wanted. After I received my ring..which I love...I was looking on an antique site and saw what looked like a ring that looked exactly like mine..the one I struggled over and didn’t copy..and see this ring. It was listed after I received my ring..but it made me realize that there’s only so much you can create that’s unique..unless it’s way off the charts different. If you’re looking for simple and elegant design..your chances of seeing something almost exactly like yours on a website wouldn’t be a surprise to me anymore..I’ve seen many antique rings that looked VERY similiar to loved vendor’s designs on here...The other thing is sometimes it can happen by mistake. I had another ring..a band.. made that I thought was an antique. I changed the design around a little and had it made. After the fact..I realized the company is still in business..I had never heard of the company before. It’s a very old company..I won’t post it on here. I even have trouble wearing it because it bothers me....At the present time I’m having an AV moissy ring made by DK..if I can come up with a design...but every time I draw something and then look online..I see one that looks like something I drew. My tastes are very simple so I guess that’s easier for this to happen. This whole thing gives me an eye twitch....
 

redwood66

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@Mamabean I am so sorry that you agonize so much over this issue. IMO no one should cause themselves such grief over an item that should bring joy to you, just because of the opinions of others. Please make what you like and enjoy it to the fullest. Your ring is lovely btw.=)2
 

MamaBee

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@Mamabean I am so sorry that you agonize so much over this issue. IMO no one should cause themselves such grief over an item that should bring joy to you, just because of the opinions of others. Please make what you like and enjoy it to the fullest. Your ring is lovely btw.=)2
Thank you @redwood66..I almost dropped off Pricescope after that but I really liked all the people on here. I’m so happy I decided to stay..Now everyone is stuck with me..:lol:
 

MamaBee

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PintoBean

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@Mamabean, your daughter needs her mama :lol-2::lol: (and that avatar ring:whistle:)
 

MamaBee

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GlitterInMyHair

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This is a sensitive spot for me. Before I joined Pricescope I didn’t give it a thought because I never had a setting made. I always purchased my settings at the jeweler. I had a ring made that I had wanted since I was 20 years old. I had the ring made 40+ years later. It is a design that is seen all over now..so it’s not a unique design..It’s fairly simple..After I joined Pricescope I was called on the carpet for copying a design because I said it was an exact copy of a ring I wanted since I was 20 years old... It really hurt me because I didn’t know I was doing anything wrong. I did make changes but there’s only so much you can change when the design is simple.

I recently purchased the cushion diamond you see in my avatar. I drew pictures..agonized over the size of the melee..how the shoulders would have the three little diamonds..the milgrain...I thought of everything myself...I had David make it..I basically drove him crazy changing my mind..sending him more kid scribble of what I wanted. After I received my ring..which I love...I was looking on an antique site and saw what looked like a ring that looked exactly like mine..the one I struggled over and didn’t copy..and see this ring. It was listed after I received my ring..but it made me realize that there’s only so much you can create that’s unique..unless it’s way off the charts different. If you’re looking for simple and elegant design..your chances of seeing something almost exactly like yours on a website wouldn’t be a surprise to me anymore..I’ve seen many antique rings that looked VERY similiar to loved vendor’s designs on here...The other thing is sometimes it can happen by mistake. I had another ring..a band.. made that I thought was an antique. I changed the design around a little and had it made. After the fact..I realized the company is still in business..I had never heard of the company before. It’s a very old company..I won’t post it on here. I even have trouble wearing it because it bothers me....At the present time I’m having an AV moissy ring made by DK..if I can come up with a design...but every time I draw something and then look online..I see one that looks like something I drew. My tastes are very simple so I guess that’s easier for this to happen. This whole thing gives me an eye twitch....
I'm so sorry you went through that. It's really not fair at all to expect customers to somehow be a walking encyclopedia of "who made what" on all the jewelry designs out there.

I'm glad you were able to get pass all that, as I really enjoy reading your posts :)
 

MamaBee

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I'm so sorry you went through that. It's really not fair at all to expect customers to somehow be a walking encyclopedia of "who made what" on all the jewelry designs out there.

I'm glad you were able to get pass all that, as I really enjoy reading your posts :)
Thank you @GlitterInMyHair..:kiss2:
 

PintoBean

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See @Mamabean ? The only big stink that should happen is when one of us beans causes someone to be awfully gassy :whistle:. Your ring is just fine and divine.:appl:
 

MamaBee

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diamondseeker2006

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This is a sensitive spot for me. Before I joined Pricescope I didn’t give it a thought because I never had a setting made. I always purchased my settings at the jeweler. I had a ring made that I had wanted since I was 20 years old. I had the ring made 40+ years later. It is a design that is seen all over now..so it’s not a unique design..It’s fairly simple..After I joined Pricescope I was called on the carpet for copying a design because I said it was an exact copy of a ring I wanted since I was 20 years old... It really hurt me because I didn’t know I was doing anything wrong. I did make changes but there’s only so much you can change when the design is simple.

I recently purchased the cushion diamond you see in my avatar. I drew pictures..agonized over the size of the melee..how the shoulders would have the three little diamonds..the milgrain...I thought of everything myself...I had David make it..I basically drove him crazy changing my mind..sending him more kid scribble of what I wanted. After I received my ring..which I love...I was looking on an antique site and saw what looked like a ring that looked exactly like mine..the one I struggled over and didn’t copy..and see this ring. It was listed after I received my ring..but it made me realize that there’s only so much you can create that’s unique..unless it’s way off the charts different. If you’re looking for simple and elegant design..your chances of seeing something almost exactly like yours on a website wouldn’t be a surprise to me anymore..I’ve seen many antique rings that looked VERY similiar to loved vendor’s designs on here...The other thing is sometimes it can happen by mistake. I had another ring..a band.. made that I thought was an antique. I changed the design around a little and had it made. After the fact..I realized the company is still in business..I had never heard of the company before. It’s a very old company..I won’t post it on here. I even have trouble wearing it because it bothers me....At the present time I’m having an AV moissy ring made by DK..if I can come up with a design...but every time I draw something and then look online..I see one that looks like something I drew. My tastes are very simple so I guess that’s easier for this to happen. This whole thing gives me an eye twitch....

I totally missed your thread and just went to find it! The holidays thru March are a blur to me because of wedding planning for our daughter! I have a break now and then things will be busy again in the summer, but I am glad I found the thread! I love your new ring!!! I do agree any of us could make a mistake like you mention about the band, because we see SO many pictures of antique style rings that sometimes it is impossible to know whether one is a true antique or a newly made ring! Don't feel bad about your band. You intentions were good, and I hope you can enjoy wearing it! We are glad you are here!
 

MamaBee

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Thank you @diamondseeker2006!
I’ve been through two weddings..I have sons though. I did do a small wedding for my son and daughter-in-law because they had to be married after sundown. My daughter-in-law is Jewish. They wanted to be married in a historic home in Va. but they had to be out by 10pm. That wouldn’t have worked....I suggested they get married after sundown on Saturday..and I would do a Wedding Dinner instead of a rehearsal dinner. They did the reception the next day. She even had two gowns! It worked out well..and I got to do a little wedding that I would have never done because I have boys. It was a fun weekend! Congratulations!
 

diamondseeker2006

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Thank you @diamondseeker2006!
I’ve been through two weddings..I have sons though. I did do a small wedding for my son and daughter-in-law because they had to be married after sundown. My daughter-in-law is Jewish. They wanted to be married in a historic home in Va. but they had to be out by 10pm. That wouldn’t have worked....I suggested they get married after sundown on Saturday..and I would do a Wedding Dinner instead of a rehearsal dinner. They did the reception the next day. She even had two gowns! It worked out well..and I got to do a little wedding that I would have never done because I have boys. It was a fun weekend! Congratulations!

What a sweet story and great solution! Thanks, we are having fun! Our other daughter is already married, so this is our last wedding!
 

arkieb1

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Thank you @redwood66..I almost dropped off Pricescope after that but I really liked all the people on here. I’m so happy I decided to stay..Now everyone is stuck with me..:lol:

I'm glad you stayed as well, it's jewellery it shouldn't cause anyone any degree of angst and drama but sometimes I'm sad to say it does on here.

Exactly my point above, some of the really loved jewellers recommended here have even by accident made almost exact copies of old designs. One of my favourites is Steven Kirsch's "True Love" ring, I love that ring, I found it's identical to an old Cartier design, I doubt Steven even realised that when he first made it. The same with a number of Caysie's designs, people show here, some are strikingly similar if not identical to old designs, other pieces of her work are completely unique, it just depends on the piece.

I see people here inspired by several different rings or designing what they think to be their own designs and frequently I've seen similar if not the same rings in other places. That probably is from over the years looking at way way too much jewellery... :whistle::lol::lol::whistle:
 
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SandyinAnaheim

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Messages
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I totally hear that and I thought about that before posting photos of my ring. I wanted something that no one else had! But I realized in my case the jeweler is going to feel the design is theirs and won't hesitate to replicate it anyway and I just decided to let it go. I understand how you might want to keep a design private. I think there are some PSers who don't post their custom jewelry for this reason.

I also think there will always be people looking around for ideas don't have the skills or imagination or patience to come up with an original design and it doesn't occur to them that some are ok to replicate and some are not.
I thought about all of this before posting pictures of my pendants. I did 6 months' worth of research into pendants and design elements of rings to find details that I could incorporate into my project. I was all over the place with inspiration, yet I never found what I was imagining in any picture I ever saw anywhere on the internet, not even in furniture or architectural designs. I learned to draw on CADs and that's how I came to being able to refine my own vision and design, with DK's help of course. Had they not given me the building blocks and elemental details I don't have the creativity to imagine, it would not be what it is. I asked Amy last week what would happen if someone came to her/DK and asked her for a duplicate of my pendants (not that I'm presumptuous enough to think that anyone would :P2) and she said she would ask me for permission first. I also want something unique that no one else has, and I think I have that. But why should it bother me if someone else, far away, has a copy of my design? I suppose it shouldn't bother me, but it does..... Could someone take my pictures to another jeweler and copy it? Of course. I can't control that. But that's why I didn't post my CADs to this project or my ER/WB, even though I needed the help of more experienced eyes.

I agonized over this thing for many weeks, and put many many hours into researching, thinking and honing my ideas, which I did NOT enjoy. To think someone else will come along and say "I want a duplicate of that", irks me. I don't own a "copy" of anything and actually, am somewhat anti-brand. I do NOT enjoy spending my money on something that 20 million other people have. No offense to those who love it, but I don't understand the appeal of Tiffany, Cartier, VCA etc. To me, those are all cookie-cutter pieces that ANYONE could have, if they can afford it, hence, not attractive to my taste.

All this to say, I agree with @bludiva. I wanted to share not only for the help of others' opinions, but because I enjoy looking at everyone's pieces and their journey, and thought some would enjoy seeing mine as well. But I wouldn't ever ask any jeweler to copy someone else's artistry, that feels wrong to me as I know how much work is involved in the creation of it.
 

diamondseeker2006

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I understand how you feel, Sandy. I thought about it when I posted my new pendant, because I do love it and in one way would like it to be the only one (but Caysie did take my ideas and design it, so it is her design to do as she wishes). Certainly your necklace has much work and love put into it, and I can see why you'd feel sad or disappointed if someone copied it. That's great that Amy said they wouldn't reproduce without your permission. I also agree that I never post CADs. I do think the only way to ensure there are no copies is to never post pictures, but then, what would PS be without pictures?! So it can be a dilemma when a piece is really original. I don't have that feeling about most of my jewelry, though. I'd be flattered for the most part.

In regard to antique rings and jewelry being reproduced, I often get inspiration from antique pieces! These are pieces not currently being made, so I don't see any issue since we are not depriving the designer income from their design (and they are likely no longer living, for that matter!). My antique asscher ring is a close repro of an antique Tiffany ring that probably hasn't been in production for 100 years and probably wasn't one of their more common designs. I have a whole folder of antique Tiffany and Cartier rings saved! I actually love their old work far more than the current lines!
 

SandyinAnaheim

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I just saw your pendant thread....it is amazing and perfect in its detail and execution! I agree and enjoy their retired work far more than their current (since the 1950s) work. To be honest, I don't have that feeling of possession over any of my other jewelry either, only the two things I've had a hand in bringing to life, which are not copies of anything else. The other pieces of jewelry I possess have been chosen for their uniqueness, usually because I haven't seen anything quite like it before. If I had, I'd be disinterested in owning it. I love it on other people and appreciate their beauty, but if I've seen it elsewhere, I don't want it. I'm so odd..... :confused2:
 
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