Wow, CvB just called out DK for copying one of her designs.

[OreoRosies86]

I find it interesting to see the comments about price. My oval rose cut setting was the most I have ever paid for any setting and the pure artistry and beauty in the setting is worth EVERY SINGLE PENNY to me. There are other designers that have a comparable price point and some that exceed it. I look down at my Anjolie ring and fall in love a little more each day. I absolutely do not think it is overpriced. There is something special about each aspect of my ring by Caysie. I have purchased by several designers and I can honestly say my Anjolie ring is in a league of its own. At the end of the day it's my own opinion and preference. I would never knock someone else's jewelery or choice of designer.

I won't get into the original reason for the post because it is pointless and enough has been said. However, to say a "pretty ring is a pretty ring" is offensive to the people who love the sentimental pieces that they have made by designers with a more artistic approach.

Clearly this is a topic with varied opinions but it is amazing to see how quickly these types of posts go downhill.

Maybe I'm not being clear? MY ering IS a CvB and I think it is gorgeous. However, I stand by my original opinion that a pretty ring is just that; a pretty ring! I don't care to spend twice the amount of money on a hand forged ring, and there are plenty who would. That's literally all I said. Not sure how anything I've said is being interpreted as being at all insulting to her work, quite the opposite I think? Her work is incredible for the money. I held my ring against a Van Craeynest and was MORE than impressed with the antique engraving and detailing of mine.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

OMG are those a PS'ers earrings??? Total copy of EW.

I don't have any idea whose they are. I saw them on IG and thought they were pretty. But then I realized they reminded me a lot of Yssie's.

(@Elliot86 Others commented about price so I don't think all the responses about price are being directed to you. I can't wait to see your ring! My daughter is getting a CVB ring, too, and I am impatiently waiting on him to give it to her!!!)

 

[HS4S_2]

Hi Elliott. I apologise for misinterpreting your post. My post was not directed to you. There were several posts about cost. I definitely didn't intend to call you out. I have reread your post and understand the meaning behind it .

Maybe I'm not being clear? MY ering IS a CvB and I think it is gorgeous. However, I stand by my original opinion that a pretty ring is just that; a pretty ring! I don't care to spend twice the amount of money on a hand forged ring, and there are plenty who would. That's literally all I said. Not sure how anything I've said is being interpreted as being at all insulting to her work, quite the opposite I think? Her work is incredible for the money. I held my ring against a Van Craeynest and was MORE than impressed with the antique engraving and detailing of mine.

 

[OreoRosies86]

I don't have any idea whose they are. I saw them on IG and thought they were pretty. But then I realized they reminded me a lot of Yssie's.

(@Elliot86 Others commented about price so I don't think all the responses about price are being directed to you. I can't wait to see your ring! My daughter is getting a CVB ring, too, and I am impatiently waiting on him to give it to her!!!)

Yeah it's super exciting! I want him to hurry up but I would also like a nice proposal story *sigh*

As for this thread I think I am either just not expressing myself well, or it's too late at night, or both

We all love our baubles and that's all that matters!

 

[bludiva]

Yeah it's super exciting! I want him to hurry up but I would also like a nice proposal story *sigh*

As for this thread I think I am either just not expressing myself well, or it's too late at night, or both

We all love our baubles and that's all that matters!

i think it's the thread itself that just went off the rails not your posts

[

Here is an easy solution: if you don’t like DK, don’t use him. If you don’t like CvB, don’t use her. No one is holding a gun to your head either way. It’s jewelry, and we’re all quite fortunate to be debating this very first world problem.

wisdom! good note for me to end this thread on. i hope these designers can work it out between them and everyone can keep enjoying their pretties.

 

[mary poppins]

 

[yssie]

I'd be curious as to how Erika Winters feels about [...] copying

I’m confident Erika would not mind me sharing that she doesn’t feel that copying other vendors’ signature designs is ethical or professional. My comment isn’t specific to any particular pieces, just addressing the general question.

 

[lovedogs]

Notice it's all members who do NOT have ANY of her pieces who consider them "overpriced?" I have held her settings NEXT to my VC Emilya and preferred her settings at the price point. WHY would anyone come here to say they are overpriced when they don't own one?

I guess it calls into question their motives. CVB fangirls? Yeah, Ok. Go search the posts of the ones who are quoting false information on cost, authenticity, and blatant apples to oranges photo comparisons. Do they not have one thing in common- rings by DK?

Come on...

What price is steep for a non-forged piece? You don't own any of her pieces! So you have no idea what kind of quality it is.

I'm honestly confused. You seem angry at me, when all I said was "in my opinion, her pieces are overpriced". I didn't say a word about quality, and I don't doubt for one minute that her pieces are very high quality. I personally think that this setting being $2400/$2500 for 14k gold is expensive, and more than I am willing to pay.





That's not to say it's not gorgeous (it is!) And I think it's amazing. Im just not willing to pay that price. That's all I'm saying. And I have no dog in this fight. I've never had a piece made by either artist (bought a pre loved dk setting once). So this isn't about favorites, it's just my opinion. And I've heard negative stuff about her communication. But again, that's just my thoughts. No offense meant to anyone who owns her stuff, because it's lovely, and I've never seen anything from her I didn't like. I'm just not sure why what I said made you react so angrily.

 

[D&T]

I have had one of Caysie's piece (soliatire) actually a few bands too, a VC and many DK all when they started out without a lot of following, I prefer to work with DK just becuase I like to build my own ring and direct with inspirations from many. SO I can say I am one that have had pieces made by these designers/jewelers, my work with CVB was more me directing, so its not their aesthetics, which is fine, pricewise, it was meh. I paid it, nothing special, probably not in her "type" of design, since then, price have risen, so I can attest that as much as I love some of CVB artistry, there are jewelers I prefer to work with more, and they "get" me and what I'm willing to pay as I'm sure many on here have their favorite jeweler or designer. I love working with DK's team, and Amy so I will continue to support them. At the end of the day people have different taste, different budget and different patience level and click with others more or less, nothing wrong with that.

 

[yssie]

To quibble about what is original or a frankenpiece is inane.

One could make this argument about every book ever written, every painting ever made, every piece of furniture ever designed, every vehicle ever sold, every computer every built, every purse or shoe or article of clothing ever manufactured, every brand logo ever crafted, every song ever composed...

Many people in many industries value and protect originality, creativity, and aesthetic. To suggest this protectiveness is misplaced because “all has been done before, and now we’re just building on our own history” is hyperbolic in the extreme.

 

[Matata]

One could make this argument about every book ever written, every painting ever made, every piece of furniture ever designed, every vehicle ever sold, every computer every built, every purse or shoe or article of clothing ever manufactured, every brand logo ever crafted, every song ever composed...

Many people in many industries value and protect originality, creativity, and aesthetic. To suggest this protectiveness is misplaced because “all has been done before, and now we’re just building on our own history” is hyperbolic in the extreme.

Your argument doesn't hold water. There's one Mona Lisa and there's a difference between a Mona Lisa that is a forgery and one that is copied. Change her hair color, slap a mustache on her and you still have a copy not an original. The mishmash of items you mention do not all apply to the issue raised by CvB. There are industries where legal protections exist in the form of copyright and trademark but as has been mentioned in this thread and others, there are no equivalent protections in jewelry making. There is no forgery on the part of DK as he is not advertising the ring as a CvB. The case can't even be made that the ring is an exact copy -- different metals -- and the quality of the DK ring looks subpar to the CvB. I did not suggest that being protective of one's "originality, creativity, and aesthetic" is misplaced, I said it's stupid to argue about what passes as original jewelry design.

In this particular case, the burden of proof is on CvB to show what is original about that ring. I see nothing in its elements nor the way it came together as a whole that hasn't been done before.

 

[soxfan]

I'm honestly confused. You seem angry at me, when all I said was "in my opinion, her pieces are overpriced". I didn't say a word about quality, and I don't doubt for one minute that her pieces are very high quality. I personally think that this setting being $2400/$2500 for 14k gold is expensive, and more than I am willing to pay.





That's not to say it's not gorgeous (it is!) And I think it's amazing. Im just not willing to pay that price. That's all I'm saying. And I have no dog in this fight. I've never had a piece made by either artist (bought a pre loved dk setting once). So this isn't about favorites, it's just my opinion. And I've heard negative stuff about her communication. But again, that's just my thoughts. No offense meant to anyone who owns her stuff, because it's lovely, and I've never seen anything from her I didn't like. I'm just not sure why what I said made you react so angrily.

I'm honestly confused. You seem angry at me, when all I said was "in my opinion, her pieces are overpriced". I didn't say a word about quality, and I don't doubt for one minute that her pieces are very high quality. I personally think that this setting being $2400/$2500 for 14k gold is expensive, and more than I am willing to pay.





That's not to say it's not gorgeous (it is!) And I think it's amazing. Im just not willing to pay that price. That's all I'm saying. And I have no dog in this fight. I've never had a piece made by either artist (bought a pre loved dk setting once). So this isn't about favorites, it's just my opinion. And I've heard negative stuff about her communication. But again, that's just my thoughts. No offense meant to anyone who owns her stuff, because it's lovely, and I've never seen anything from her I didn't like. I'm just not sure why what I said made you react so angrily.

Sorry lovedogs!

 

[yssie]

Your argument doesn't hold water. There's one Mona Lisa and there's a difference between a Mona Lisa that is a forgery and one that is copied. Change her hair color, slap a mustache on her and you still have a copy not an original. The mishmash of items you mention do not all apply to the issue raised by CvB. There are industries where legal protections exist in the form of copyright and trademark but as has been mentioned in this thread and others, there are no equivalent protections in jewelry making. There is no forgery on the part of DK as he is not advertising the ring as a CvB. The case can't even be made that the ring is an exact copy -- different metals -- and the quality of the DK ring looks subpar to the CvB. I did not suggest that being protective of one's "originality, creativity, and aesthetic" is misplaced, I said it's stupid to argue about what passes as original jewelry design.

In this particular case, the burden of proof is on CvB to show what is original about that ring. I see nothing in its elements nor the way it came together as a whole that hasn't been done before.

I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree on all counts. But we’ll survive, somehow, I’m sure

 

[mrs-b]

I wasn't going to add anything else to this thread, because I'd love to see it die. But I want to make the point that DKJ is a jewelry store. They carry hundreds and hundreds of rings, and none of them are CvB copies. They have an online store - and again - no CvB copies. DKJ is also blocked from seeing CvB's media and has been for some time, so it's not like they're seeing her things and reproducing them. Anything they do which is like her pieces is at the request of a client, so perhaps one needs to ask what responsibility the client has also.

And when a jeweler creates a piece, my experience is that a great deal of the design input is from the client. So there's also the aspect of whose design, really, is being copied? But let's assume, for the sake of argument, all of CvB's pieces are her sole inspiration - which I frankly doubt, given how much inspiration all jewelers pull from other places, but let's let that slide....

I am aware that DKJ has declined to make pieces they find out are Caysie's designs. They have also passed clients on to her who wanted her designs, or offered to make substantial changes. The client who brought the inspiration photo to DKJ for this last fiasco did not know from whence the picture came and DKJ made it in good faith.

What I DO know is that DKJ maintains a respectful silence rather than ranting on Instagram and stirring up conflict. And if CvB thinks the folks at DKJ are rubbing their hands together in delight every time they manage to 'put one over on her' - she is fair and far off.

If she picked up the phone, she'd perhaps realize how much her words hurt and upset some very good people.

Her pieces are beautiful. Her pricing is irrelevant to this conversation. What IS germane is that she, herself, has copied others also. The excuse that it was a mistake doesn't take that fact away. Why should other people not get the same pass she gives herself?

And this is why I HATE threads like this. It draws in people who do not own this problem and causes fissures between friends on this forum. This might be a 'grab the popcorn' scenario for some. But for others here, it's a genuine source of hurt.

 

[the_mother_thing]

@mrs-b I whole-heartedly agree the customer has some responsibility here, but how much, it’s hard to say because the ‘average’ consumer probably thinks nothing of it really. They show a picture to whomever and say “I want this exactly”. At THAT point, that’s where the jeweler - not just DK but ANY jeweler - should ask the client about the ring they want copied, who made it, and why they aren’t going to the originator of the piece. And maybe take that opportunity to educate the customer why an identical copy is wrong, but what he or she can do to create something similar yet distinctive for them. Then, let the customer decide if they want an inspired by piece or an original. That just seems to be the right thing to do.

I agree if CvB did it as well in the past, that was wrong. It sounds like she learned from her mistake and to my knowledge does not copy others’ work any longer. The problem here it seems is DK did it before and keeps doing it, even after being confronted about it. I don’t know why it has to be a phone call vs an email. I would prefer to do it in writing as a CYA as well as knowing how hard it is to get some of these folks on the phone at all. So I see no problem with her having emailed him. The point being - she did attempt to discuss it with him directly, multiple times. And it continues. Why doesn’t DK pick up the phone and call CvB?Again, I offer my opinion as someone who has used both benches and was happy with both vendors. I also have not discussed my opinions or stance on it with either vendor because it’s not my business nor place to inquire about the ‘behind the scenes’ details. We are all merely participants in the court of public opinion.

I also agree the snarky popcorn isn’t helpful.

 

[seaurchin]

I don't know anything about the individuals in this case. But if someone was copying your original designs without your permission (and just asking them to stop didn't work) I can think of three ways to try to curtail it:

(1) Sue them in court.

(2) Lower your prices so customers are less likely to go elsewhere.

(3) Call them out publicly and hope that embarrasses them into stopping or keeps at least some customers from requesting copies.

I think calling someone out is a pretty good strategy because it's the cheapest and easiest option of the three.

 

[Gussie]

It's really none of anyone's business. It's unfortunate that CvB tries to make it everyone's.

 

[bludiva]

(1) Sue them in court.

(2) Lower your own prices so people are less likely to go elsewhere, if that's a factor.

(3) Call them out publicly and hope that embarrasses them into stopping or keeps at least some customers from requesting copies.

I think calling someone out is a pretty good strategy because it's the cheapest and easiest option of the three.

I keep thinking I am done posting on this thread but I just have to say, I think #3 is happening because #1 isn't viable and I think its really too bad either vendor's customers are getting dragged into a proxy fight over something that ideally the jewelers would resolve amongst themselves. I understand the strong opinions on the topic but sorry to see it tug so deep at people on this board. Group hug time?

 

[sledge]

Just my 2 cents, but I think price does play into the equation. I will use myself as an example. When shopping for man's band, the ring below was suggested as an option. Honestly, it was something I really liked and one that I inquired about.

As you can see, there is nothing inherently unique about this ring. In fact I looked at several bands that was nearly identical to this one.

When I called I was quoted a price of around $3,000. I was told it was platinum, hand forged, etc.

I never once doubted the quality of the work. And I preferred a hand forged ring. But honestly, I wasn't paying that kind of money for more or less a plain band with line on one side that is scratched up and has no diamonds. If I had wanted to, I could have reached out to DK or just about anyone else and likely had this ring made for about 1/3 cost using a cast process.

I didn't do that. Instead I went a different direction.

But the point remains -- at the consumer level, people see a ring they want. They see a massive price difference between the two, yet both give the same (or near identical) look. The processes are different. Hell, if you get down to the nitty gritty I'm sure the radii on arcs/curves, spacing, thicknesses, etc are all different as well. Yes, they still capture the same aesthetics but probably don't truly qualify as knock off.

We may not like to admit or hear it, but pricing plays a major role in how the consumer proceeds. I'm not saying the higher price isn't justified, but it's the seller's responsibility to educate their potential customer why the price is higher and actually a good value for the quality they are receiving. You can't sit on your laurels and expect your name to be synonymous with excellence, unless your Tiffany (seriously, just joking).

Still, this doesn't ensure a potential customer will agree with the seller. And sometimes, even if they agree the customer simply does not have the budget to support the cost premium associated with hand forged vs cast.

 

[the_mother_thing]

I keep thinking I am done posting on this thread but I just have to say, I think #3 is happening because #1 isn't viable and I think its really too bad either vendor's customers are getting dragged into a proxy fight over something that ideally the jewelers would resolve amongst themselves. I understand the strong opinions on the topic but sorry to see it tug so deep at people on this board. Group hug time?

Not sure why someone would perceive it as a fight. To me, this is merely a discussion among consumers brought about by the actions of two jewelers.

I’m not feeling bent out of shape about it personally. But I’ll partake in the group hug!

@sledge Yes, pricing and budget does factor into who might use a particular vendor, but just because someone doesn’t have the budget to afford X doesn’t make it okay to rip from X. And that is the essence of this discussion really.

The double edged sword in ALL of this is if people/vendors didn’t post their pieces online, it probably wouldn’t be copied. The flip side is, without posting pics online, would you (vendor) have the business/following you do today? So to that degree, I agree it’s very difficult (especially financially) to prevent it from happening and I can see the argument that one almost invites it to happen when they promote their pieces online.

 

[mrs-b]

@mrs-b I whole-heartedly agree the customer has some responsibility here, but how much, it’s hard to say because the ‘average’ consumer probably thinks nothing of it really. They show a picture to whomever and say “I want this exactly”. At THAT point, that’s where the jeweler - not just DK but ANY jeweler - should ask the client about the ring they want copied, who made it, and why they aren’t going to the originator of the piece. And maybe take that opportunity to educate the customer why an identical copy is wrong, but what he or she can do to create something similar yet distinctive for them. Then, let the customer decide if they want an inspired by piece or an original. That just seems to be the right thing to do.

I agree if CvB did it as well in the past, that was wrong. It sounds like she learned from her mistake and to my knowledge does not copy others’ work any longer. The problem here it seems is DK did it before and keeps doing it, even after being confronted about it. I don’t know why it has to be a phone call vs an email. I would prefer to do it in writing as a CYA as well as knowing how hard it is to get some of these folks on the phone at all. So I see no problem with her having emailed him. The point being - she did attempt to discuss it with him directly, multiple times. And it continues. Why doesn’t DK pick up the phone and call CvB?Again, I offer my opinion as someone who has used both benches and was happy with both vendors. I also have not discussed my opinions or stance on it with either vendor because it’s not my business nor place to inquire about the ‘behind the scenes’ details. We are all merely participants in the court of public opinion.

I also agree the snarky popcorn isn’t helpful.

I disagree with the highlighted parts.

I'm with you on the popcorn part, tho.

 

[seaurchin]

Jewelry copyright and lawsuits:

https://creativeartsadvocate.com/bling-it-on-copyright-the-rise-of-jewelry-infringement-lawsuits/

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...rmodel-heidi-klum-in-ny-idUSN2129360420071221

https://saperlaw.com/2018/02/12/designer-inspired-jewelry-legal/


Since the Tiffany ring was referenced earlier, I thought I'd post this article explaining it's history:

https://theadventurine.com/bridal/engagement-rings/how-the-tiffany-setting-became-an-icon/

Interesting articles. Thank you, diamondseeker.

 

[Rfisher]

I feel for the actual benchworkers caught in between.
I’d like to think they are kept out of it- but I can’t see how?

 

[Bonfire]

Outside of suing DK for copyright infringement, which can be tough to prove legally, CVB has little recourse and she knows this. Using social media to shame him for what she perceives as unethical practices doesn’t solve her issues, but maybe was cathartic. They obviously have a history of rancor and neither of them are guiltless. Social media, the good the bad and the ugly.

 

[bludiva]

I disagree with the highlighted parts.

I'm with you on the popcorn part, tho.

I didn't mean to rile people with my popcorn comment. Sorry but anytime "CVB" is in the title of a thread, drama seems to ensue. I don't exactly know why but have read enough here to guess there is a lot of backstory.

The overall subject to me remains super interesting - where to draw the line on copying vs remixing & how people arrive at their points of view. The inter-artist drama, not so much.

 

[the_mother_thing]

The overall subject to me remains super interesting - where to draw the line on copying vs remixing & how people arrive at their points of view. The inter-artist drama, not so much.

I very much agree with you. I wish we could discuss this topic without the loyalty/emotion attached to any particular vendor and simply on the merits of what is generally accepted as ‘right’ vs. ‘wrong’. Given this IS a jewelry forum, and people do come here for input, ideas, inspiration, suggestions, etc., it’d be great if there was a less acrimonious thread we could point to and say “here is where the suggested boundaries lie with regard to inspired-by pieces”.

 

[Bonfire]

I very much agree with you. I wish we could discuss this topic without the loyalty/emotion attached to any particular vendor and simply on the merits of what is generally accepted as ‘right’ vs. ‘wrong’. Given this IS a jewelry forum, and people do come here for input, ideas, inspiration, suggestions, etc., it’d be great if there was a less acrimonious thread we could point to and say “here is where the suggested boundaries lie with regard to inspired-by pieces”.

And along these lines I pose the question, how much influence do PSers contribute? We obviously are consumers to these vendors and others. We come here, show our bling, gush on about this or that, rave or complain about vendor’s pricing or commuication, etc. A newbe or lurker on the site can take a picture from SMTB, take it to a different vendor, “Oh I have this picture, I don’t know where I got it, can you make it for me?” WE are some of their best or worst advertising. Interesting to think about.

 

[Octo2005]

No, I'm saying my ring is CvB too, and her prices aren't in that range. Hand forged? Cool. CAD? Cool. Some designers start their setting prices where hers you could get the whole ring!

Every few years designer drama crops up and it's so silly.

I have had several rings made by various jewelers and I have not found Caysie's pricing to be that far out of line with what I have paid for other similar pieces. In fact, in hind-sight there is at least one piece that I wish I had just gone with her to begin with. While many artists are capable of making a beautiful piece of jewelry, I find that Caysie's work has a level of refinement in the detailing that I don't see in other similarly priced pieces. By that I mean, that her work holds up to my 30x loupe and still looks exquisite. The millgrain is perfect and every little detail still looks amazing under magnifiaction.

 

[OreoRosies86]

I have had several rings made by various jewelers and I have not found Caysie's pricing to be that far out of line with what I have paid for other similar pieces. In fact, in hind-sight there is at least one piece that I wish I had just gone with her to begin with. While many artists are capable of making a beautiful piece of jewelry, I find that Caysie's work has a level of refinement in the detailing that I don't see in other similarly priced pieces. By that I mean, that her work holds up to my 30x loupe and still looks exquisite. The millgrain is perfect and every little detail still looks amazing under magnifiaction.

Yes, I agree!

 

[mrs-b]

Outside of suing DK for copyright infringement, which can be tough to prove legally, CVB has little recourse and she knows this. Using social media to shame him for what she perceives as unethical practices doesn’t solve her issues, but maybe was cathartic. They obviously have a history of rancor and neither of them are guiltless. Social media, the good the bad and the ugly.

No, they don't. The rancor (and nasty threats) are one sided. A case of going in with a sledgehammer when a request would have worked just fine. DKJ has tried to honor her demands many times, but their volume is so huge, some will always slip through the cracks.