will Obama be a good President?

[miraclesrule]

Amen Kimberly!! I used to work for our local, large city government in San Diego, and the politics and waste disgusted me. But what disgusted me even more was that nobody discussed it. If you did, you were no doubt about to be ostrasized by the "mob" of complacent government employees who either didn''t want to "rock the boat" or had higher political aspirations. I found myself wondering if it was this bad at the local level, how bad could it be at the State or Federal level. I received my answer when I hopped over the the County, which was almost worse. That''s why it isn''t hard to get me to believe that the Federal government will shell out $600 for a hammer that I can get at Home Depot for less than $20.

My take on the problem is the party system. Not only for the country, but for the citizens that make up the populace. It''s as outdated as a pantaloon and a handwheel yarn spinner. If it wasn''t for progress we wouldn''t even have the ability to engage with other on this forum. We have progressed through the industrial age and now the communications age, but what has changed? It''s easier to explore what hasn''t changed. Our individual and collectives fears. People are afraid of a gang member but fail to acknowledge or even to understand that their affliation consists of the same mentality. Violence doesn''t have to be physical. Unjustly taking away a person''s freedom is also a form of torture.

There are so many hypocrises in the government vs. state that nobody will talk about. For instance, every session on Capitol Hil begins with a "reading" by a rabbi and and a pastor. Ohhhh, but don''t even think about that at school. (Nor do I advocate it...but I would substitute a much better mantra)

The parties want you to believe that they want to see us all as Americans, whose character defines them and not the color of their skin, their gender, their sexual preferences, etc... but if you look at each major political party, they have a Latino caucaus, a women''s caucas, an African American caucus, etc, etc... I invite everyone on this board to peruse the main party websites to see the myriad of "committees" and groups that divide their constituency by every label imaginable.

Until this stops...in government, on campus, in the workplace, there will be little progress and the color of someones skin, their gender, their sex life, etc... will all pre-occupy our time...as it is probably intended to do....so that we can never be united by our simuliarities, but by our man made projected differences.

 

[KimberlyH]

Miracles, When a teacher can fall asleep in her classroom so soundly that her students have to go to the office and get help, because they are afraid she is in danger, and she is given the opportunity to take medical leave of absence as opposed to being fired on the spot, I can't help but bat my eyes. And when librarians spend their days reading books in their offices, rather than working with the public, I am dumbfounded. And when I see that CalTrans has moved to a brand new, state of the art building, when the old one was perfectly operable, and the off ramp to my house is going to be under construction until 2012, then I want to pull my hair out. Taxes, when used appropriately, are not a bad thing. But when projects that should last months continue on for years, and I'm afraid to drive down certain streets because the potholes are so large that my small pick up might get stuck, all while politicians are meeting for lunch on my dollar to make backdoor deals with lobbyists, I simply can't stomach that I'm going to have to pay even more than my husband and I already are from our hard earned salaries, while we continue to cut back, cut back, and cut back and hope that the economy eventually turns around.

ETA: As for the party system, I believe it's as antiquated as you claim. As for the system of politicians' campaigns being funded by lobbyists and special interests, if we simply disallowed that practice our system would change drastically (working in a public affairs office accross the street from the capital in Sacramento has given me amazing insight into the workings of our gov't and I'm not proud of what I witnessed). So I'm right there with you, so sad to say.

 

[FrekeChild]

I'll do it for you Miracles. I think it's a good topic. I hope you don't mind. (Good lord I feel like I'm walking around on eggshells now.)

(Miracles post as originally seen in the President McCain thread)

I am going to repost here the same post I just posted on the Obama thread because I think it speaks to the problem of "segregation" in the political sense...well I will post it once I have a chance to copy paste and open two windows.

What I would like to suggest to the wonderful people in this community is that we have ONE thread to discuss who we believe would be the best president, without their "gang label" of Democrat or Republican, conservative or liberal. So many of us are both in a broad sense and neither in a political sense. I am fiscally conservative and socially liberal if I had to find a narrow definition. But one thing I can tell you is...we are all the same. We have the same needs. We many have different strategies that we believe will get those needs met, but you can't deny the need. It's inherently human (and so far, I think we are all human, but eh, you never know).

I would like to know what is your greatest fear/s? And once we have those outlined, you will see that we are all the same. Then we can be a beacon of light in the political discussion arena without resorting to the historical divisive comments that result in the "attack and defend" mentality. We should not try to "convince" each other of our views. Let's focus on our needs and the feelings we have about those needs being met or not met and then explore whether or not we think either of the candidates are capable of doing so.

I can start:

I feel scared because I see so much violence both domestically and internationally that undermines my need for safety and security.

I feel sad because I see so much inequality in access to markets, food and shelter that undermines my need for fairness.

I feel angry because I see so much corruption and dishonesty that undermines my need for honesty.

I feel lonely because I see that it is easier to make a friend online in this forum than it is to get neighbors to trust and build community and that undermines my need for connection and love.

Okay...that is all I have for now. I have to think about this further and my Tilipia is ready.

 

[miraclesrule]

Feelings List

Needs List


I totally thing I am the shiznit for figuring out to create the link without cutting and pasting a link, so right now I am feeling very "proud", right under confident. What I like about these lists is that the feeling are broken down into those you feel when your needs are being met and those when you are....the needs are merely needs. Cool, eh?

 

[FrekeChild]

My fears/issues include, but are certainly not limited to:

The fact that our government is using our fear of terrorism to take away our most basic freedom and privacy.

The fact that our educational system has holes in it the size of Texas.

The fact that our government, the democracy that was made by the people, for the people is not held accountable when it works against the people.

The fact that the two party system has produced segregation and separation since it''s incarnation. I heard once that the most stable number for a group with differing opinions is 5, but I don''t remember where.

The fact that the people who get elected into government seats are the ones who are the most popular, and can raise the most money, but are not the best suited for the job.

That the president (and I''m not talking about only the current one, but several of our most recent) is not held accountable by the people.

That government officials are corrupt and dealing under the tables with those with which most of the American public would find distasteful.

That American society as a whole seems to feel entitled. For instance, Europeans have been paying way more than $5 a gallon for gas for a very long time.

That American society is becoming more and more ignorant, and accepting of that ignorance.

That celebrity has more impact on electing political officials than the issues do. And that political party has more impact on electing political officials than issues do, as well.

That the health care system is unfair and biased to the rich, while working against the poor at the same time.

That homelessness is an ever growing problem.

That differences between people are something to embrace, not throw away.

That everyone takes their freedom and socioeconomic status for granted. And hardly anyone thinks about how to change it, or how things that happen in the rest of the world can change it.

That the US seems to think of itself as *Team America: World Police* (yes, I got that from the movie, but it disturbs me that we have so many problems here, and meanwhile the government sees fit for it to help govern and police the rest of the world.)

That the media has such a big role in today''s society.

That everyone is so isolated from each other. What happened to baking cookies when someone moves in next door?

I think I''m done for the moment...These were just random off the top of my head thoughts of my issues with todays society. I''m sorry if they did not fit the criteria that you were originally thinking. (And apparently still walking on those eggshells.)

 

[FrekeChild]

Miracles. I wish I could meet you in person. I think you and I would get along amazingly well. (And imagine the shoes!)

 

[miraclesrule]

LOL....I think we would too!! And I could even take some shoes off your hands...err, I mean feet. But I think you had bigger shoes to fill!!

I think your list is a damn good start. My hope was that we could all identify our fears..and then once we could do that, we could start exploring and examining our fears about the candidates themselves. Not projecting fears onto them, but really examining them. Based on our history and 9/11 and religious influence, it is not surprising that folks would project their own fears , or others fears who have influenced them. I will be the first to admit that when my Dad was diagnosed with AIDS, I went through a lot of fears. I didn''t want my daughter to be around him. I wouldn''t let him touch my food. I totally freaked when he took a sip of my Sprite (but that was because he totally backwashed and I had just had a tooth pulled....I think there was a mild risk). Yet, over time I began to realize that most of my fears were not supported by evidence. I took care of him for 15 years and he was...how can I put this...not responsible at all. He was in denial and had a lot of mental issues, but having an annual AIDS test for myself relieved me of the initial hesitations I had...like never using his bathroom.

So much of our miscommunication is based on an interpretation or fear that is just not valid. The more we explore that, the more likely we are to have true connection and realize that we share more than we think, even when we do conflict over the strategy we chose to employ the get those needs met.

BTW, where you do live. Maybe one day we will get to meet.

Oh, I need SDL to help me with my avatar...I got my hair done yesterday...I''m offically a brunette.

Okay, so back to feelings:

I am definately petrified that our educational system will render the American youth unable to compete in the global market.

I am devastated that we are killing innocent people in a country as well as our own soldiers for a war that shouldn''t have been undertaken.

I am enraged that we are abandoning our wounded and traumatized military personnel when they return from their tours of duty.

I am enraged that we are attempting to silence the voices of our soldiers about what is really happening.

I am terrified that the American citizen won''t seize their power and exercise their voice and demand a change.

I am afraid I will live to see the end of America

Now for the good stuff...

I am ecstatic that the younger generation is engaged and trusts that they can empower each other to transform our country and our world.

I am hopeful that I can alter my black dress and not have to purchase a new one to walk my daughter down the aisle.

I am grateful to have met some PS''ers and bought a cool new green dress for a wedding in October.

Okay, now the wine is kicking in and I am about to get all silly.....

 

[miraclesrule]

Boo....my links didn''t work. Now I am feeling embarrassed.

 

[miraclesrule]

I am going to do this again, because I am one tenacious little earthling...

Feelings List

Needs List

They better work this time...dangit.

 

[miraclesrule]

 

[FrekeChild]

I live in New Mexico, but that is likely to change in 2-3 years (when BF-DH by then-gets his PhD and we HAVE to move so he can get a job) and hopefully we'll end up on the west coast (Seattle would be ideal, but I'd take most of it, except for LA), or the northern east coast (NYC would be ideal for me, but not for our wallets). I'd be happy with CO and AK, and he'd be THRILLED with HI (he has a thing for the ocean). Anyway! I'm sure that's more info than you needed, so I'll get back to the subject at hand.

I am absolutely terrified that our younger generation is absolutely disconnected from the real world, and is so used to instant gratification, that when they don't get whatever they want-whenever they want and they have to do something for themselves...they won't know what to do. That the youngest generation will be so self-absorbed that they don't even care about anything except what prevents them from getting what they want. Will they be self sufficient? Will they be competent to take over? Will they be inspired or passionate about ANYTHING besides video games and text messaging?

I am also terrified that my generation will be left with a mess in 20 years. I bet oil will be gone or in very short supply. I don't know what will have happened to the environment. I'm sure many more species will have become extinct, and the rain forest will be almost gone, or totally gone. I think that the government is totally screwed up and getting worse, but I don't see anything changing in 10-20 years. I don't even know how to fix it. I suppose if I did I'd be very rich and working for the government or be on the run from the government because they want me dead for some *crime*.

I am scared that all of the soldiers that are coming back from Iraq are going to be like Vietnam vets. I know enough about PTSD that it can be dangerous unless treated extensively, and with the way things are going so far in the government, I don't see it changing or getting better. Everything about the war disturbs me, but seeing PTSD and it's effects in a day to day setting is beyond comprehension. Those soldiers will never be the same.

I am afraid that now that we are involved in a global community and the world is shrinking, at the same time Americans are Americanizing more and more of it-and thats not a good thing. And, there are Americans who are terrified of the rest of the world or indifferent to it-and they don't care to change that.

I don't know that I'm making sense. I need a glass of wine.

 

[ksinger]

Date: 6/8/2008 3:05:00 AM
Author: FrekeChild
I live in New Mexico, but that is likely to change in 2-3 years (when BF-DH by then-gets his PhD and we HAVE to move so he can get a job) and hopefully we''ll end up on the west coast (Seattle would be ideal, but I''d take most of it, except for LA), or the northern east coast (NYC would be ideal for me, but not for our wallets). I''d be happy with CO and AK, and he''d be THRILLED with HI (he has a thing for the ocean). Anyway! I''m sure that''s more info than you needed, so I''ll get back to the subject at hand.

I am absolutely terrified that our younger generation is absolutely disconnected from the real world, and is so used to instant gratification, that when they don''t get whatever they want-whenever they want and they have to do something for themselves...they won''t know what to do. That the youngest generation will be so self-absorbed that they don''t even care about anything except what prevents them from getting what they want. Will they be self sufficient? Will they be competent to take over? Will they be inspired or passionate about ANYTHING besides video games and text messaging?

I am also terrified that my generation will be left with a mess in 20 years. I bet oil will be gone or in very short supply. I don''t know what will have happened to the environment. I''m sure many more species will have become extinct, and the rain forest will be almost gone, or totally gone. I think that the government is totally screwed up and getting worse, but I don''t see anything changing in 10-20 years. I don''t even know how to fix it. I suppose if I did I''d be very rich and working for the government or be on the run from the government because they want me dead for some *crime*.

I am scared that all of the soldiers that are coming back from Iraq are going to be like Vietnam vets. I know enough about PTSD that it can be dangerous unless treated extensively, and with the way things are going so far in the government, I don''t see it changing or getting better. Everything about the war disturbs me, but seeing PTSD and it''s effects in a day to day setting is beyond comprehension. Those soldiers will never be the same.

I am afraid that now that we are involved in a global community and the world is shrinking, at the same time Americans are Americanizing more and more of it-and thats not a good thing. And, there are Americans who are terrified of the rest of the world or indifferent to it-and they don''t care to change that.

I don''t know that I''m making sense. I need a glass of wine.

There is no doubt about it Freke, these are tough times. It''s not a happy read, but I suggest (if you haven''t already read it) "Bad Money" (a goodly portion of which I have read), or "Wealth and Democracy", (which has frustratingly vanished from our "stacks" and has yet to return from the mists, says DH. I have not yet read that one, but it''s on "the list".) In each one, in varying degree and each with a slightly different emphasis, Phillips shows the parallels between what America is doing today, financially and politically and religiously, and what Spain, Holland, and Great Britain did prior to their exits from stage as leading world powers. And the parallels are pretty staggering. Of course, none of this is calculated to make the reader feel all warm and fuzzy, but I find it helps gain a bit of perspective, that we are not doing anything greatly unique - that this has been done before. The defensive insularity, the nationalism, the over-the-top religious rhetoric and belief that we are the unique savior of the rest of the world, imperial military overreach, and the churning of money to drive the economy over making actual goods, it''s not new.

Of course you''re right, there are new pressures this time around, like oil, which complicates things. As for the younger folks, well, I don''t know. Even though I don''t have kids, I deal with a collective guilt of sorts when I admit that my generation has much to answer for as the parents of the generation you speak of. If each generation has a flaw, then self-absorbed kids is probably the defining flaw of mine. And that is a generalization I realize. There are many more passionate and well-raised kids than not, still. But you''re right, it seems that the numbers are growing of those that are not. Just a little FYI here - the DH says that in general, the goup of kids he got this year was noticeably more passive than even just 5 years ago, and more brittle and unable to deal with things.

And yeah, the wounded coming back from Iraq, well there''s the other cost of the war that no one is wanting to talk about much. Not only are we pretty much bankrupt by the war itself, we will be paying the price for these people both financially and socially, for the next 50 years at least. And if we try to push it under the rug, which we probably will, it will bite us on the rear, and probably even more than Vietnam did.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 6/7/2008 8:07:35 PM
Author: KimberlyH

Date: 6/5/2008 2:15:07 PM

Author: surfgirl

Date: 6/5/2008 1:24:59 PM

Author: Dancing Fire

Karen,SG and MC...


the reason i ask this Q cuz i don''t know anything about Obama,good or bad. i''ll say this though...if he plans on raising taxes ''he ain''t getting my vote''

I just never understand this mentality DF. You do realize that taxes are what provide drinking water, paved roads, police and fire/EMT/life guard services, public schools, some public universities, etc. Taxes are what run our country. When politicians pander to those who are tax-phobic, acting like taxes are evil, it''s just bizarre to me. Without taxes, we''d all be running around like animals, trying to make basic services work for ourselves. With taxes, communities, towns, cities, the country, are run with services that while not completely uniform, are relatively accessible nationwide. We have so many problems in this country, I have no problem with a little taxation as long as it is used wisely and for the most needed purposes.

As I have said before I am not affiliated with either political party, but I am opposed to taxes being raised and thought I might shed some light on the mentality DF expressed but did not expand upon.


I would have no problem paying taxes, if the government were both efficient and transparent, but it is neither of those things. I have worked for several governmental agencies, and have many friends and relatives who do as well, so I have had experiences with local, state and federal government and I am sickened by the waste and the ''spend it or lose it'' mantra of government that perpetuates unnecessary spending. It''s not about ''a little taxation'' it''s about government waste, especially in a time when people are struggling to put gas in their cars and food on their tables.


ETA: my belief about government waste extends to both Democrats and Republicans, it is in no way party based as I believe both groups have proved themselves to be irresponsible with taxpayer dollars.

Well I''ll have to agree with you here Kimberly. I understand people who are opposed to higher taxes if their reasoning is the same as yours. What I do not understand are people that don''t ask for efficiency and transparency but just want to pay less. I''ve been complaining for many years, hell, even when I was a teen, about where my tax dollars go. When that highway bridge collapsed in Minneapolis I made this face

. I haven''t followed the story since it broke so someone can feel free to fill me in, but I was wondering what happened to the city''s tax dollars. Wasn''t it meant to maintain the dang roads? Apparently all they had been doing is superficial fixes. That''s crazy to me. So yeah, government transparency is one of the many reasons I''m supporting Obama. There are too many fat cats in Washington living the good life off of my money while our roads fall (among other things) to pieces.

Oh and speaking of government workers. One friend, and this was years ago, she was in college and working for the summer. She worked for an agency that hired her just to spend the money. She spent all day on the work telephone making long distance phone calls and then she''d take like a 3 hour lunch. I remember my blood boiling back then. That''s where my federal tax dollars were going. Another guy, I didn''t know him well, we just chatting occasionally, he up and quit his job with the government because the amount of waste and the lack of work was disturbing to him. He said he just couldn''t take it. I wanted to give him a hug.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 6/7/2008 10:01:50 PM
Author: miraclesrule
Amen Kimberly!! I used to work for our local, large city government in San Diego, and the politics and waste disgusted me. But what disgusted me even more was that nobody discussed it. If you did, you were no doubt about to be ostrasized by the ''mob'' of complacent government employees who either didn''t want to ''rock the boat'' or had higher political aspirations. I found myself wondering if it was this bad at the local level, how bad could it be at the State or Federal level. I received my answer when I hopped over the the County, which was almost worse. That''s why it isn''t hard to get me to believe that the Federal government will shell out $600 for a hammer that I can get at Home Depot for less than $20.


My take on the problem is the party system. Not only for the country, but for the citizens that make up the populace. It''s as outdated as a pantaloon and a handwheel yarn spinner. If it wasn''t for progress we wouldn''t even have the ability to engage with other on this forum. We have progressed through the industrial age and now the communications age, but what has changed? It''s easier to explore what hasn''t changed. Our individual and collectives fears. People are afraid of a gang member but fail to acknowledge or even to understand that their affliation consists of the same mentality. Violence doesn''t have to be physical. Unjustly taking away a person''s freedom is also a form of torture.


There are so many hypocrises in the government vs. state that nobody will talk about. For instance, every session on Capitol Hil begins with a ''reading'' by a rabbi and and a pastor. Ohhhh, but don''t even think about that at school. (Nor do I advocate it...but I would substitute a much better mantra)


The parties want you to believe that they want to see us all as Americans, whose character defines them and not the color of their skin, their gender, their sexual preferences, etc... but if you look at each major political party, they have a Latino caucaus, a women''s caucas, an African American caucus, etc, etc... I invite everyone on this board to peruse the main party websites to see the myriad of ''committees'' and groups that divide their constituency by every label imaginable.


Until this stops...in government, on campus, in the workplace, there will be little progress and the color of someones skin, their gender, their sex life, etc... will all pre-occupy our time...as it is probably intended to do....so that we can never be united by our simuliarities, but by our man made projected differences.

I agree with the above. I will say one thing about the various caucuses. Those are probably in place because in the government, those particular groups do not have enough representation. These groups provide the opportunity to network and perhaps address the problems that specifically pertain to those groups but would otherwise not be addressed by the dominant straight white male structure.

 

[ksinger]

Here''s a fun, speculative piece about what kind of president each candidate might be. No hyperbole, just reasonable projections based on what we know about each candidate. I thought it was reasonably nuanced.

And has anyone else ever noticed how the media outlets don''t call our leader The President anymore, but The Commander-in-chief? I find that utterly creepy....that subconscious permanent war mentality I''ve mentioned before. A little thing maybe, but very telling to my mind...

Obama or McCain? How will America fare under the 44th commander-in-chief?

 

[KimberlyH]

Date: 6/8/2008 9:44:22 AM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 6/7/2008 8:07:35 PM
Author: KimberlyH
As I have said before I am not affiliated with either political party, but I am opposed to taxes being raised and thought I might shed some light on the mentality DF expressed but did not expand upon.


I would have no problem paying taxes, if the government were both efficient and transparent, but it is neither of those things. I have worked for several governmental agencies, and have many friends and relatives who do as well, so I have had experiences with local, state and federal government and I am sickened by the waste and the ''spend it or lose it'' mantra of government that perpetuates unnecessary spending. It''s not about ''a little taxation'' it''s about government waste, especially in a time when people are struggling to put gas in their cars and food on their tables.


ETA: my belief about government waste extends to both Democrats and Republicans, it is in no way party based as I believe both groups have proved themselves to be irresponsible with taxpayer dollars.

Well I''ll have to agree with you here Kimberly. I understand people who are opposed to higher taxes if their reasoning is the same as yours. What I do not understand are people that don''t ask for efficiency and transparency but just want to pay less. I''ve been complaining for many years, hell, even when I was a teen, about where my tax dollars go. When that highway bridge collapsed in Minneapolis I made this face

. I haven''t followed the story since it broke so someone can feel free to fill me in, but I was wondering what happened to the city''s tax dollars. Wasn''t it meant to maintain the dang roads? Apparently all they had been doing is superficial fixes. That''s crazy to me. So yeah, government transparency is one of the many reasons I''m supporting Obama. There are too many fat cats in Washington living the good life off of my money while our roads fall (among other things) to pieces.

Oh and speaking of government workers. One friend, and this was years ago, she was in college and working for the summer. She worked for an agency that hired her just to spend the money. She spent all day on the work telephone making long distance phone calls and then she''d take like a 3 hour lunch. I remember my blood boiling back then. That''s where my federal tax dollars were going. Another guy, I didn''t know him well, we just chatting occasionally, he up and quit his job with the government because the amount of waste and the lack of work was disturbing to him. He said he just couldn''t take it. I wanted to give him a hug.

The trouble is the government has created so many jobs, not just for fat cats in Washington, but for the Dilbertesque office workers that do next to nothing all day because they work for agencies that are doing the same thing four others are in different buildings with the same name, that to streamline now, which is something that must happen for our government to become more efficient and transparent, lots of people would lose their jobs, which would create a whole new slew of problems.

I haven''t had tea yet, so that''s one long sentence and I''m hoping it makes sense.

 

[MoonWater]

I fear that the executive branch of our government will attain so much power that the people will not be able to control it anymore.

I fear that American citizens have learned to fear the government and thus are afraid to challenge its many flaws.

I think it’s sad that when you challenge the issues you have with the government, people immediately resort to the patriotism argument.

I think it’s absolutely annoying that in this day and age people are still more concerned with superficial aspects of patriotism instead of adhering to the founding documents.

I fear that the ignorance and apathy of American citizens will continue to allow their government to grow larger and take over their lives.

I think it’s sad that with all of our knowledge, technology, and arrogance about our accomplishments as a human race, we are still easily manipulated by fear.

I think it’s sad that people still can’t properly address both the race and gender issues this country suffers from.

I think it’s sad that people refuse to research and teach themselves things beyond themselves to the point of harboring prejudice and biases that they are so oblivious to that they become angry and defensive when you point them out.

I am utterly frustrated at the level of segregation still going on in this country and how a poor minority receives a lower quality education than the rest of the country. This end up having various negative impacts such as inability to do well on standardized test (don’t even get me started on the other issues with this), inability to compete in the job market, and overall inability to compete in life. It’s very hard to progress out of poor conditions without a proper education. Hell, I remember when I was in high school most of the shelves were empty in the library!!

I think it’s sad that politicians have to dumb themselves down in order for the majority of people to understand.

I fear people are taking our “superpower” status for granted and don’t realize that America, if it continues on this path, will have little to no power on the rest of the world.

I am annoyed that people don’t see the problem with whining about high prices for goods while bitching about companies outsourcing.

I’m frustrated that I’m forced to pay into social security when it won’t be there when I need it.

I’m angry that there aren’t laws preventing people from driving and talking on their cell (unless hands free and even that still bothers me a bit since people do it with such excess), or driving and texting!!! People are crap drivers as it is, they don’t need anymore distractions.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 6/8/2008 3:05:00 AM
Author: FrekeChild
I live in New Mexico, but that is likely to change in 2-3 years (when BF-DH by then-gets his PhD and we HAVE to move so he can get a job) and hopefully we''ll end up on the west coast (Seattle would be ideal, but I''d take most of it, except for LA), or the northern east coast (NYC would be ideal for me, but not for our wallets). I''d be happy with CO and AK, and he''d be THRILLED with HI (he has a thing for the ocean). Anyway! I''m sure that''s more info than you needed, so I''ll get back to the subject at hand.


I am absolutely terrified that our younger generation is absolutely disconnected from the real world, and is so used to instant gratification, that when they don''t get whatever they want-whenever they want and they have to do something for themselves...they won''t know what to do. That the youngest generation will be so self-absorbed that they don''t even care about anything except what prevents them from getting what they want. Will they be self sufficient? Will they be competent to take over? Will they be inspired or passionate about ANYTHING besides video games and text messaging?


I am also terrified that my generation will be left with a mess in 20 years. I bet oil will be gone or in very short supply. I don''t know what will have happened to the environment. I''m sure many more species will have become extinct, and the rain forest will be almost gone, or totally gone. I think that the government is totally screwed up and getting worse, but I don''t see anything changing in 10-20 years. I don''t even know how to fix it. I suppose if I did I''d be very rich and working for the government or be on the run from the government because they want me dead for some *crime*.


I am scared that all of the soldiers that are coming back from Iraq are going to be like Vietnam vets. I know enough about PTSD that it can be dangerous unless treated extensively, and with the way things are going so far in the government, I don''t see it changing or getting better. Everything about the war disturbs me, but seeing PTSD and it''s effects in a day to day setting is beyond comprehension. Those soldiers will never be the same.


I am afraid that now that we are involved in a global community and the world is shrinking, at the same time Americans are Americanizing more and more of it-and thats not a good thing. And, there are Americans who are terrified of the rest of the world or indifferent to it-and they don''t care to change that.


I don''t know that I''m making sense. I need a glass of wine.

You make perfect sense. I''m really worried about this country''s ethnocentrism. We need to put a lot more effort into learning more about other cultures because the world really is shrinking, and so is our power in it.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 6/8/2008 10:11:05 AM
Author: KimberlyH

The trouble is the government has created so many jobs, not just for fat cats in Washington, but for the Dilbertesque office workers that do next to nothing all day because they work for agencies that are doing the same thing four others are in different buildings with the same name, that to streamline now, which is something that must happen for our government to become more efficient and transparent, lots of people would lose their jobs, which would create a whole new slew of problems.


I haven''t had tea yet, so that''s one long sentence and I''m hoping it makes sense.

You made perfect sense, no worries. Yeah, I didn''t even think of the impact of if/when the government does streamline. The unemployment rate will be insane. But seriously, as bad as that would be, it simply is not far to take my money to pay someone to do absolutely nothing.

 

[ksinger]

Date: 6/8/2008 10:11:05 AM
Author: KimberlyH

Date: 6/8/2008 9:44:22 AM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 6/7/2008 8:07:35 PM
Author: KimberlyH
As I have said before I am not affiliated with either political party, but I am opposed to taxes being raised and thought I might shed some light on the mentality DF expressed but did not expand upon.


I would have no problem paying taxes, if the government were both efficient and transparent, but it is neither of those things. I have worked for several governmental agencies, and have many friends and relatives who do as well, so I have had experiences with local, state and federal government and I am sickened by the waste and the ''spend it or lose it'' mantra of government that perpetuates unnecessary spending. It''s not about ''a little taxation'' it''s about government waste, especially in a time when people are struggling to put gas in their cars and food on their tables.


ETA: my belief about government waste extends to both Democrats and Republicans, it is in no way party based as I believe both groups have proved themselves to be irresponsible with taxpayer dollars.

Well I''ll have to agree with you here Kimberly. I understand people who are opposed to higher taxes if their reasoning is the same as yours. What I do not understand are people that don''t ask for efficiency and transparency but just want to pay less. I''ve been complaining for many years, hell, even when I was a teen, about where my tax dollars go. When that highway bridge collapsed in Minneapolis I made this face

. I haven''t followed the story since it broke so someone can feel free to fill me in, but I was wondering what happened to the city''s tax dollars. Wasn''t it meant to maintain the dang roads? Apparently all they had been doing is superficial fixes. That''s crazy to me. So yeah, government transparency is one of the many reasons I''m supporting Obama. There are too many fat cats in Washington living the good life off of my money while our roads fall (among other things) to pieces.

Oh and speaking of government workers. One friend, and this was years ago, she was in college and working for the summer. She worked for an agency that hired her just to spend the money. She spent all day on the work telephone making long distance phone calls and then she''d take like a 3 hour lunch. I remember my blood boiling back then. That''s where my federal tax dollars were going. Another guy, I didn''t know him well, we just chatting occasionally, he up and quit his job with the government because the amount of waste and the lack of work was disturbing to him. He said he just couldn''t take it. I wanted to give him a hug.

The trouble is the government has created so many jobs, not just for fat cats in Washington, but for the Dilbertesque office workers that do next to nothing all day because they work for agencies that are doing the same thing four others are in different buildings with the same name, that to streamline now, which is something that must happen for our government to become more efficient and transparent, lots of people would lose their jobs, which would create a whole new slew of problems.

I haven''t had tea yet, so that''s one long sentence and I''m hoping it makes sense.

In a way, I work for the fed right now. I''m a contractor, but consider myself to be working in the government. That said, I rarely see what you speak of. I see alot of good people working their tails off, while being treated as second-class, expendable employees. (And decent middle managers dealing with the higher level (typically in DC) empire builders'' political aspirations while trying to also accomplish the mission critical activities.) And as one of those expendable folks, I have BEEN laid-off when the project I was on finally shifted to another agency. As the government has narrowed what functions are considered "inherently governmental", and farmed out more and more of the jobs within the government, you see an increasing lack of personal investment in the government on "civil service". That agile streamlining everyone seems to want, comes at the cost of continuity, and that sense of investment in the actual good that our government can and does, do. What happens when you lose a good person due to downsizing, then funding picks back up and you have to re-hire? You have that start-up cost of training and getting up to speed that you have in any industry. I''m not sure that this isn''t more expensive in the long run. I''m not really complaining here, just giving another view from the inside. Privatizing everything has its own set of problems. It is not a pancea. The fed has job pressures that private industry simply does not have to deal with - conflicting and unfunded legislative mandates being the biggest ones I see. Other than the benefits, the draw of a federal job is pretty low, and you see that as the government has more and more trouble recruiting into its ranks. Too much hassle for too little return.

 

[KimberlyH]

Date: 6/8/2008 10:29:34 AM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 6/8/2008 10:11:05 AM
Author: KimberlyH

The trouble is the government has created so many jobs, not just for fat cats in Washington, but for the Dilbertesque office workers that do next to nothing all day because they work for agencies that are doing the same thing four others are in different buildings with the same name, that to streamline now, which is something that must happen for our government to become more efficient and transparent, lots of people would lose their jobs, which would create a whole new slew of problems.


I haven't had tea yet, so that's one long sentence and I'm hoping it makes sense.

You made perfect sense, no worries. Yeah, I didn't even think of the impact of if/when the government does streamline. The unemployment rate will be insane. But seriously, as bad as that would be, it simply is not far to take my money to pay someone to do absolutely nothing.

The amount of money we'd be spending to pay unemployment would be astronomical, and can you imagine the lawsuits that would ensue over pension plans and health insurance?

I love that you say "if/when" I always just assume it won't happen. I'm such a cynic when it comes to our gov't, which is odd considering I'm an optimist otherwise.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 6/8/2008 9:44:10 AM
Author: KimberlyH

I think your spin is valid, but that this conversation is occuring in two threads, because people don''t feel comfortable addressing one another elsewhere, is a pretty good example of why we as a country are in the spot we''re in. People don''t know how to talk to one another. And I''m not so sure that''s about the education system, I was taught to have debates in school, and in the elementary schools I''ve worked in students are made to engage in peaceful conflict resolution, at a base level. I think it''s more about not being able to see beyond ones'' own beliefs, because we''re all biased based on our life experiences and we all want to believe that we know best. Anyways, all that just to say: I think you should start a new thread.

Kimberly I''m addressing you on the above here to continue to respect the other thread.

I always feel comfortable addressing various people with different opinions from my own. I have been doing it since I realized I had my own independent mind (say, the age of 7). I also do it quite often on internet message boards. One thing I''ve noticed here which is different from other places, and (I''m sure people will be offended but really, I can not sugarcoat everything I say without losing it''s importance and meaning)...people get offended extremely quickly. I am not use to sugarcoating my messages unless I am talking to children. I have never experienced so many people claiming to feel insulted in my life, while, at the same time, throwing out insults. I know I''m sarcastic, and that is likely to never leave me. But I find it astounding that people will immediately focus on how they are offended rather than explain how they disagree with an issue. Seriously, I had people defend themselves to me in regard to things I NEVER EVEN SAID OR IMPLIED. I have read, over and over, things I found offensive and instead of going off about it in a complaint, I simply rebutted what was said. I rarely feel the need to defend myself as a person because no one on this board knows me. I feel, if you truly are comfortable in who you are, these slights (many of which I believe are imagined and are used as a way to ignore the real discussion) will roll off your back.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 6/8/2008 10:35:26 AM
Author: KimberlyH
The amount of money we''d be spending to pay unemployment would be astronomical, and can you imagine the lawsuits that would ensue over pension plans and health insurance?


I love that you say ''if/when'' I always just assume it won''t happen. I''m such a cynic when it comes to our gov''t, which is odd considering I''m an optimist otherwise.

Yeah, seems we need to get to work on that outsourcing problem and bringing jobs back into this country. I love this rock and hard place we''re stuck in.

 

[KimberlyH]

Date: 6/8/2008 10:45:46 AM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 6/8/2008 9:44:10 AM
Author: KimberlyH

I think your spin is valid, but that this conversation is occuring in two threads, because people don't feel comfortable addressing one another elsewhere, is a pretty good example of why we as a country are in the spot we're in. People don't know how to talk to one another. And I'm not so sure that's about the education system, I was taught to have debates in school, and in the elementary schools I've worked in students are made to engage in peaceful conflict resolution, at a base level. I think it's more about not being able to see beyond ones' own beliefs, because we're all biased based on our life experiences and we all want to believe that we know best. Anyways, all that just to say: I think you should start a new thread.

Kimberly I'm addressing you on the above here to continue to respect the other thread.

I always feel comfortable addressing various people with different opinions from my own. I have been doing it since I realized I had my own independent mind (say, the age of 7). I also do it quite often on internet message boards. One thing I've noticed here which is different from other places, and (I'm sure people will be offended but really, I can not sugarcoat everything I say without losing it's importance and meaning)...people get offended extremely quickly. I am not use to sugarcoating my messages unless I am talking to children. I have never experienced so many people claiming to feel insulted in my life, while, at the same time, throwing out insults. I know I'm sarcastic, and that is likely to never leave me. But I find it astounding that people will immediately focus on how they are offended rather than explain how they disagree with an issue. Seriously, I had people defend themselves to me in regard to things I NEVER EVEN SAID OR IMPLIED. I have read, over and over, things I found offensive and instead of going off about it in a complaint, I simply rebutted what was said. I rarely feel the need to defend myself as a person because no one on this board knows me. I feel, if you truly are comfortable in who you are, these slights (many of which I believe are imagined and are used as a way to ignore the real discussion) will roll off your back.

Moon,

I have no attachment to either thread, but I understand why you're responding to me here rather than there. I mentioned to you earlier, I think a few days ago, that I appreciate your ability to engage in a dialogue without being offensive or rude, at least you haven't been to me; when I read these threads I'm looking for information, not arguments, so I tend to block out any of the bickering that goes on. My post was not just about PS, it was about people in general not being able to talk to one another. I had a debate with a friends' husband about smoking in public and leash laws, over dinner and drinks at my house, about a month ago. I didn't hear from her for weeks, and then saw them at a BBQ and he was very cold towards me until I teased him about not liking me anymore because I disagreed with him, and then he sorta warmed up to me. Sorta. And I don't think his reaction is uncommon.

In regards to people being easily offended on this website, I think that because PS is, in general, such a kind and considerate message board any time people disagree it's a bit shocking. And I don't think this is just related to politics, any thread where someone tells it like it is (your boyfriend sucks, etc.) there is almost always another member who comes along with a friendly reminder about being kind to one another. I think there's a reason that this section of the website is usually very quiet; people come here for an escape, as a hobby, a place to vent about wedding planning, or to discuss the latest movie, and so when they come across threads about such serious issues it's a bit of a shock, and when a person you've been in cohorts with over how annoying an aunt is being, or something of that sort, and that same person says your political beliefs are a crock (I'm not saying anyone in particular said this, I'm using the word to make a point), it's a bit of a shock. And in general, when you, not you Moon, but the collective you, question someones' political beliefs it usally hits home, hard, because people use these things to define them and identify who they are and what crowd they belong to. And in real life we tend to flock towards those who are similar to us, hold the same values and beliefs, so being confronted with diametrically opposing viewpoints can be very uncomfortable.

 

[ksinger]

Date: 6/7/2008 1:06:14 PM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 6/7/2008 12:50:45 PM
Author: ksinger

Date: 6/7/2008 12:31:05 PM

Author: MoonWater

Karen I agree with you and I think what you''re discussing is different. For example, I''m sure you wouldn''t make a blatant comparison between Bush and Hitler because you would be oversimplifying the issue(s). FI, as he''s reading this book about Totalitarianism finds another creepy parallel among how Jews were treated in Germany and how black people are treated in the US. That would be an extremely long discussion and it would have to be laid out by him. He has a better understanding of this than I do (although I plan to read the book he''s reading once he''s done). Basically, it starts, not with a hatred of a people, but an indifference to a people. As in, it''s not the people with strong racists beliefs, it''s the people that are oblivious to what''s going on around them. It makes it easier for someone to come in and convince you of a people''s flaws/evils/what have you, and convince you that you must turn against them for your own preservation. I think the same can be said for how this Administration has convinced US citizens to allow certain things to occur, you know, for their own protection.



AGBF, good example! I remember USENET and for some reason I feel I remember that rule as well.

Yeah, I do know it''s different. Invoking Hitler without precision is just asking for a fight, the mere name is SO loaded. And Hermann Goering was a devil, but he was no fool and was spot on when he said this:


''Naturally the common people don''t want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in Germany for that matter. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.''


And we watched it happen. Textbook.


The FI wouldn''t be reading Arendt''s ''Origins of Totalitarianism'' by any chance? I just bought it recently, and it''s on my list of ''light summer reading''. Along with finishing ''Bad Money'', ''American Dynasty'', ''The Trillion Dollar Meltdown'', ''The Age of American Unreason'', and ''American Fascists''. Obviously, I''m hardly over-booked.

(har)

LOL oh Karen. See, you remind me of my FI a lot. You have an enormous amount of knowledge loaded into your brain and you can back up any claim you make with FACTUAL EVIDENCE. First, spot on with that quote. I swear I''ve read it before or something similar and it amazes me how people don''t realize they are being manipulated. Second, yes! That is indeed the book he is reading. Chances are you''ll beat me to it so tell me what you think.

Wow. I just now read this. (In my zeal to NOT post anything to fan the flames I''ve skipped some stuff apparently) Coming from you Moon that means alot. Really. I absolutely respect your intellect and the substance of your posts, and have learned loads from you. As one of the "emotional" type folks I even respect you slapping me back to reason, and back to the point when necessary.

You help me hone my thoughts, and that is a pearl of great price to me.

And egghead that I am, I did actually go out and do some research on that quote''s attribution, it IS true. In one of my many quote files, (

even a bigger geek) I have the background on it. Apparently Goering said it to his lawyer? while on in jail and on trial in Nuremberg.

I doubt I''ll beat you to that book though. It''s a monster by all accounts, and I tend to jump around. Much like diamonds, with books I see the next interesting title and go "Oooo!!!! Priiiiiiiity!!!" and then I''m off. LOL!

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 6/8/2008 11:29:54 AM
Author: KimberlyH

Date: 6/8/2008 10:45:46 AM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 6/8/2008 9:44:10 AM
Author: KimberlyH
I think your spin is valid, but that this conversation is occuring in two threads, because people don't feel comfortable addressing one another elsewhere, is a pretty good example of why we as a country are in the spot we're in. People don't know how to talk to one another. And I'm not so sure that's about the education system, I was taught to have debates in school, and in the elementary schools I've worked in students are made to engage in peaceful conflict resolution, at a base level. I think it's more about not being able to see beyond ones' own beliefs, because we're all biased based on our life experiences and we all want to believe that we know best. Anyways, all that just to say: I think you should start a new thread.

Kimberly I'm addressing you on the above here to continue to respect the other thread.

I always feel comfortable addressing various people with different opinions from my own. I have been doing it since I realized I had my own independent mind (say, the age of 7). I also do it quite often on internet message boards. One thing I've noticed here which is different from other places, and (I'm sure people will be offended but really, I can not sugarcoat everything I say without losing it's importance and meaning)...people get offended extremely quickly. I am not use to sugarcoating my messages unless I am talking to children. I have never experienced so many people claiming to feel insulted in my life, while, at the same time, throwing out insults. I know I'm sarcastic, and that is likely to never leave me. But I find it astounding that people will immediately focus on how they are offended rather than explain how they disagree with an issue. Seriously, I had people defend themselves to me in regard to things I NEVER EVEN SAID OR IMPLIED. I have read, over and over, things I found offensive and instead of going off about it in a complaint, I simply rebutted what was said. I rarely feel the need to defend myself as a person because no one on this board knows me. I feel, if you truly are comfortable in who you are, these slights (many of which I believe are imagined and are used as a way to ignore the real discussion) will roll off your back.

Moon,

I have no attachment to either thread, but I understand why you're responding to me here rather than there. I mentioned to you earlier, I think a few days ago, that I appreciate your ability to engage in a dialogue without being offensive or rude, at least you haven't been to me; when I read these threads I'm looking for information, not arguments, so I tend to block out any of the bickering that goes on. My post was not just about PS, it was about people in general not being able to talk to one another. I had a debate with a friends' husband about smoking in public and leash laws, over dinner and drinks at my house, about a month ago. I didn't hear from her for weeks, and then saw them at a BBQ and he was very cold towards me until I teased him about not liking me anymore because I disagreed with him, and then he sorta warmed up to me. Sorta. And I don't think his reaction is uncommon.

In regards to people being easily offended on this website, I think that because PS is, in general, such a kind and considerate message board any time people disagree it's a bit shocking. And I don't think this is just related to politics, any thread where someone tells it like it is (your boyfriend sucks, etc.) there is almost always another member who comes along with a friendly reminder about being kind to one another. I think there's a reason that this section of the website is usually very quiet; people come here for an escape, as a hobby, a place to vent about wedding planning, or to discuss the latest movie, and so when they come across threads about such serious issues it's a bit of a shock, and when a person you've been in cohorts with over how annoying an aunt is being, or something of that sort, and that same person says your political beliefs are a crock (I'm not saying anyone in particular said this, I'm using the word to make a point), it's a bit of a shock. And in general, when you, not you Moon, but the collective you, question someones' political beliefs it usally hits home, hard, because people use these things to define them and identify who they are and what crowd they belong to. And in real life we tend to flock towards those who are similar to us, hold the same values and beliefs, so being confronted with diametrically opposing viewpoints can be very uncomfortable.

I want to say that I completely agree with both of you. I spent a lot of time thinking about this last night and came to the conclusion that when politics and any other hot topics are being discussed you have to do a some things to maintain some kind of logical mindset instead of flying off the handle, or bullying people around. Here's my list:
-realize that their viewpoint is different and that doesn't make it BAD
-think before you speak
-take everything with a grain of salt or a spoonful of sugar
-remember that their viewpoint is different
-respect the person always, even if you don't like what they have to say
-if you start to feel emotional about the topic, take time away from it
-respect the person's values
-keep a sense of humor (EVEN if it means cracking some jokes)
-reread your posts from the other person's point of view
-don't get a mob mentality
-respect, respect, respect.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 6/8/2008 11:29:54 AM
Author: KimberlyH

Moon,

I have no attachment to either thread, but I understand why you''re responding to me here rather than there. I mentioned to you earlier, I think a few days ago, that I appreciate your ability to engage in a dialogue without being offensive or rude, at least you haven''t been to me; when I read these threads I''m looking for information, not arguments, so I tend to block out any of the bickering that goes on. My post was not just about PS, it was about people in general not being able to talk to one another. I had a debate with a friends'' husband about smoking in public and leash laws, over dinner and drinks at my house, about a month ago. I didn''t hear from her for weeks, and then saw them at a BBQ and he was very cold towards me until I teased him about not liking me anymore because I disagreed with him, and then he sorta warmed up to me. Sorta. And I don''t think his reaction is uncommon.

In regards to people being easily offended on this website, I think that because PS is, in general, such a kind and considerate message board any time people disagree it''s a bit shocking. And I don''t think this is just related to politics, any thread where someone tells it like it is (your boyfriend sucks, etc.) there is almost always another member who comes along with a friendly reminder about being kind to one another. I think there''s a reason that this section of the website is usually very quiet; people come here for an escape, as a hobby, a place to vent about wedding planning, or to discuss the latest movie, and so when they come across threads about such serious issues it''s a bit of a shock, and when a person you''ve been in cohorts with over how annoying an aunt is being, or something of that sort, and that same person says your political beliefs are a crock (I''m not saying anyone in particular said this, I''m using the word to make a point), it''s a bit of a shock. And in general, when you, not you Moon, but the collective you, question someones'' political beliefs it usally hits home, hard, because people use these things to define them and identify who they are and what crowd they belong to. And in real life we tend to flock towards those who are similar to us, hold the same values and beliefs, so being confronted with diametrically opposing viewpoints can be very uncomfortable.

Kimberly, thanks for your thoughtful reply.

I think you are right in general about everything you said and it''s definitely understandable. However, I will always have a problem with people that look for the tinest slight and completely focus on that instead of the issue at hand. I enjoy Philosophy and Law, (so maybe that''s my problem), and I can not respond to a post and completely ignore the point being made. As I''m sure you can tell from skimming my posts, I will even break down a person''s post, point by point, in order to make sure I don''t miss anything. A pet peeve of mine is when people flat out ignore the issue/question when they respond. After a while it becomes frustrating and that''s when people start complaining, (to me at least), about insults or what have you. It''s like a red herring. I just want a simple answer to what I''ve said, not a rant on what you found offensive in my post. Most especially since I don''t spend my time nitpicking everything I find personally offensive.

As far as the situation with your friend''s husband, that''s funny. I have that problem with people too, usually with people I don''t know very well. I personally think it''s a frail ego thing because I let that stuff roll off my back, no matter how much I disagree (unless it''s an attack on me as a person and sometimes even then I don''t care), and just move on. But people hold grudges. Fortunately I''ve had many debates with people in online forums and once it was over, we could move on to another topic and talk as usual. It doesn''t always work out that well though, especially in real life situations. But I''m use to having heated political discussions with friends and family and when it''s over, it''s over. No one ever agreed on anything, but no one is giving each other the evil eye either lol. I guess I just really don''t understand people getting bent out of shape over strangers.

 

[AGBF]

Karen,

This is just a side note and asked purely out of personal curiosity. You wrote that you are working for, "the fed", but are a contractor. To me, "The Fed" is the Federal Reserve Board and I don''t think it hires any contractors. Did you mean you are working for the federal government?

Deborah

 

[KimberlyH]

Date: 6/10/2008 11:46:05 AM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 6/8/2008 11:29:54 AM
Author: KimberlyH

Moon,

I have no attachment to either thread, but I understand why you're responding to me here rather than there. I mentioned to you earlier, I think a few days ago, that I appreciate your ability to engage in a dialogue without being offensive or rude, at least you haven't been to me; when I read these threads I'm looking for information, not arguments, so I tend to block out any of the bickering that goes on. My post was not just about PS, it was about people in general not being able to talk to one another. I had a debate with a friends' husband about smoking in public and leash laws, over dinner and drinks at my house, about a month ago. I didn't hear from her for weeks, and then saw them at a BBQ and he was very cold towards me until I teased him about not liking me anymore because I disagreed with him, and then he sorta warmed up to me. Sorta. And I don't think his reaction is uncommon.

In regards to people being easily offended on this website, I think that because PS is, in general, such a kind and considerate message board any time people disagree it's a bit shocking. And I don't think this is just related to politics, any thread where someone tells it like it is (your boyfriend sucks, etc.) there is almost always another member who comes along with a friendly reminder about being kind to one another. I think there's a reason that this section of the website is usually very quiet; people come here for an escape, as a hobby, a place to vent about wedding planning, or to discuss the latest movie, and so when they come across threads about such serious issues it's a bit of a shock, and when a person you've been in cohorts with over how annoying an aunt is being, or something of that sort, and that same person says your political beliefs are a crock (I'm not saying anyone in particular said this, I'm using the word to make a point), it's a bit of a shock. And in general, when you, not you Moon, but the collective you, question someones' political beliefs it usally hits home, hard, because people use these things to define them and identify who they are and what crowd they belong to. And in real life we tend to flock towards those who are similar to us, hold the same values and beliefs, so being confronted with diametrically opposing viewpoints can be very uncomfortable.

Kimberly, thanks for your thoughtful reply.

I think you are right in general about everything you said and it's definitely understandable. However, I will always have a problem with people that look for the tinest slight and completely focus on that instead of the issue at hand. I enjoy Philosophy and Law, (so maybe that's my problem), and I can not respond to a post and completely ignore the point being made. As I'm sure you can tell from skimming my posts, I will even break down a person's post, point by point, in order to make sure I don't miss anything. A pet peeve of mine is when people flat out ignore the issue/question when they respond. After a while it becomes frustrating and that's when people start complaining, (to me at least), about insults or what have you. It's like a red herring. I just want a simple answer to what I've said, not a rant on what you found offensive in my post. Most especially since I don't spend my time nitpicking everything I find personally offensive.

As far as the situation with your friend's husband, that's funny. I have that problem with people too, usually with people I don't know very well. I personally think it's a frail ego thing because I let that stuff roll off my back, no matter how much I disagree (unless it's an attack on me as a person and sometimes even then I don't care), and just move on. But people hold grudges. Fortunately I've had many debates with people in online forums and once it was over, we could move on to another topic and talk as usual. It doesn't always work out that well though, especially in real life situations. But I'm use to having heated political discussions with friends and family and when it's over, it's over. No one ever agreed on anything, but no one is giving each other the evil eye either lol. I guess I just really don't understand people getting bent out of shape over strangers.

I understand your frustration. It's hard to discuss political issues because people with opposing viewpoints want to hear why not just "I think X", and politics are so emotionally driven that sometimes people struggle to put their beliefs into words.

The husband I mentioned knows me reasonably well, I think he's just used to me taking a backseat when it comes to discussing such issues, because I like to listen and learn. I jumped in because my husband and I had had a similar debate over smoking in public, where I actually had taken the same point-of-view as B, and I learned a lot from what my husband had said, so I was arguing his stance in hopes that I would shed some light for B as to why people feel the opposite as he does. My husband cracked up when they left because of what I had done.

As for people getting bent out of shape, sometimes its hard to be nice to people that you can't understand, but hopefully it won't change the need for kindness and respect because we can't truly hear what others are saying when we argue instead of talking.

 

[luckystar112]

Date: 6/10/2008 11:46:05 AM
Author: MoonWater

Kimberly, thanks for your thoughtful reply.

I think you are right in general about everything you said and it's definitely understandable. However, I will always have a problem with people that look for the tinest slight and completely focus on that instead of the issue at hand. I enjoy Philosophy and Law, (so maybe that's my problem), and I can not respond to a post and completely ignore the point being made. As I'm sure you can tell from skimming my posts, I will even break down a person's post, point by point, in order to make sure I don't miss anything. A pet peeve of mine is when people flat out ignore the issue/question when they respond. After a while it becomes frustrating and that's when people start complaining, (to me at least), about insults or what have you. It's like a red herring. I just want a simple answer to what I've said, not a rant on what you found offensive in my post. Most especially since I don't spend my time nitpicking everything I find personally offensive.

As far as the situation with your friend's husband, that's funny. I have that problem with people too, usually with people I don't know very well. I personally think it's a frail ego thing because I let that stuff roll off my back, no matter how much I disagree (unless it's an attack on me as a person and sometimes even then I don't care), and just move on. But people hold grudges. Fortunately I've had many debates with people in online forums and once it was over, we could move on to another topic and talk as usual. It doesn't always work out that well though, especially in real life situations. But I'm use to having heated political discussions with friends and family and when it's over, it's over. No one ever agreed on anything, but no one is giving each other the evil eye either lol. I guess I just really don't understand people getting bent out of shape over strangers.

Hi Moon.

I'm sorry to interrupt your conversation that probably has absolutely nothing to do with me, but I was wondering if you could please grow up or direct your posts TO ME instead of continuing on with this amazingly ridiculous rant of yours? I mean, since things "roll off your back" so easily and all.

Just a thought. Move on, honey.