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will Obama be a good President?

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MoonWater

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Date: 6/6/2008 12:37:41 PM
Author: luckystar112

Date: 6/6/2008 12:15:13 PM
Author: MoonWater

I feel really bad for the next President no matter who it may be. They are inheriting a really screwed up country and I highly doubt they will be able to fully turn it around in two terms, let alone one. Chances are high that the stupid American public will blame them for not being able to solve all of their problems.
More later...since I have to go to work, but I just want to say that I completely agree with you on this!
But it''s also why I don''t understand the Obama-love. I would think that Hillary would at least be better at getting the country on track.
Do you remember the Clinton Administration? I can''t claim I saw all these things as they happened, but when you research you realize how they pissed off a lot of Democrats with their actions. It truly is harder for me to take Hillary at her word than any one else in the game, including McCain. I don''t trust that she will do what she says unless it in someway benefits the Clintons.

Here is another thing. The President is but one person, it''s not like they are doing all of the work themselves. I''m sure Obama, if he doesn''t make Clinton VP (eww yuk, gross lol), will bring her into his cabinet to work on the things she''s best at. In the end, you have to pick the person who''s judgment you trust more. I happen to believe that Obama is intelligent enough, and experienced enough to select the best qualified people to help him accomplish the things he''s promised. I also believe, and this is partially due to his age, that he is not so immersed in the game as to harbor deep negative feelings for the people (of either party) or have them harbor deep negative feelings for him. Sometimes, it''s good to be green.
 

Selkie

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Thanks for posting that, Moon. Very informative. I think it''s time for me to get The Audacity of Hope.
 

ksinger

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Date: 6/6/2008 1:16:23 PM
Author: MoonWater
For those that want to learn more about Obama''s upbringing and background: http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/06/04/f-obama-biography.html
Thanks Moon! Great piece, and it pretty much puts to rest any claims that he''s all flash and no substance. Unlike the Clintons, Bushes and McCains of the world, he''s really lived the life of an ordinary person, and been pretty extraordinary doing it.
 

LAJennifer

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Date: 6/6/2008 12:51:38 PM
Author: MoonWater

Do you remember the Clinton Administration? I can''t claim I saw all these things as they happened, but when you research you realize how they pissed off a lot of Democrats with their actions. It truly is harder for me to take Hillary at her word than any one else in the game, including McCain. I don''t trust that she will do what she says unless it in someway benefits the Clintons.

Here is another thing. The President is but one person, it''s not like they are doing all of the work themselves. I''m sure Obama, if he doesn''t make Clinton VP (eww yuk, gross lol), will bring her into his cabinet to work on the things she''s best at. In the end, you have to pick the person who''s judgment you trust more. I happen to believe that Obama is intelligent enough, and experienced enough to select the best qualified people to help him accomplish the things he''s promised. I also believe, and this is partially due to his age, that he is not so immersed in the game as to harbor deep negative feelings for the people (of either party) or have them harbor deep negative feelings for him. Sometimes, it''s good to be green.
I Just wanted to point out that I believe that this is definitely one of his strengths. Very good point, Moon.
 

surfgirl

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I am indeed disgusted to see anyone make even the most remote of "comparisons" between Barak Obama and Hitler. And the use of cutsie emoticons when continuing to refer to such a heinous person.
 

luckystar112

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I sat here for about 5 minutes asking myself if I should even dignify that with a response. But I have to.

Read into it all you want, but my POINT was that speech isn't everything--so when people are asked why they like Obama and all they can say is "he's such a great speaker", it worries me.
Perhaps I should clarify--the only thing that I think Hitler and Obama have in common is their capability to captivate an audience. I have no hidden agenda.

If I was looking to get dirty, which I'm not, I would have brought up Farrakahan and others. I haven't.

Also, while I'm here....I would like to say that in my previous post I was not judging Obama based on his supporters, I was judging his supporters alone (at least some of them). I wouldn't base my decision on someone's supporters.

I knew when I said the "H" word people were going to focus on THAT and not the point. Anything to defer from the argument I guess.
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<--cutesy emoticon just because!
 

luckystar112

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Okay I guess I''m not done yet.

I also wanted to say that I know it''s BOTH sides...a lot of politicians hang around with shady people, and there are bad voters everywhere that will vote republican or democrat no matter WHO the candidate is. It''s crappy, but true.
 

FrekeChild

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Date: 6/6/2008 10:47:07 PM
Author: luckystar112
I also wanted to say that I know it''s BOTH sides...a lot of politicians hang around with shady people, and there are bad voters everywhere that will vote republican or democrat no matter WHO the candidate is. It''s crappy, but true.
I think the shadiness is sometimes subjective. Having said that, I think all politicians hang out with shady people. At least, to someone they are shady.

But people who take the time to register to vote, and then don''t take an hour during election time to research the candidates-that bothers me. I registered the day I turned 18-but I knew about the issues-while most every other high school student who registered was voting with their parents. There are a few issues that are near and dear and close to my heart, and I won''t vote for someone who is against those issues. So I vote for the person whose issues align the closest with mine, as I think people should.

So people who vote Dem/Repub/Indep/Green just because that''s what they are, that bothers me. And I already said that people who vote for politicians just because a celebrity said so, totally freaks me out.

Sorry, I just felt the need to comment and agree.
 

MoonWater

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Date: 6/6/2008 10:21:13 PM
Author: luckystar112
I sat here for about 5 minutes asking myself if I should even dignify that with a response. But I have to.


Read into it all you want, but my POINT was that speech isn't everything--so when people are asked why they like Obama and all they can say is 'he's such a great speaker', it worries me.

Perhaps I should clarify--the only thing that I think Hitler and Obama have in common is their capability to captivate an audience. I have no hidden agenda.


If I was looking to get dirty, which I'm not, I would have brought up Farrakahan and others. I haven't.


Also, while I'm here....I would like to say that in my previous post I was not judging Obama based on his supporters, I was judging his supporters alone (at least some of them). I wouldn't base my decision on someone's supporters.


I knew when I said the 'H' word people were going to focus on THAT and not the point. Anything to defer from the argument I guess.
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<--cutesy emoticon just because!

lucky, I think you're a nice person and everything but the above is a lie. You said you couldn't help but think Obama was an empty suit and then compared him to Hitler. That was NOT judging only his supporters, that was judging him BASED on his supporters. Something I thoroughly rebuked. Incidentally, I mentioned my annoyance at even bringing Hitler up in regard to this conversation to my FI and he laughed at me. He said, and I'll paraphrase, 'Have you heard of the Hitler standard? It says you can judge the depth of a conversation by how long it takes someone to make a Hitler comparison.' Seriously, people use him as a comparison far too often and it seems most of these people do not know the full history of the situation (beyond the Holocaust) and do not know or understand the nuances of how he amassed so much power. My FI thinks any comparison to him, without that knowledge, is absolutely ludicrous. I can't help but agree and I find it more offensive than any joke about McCain soiling his pants.
 

AGBF

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Date:
6/7/2008 9:11:54 AM

Author:
MoonWater


Incidentally, I mentioned my annoyance at even bringing Hitler up in regard to this conversation to my FI and he laughed at me. He said, and I'll paraphrase, 'Have you heard of the Hitler standard? It says you can judge the depth of a conversation by how long it takes someone to make a Hitler comparison.'

A variant of this, and one I almost mentioned when I first read the allusion to Hitler used to prevail on USENET. Back in the old days (not the ancient days) when people discussed topics by going to USENET groups, one of the rules was that the first poster to mention Hitler lost the argument ;-).

Deb
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ksinger

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Date: 6/7/2008 10:49:41 AM
Author: AGBF








Date:
6/7/2008 9:11:54 AM

Author:
MoonWater


Incidentally, I mentioned my annoyance at even bringing Hitler up in regard to this conversation to my FI and he laughed at me. He said, and I'll paraphrase, 'Have you heard of the Hitler standard? It says you can judge the depth of a conversation by how long it takes someone to make a Hitler comparison.'

A variant of this, and one I almost mentioned when I first read the allusion to Hitler used to prevail on USENET. Back in the old days (not the ancient days) when people discussed topics by going to USENET groups, one of the rules was that the first poster to mention Hitler lost the argument ;-).

Deb
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While I agree that comparing any individual in this or any race, to Hitler, is probably not the best idea, at least not without absolute precision regarding how the comparison is being made, still, there are disturbing parallels happening today, to things that happened in Germany in Hitler's rise to power. The one that comes to mind is the granting of sweeping powers to Hitler under an emergency act, and the subsequent suspension of civil liberties and habeas corpus rights. Sound even vaguely familiar? To say these parallels are either not there, or insignificant, is to me, to be in denial to the point that if more happened, if more rights are lost, then we may very well not see the danger until the point of no return is passed. I see these parallels as the canaries in the coal mine. We ARE in danger. Maybe not from Bush or McCain or Obama as individuals, but from a mindset that will happily hand away our rights in the name of security. We all want desperately to believe that the people we have granted power have our best interests at heart. History shows us differently. The government should always fear US, the people, not the other way around.
 

MoonWater

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Karen I agree with you and I think what you're discussing is different. For example, I'm sure you wouldn't make a blatant comparison between Bush and Hitler because you would be oversimplifying the issue(s). FI, as he's reading this book about Totalitarianism finds another creepy parallel among how Jews were treated in Germany and how black people are treated in the US. That would be an extremely long discussion and it would have to be laid out by him. He has a better understanding of this than I do (although I plan to read the book he's reading once he's done). Basically, it starts, not with a hatred of a people, but an indifference to a people. As in, it's not the people with strong racists beliefs, it's the people that are oblivious to what's going on around them. It makes it easier for someone to come in and convince you of a people's flaws/evils/what have you, and convince you that you must turn against them for your own preservation. I think the same can be said for how this Administration has convinced US citizens to allow certain things to occur, you know, for their own protection.

AGBF, good example! I remember USENET and for some reason I feel I remember that rule as well.
 

luckystar112

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I really don''t appreciate being called a liar.
I mean, I really don''t get it. Are you trying to say that I think Obama and Hitler are one in the same? I''m sorry if someone finds it offensive, that wasn''t the point. I was trying to point out the ridiculousness of choosing a candidate based on their speech. Like someone saying that their dream car is the Ford Pinto because it''s "pretty". Or choosing a husband becuase they like the way their names sound together. It doesn''t make sense. You may not be getting what you want. But because I used the name "Hitler", I should be stoned to death. And really, I''m pretty damn insulted that people are trying to paint me into a person I''m not. I can''t tell if you really feel that way or if you''re looking for any excuse to discredit my opinion.

You are the ones that are choosing not to "hear" what I''m really saying. The fricken POINT is that Hitler is an awful person. I guess I should apologize that it was taken the wrong way, but I don''t feel like I should have to since I clearly stated in the original post that I didn''t mean it that way. I should have known better.

Now, run along and make a post about how since I''m now defensive I must be guilty.
 

ksinger

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Date: 6/7/2008 12:31:05 PM
Author: MoonWater
Karen I agree with you and I think what you're discussing is different. For example, I'm sure you wouldn't make a blatant comparison between Bush and Hitler because you would be oversimplifying the issue(s). FI, as he's reading this book about Totalitarianism finds another creepy parallel among how Jews were treated in Germany and how black people are treated in the US. That would be an extremely long discussion and it would have to be laid out by him. He has a better understanding of this than I do (although I plan to read the book he's reading once he's done). Basically, it starts, not with a hatred of a people, but an indifference to a people. As in, it's not the people with strong racists beliefs, it's the people that are oblivious to what's going on around them. It makes it easier for someone to come in and convince you of a people's flaws/evils/what have you, and convince you that you must turn against them for your own preservation. I think the same can be said for how this Administration has convinced US citizens to allow certain things to occur, you know, for their own protection.

AGBF, good example! I remember USENET and for some reason I feel I remember that rule as well.
Yeah, I do know it's different. Invoking Hitler without precision is just asking for a fight, the mere name is SO loaded. And Hermann Goering was a devil, but he was no fool and was spot on when he said this:

"Naturally the common people don't want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in Germany for that matter. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country."

And we watched it happen. Textbook.

The FI wouldn't be reading Arendt's "Origins of Totalitarianism" by any chance? I just bought it recently, and it's on my list of "light summer reading". Along with finishing "Bad Money", "American Dynasty", "The Trillion Dollar Meltdown", "The Age of American Unreason", and "American Fascists". Obviously, I'm hardly over-booked.
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(har)
 

MoonWater

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Date: 6/7/2008 12:49:13 PM
Author: luckystar112
I really don't appreciate being called a liar.

I mean, I really don't get it. Are you trying to say that I think Obama and Hitler are one in the same? I'm sorry if someone finds it offensive, that wasn't the point. I was trying to point out the ridiculousness of choosing a candidate based on their speech. Like someone saying that their dream car is the Ford Pinto because it's 'pretty'. Or choosing a husband becuase they like the way their names sound together. It doesn't make sense. You may not be getting what you want. But because I used the name 'Hitler', I should be stoned to death. And really, I'm pretty damn insulted that people are trying to paint me into a person I'm not. I can't tell if you really feel that way or if you're looking for any excuse to discredit my opinion.


You are the ones that are choosing not to 'hear' what I'm really saying. The fricken POINT is that Hitler is an awful person. I guess I should apologize that it was taken the wrong way, but I don't feel like I should have to since I clearly stated in the original post that I didn't mean it that way. I should have known better.


Now, run along and make a post about how since I'm now defensive I must be guilty.

I started to edit out the word lie because I figured it would get this response. However, the word was used appropriately. I should have been more sensitive and said what you claimed in that post was "inaccurate." Perhaps you didn't meant what you said originally but you clearly said it which is why I had a problem with the Hitler comparison in the first place. You were NOT judging Obama supporters "alone" as you said...this is what you wrote:

I agree with the "empty suit" comment about Obama. The man can speak, but the speech doesn't necessarily make the man.

Considering his accomplishments, the empty suit comment is absurd but then you went on to say in response to some of his ignorant supporters...

Okay...but what has he done? "He's the best orator of our time!" Really? Cause if you ask people, Hitler was a great orator (I'm NOT comparing the two, just saying...) Know what I mean? Probably not...oh well. lol. He's a beautiful public speaker, but that's about all I can say about him.

In light of the information provided by many Obama supporters on this forum, I think it's a shame that you still don't think he's good at anything but speaking and seem to base your opinion of him, whether you want to or not, on his most ignorant supporters. The Hitler comparison (fyi, claiming to not be making a comparison in the process of comparing does not negate the comparison being made) simply makes no sense in conjunction with the belief that Obama is an empty suit. I pointed out another great speaker no one would dare compare Hitler to and you said...

Sure, MLK and Obama are both great speakers, but MLK backed it up. He had a track record. He gained respect through action as well as words.

Which again, implies, that Obama has accomplished nothing and is just an ...empty suit. In light of this claim of all talk, no action, Hitler was one of the worse examples you could come up with. Hitler accomplished a lot. Oh yeah, I KNOW Hitler is an awful person, that's why people shouldn't make light comparisons to him! Nor should they be shocked that anyone would be offended by such comparisons.

This is the written word, it can easily be reviewed so that you don't make contradictory claims later.
 

MoonWater

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Date: 6/7/2008 12:50:45 PM
Author: ksinger
Date: 6/7/2008 12:31:05 PM

Author: MoonWater

Karen I agree with you and I think what you''re discussing is different. For example, I''m sure you wouldn''t make a blatant comparison between Bush and Hitler because you would be oversimplifying the issue(s). FI, as he''s reading this book about Totalitarianism finds another creepy parallel among how Jews were treated in Germany and how black people are treated in the US. That would be an extremely long discussion and it would have to be laid out by him. He has a better understanding of this than I do (although I plan to read the book he''s reading once he''s done). Basically, it starts, not with a hatred of a people, but an indifference to a people. As in, it''s not the people with strong racists beliefs, it''s the people that are oblivious to what''s going on around them. It makes it easier for someone to come in and convince you of a people''s flaws/evils/what have you, and convince you that you must turn against them for your own preservation. I think the same can be said for how this Administration has convinced US citizens to allow certain things to occur, you know, for their own protection.



AGBF, good example! I remember USENET and for some reason I feel I remember that rule as well.
Yeah, I do know it''s different. Invoking Hitler without precision is just asking for a fight, the mere name is SO loaded. And Hermann Goering was a devil, but he was no fool and was spot on when he said this:


''Naturally the common people don''t want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in Germany for that matter. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.''


And we watched it happen. Textbook.


The FI wouldn''t be reading Arendt''s ''Origins of Totalitarianism'' by any chance? I just bought it recently, and it''s on my list of ''light summer reading''. Along with finishing ''Bad Money'', ''American Dynasty'', ''The Trillion Dollar Meltdown'', ''The Age of American Unreason'', and ''American Fascists''. Obviously, I''m hardly over-booked.
20.gif
(har)

LOL oh Karen. See, you remind me of my FI a lot. You have an enormous amount of knowledge loaded into your brain and you can back up any claim you make with FACTUAL EVIDENCE. First, spot on with that quote. I swear I''ve read it before or something similar and it amazes me how people don''t realize they are being manipulated. Second, yes! That is indeed the book he is reading. Chances are you''ll beat me to it so tell me what you think.
 

luckystar112

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I think it''s impossible for you to post something without throwing in an insult.

You''re pulling from a bunch of different posts. I know I wrote "what did he DO" in my post, but you''re assuming I meant it to imply that he hasn''t accomplished anything. That''s not it at all. I think some of his supporters know nothing about him and are choosing him strictly because he''s popular. Most of what I''ve learned about Obama has been from the supporters on this thread, not people in my real life. So it irritates me to no end to try to find out why someone supports Obama and to find out they don''t know a single thing about him.

With that being said, I guess that people have different definitions of an "empty suit", or perhaps I used it in the wrong context. The MAIN reason I will not be voting for Obama, first and foremost, is because we disagree on social issues. And those social issues are what identify me as Republican rather than Democrat (and because I just have a "personal responsibility" mentality when it comes to a lot of "problems" in the United States). The first priority for some people is the economy, for others it''s health care, for some it''s the war in Iraq...mine is social issues. I think all of those are important, and I''m not getting a clear picture of what his plans are, and I know others feel the same way. Then again, it doesn''t matter to ME, because I''ve already made my decision. I''ve ALREADY judged Obama, so my judgement of voters (and I know this has been mostly about Obama but you could apply everything I''ve said to all voters in general) has no bearing on my opinion of him.

As for the Hitler thing, I am DONE. I''m not addressing it anymore. And if surfgirl or someone else wants to come on here drag it on further instead of letting it die, I''m going to respectfully ask that Andre remove it. So I''d appreciate it if we could move on from that. Thanks.
 

luckystar112

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style="WIDTH: 99%; HEIGHT: 68px">Date: 6/7/2008 1:06:14 PM
Author: MoonWater


See, you remind me of my FI a lot. You have an enormous amount of knowledge loaded into your brain and you can back up any claim you make with FACTUAL EVIDENCE.
Another insult to the rest of us.....YIPPEE!!!!!
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MoonWater

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First, only the last quote from you was from another post. The first two were within the same post. Please start re-reading what you've written before correcting me on a point.

Second, be aware of your own insults before you complain about mine. Why don't you address the black vote topic. I'm still waiting.

Last, I find it amusing that you take my compliment of Karen as an individual as an insult to "the rest of us" considering there are many others in this thread (and the Obama speech thread) who's contributions I thought were absolutely excellent and contain plenty of factual evidence. I was actually referring to the specific things Karen commonly discusses and her method of retort. She backs it up much in the same way as my FI, and dare I say, myself. But feel free to keep feeling insulted.

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luckystar112

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I also wanted to say that in an old forum I was a part of back in 2003, my signature said "McCain 08". So my decision has been made for a while, which is also why I haven''t been participating in this section. The only other candidates that I have paid any attention to are Huckabee and Clinton. Obama was never an option for me. Well, nor was Hillary really...but I appreciate her dedication to healthcare. Also, I never checked out the Obama speech thread, I''ll have to do it now. But I was at the gym when I got news that he was leaving his church, and I did chuckle out loud.
 

luckystar112

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Date: 6/7/2008 1:34:26 PM
Author: MoonWater


Why don''t you address the black vote topic. I''m still waiting.

How is that insulting? Was I wrong in mentioning that Obama has the overwhelming majority of the black vote, sometimes 91% in certain states? Are you going to tell me I''m racist now because I find that fascinating?
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I read an article saying that 80% of black voters are going to vote democratic, whoever the candidate is. I''ll see if I can find it.

But if you''re taking it as an insult to African Americans, first of all, I''d never do that. Second of all, I don''t appreciate it, and third of all MOST groups vote together like that. I just thought that this election was fascinating, and so it''d be silly not to think it had a little to do with being proud that a black man has made it this far.

 

luckystar112

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Moonwater...before I go (I have to go to a wedding).
Hopefully we can just agree to disagree. It looks like we''ve BOTH made assumptions and unknowingly
said some things that stung the other.
I am very sorry if you were offended by the black vote comment, I wasn''t intentionally trying to be insulting
and would never have posted it if I thought it was going to be taken the wrong way.
Can we start over (again? lol).
 

coatimundi_org

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A good book. (this has probably already been mentioned.)

The End of America by Naomi Wolf.

We have been experiencing the systematic depletion of our rights. Like Karen said,(many dittos here) it''s not to be attributed to one individual in this country. It''s simply the result of greed, fear, and complacency.

Another good book.

The Insect Societies by Edward O. Wilson.

I suppose living within a grand pyramid scheme is unavoidable.
 

MoonWater

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Date: 6/7/2008 1:59:43 PM
Author: luckystar112
Date: 6/7/2008 1:34:26 PM

Author: MoonWater



Why don't you address the black vote topic. I'm still waiting.



How is that insulting? Was I wrong in mentioning that Obama has the overwhelming majority of the black vote, sometimes 91% in certain states? Are you going to tell me I'm racist now because I find that fascinating?
20.gif



I read an article saying that 80% of black voters are going to vote democratic, whoever the candidate is. I'll see if I can find it.

But if you're taking it as an insult to African Americans, first of all, I'd never do that. Second of all, I don't appreciate it, and third of all MOST groups vote together like that. I just thought that this election was fascinating, and so it'd be silly not to think it had a little to do with being proud that a black man has made it this far.


I think it would be wise from here on out if you stopped trying to predict what my response will be to you. No, I'm not trying to tell you that you're a racist. But let me refresh your memory on what you said and what it implies (btw, I already know that the majority of AAs vote Democrat and it in no way relates to what you insinuated). You said:

And I think a lot of younger people ARE influenced by what the media tells them, and right now the media is telling them that Obama is "cool". I totally think that voters can be influenced by things other than his record and where he stands on issues. I don't think it's a coincidence that he has won 90% of that black vote.

Now, I'm willing to give you the opportunity to explain to me what you meant by reporting the percentage of the black vote that Obama got. Because when I read it, it implies that he got that percentage because he is also black. I believe that is insulting to the black population in this country. Certainly SOME people vote for idiotic reasons such as race and gender, but to put that out there was unnecessary in light of the many reasons I laid out for you. Which I will provide here:

Bill Clinton got 83% of the black vote in 1992 and 84% in 1996. So I'm not sure why you bring this up, unless you believe Clinton really was the first black President. I think the reason why less than 10% more went to Obama could be based on a vareity of reasons: 1) black pride which everyone wants to assume anyway, 2) the fact that Bill Clinton offended many black voters that otherwise would have voted for Hillary, 3) because Obama, as a person, and his views, actually appealed to them as PEOPLE not black people, or 4) a combination of all of these things. Again, pointless to even bring it up.
 

MoonWater

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Karen, I'm replying to you here so I don't have to "insult" anyone in their "safe" thread (which after what I went through in the Obama speech thread just makes me laugh, but anyway...)

Date: 6/7/2008 12:06:58 AM
Author: ksinger

Tell that to MLK Jr who was surveilled as a criminal might be by the FBI. Tell that to Naomi Wolf, who is on a no-fly list for writing books critical of the government. Tell that to Maher Arar, who was minding his own business and was a victim of the 'extraordinary rendition' that our government repeatedly denies it does.


And that's my entire point. The Bush admin has been completely devoted to no transparency and no accountablity. The checks and balances have not BEEN in place. Under the Patriot Act for example, the FBI could request of a library what books you read, and the library is under a gag order. They can't tell you they got a request, so if someone at the FBI decides you are reading 'questionable' books, they could drag you in.


It's not about what your Aunt Edna had for lunch, it's about building a society that is COMPLACENT about the chipping away. It's about 'protecting' our country 'any way they can' to the point that our country no longer resembles anything worth saving. I work IN the government - it's made up of people, people who are driven by all the base impulses that people are driven by. Power, envy, the works. Most conservatives scream less government, and complain that the government is ineffective/unfair in how they tax, regulate and so on, and yet they are utterly sanguine and trusting about having Big Brother tap their phones without a warrant. I just do not get it. So let me put it in football us/them terms. Let's assume that tomorrow every person in every party switched, and the Dems have pretty much complete power of the executive branch, and the Congress (a situation we endured for 6 years with the Republicans) - would you be so thrilled to think that you were being tapped then?? So sure that 'the government' had your best interests at heart? Well, if you don't get concerned, that may very well be what happens. And dem though I'm registered, that scenario doesn't make me any happier than Bush et al, having that power. NO ONE should have that power.


I do not think this republic is indestructible, I think it's more fragile than we think, and if anything kills it will be dogged denial that 'we' could do that to our own people.

36.gif
and a AMEN. Especially the part in bold. I would love for one person to explain that logic to me. "I want less government with a wire tap" What the freaking heck??!?!?
 

luckystar112

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style="WIDTH: 96.24%; HEIGHT: 174px">Date: 6/7/2008 3:20:08 PM
Author: MoonWater


Because when I read it, it implies that he got that percentage because he is also black. I believe that is insulting to the black population in this country. Certainly SOME people vote for idiotic reasons such as race and gender, but to put that out there was unnecessary in light of the many reasons I laid out for you. Which I will provide here:
I certainly think his being black influenced some black voters. You assumed I meant everyone. I probably could have elaborated, but I didn''t think it was that shocking of a thing to say. I tried to apologize for offending you--those weren''t my intentions. I didn''t know that about Clinton, but I wasn''t old enough to vote then and wasn''t particularly interested in politics. I agree with your four reasons.

P.S. Glad you''re not going to "insult" us anymore. Such a "pity" I wasn''t in the "Obama speech thread" so that I "knew what you were talking about".
 

ksinger

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Date: 6/7/2008 3:17:15 PM
Author: coatimundi
A good book. (this has probably already been mentioned.)

The End of America by Naomi Wolf.

We have been experiencing the systematic depletion of our rights. Like Karen said,(many dittos here) it''s not to be attributed to one individual in this country. It''s simply the result of greed, fear, and complacency.

Another good book.

The Insect Societies by Edward O. Wilson.

I suppose living within a grand pyramid scheme is unavoidable.
For some reason reading that book almost made me hyperventilate I found it so disturbing. I kid you not. I had to read it in small doses....
 

coatimundi_org

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Date: 6/7/2008 6:01:05 PM
Author: ksinger
Date: 6/7/2008 3:17:15 PM

Author: coatimundi

A good book. (this has probably already been mentioned.)


The End of America by Naomi Wolf.


We have been experiencing the systematic depletion of our rights. Like Karen said,(many dittos here) it's not to be attributed to one individual in this country. It's simply the result of greed, fear, and complacency.


Another good book.


The Insect Societies by Edward O. Wilson.


I suppose living within a grand pyramid scheme is unavoidable.
The End of AmericaFor some reason reading that book almost made me hyperventilate I found it so disturbing. I kid you not. I had to read it in small doses....

Me too. I felt a panic of arrhythmic proportions. It really is just too close to home. I think many Americans must suffer from Stockholm Syndrome, because it's as plain as day.
 

KimberlyH

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Date: 6/5/2008 2:15:07 PM
Author: surfgirl



Date: 6/5/2008 1:24:59 PM
Author: Dancing Fire
Karen,SG and MC...

the reason i ask this Q cuz i don't know anything about Obama,good or bad. i'll say this though...if he plans on raising taxes 'he ain't getting my vote'
I just never understand this mentality DF. You do realize that taxes are what provide drinking water, paved roads, police and fire/EMT/life guard services, public schools, some public universities, etc. Taxes are what run our country. When politicians pander to those who are tax-phobic, acting like taxes are evil, it's just bizarre to me. Without taxes, we'd all be running around like animals, trying to make basic services work for ourselves. With taxes, communities, towns, cities, the country, are run with services that while not completely uniform, are relatively accessible nationwide. We have so many problems in this country, I have no problem with a little taxation as long as it is used wisely and for the most needed purposes.
As I have said before I am not affiliated with either political party, but I am opposed to taxes being raised and thought I might shed some light on the mentality DF expressed but did not expand upon.

I would have no problem paying taxes, if the government were both efficient and transparent, but it is neither of those things. I have worked for several governmental agencies, and have many friends and relatives who do as well, so I have had experiences with local, state and federal government and I am sickened by the waste and the "spend it or lose it" mantra of government that perpetuates unnecessary spending. It's not about "a little taxation" it's about government waste, especially in a time when people are struggling to put gas in their cars and food on their tables.

ETA: my belief about government waste extends to both Democrats and Republicans, it is in no way party based as I believe both groups have proved themselves to be irresponsible with taxpayer dollars.
 
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