WHY do people want whiter diamonds?

[Dreamer_D]

Here is a thread I posted a few years ago comparing an F and a K colored diamond:
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/photographic-death-match-f-versus-k.116295/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/photographic-death-match-f-versus-k.116295/[/URL]

And my conclusions: "The F color diamond seems to maintain an icy appearance accross the lighting conditions, wheras the K color diamond varies more in appearance depending on the lighting. In some environments the color difference is more noticable than in others. These diamonds are separated by five color grades, which is a lot, and yet I think that under many normal viewing conditions, the difference is fairly negligible. The price difference is not negligibale however: The F costs about $1200 more at the .60ct weight, and about $4000 more at the 1.20ct weight."

Another thread about the topic:
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/why-are-lower-colored-diamonds-such-chameleons.134453/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/why-are-lower-colored-diamonds-such-chameleons.134453/[/URL]

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Here is a thread I posted a few years ago comparing an F and a K colored diamond:
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/photographic-death-match-f-versus-k.116295/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/photographic-death-match-f-versus-k.116295/[/URL]

And my conclusions: "The F color diamond seems to maintain an icy appearance accross the lighting conditions, wheras the K color diamond varies more in appearance depending on the lighting. In some environments the color difference is more noticable than in others. These diamonds are separated by five color grades, which is a lot, and yet I think that under many normal viewing conditions, the difference is fairly negligible. The price difference is not negligibale however: The F costs about $1200 more at the .60ct weight, and about $4000 more at the 1.20ct weight."

Another thread about the topic:
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/why-are-lower-colored-diamonds-such-chameleons.134453/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/why-are-lower-colored-diamonds-such-chameleons.134453/[/URL]

Interesting - I wonder if you could take the same series in rooms or with colored cardboard tents Dreamer?
Also we can see from Tourmalines hands that her camera does not have an auto white balance working because her hands are changing color in each shot just as the diamonds are - same hue. That is important.

 

[Rhino]

Stone rotated so the ray passes thru one of the small 8 leakage zones at the tips of the star facets. Jon you might have thought this is primary leakage.
But you will need to make a rule
e.g. when more than half the light entering or leaving exits the pavilion within X number of bounces (or whatever).
Let me know when you have a definition and I will ask Sergey why it won't work.... hahahaha

go easy now!

Well ... I'll just say this. When leakage is so blatant that I can see the object directly behind the diamond ... that's primary/blatant/obvious enough for me. I like Karl's "partial" leakage term because sometimes it isn't so blatant ... ie the gray matter.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Stone rotated so the ray passes thru one of the small 8 leakage zones at the tips of the star facets. Jon you might have thought this is primary leakage.
But you will need to make a rule
e.g. when more than half the light entering or leaving exits the pavilion within X number of bounces (or whatever).
Let me know when you have a definition and I will ask Sergey why it won't work.... hahahaha

go easy now!

Well ... I'll just say this. When leakage is so blatant that I can see the object directly behind the diamond ... that's primary/blatant/obvious enough for me. I like Karl's "partial" leakage term because sometimes it isn't so blatant ... ie the gray matter.

So you can see blue in Karl's e.g. but I showed you that much of that "blatant Leakage" is after the 15th bounce and the rest of it is in 5% to 0.00000000000000001% micro blatant leakages.
Do you get it Jon?
No, probably not?

 

[Karl_K]

Well ... I'll just say this. When leakage is so blatant that I can see the object directly behind the diamond ... that's primary/blatant/obvious enough for me. I like Karl's "partial" leakage term because sometimes it isn't so blatant ... ie the gray matter.

partial leakage is a different criteria than indirect and direct.
There can be both indirect partial and direct partial leakage.
What I am trying to separate with indirect and direct is where on the back of the diamond is that leaking VF drawing light from. Most of the time it is the opposite side which is indirect.
Where direct draws light from the same side of the diamond as the leakage.

Partial leakage is on the other hand is that a VF that is showing some leakage but is returning some light from the top.

Neither direct or indirect. partial or full address the dwell time(my term) of the leakage which is how many degrees of tilt does it stay dark or light which is really more important than its type or kind.
Leakage that goes light at 2 degrees tilt is far less serious than leakage that does not go light over 20 degrees of tilt.

 

[yssie]

I'm late to respond and I haven't caught up on the three pages I've missed yet - including your explanation Karl and your diagram Garry! But I took this pic today and wanted to post because it's a pretty good illustration of the real-world difference I see regularly between my rings. The one on the left has F/G ACAs and the one on the right has well-cut Js of ACA-type proportions. They definitely look more... *something*... darker? Tinted? Yellower? "Moody"?

White-balanced in photoshop after the fact. Pic is actually quite true to what I see IRL despite the careless white-balancing when actually taking the photo.



ETA: better:

 

[Rhino]

I'm late to respond and I haven't caught up on the three pages I've missed yet - including your explanation Karl and your diagram Garry! But I took this pic today and wanted to post because it's a pretty good illustration of the real-world difference I see regularly between my rings. The one on the left has F/G ACAs and the one on the right has well-cut Js of ACA-type proportions. They definitely look more... *something*... darker? Tinted? Yellower? "Moody"?

White-balanced in photoshop after the fact. Pic is actually quite true to what I see IRL despite the careless white-balancing when actually taking the photo.

Excellent demonstration Yssie. The pic comes across pretty true here too. We've made AVR/AVC jewelry in both and we see this same contrast with preferences falling in either direction depending on the individual of course.

 

[yssie]

Thanks Rhino! It's cleaning day... we really just can't help ourselves

The difference is definitely more visible in some types of lights than others - in some lighting it fades away completely - but I'll never wear them on the same hand. I actually wanted the eternity in I/J/K but it'd have taken a lot longer because the stones would've had to have been specially cut, and they couldn't guarantee H&A, so... well. I love my band and the stones are gorgeous, but when I see pics like this I think maybe I should've looked into the lower-coloured offer more.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Color is more visible in larger stones Yssie, so if the stones were the other way around it would be less apparent.

 

[bgray]

I cant follow all the technical stuff. Maybe its my ADD but I would like to add a clarifying question in my attempt to sum up the scientific attempts to answer the "why do people want whiter diamonds" question (which I think is largely psychological and personal / innate preference). Question to ---Garry, Rhino, Kark etc ---are you saying that grading stones particularly for color is so inconsistent and uneven due to cut variances that true color assessment is impossible?

 

[Karl_K]

I cant follow all the technical stuff. Maybe its my ADD but I would like to add a clarifying question in my attempt to sum up the scientific attempts to answer the "why do people want whiter diamonds" question (which I think is largely psychological and personal / innate preference). Question to ---Garry, Rhino, Kark etc ---are you saying that grading stones particularly for color is so inconsistent and uneven due to cut variances that true color assessment is impossible?

Diamonds outside the fancy range are not graded for face up color.
So you have to separate the lab grade(material) and apparent color(what you see).
We can explain why the same lab graded material can have different apparent color and even predict how a certain cut will compare to another if cut from identical material.
However we can not tell you if you will see the difference or if you will care if you do.
You may even prefer the warmer color.

 

[bgray]

I cant follow all the technical stuff. Maybe its my ADD but I would like to add a clarifying question in my attempt to sum up the scientific attempts to answer the "why do people want whiter diamonds" question (which I think is largely psychological and personal / innate preference). Question to ---Garry, Rhino, Kark etc ---are you saying that grading stones particularly for color is so inconsistent and uneven due to cut variances that true color assessment is impossible?

Diamonds outside the fancy range are not graded for face up color.
So you have to separate the lab grade(material) and apparent color(what you see).
We can explain why the same lab graded material can have different apparent color and even predict how a certain cut will compare to another if cut from identical material.
However we can not tell you if you will see the difference or if you will care if you do.
You may even prefer the warmer color.

AH! thanks.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I cant follow all the technical stuff. Maybe its my ADD but I would like to add a clarifying question in my attempt to sum up the scientific attempts to answer the "why do people want whiter diamonds" question (which I think is largely psychological and personal / innate preference). Question to ---Garry, Rhino, Kark etc ---are you saying that grading stones particularly for color is so inconsistent and uneven due to cut variances that true color assessment is impossible?

Diamonds outside the fancy range are not graded for face up color.
So you have to separate the lab grade(material) and apparent color(what you see).
We can explain why the same lab graded material can have different apparent color and even predict how a certain cut will compare to another if cut from identical material.
However we can not tell you if you will see the difference or if you will care if you do.
You may even prefer the warmer color.

I agree, but would like to add one extra tit-bit.

In my long experience here there have been many people who say they prefer 'warmer' colored diamonds. But they also seem to prefer well cut stones, which in effect is an oxymoron.
If you really prefer warmer colored diamonds then when buying say a round stone, make sure it has poor symmetry and bad proportions and you will see even more color.
If you prefer 'warmer' color, then hunt out the brownish tinted stones which are sold at a big discount to cape or yellowish stones, because brownish is 'warmer' than cape.

(Garry runs away after throwing molitoff cocktail )

 

[bgray]

I cant follow all the technical stuff. Maybe its my ADD but I would like to add a clarifying question in my attempt to sum up the scientific attempts to answer the "why do people want whiter diamonds" question (which I think is largely psychological and personal / innate preference). Question to ---Garry, Rhino, Kark etc ---are you saying that grading stones particularly for color is so inconsistent and uneven due to cut variances that true color assessment is impossible?

Diamonds outside the fancy range are not graded for face up color.
So you have to separate the lab grade(material) and apparent color(what you see).
We can explain why the same lab graded material can have different apparent color and even predict how a certain cut will compare to another if cut from identical material.
However we can not tell you if you will see the difference or if you will care if you do.
You may even prefer the warmer color.

I agree, but would like to add one extra tit-bit.

In my long experience here there have been many people who say they prefer 'warmer' colored diamonds. But they also seem to prefer well cut stones, which in effect is an oxymoron.
If you really prefer warmer colored diamonds then when buying say a round stone, make sure it has poor symmetry and bad proportions and you will see even more color.
If you prefer 'warmer' color, then hunt out the brownish tinted stones which are sold at a big discount to cape or yellowish stones, because brownish is 'warmer' than cape.

(Garry runs away after throwing molitoff cocktail )

Thank you Garry--you bring up an important aspect of the discussion in my opinion. RUN!!!!!

 

[Karl_K]

I agree, but would like to add one extra tit-bit.

In my long experience here there have been many people who say they prefer 'warmer' colored diamonds. But they also seem to prefer well cut stones, which in effect is an oxymoron.
If you really prefer warmer colored diamonds then when buying say a round stone, make sure it has poor symmetry and bad proportions and you will see even more color.
If you prefer 'warmer' color, then hunt out the brownish tinted stones which are sold at a big discount to cape or yellowish stones, because brownish is 'warmer' than cape.

(Garry runs away after throwing molitoff cocktail )

Run Garry Run!!! lol

I can answer, some do seek those browns but..
You see sparky looking warm diamonds are much more interesting then dull looking diamonds of any color.
So by buying well cut warm diamonds one can get the best of both worlds, lots of spark and some pretty color.

 

[yssie]

I agree, but would like to add one extra tit-bit.

In my long experience here there have been many people who say they prefer 'warmer' colored diamonds. But they also seem to prefer well cut stones, which in effect is an oxymoron.
If you really prefer warmer colored diamonds then when buying say a round stone, make sure it has poor symmetry and bad proportions and you will see even more color.
If you prefer 'warmer' color, then hunt out the brownish tinted stones which are sold at a big discount to cape or yellowish stones, because brownish is 'warmer' than cape.

(Garry runs away after throwing molitoff cocktail )

Run Garry Run!!! lol

I can answer, some do seek those browns but..
You see sparky looking warm diamonds are much more interesting then dull looking diamonds of any color.
So by buying well cut warm diamonds one can get the best of both worlds, lots of spark and some pretty color.

Yup, better get running! I'm giving you a couple hours head start

In answer to the above, I think that pic above that you copied into the other thread explains why people might want well-cut lower-coloured stones - there is a face-up difference between well-cut F/Gs and Js of similar size and proportions. And you don't get fire without "well-cut", and I love colour! (IMO at J/K/L the frequencies you are sacrificing to absorption are minimal - doesn't impact my enjoyment of the dispersion anyway!) There was some way to sacrifice even more bright white light for colour... I've heard about etching the crown to do exactly that, I'd love to play around with one for a few days.

Re the size difference - yeah, bigger stones do often show colour more, I was looking at the end stone (12pt) and the middle sidestone (20pt) GIA J, there are too many factors to make a direct comparison once you get to the third sidestone (40pt)..

This really just goes back to why people buy diamonds - people buy them for a variety of reasons! Did you see my pic of my rose cut pear under the IS a couple of pages back? Face-up light return of face-up incident light == not a priority on that purchase! And my briolettes are even "worse"... My diamonds are like my cats. If the metric of interest is intelligence, well, I've got smart, dumb, dumber, and dumbest, and yet for some strange reason I adore them so clearly for me there are metrics of value besides that one

ETA and I still owe you a reply from before.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Great reply Yssie
see - if i stir the pot some creativity drops out the other end (rather like a still and whiskey!)

 

[Karl_K]

Great reply Yssie
see - if i stir the pot some creativity drops out the other end (rather like a still and whiskey!)

nuke em blue and sell them as Sea Diamonds on cruise ships at D prices and come up with blue revenge nail polish??

 

[Rockdiamond]

I'm a bit late to the discussion...and have not read all the prior comments.
My take:
1) people have been up-sold continually by many sellers. A customer asking for a J color diamond may be told
there's something inherently wrong with a J. This leads many consumers to ask for higher colors when they might actually prefer a J if they'd have seen it first hand.
2) Broad statements about better cut hiding color are not consistent with real life observation.
Maybe Garry was joking- however poor symmetry will not, as a rule, mean a diamond shows more color.
While it's true that the design of a modern RBC will generally show less body color than a Cushion Modified, once we compare RBC to RBC an "Ideal" cut does not always show whiter than a non ideal cut stone of the same color.
In fact a case could be made that a larger table combined with longer LGF's may give the stone a whiter appearance.
Bottom line is that each stone must be judged on it's own merits, and broad based conclusions will not provide accurate results in every case.
Implying that better cut hides color is akin to the statement that one has to buy whiter than G- it's an upsell.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I'm a bit late to the discussion...and have not read all the prior comments.
My take:

2) Broad statements about better cut hiding color are not consistent with real life observation.
Maybe Garry was joking- however poor symmetry will not, as a rule, mean a diamond shows more color.
While it's true that the design of a modern RBC will generally show less body color than a Cushion Modified, once we compare RBC to RBC an "Ideal" cut does not always show whiter than a non ideal cut stone of the same color.
In fact a case could be made that a larger table combined with longer LGF's may give the stone a whiter appearance.
Bottom line is that each stone must be judged on it's own merits, and broad based conclusions will not provide accurate results in every case.
Implying that better cut hides color is akin to the statement that one has to buy whiter than G- it's an upsell.

As usual Rock, your statements imply "trust me to guide you to buy a diamond".
the blue statement is valid.
The rest is BS.
If you wish to read the entire thread and challenge any part that is already there that refutes your other comments. Otherwise there is no point wasting time with such silly statements.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hi Garry- Merry Christmas!

I cant follow all the technical stuff. Maybe its my ADD but I would like to add a clarifying question in my attempt to sum up the scientific attempts to answer the "why do people want whiter diamonds" question (which I think is largely psychological and personal / innate preference). Question to ---Garry, Rhino, Kark etc ---are you saying that grading stones particularly for color is so inconsistent and uneven due to cut variances that true color assessment is impossible?

Diamonds outside the fancy range are not graded for face up color.
So you have to separate the lab grade(material) and apparent color(what you see).
We can explain why the same lab graded material can have different apparent color and even predict how a certain cut will compare to another if cut from identical material.
However we can not tell you if you will see the difference or if you will care if you do.
You may even prefer the warmer color.

I agree, but would like to add one extra tit-bit.

In my long experience here there have been many people who say they prefer 'warmer' colored diamonds. But they also seem to prefer well cut stones, which in effect is an oxymoron.
If you really prefer warmer colored diamonds then when buying say a round stone, make sure it has poor symmetry and bad proportions and you will see even more color.
If you prefer 'warmer' color, then hunt out the brownish tinted stones which are sold at a big discount to cape or yellowish stones, because brownish is 'warmer' than cape.

(Garry runs away after throwing molitoff cocktail )

This-
I agree that there's advantages to buying the best cut one can.
However I find that the reasons are not related to color, per se.
The best cut dos not always = whitest stone of a given color grade.
I also find that warmer diamonds can look absolutely breathtaking in ideal proportions. I don't feel it's an oxymoron

For sure brown rounds, in particular, will be cut to wonkier proportion sets to bring out the color, as compared to cape ( L-M-N-OP color)

 

[Karl_K]

1) people have been up-sold continually by many sellers. A customer asking for a J color diamond may be told
there's something inherently wrong with a J. This leads many consumers to ask for higher colors when they might actually prefer a J if they'd have seen it first hand.

Considering how little the vast majority of people clean their rings the D is soon looking just like a J would anyway with all the lotion and other oils that clings to it.
I find that rather funny people buy high color diamonds then let them get so dirty you cant see the color if you wanted to.
The same holds true with well cut diamonds to some extent but they in some cases will hold up better under it than less well cut diamonds.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Considering how little the vast majority of people clean their rings the D is soon looking just like a J would anyway with all the lotion and other oils that clings to it.
I find that rather funny people buy high color diamonds then let them get so dirty you cant see the color if you wanted to.
The same holds true with well cut diamonds to some extent but they in some cases will hold up better under it than less well cut diamonds.

Karl,
I could not agree with you more. The subject is both a head scratcher and a pet peeve of mine. A fine diamond is not a "set it and forget it" item people!!!

Our customers agonize over minute light performance issues and, as you point out, if you don't keep your diamond clean you lose far more in performance than a little leakage that might vaguely show in a static LP image.

Customers are invariably AMAZED when we steam clean their jewelry and return their diamonds to full performance. When I have occassion to work with customers, I will typically give my "lecture" about cleaning.

Part of my issue, I have to admit, is commercially driven. The diamonds we sell become little beacons for referrals. If they are allowed to lose their pop and look ordinary, it feels like such a loss!

One of our challenges in educating around this issue is that we are primarily bridal and a significant portion of our customers are men. So we need to somehow get the message to the bride, but sometimes that connection is not there.

On the plus side (as you also pointed out), a very well cut diamond will perform much better under duress than an ordinary cut.

 

[luvmysparklies]

Considering how little the vast majority of people clean their rings the D is soon looking just like a J would anyway with all the lotion and other oils that clings to it.
I find that rather funny people buy high color diamonds then let them get so dirty you cant see the color if you wanted to.
The same holds true with well cut diamonds to some extent but they in some cases will hold up better under it than less well cut diamonds.

Karl,
I could not agree with you more. The subject is both a head scratcher and a pet peeve of mine. A fine diamond is not a "set it and forget it" item people!!!

Our customers agonize over minute light performance issues and, as you point out, if you don't keep your diamond clean you lose far more in performance than a little leakage that might vaguely show in a static LP image.

Customers are invariably AMAZED when we steam clean their jewelry and return their diamonds to full performance. When I have occassion to work with customers, I will typically give my "lecture" about cleaning.

Part of my issue, I have to admit, is commercially driven. The diamonds we sell become little beacons for referrals. If they are allowed to lose their pop and look ordinary, it feels like such a loss!

One of our challenges in educating around this issue is that we are primarily bridal and a significant portion of our customers are men. So we need to somehow get the message to the bride, but sometimes that connection is not there.

On the plus side (as you also pointed out), a very well cut diamond will perform much better under duress than an ordinary cut.

Preach! LOL! Texasleaguer- You've captured my feelings, but from a different perspective...I have given my Mom well-cut (ideal proportions) diamonds and my shoulders just slump when she tells me how she brags about the jewelry her daughter gave her and I look down and see caked on lotion and soap totally encrusting the stone(s) making them look horrid!

 

[iluvdiamonds2]

I LOVE white diamonds in modern cut stones, but I seem to be loving the "L" color in larger OEC's and cushions, old miner cuts.....but wouldn't like that warmer color in modern cut stones....that's just my o.