Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carats?

[PrecisionGem]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

"Not all well cut stones are gems, but all gems are well cut."

The Logan sapphire, Smithsonian Institution.

I've seen this stone in person many times, and if it were mine, I would recut it in a heartbeat. To me, all stones are basically worthless objects that I appreciate only for the beauty, and I'd much rather make that stone more beautiful. It's not like there is any real worthwhile value to the stone (unless you plan on selling it). To a starving person an apple is worth more.

As always with this thread, one can find extreme exceptions to contradict what has been said.

If you are right, then Kenny should send all his FCDs for a recut ASAP. They are worth nothing till he recuts them in a heartbeat!

(Sorry, Kenny).

I don't think that's what I said at all. The point I was trying to make, was that gems in them selves have no actual value. You can't eat it, you can't burn it to heat your house, they are stickily something to look at. If I owned the stone, and had to look at it, couldn't sell it, but just owned it for useless stone it is, I would recut. Then I would be more entertained looking at.

 

[minousbijoux]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Pandora: I get french doors and pancakes, but guppies? Translation service, please.

 

[Pandora II]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Big fat bottom-heavy fish... it's a term used for big bellied stones that face up a lot smaller than they weigh.

 

[minousbijoux]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Big fat bottom-heavy fish... it's a term used for big bellied stones that face up a lot smaller than they weigh.

Oh I get it - big butts!

 

[LD]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

A guppy ...................... (although it also looks suspiciously like me after a big meal)!

 

[chrono]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

So I would guess Chrono, that you spinel is cut to correct angles, but was cut quickly, therefore meets are a little off, the girdle is not really level etc. I don't know as I have not seen the stone in person, just your avitar."

Gene,
I managed to find a picture showing how wavy the girdle is. I do not think it was cut quickly but to preserve weight. The thickness is also highly inconsistent.

 

[Arkteia]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

- When they asked Michelangelo how he made his statue of David he is reported to have said, "It is easy. You just chip away the stone that doesn't look like David."

I wonder how much our precision cutters would chip off Logan? Which part of it would not like the flawless unheated Ceylon stone of a fantastic color?

 

[mastercutgems]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

LOL

We cutters would be like Michelangelo and only grind away the parts that did not reflect the inner beauty and color from within the gem

Most respectfully;

Dana Reynolds
ASG Certified Supreme Master Gem Cutter # 96cge42

 

[Pandora II]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Ah but the proportions on David are dire...

His thumb is about twice the size of his willy, poor guy!

 

[Roger Dery]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Ah but the proportions on David are dire...

His thumb is about twice the size of his willy, poor guy!

NOW that's funny!

 

[LD]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Ah but the proportions on David are dire...

His thumb is about twice the size of his willy, poor guy!

*sniggers and realises that I'm thankfully not the only one who has noticed*

 

[PrecisionGem]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Let me ask one last question. And answer as a consumer, not as if you were the cutter. I don't think anyone on this thread has any of my stones, so would you be more likely to buy one if I cut it for weight. Left a belly on it, and even a tier of facets below the critical angle so there was a small window? Now I charge by the ct. so you would be paying a little more of the stone, but it would weigh a little more. Or would you rather pay a little less but have it cut very well, but be a bit smaller? The face up diameter would most likely be the same. Or would you prefer the heavier stone, but this time I cut it really fast, not to careful about symmetry and how the facets meet, and use a coarser polish so that goes quicker, but since I saved time, now you would get the heavier stone, but at the price of the precision cut one?

Lets say it's a very nice colored Umbalite garnet. Precision cut is 2.5 ct. Cut for weight is 3.1 ct

 

[minousbijoux]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Hands down, I know what my answer would be, but I'm a buyer of your stones, unless you've forgotten...

 

[T L]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Let me ask one last question. And answer as a consumer, not as if you were the cutter. I don't think anyone on this thread has any of my stones, so would you be more likely to buy one if I cut it for weight. Left a belly on it, and even a tier of facets below the critical angle so there was a small window? Now I charge by the ct. so you would be paying a little more of the stone, but it would weigh a little more. Or would you rather pay a little less but have it cut very well, but be a bit smaller? The face up diameter would most likely be the same. Or would you prefer the heavier stone, but this time I cut it really fast, not to careful about symmetry and how the facets meet, and use a coarser polish so that goes quicker, but since I saved time, now you would get the heavier stone, but at the price of the precision cut one?

Lets say it's a very nice colored Umbalite garnet. Precision cut is 2.5 ct. Cut for weight is 3.1 ct

I think it also depends on the price of the material per carat. No one would want to cut a beautiful gem worth $$$$$$$ per carat down, even as much as a half carat to remove that belly. However, on less expensive material, like the umbalite example, I think it's reasonable to want a precision cut gem.

I think what some people are disagreeing with you about is the fact that sometimes saturation is lost, if the stone is cut down, even as a precision cut. You say it is not, and that saturation is always helped by precision faceting. While I do agree that it helps light return, I cannot always say that saturation will always be helped by precision faceting. I'm speaking of recuts here. I'm not speaking of starting with a piece of rough.

I will also say that I would much rather recut a darker toned stone than a lighter toned one. The issue is that when a stone is too dark in tone, it can be over-saturated, rendering it extinct and blackish. A precision cut would help lighten the tone and help eliminate extinction, thereby helping the overall saturation. I think the problem lies in some medium dark to lighter tones. If you lighten the tone too much, and a recut would, by eliminating material, then the saturation may be less strong. Saturation is related to tone, although they are evaluated separately.

 

[LD]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

I'm also a buyer of a couple of your stones so not sure I can answer??? ........... but I will anyway

For me the answer is in the material. Is the gemstone rare? Is the colour exceptional? If yes to both then cut is not something I worry about - within reason of course. I would prefer to retain weight and therefore (usually) value. If the gemstone is rare/exceptional and precision cut then I will, of course, be interested IF the price hasn't escalated phenomenally.

Would I buy a poorly cut, reasonably easy to source gemstone i.e Umbalite Garnet? Probably not because I can always find one at some point. The only time I would be tempted is if the colour were phenomenal. Otherwise I'd pass it by.

I buy both precision / non-precision cut gemstones. Predominantely I buy for colour and beauty not cut.

 

[Pandora II]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

For me the answer is in the material. Is the gemstone rare? Is the colour exceptional? If yes to both then cut is not something I worry about - within reason of course. I would prefer to retain weight and therefore (usually) value. If the gemstone is rare/exceptional and precision cut then I will, of course, be interested IF the price hasn't escalated phenomenally.

Would I buy a poorly cut, reasonably easy to source gemstone i.e Umbalite Garnet? Probably not because I can always find one at some point. The only time I would be tempted is if the colour were phenomenal. Otherwise I'd pass it by.

I buy both precision / non-precision cut gemstones. Predominantely I buy for colour and beauty not cut.

This.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

We are not talking about a recut. We are not talking that you own the rough. You have no idea what the rough weighed, we are just looking at a finished stone. Ok, so lets change it to a blue sapphire.

3 choices:

1. 3.8 ct finished stone. Window, belly, measures 8.5 mm round. $3800
2. 3.1 ct. finished stone. Precision cut measures 8.5 mm round. Lots of life and flash. $3100
3. 3.8 ct finished stone. Window, belly, poor polish and meets, a bit lopsided. $3100

Color and saturation are the same on all stones.

 

[minousbijoux]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

I totally agree with TL and LD. Its starting to get a little like asking how many angels are dancing on the head of a pin...a bit theroetical.

 

[T L]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

We are not talking about a recut. We are not talking that you own the rough. You have no idea what the rough weighed, we are just looking at a finished stone. Ok, so lets change it to a blue sapphire.

3 choices:

1. 3.8 ct finished stone. Window, belly, measures 8.5 mm round. $3800
2. 3.1 ct. finished stone. Precision cut measures 8.5 mm round. Lots of life and flash. $3100
3. 3.8 ct finished stone. Window, belly, poor polish and meets, a bit lopsided. $3100

Color and saturation are the same on all stones.

If you're making it an easy choice, then #2 would definitely be what I would want. These scenarios are not all this easy however. I would rather have the huge 422 carat Logan sapphire with its awful cutting, than a substantially smaller precision cut gem of the same hue, clarity and saturation.

I do enjoy precision cut gems, and if color/saturation/clarity is equal, and the price points don't differ too much per carat, and the carat weights were very close, I would always choose the round, or other standard shape, of precision cut gem. I will say that I do not like checkerboard faceting and I'm not a fan of concave cuts, but if you're talking traditional faceting in the above scenario, I would choose #2.

 

[ChrisA222]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

No brainer to me...stone #2. You have stated that the tone and saturation are the same in all stones, so the only 'negative' to stone number 2 is the ct weight. That is the least important to me, considering theoptions. Why would I spend over $3K on a stone that wasn't performing the best that it could?

Now, you could change the options and add that the poorly cut stone has better color/saturation, because according to TL, some stones that are precision cut and lose ct weight, lose saturation. I always thought saturation was saturation, that it didnt have anything to do with mass, but I am still learning so I differ to you guys on that. But, lets say that with the loss of ct weight the stone did lose saturation...now which stone do you choose? How much less saturation is the precision cut gem? I think you would handle this on a case by case basis. Most cases though I am willing to sacrifice a bit of color, whether it is saturation or tone, that is lost in losing mass, to get myself the better cut, better performing gem.

just my 2 cents...

 

[PrecisionGem]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Well the problem is TL is wrong in this case. The well cut stone will not have less saturation or color.

 

[T L]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Well the problem is TL is wrong in this case. The well cut stone will not have less saturation or color.

Gene, I was talking about recuts. In your three cases, you state the saturation/hue is the same. Saturation cannot be guaranteed for an arbitrary recut, especially if you recut #1 or #3 in your above scenario.

 

[chrono]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Let me ask one last question. And answer as a consumer, not as if you were the cutter. I don't think anyone on this thread has any of my stones, so would you be more likely to buy one if I cut it for weight. Left a belly on it, and even a tier of facets below the critical angle so there was a small window? Now I charge by the ct. so you would be paying a little more of the stone, but it would weigh a little more. Or would you rather pay a little less but have it cut very well, but be a bit smaller? The face up diameter would most likely be the same. Or would you prefer the heavier stone, but this time I cut it really fast, not to careful about symmetry and how the facets meet, and use a coarser polish so that goes quicker, but since I saved time, now you would get the heavier stone, but at the price of the precision cut one?

Lets say it's a very nice colored Umbalite garnet. Precision cut is 2.5 ct. Cut for weight is 3.1 ct

I am a consumer so it is easy enough to think of this from my usual perspective. You might be surprised but I DO have one of your stones.

The answer? It depends on the material and how terrible is the belly. A very nicely coloured Umbalite garnet of around 2.5 ct to 3.1 ct isn't going to be terribly expensive. It also isn't a terribly rare material. Therefore, I would go for the precision faceted choice. The answer here is easy and straightforward. My answer will be different (I don't mind a small window and a bit of a belly) if we are talking about a nicely coloured UNheated ruby of that size. There is going to be a huge ct weight price increase when it tips over the 3 carat mark which further increases its rarity.

 

[chrono]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

We are not talking about a recut. We are not talking that you own the rough. You have no idea what the rough weighed, we are just looking at a finished stone. Ok, so lets change it to a blue sapphire.

3 choices:

1. 3.8 ct finished stone. Window, belly, measures 8.5 mm round. $3800
2. 3.1 ct. finished stone. Precision cut measures 8.5 mm round. Lots of life and flash. $3100
3. 3.8 ct finished stone. Window, belly, poor polish and meets, a bit lopsided. $3100

Color and saturation are the same on all stones.

This again depends on the colour (hue, tone and saturation) and treatment on the stone. Based on pricing, this looks to be a heated blue sapphire, so not terribly rare or expensive. It would be a toss up between #1 and #2, depending on exactly how fine the colour is. If it's not super nice, I am more likely to purchase the 3.1 ct precision cut stone because it's going to need all the "help" it can get. If the colour is quite fine, I will pick the 3.8 ct $3800 stone PROVIDED the cut isn't too terrible (not overly deep belly and window is small). I refuse stones that have major cut issues. Or else, I may pass on all three stones and keep on looking elsewhere.

 

[MakingTheGrade]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

If color and saturation are equal, I'd prefer the precision cut gem almost every time especially if it faces up similarly. That being said, I did just buy a native cut sapphire trillion due to not being able to find anything of that color and face up size in my price range elsewhere. I love the color and so forgive the cut, but hypothetically if I could have found one slightly smaller of better cut then it would have been an easy decision to go precision.

 

[0-0-0]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

I think it's an interesting question, but I also think the answers are going to vary a lot depending on who you ask.

Personally, I don't see myself as a collector and think it's somewhat of a waste of a good stone if it's just going to sit in a case and not worn. As such, I find that I'm quite picky about cut even if the stone is rare or the right color. I've also found that I only buy with a completed piece in mind, and I hesitate to set even precision cut stones with the right color when it turns out the cut doesn't fit in with what I have in mind.

In PrecisionGem's scenario, I would likely only consider the precision cut version, but further ask myself these questions in order:
1. Does the color grab my attention? If not, pass.
2. Does the cut grab my attention? (including minimal tilt windows and obstruction) If not, pass.
3. Does the cut fit in with what I have in mind in terms of setting? If not, pass.

 

[Arkteia]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Ah but the proportions on David are dire...

His thumb is about twice the size of his willy, poor guy!

(Wonder what a precision cutter would do, to maintain perfect proportions? Recut a finger or grind away ... something else?)


And seriously, one situation taught me a lot. Once I bought a beautiful unheated Ceylon sapphire. The cut was native but quite good. I wanted a precision cut, so I asked the cutter who I bought it from to recut it. The cutter, an honest vendor and a reasonable guy, asked me to think, repeating that the cut was perfectly acceptable. I insisted, just for the sake of having a precision cut stone. He offered to just clean the pavilion. I said, no, let us go for a full recut, I do not want any extinction, I want a precision cut. So he recut it, and I paid $$ for the recut, and instead of a 3+ ct sapphire, I now have a 2.5-ct sapphire. He is a good cutter, he preserved a lot... Yes, it has less extinction, and the color is stunning. But it was stunning to start with. It was at the very beginning of my PS days. Would I do it now? NEVER EVER.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

I don't know how we keep getting back to re-cuts. The title of this thread is: " PLEASE EXPLAIN THE LOGIC OF LOUSY CUTTING FOR MORE CARATS?"

I think my exampled showed that there is not good logic for for lousy cutting. Remember, just because a stone is cut well doesn't mean it's going to be smaller either. I just finished up a stone tonight and got 43.6% yield on it, with absolutely no compromises on the angles used.

Sorry to those on here that I can't connect their real names to screen names. Some day everyone from Pricescope should get together in person so we can all put a face to the avatars. We are having another Sound for the Hounds puppy mill awareness event just outside of NYC this year. It may be a good place for members in the area to meet!

http://www.soundforthehounds.com

 

[Lovinggems]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

We are not talking about a recut. We are not talking that you own the rough. You have no idea what the rough weighed, we are just looking at a finished stone. Ok, so lets change it to a blue sapphire.

3 choices:

1. 3.8 ct finished stone. Window, belly, measures 8.5 mm round. $3800
2. 3.1 ct. finished stone. Precision cut measures 8.5 mm round. Lots of life and flash. $3100
3. 3.8 ct finished stone. Window, belly, poor polish and meets, a bit lopsided. $3100

Color and saturation are the same on all stones.

If number 2 is the most beautiful looking and there's no loss of saturation etc. You should cut what pleases you and charge 3800.

 

[MakingTheGrade]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

That sounds like a great place and reason to try to organize a get together!