Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carats?

[Quantz Studios]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Arkteia, are you sure that's a garnet? A garnet wouldn't have more color in the ends of the crystal. Sounds like it could be a mint green tourmline? Did you see this effect in the rough? A long oval or pear shape cut will concentrate the color as the more pointed ends, but the piece of rough if it were garnet should be the same color and tone throughout the stone. Garnets are not dichroic.

I've seen this in my own mint garnet rough, where the color appears to be more saturated in spots of the stone. I think it's an optical illusion, because my garnet cut a perfect color even when it seems I cut off the areas where the color was in the rough.

 

[Arkteia]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

PrecisionCut,

Both a very well-known rough vendor and a very well-known lapidarian said it was is a Merelani mint garnet. I saw it being more saturated at the tips. Jerry said the same. But opinions vary, so I am not going to contradict you. You are a specialist, I am not. The rough was flat, but I thought it could cut a pear. A perfect pear, as Jerry said, would mean sacrificing a big tip of the stone.

PrecisionCut and Stonebender,

This rough was expensive. I can not comment on the prices of these stones now; everything became expensive these days. But even approximately a year and a half ago, these stones were not cheap. To me, as a customer, 35% yield versus 20% yield did make a difference, and it still does. A 2+ ct stone is more noticeable when set than a 1+ct one, and a good jeweler can help to set the stone in the best way.

Jerry is a good lapidarian. Those of you who have seen his own stones and not recuts know how good he is. I wanted to demonstrate that an excellent lapidarian can sometimes make a decision to sacrifice a perfect cut for the weight and the color. As customer, I am very thankful to Jerry for his explanations that allowed me to make a choice that I do not regret. The only thing I should do is to post better photos of the stone, unfortunately, I used low lights.

 

[Arkteia]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Sorry, PrecisionGem of course. But I think you know where the mistake comes from...

 

[LD]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

I really take issue with calling native cuts "lousy". Some native cuts are really gorgeous.

I would rather have a native cut in a rare stone that preserves colour and carat weight than a smaller precision cut gem. It's personal preference.

Cut is NOT the most important aspect of coloured gemstones. It is with diamonds but not coloured stones. With coloured stones the most important "C" is colour. I understand some buyers want it all, colour, cut, carat weight etc etc BUT this limits what you can buy if you only buy precision cut gemstones. That's not to say I don't own precision cut gemstones, of course I do, but that's NOT my personal #1 parameter for buying.

But, would you knowingly buy a stone of good material, that had a big, obvious window in the center, even if that window caused the color to be too light in the window, just because its good material?

See, thats the issue I have with a few of my stones. I have a few stones that have windows, but the material is of good quality. But I dont want to look into a window every time I see the stone.... I want it to look good! I dont care if I lose 25-35% of the stone's weight, as long as it still faces up well.

The mandarin spess I mentioned in the OP is very good quality, pure orange material, and the only downside to it is that Its a little bit lighter than the grade A+ prime mandarin Garnets, but I've seen stones cut well from this same material, that were absolutely beautiful, and incredibly bright! There arent too many other gems out there that are even capable of being as bright as a mandarin garnet, if its cut well...

So I'd rather not leave this Spess at its current 2.82cts if instead I can have it recut to 1.82- 2.2cts and it will be bright as all get out!

Absolutely 100% yes.

I won't bore everybody by posting a photo of my 4ct Paraiba Tourmaline AGAIN but it's a classic example of buying a windowed stone. If you search under my name you'll find it. As Chrono has said, I bought this because I was in the right place at the right time, realised that material was getting harder to find and at 4ct and a VERY good price, I wasn't going to walk away. Even with the window it's increased in value (assuming I would find a buyer) beyond anything I could have imagined. So was it a good buy? Absolutely yes. There's no way I could buy a 4ct Paraiba Tourmaline of the same colour now without adding zeros to the price.

Oh and Gene - I stopped thinking about re-cutting it years ago and I've been very happy with it. Once I learned how much weight would be lost it ceased to concern me. I set it and now love it. In fact, I didn't even consider having it recut until I found this board. I asked a few questions, found out the potential loss and that was it!

In the same way, I collect Alexandrites and have around 50 or so. I have several over 3ct. None are precision cut. All are native cuts, some good and some not. Again, if I was only looking for an exceptionally well cut Alexandrite with good colour change, I'd be waiting a very long time.

You may not want to buy windowed stones and that's fine. It just leaves me more options!!!

 

[LD]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Hi Chrono

Many times the boss as you say of the cutting house does not own the rough. I most of the time work with a broker that will deal with the cutting house owner; who employs the cutters in that particular house and there are many houses that deal with certain mineral types and particular cuts like cabochon, etc... Usually the broker is also a cutter like my friend Ahmed that was in the American Society of Gem Cutters like myself as that is where we met.

As for being contradictory to Gene it will all depend on what the owner of the rough wants; some may say they want all round brilliants; then there may only be a 12% gain; as that client may have a need for say 4mm rounds for their jewelry design. Other cases there will be a 35% yield as the client will say get the most you can out of the rough as I do not care what shape or calibration size; just get me high return; then you will get the acorns, rovals, abstracts, huge bulge factor pavilions, etc... But it will depend on the rough and if it is wide and shallow that is what you will get... a wide polished oval that is wide and flat; but polished... high yield per the rough but not really worthy of gold in these days...

Then you will have people like me who are cutters that will take the time to evaluate your rough and separate it as to the type of cut and shape and you may get 25% to 30 % yield; but those are averages and nothing etched in stone but a general rule of thumb... But you have taken the time to pick the cut per the shape and type of mineral rough to better aid the cutting house and the broker to get them to the right cutting house for the best cut. They are not created equal just as cutters here in the states; some are better than others; and many times you do get what you pay for...

As for your question about why I send rough to get cut overseas; I came to the conclusion many years ago I have more facet rough than me and 4 more cutters will not be able to cut in our lifetime cutting 8 hours a day 5 days a week. I bought heavy when I owned my other corporation as I was single and made good money; that was an outlet as I worked all the time; I found rough contacts/ mine owners all over the globe and I bought a lot of rough; parcels of 5000 carats at a time. etc., then after doing that for 10 years I came into doing this for my living for the trade only. Too much rough and too little time to cut it all. So I tried many cutting houses in Sri Lanka,Thailand, and here recently Tanzania. Much of the rough i send out now is very fine rough but smaller than I or my friend Grey want to cut. So it is easier for me to send those gems and gems like Topaz, amethyst, citrine, some tourmalines and the smaller rough to them to have cut as the rough is very nice but smaller than we want to cut as we have bigger rough to cut. Time is money and it is just basic business sense to cut a 100 dollar a carat gem opposed to a 10 dollar a carat gem...

Also RedSpinel if you were jesting about my title I earned it and they named it not I; it does sound a little on the pampas side; but it is what it is... It was not a gift bestowed on me but many tests both written and oral and although they do not offer it any longer which to me is a shame; I am honored to be one of the few that have it.

Most respectfully;

Dana Reynolds
ASG Certified Supreme Master Gem Cutter

And you should be rightly proud of your title Dana.

 

[davi_el_mejor]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Hi Chrono


Also RedSpinel if you were jesting about my title I earned it and they named it not I; it does sound a little on the pampas side; but it is what it is... It was not a gift bestowed on me but many tests both written and oral and although they do not offer it any longer which to me is a shame; I am honored to be one of the few that have it.

Most respectfully;

Dana Reynolds
ASG Certified Supreme Master Gem Cutter

And you should be rightly proud of your title Dana.

Whole-heartedly agree

 

[gsellis]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

The closer the rough is to the final shape the less loss there will be.

I think some cutters are stuck with rough of unfortunate shapes that result in more weight loss like this.

Actually Kenny, those split boules are well shaped. I get 30-40% or better on those in a square. The round half is the pavilion. Half way there Just saw a square, rough in the table, dop, and go.

 

[gsellis]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Jerry is a good lapidarian. Those of you who have seen his own stones and not recuts know how good he is. I wanted to demonstrate that an excellent lapidarian can sometimes make a decision to sacrifice a perfect cut for the weight and the color.

If you watched the emerald cutting video that I posted with Gustavo Castelblanco of Montana (in Columbia), this is hammered out while cutting emeralds. Gustavo's crew spends time centering and mounting the stone for performance. They cut the pavilion precisely. Then they transfer and finish the stone's crown on a jamb peg machine for retention. And the guys on the jamb peg machines are all extremely good with excellent meets.

Performance is tuned with weight retention as the goal. Emerald crystals' hex forms lead to setting up an alignment where the best side can form the less cut pavilion side. And Gus can get up to 70% retention regularly. At $4000 a caret, every percentage point is significant.

 

[chrono]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

To me, the definition of precision faceting is well explained in the link below:
http://www.osirisgems.com/precision_cutting
The stone must have meetpoint accuracy, fine polish, light return and stone performance are all taken into consideration.

The above is why I do not consider my Mahenge spinel to be precision cut, but a very good "native" cut. I think the lapidary who cut it was trained in Germany but it’s does not meet my definition of precision cutting. The meetpoints aren’t even; my spinel has meetlines. If you look at the facet pattern, it’s not precise. The facets aren’t the exact same shape and size for those that are supposed to be so. The girdle is uneven and wavy. It was clearly cut for weight retention with some consideration to concentrate the colour.

So is it considered a poorly done precision cut stone or a well cut “native” stone? Where does the line get drawn? What are everyone else's definition of precision cutting?

 

[mastercutgems]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Hi Chrono

Given the details in the examination you gave on the cut of your gem spinel I would draw the conclusion it was a optically correct cut non-precision cut gemstone alias "native cut" which I hate to use that term as native would be it was cut in the country it was mined to ... just my opinion...

So maybe we should start using the terms non-precision or precision cut gemstones in our terminology... Seriously.... as "native " is a term I would think would not represent precision or non-precision.

Even if we use the term "western" cut that does not mean I cannot pull out the jamb peg machine and do a step cut misaligned pavilion myself and I am not "native" to that location the gem was mined???

It is food for thought Chrono...

Let us do a poll and find out what would be the "correct" term to use on gems that do not have the mathematically exactness a precision gem should have???

precision cut / non-precision cut or stay with the "native" / precision or western cut...


Most Respectfully;

Dana Reynolds
ASG Certified Supreme Master Gem Cutter #96cge42

 

[movie zombie]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

I really take issue with calling native cuts "lousy". Some native cuts are really gorgeous.

I would rather have a native cut in a rare stone that preserves colour and carat weight than a smaller precision cut gem. It's personal preference.

Cut is NOT the most important aspect of coloured gemstones. It is with diamonds but not coloured stones. With coloured stones the most important "C" is colour. I understand some buyers want it all, colour, cut, carat weight etc etc BUT this limits what you can buy if you only buy precision cut gemstones. That's not to say I don't own precision cut gemstones, of course I do, but that's NOT my personal #1 parameter for buying.

ditto: color trumps cut every time.

 

[Pandora II]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Here's a suggestion:

Artistic Precision Cut - of the John Dyer/Bernd Munsteiner ilk... value is mainly in the cutter/cutting not the material itself.

Fancy Precision Cut - snowflakes and other setter's nightmares.

Modern Precision Cut - the non-traditional shapes like Asschers, Octagonal cuts & Radiants. Optically correct with perfect meet-points, symmetry etc

Traditional Precision Cut - traditional shapes like rounds, ovals and cushions and traditional facet patterns, with perfect meet-points, good symmetry and optically correct.

Traditional Cut - as above but meet-points, symmetry and optics may not be perfect.

GCWC - aka Great Colour Wonky Cut.

Poor Cut - guppies, french doors and pancakes


Here's a stone of mine - it was cut on a jamb peg in its country of origin... I think the meet-points are pretty darn good!

 

[PrecisionGem]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

As Dana explained, you can cut to the correct angles, but still have meet points that don't meet, or a poor polish. I think at this point it is due to working fast as compared to careful.

If I'm cutting two round stones, from the exact same material, I can cut them both with the correct same angles, do one in under an hour, and on the other stone spend spend maybe 2.5 to 3 hours. The difference will be on how well the facets meet, the quality of the polish. Then you can go the other extreme to people who are doing cutting for USFG competition where they will spend 30 hours cutting the same stone. This time the meets are examined under a microscope, they are polishing with 200,000 grit polish etc. If you line up all three stones and look at them with just your naked eye at a normal viewing distance they will all look the same. A trained eye will be able to pick out the finer polish as it will have a more water wet look.

So I would guess Chrono, that you spinel is cut to correct angles, but was cut quickly, therefore meets are a little off, the girdle is not really level etc. I don't know as I have not seen the stone in person, just your avitar.

I think it's in Richard's book Secrets of the Gem Trade, something to the effect; "Not all well cut stones are gems, but all gems are well cut."

 

[PrecisionGem]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Here's a suggestion:

Artistic Precision Cut - of the John Dyer/Bernd Munsteiner ilk... value is mainly in the cutter/cutting not the material itself.

Fancy Precision Cut - snowflakes and other setter's nightmares.

Modern Precision Cut - the non-traditional shapes like Asschers, Octagonal cuts & Radiants. Optically correct with perfect meet-points, symmetry etc

Traditional Precision Cut - traditional shapes like rounds, ovals and cushions and traditional facet patterns, with perfect meet-points, good symmetry and optically correct.

Traditional Cut - as above but meet-points, symmetry and optics may not be perfect.

GCWC - aka Great Colour Wonky Cut.

Poor Cut - guppies, french doors and pancakes


Here's a stone of mine - it was cut on a jamb peg in its country of origin... I think the meet-points are pretty darn good!

I think the above you posted makes a lot of sense.

Pandora, from the picture the cut looks very good on that stone.

As a side not, not all native cut stones are done on Jam Peg machines. I see lots of mast style faceting machines in Africa, the same types of machines used in the US and Europe.

 

[mastercutgems]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Very well said Gene

and Pandora I like your style and sense of humor

All of us cutters have good days and better days; I hope my most expensive facet rough will be cut on one of those better days

Most Respectfully;

Dana Reynolds
ASG Certified Supreme Master Gem Cutter #96cge42

 

[T L]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

"Not all well cut stones are gems, but all gems are well cut."

The Logan sapphire, Smithsonian Institution.

 

[LD]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

"Not all well cut stones are gems, but all gems are well cut."

The Logan sapphire, Smithsonian Institution.

A great example of a patio door ............. and a gem that most people would quite like to have in their collection!

 

[Pandora II]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat



Most of the cutters I've seen in SL are using modern machines (although there is modern and MODERN). This particular stone was cut on the traditional equipment by an old guy who apparently just like doing it that way better!

One thing I did find interesting was with moonstone cutting - the vast majority of stones are cut on modern semi-automatic laps, but the very large stones are still cut on the traditional bowstring operated 'hanaporuwa'.

 

[Pandora II]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

I'm rather partial to this one...

It had a little outing to the House of Lords this morning - even got a carriage to itself!

 

[LD]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

I'm rather partial to this one...

It had a little outing to the House of Lords this morning - even got a carriage to itself!

I know! Did you see me?????? My speech was a little short but hey, things to do, people to shake hands with ............

And that's another gem that wouldn't be kicked out of my collection any time soon!

 

[mastercutgems]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

A perfect example of the thread heading...

content in table " can you read a newspaper through this gem???" YES......


LOL

Most respectfully;

Dana Reynolds
ASG Certified Supreme Master Gem Cutter #96cge42

 

[chrono]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Do you think the British Royals might be kind enough to gift me with their stash once they realize their jewels aren't exactly gems due to the terrible cutting?

 

[mastercutgems]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

This was the reason the post was started to begin with....

It is all about the money.... As i am sure that huge sapphire would look more lovely without the honking window; but would it have been world class size??? With a world class price tag???

I think TL hit the nail on the head by posting that picture as it was worth the 30 thousand words that have been spoken on this post...

Bravo TL you nailed it

Most Respectfully;

Dana Reynolds
ASG Certified Supreme Master Gem Cutter #96cge42

 

[Pandora II]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Nope, sorry Chrono - LD and I have first dibs!


I went to see them last Saturday, I might have even acquired an annual pass so I can visit them on a regular basis... The really annoying thing is that you can't take photos... grrr.

My daughter was very taken with the bling but the day out was a big disappointment... she didn't get to see the heads being chopped off. She was actually in tears over it: 'b-but m-mummy I-I w-wanted to w-watch!'

Such a sweet child...

 

[LD]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Nope - LD and I have first dibs!


I went to see them last Saturday, I might have even acquired an annual pass so I can visit them on a regular basis...

My daughter was very taken with the bling but the day out was a big disappointment... she didn't get to see the heads being chopped off. She was actually in tears over it: 'b-but m-mummy I-I w-wanted to w-watch!'

Such a sweet child...

ROTFLMAO - that's just made my day! We're paying a visit to said Tower on 8th July which will be my daughter's second visit BUT the first one she will recall.

I don't know if I've imagined it but have they revamped the displays? Is the travelator still there? Goes way too fast for my liking and I kept having to get back on at the beginning again - I felt positively dizzy by the end of the day .......... or was that the alcohol?

 

[Pandora II]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Yes, De Beers sponsored a new look for the Diamond Jubilee.

It's very nice and a big improvement - although that darn travelator is still there and still going too fast. I also go round again and again and again.

I did notice that Queen Victoria's little diamond crown wasn't there anymore - I was rather partial to it...

They have taken the Imperial Crown out of the main display and it's on its own in a glass case that you can walk round all 4 sides - and get about 6 inches from the 'Black Prince's Ruby' so that was superb.

I went to see the Hirst skull at the Tate a couple of weeks ago and that was pretty good too.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

"Not all well cut stones are gems, but all gems are well cut."

The Logan sapphire, Smithsonian Institution.

I've seen this stone in person many times, and if it were mine, I would recut it in a heartbeat. To me, all stones are basically worthless objects that I appreciate only for the beauty, and I'd much rather make that stone more beautiful. It's not like there is any real worthwhile value to the stone (unless you plan on selling it). To a starving person an apple is worth more.

As always with this thread, one can find extreme exceptions to contradict what has been said.

 

[LD]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Yes, De Beers sponsored a new look for the Diamond Jubilee.

It's very nice and a big improvement - although that darn travelator is still there and still going too fast. I also go round again and again and again.

I did notice that Queen Victoria's little diamond crown wasn't there anymore - I was rather partial to it...

They have taken the Imperial Crown out of the main display and it's on its own in a glass case that you can walk round all 4 sides - and get about 6 inches from the 'Black Prince's Ruby' so that was superb.

I went to see the Hirst skull at the Tate a couple of weeks ago and that was pretty good too.

Ooooo good to know! Thanks Pandora. Not sure we'll get to the Tate - there's a limit to how much culture an 8 year old can absorb on her birthday treat! lol

 

[Arkteia]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

"Not all well cut stones are gems, but all gems are well cut."

The Logan sapphire, Smithsonian Institution.

I've seen this stone in person many times, and if it were mine, I would recut it in a heartbeat. To me, all stones are basically worthless objects that I appreciate only for the beauty, and I'd much rather make that stone more beautiful. It's not like there is any real worthwhile value to the stone (unless you plan on selling it). To a starving person an apple is worth more.

As always with this thread, one can find extreme exceptions to contradict what has been said.

If you are right, then Kenny should send all his FCDs for a recut ASAP. They are worth nothing till he recuts them in a heartbeat!

(Sorry, Kenny).

 

[T L]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

"Not all well cut stones are gems, but all gems are well cut."

The Logan sapphire, Smithsonian Institution.

I've seen this stone in person many times, and if it were mine, I would recut it in a heartbeat. To me, all stones are basically worthless objects that I appreciate only for the beauty, and I'd much rather make that stone more beautiful. It's not like there is any real worthwhile value to the stone (unless you plan on selling it). To a starving person an apple is worth more.

As always with this thread, one can find extreme exceptions to contradict what has been said.

I only picked the Logan because it is an example of a 'gem' that is poorly cut that people are familiar with. There are less extreme exceptions to contradict what you stated. There are beautiful stones all over the world that are far from well cut, and they're not in a royal collection or in a museum either, although there are plenty of poorly cut gems in those arenas as well. Besides, a 'well cut' gem is speculative. What may be your idea, or my idea of 'well cut,' may not be the same for someone else. I think however, most people will agree that the Logan is poorly cut, but its color speaks for itself, and there is a reason the Smithsonian proudly displays this gem.