Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carats?

[RedSpinel]

For years now I've heard about the 4 C's, and how they relate to a stone's value. One of the most important of the 4 C's, is cutting. The operative words of that last sentence were "most important!" So cutting is obviously a very important aspect to ascertaining a gem's value, just like the quality of an artist's work on canvas is important to the painting's value. If the painter just throw a bunch of slop onto a canvas, it wouldnt be worth much(unless he was Picasso or one of the Wyeths).

Now I can understand if a cutter or the owner of a stone were to get hold of a piece of unexciting, olive green colored tourmaline, and decided to cut the stone in such a way to keep more of the stone's weight, so that the stone ends up with a window on the top, or its uneven and lopsided. Who cares? Its not a valuable stone and wont look very pretty anyway.

But when I just saw a Paraiba Tourmaline on another thread, which was cut in this way, so that it was bulging at the bottom, and had a window at the face, I was stunned! I think it's safe to say that Paraiba Tourmalines are worth "just a little more" than an olive tourmaline, right? So if that stone was cut correctly in such a way that it faced up bright and shiny with no window, it would sell for much more money, because its appearance would be greatly enhanced! Otherwise, most people who are looking for Paraiba Tourmalines arent going to spend nearly as much for that stone if it isnt as bright, and has to be re-cut.......Whats the word I'm looking for here...Ahhh, oh yeah! It's DUUUHHHH!

But so many 'Far Eastern' stone buyers and cutters seem to think that if they cut the stone in a lousy fashion, so that a little extra carat weight is saved, that they can then advertise it as a larger stone! But it still looks bad, and wont be worth as much as it would if it was a little smaller, but well cut and bright!

I just showed pics of a 2.82ct mandarin garnet I bought like 8-10 years ago on another thread. The source I bought it from had just been selling gems from that same parcel, which were pretty well cut for $300 per carat the day before. The next day, they broke out this stone which has a window in it, and sold it to me for $100 per carat.

Now lets say they'd cut that stone well the first time, but lost 1 ct in the process, so that the stone weighed in at 1.82 cts instead. They'd still be able to sell it for $300 per carat, which would equal $546.00. But since they were greedy enough to cut it poorly, they were only able to get $282 for it! So even though the stone ended up being 2.82cts the way they chose to cut it to save carat weight, they still were only able to sell it for 1/2 what they wouldve made if it had been cut well to begin with!

What was that word again.....Oh yeah, it's Duuuuhhh!

 

[PrecisionGem]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

In most cutting factories, the cutters are paid by the weight of the stones produced in a day. So it is in their best interest to cut as many, and as heavy a stone as possible. They don't understand the optics of the stone, nor the critical angles, but they understand that weight = $.

 

[minousbijoux]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Occasionally this topic resurfaces and is discussed. Here is a similar thread about cutting and windows I think you'll enjoy:

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/i-am-so-mad-about-windows.167443/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/i-am-so-mad-about-windows.167443/[/URL]

 

[kenny]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

In a word . . .



Few customers understand good cut.
Every customer understands carat weight.

 

[RedSpinel]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

But logic should dictate that their pile of cash should be SMALLER not larger if they cut gems poorly, because customers wont pay top dollar for them....

 

[RedSpinel]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

A related question: Does a rounded pavillion(bottom side) of a gemstone always cause a window, or is it not that cut and dry? Do you need to cut straight facets underneath to get proper light reflection in order to ensure no windowing occurs?

 

[kenny]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

But logic should dictate that their pile of cash should be SMALLER not larger if they cut gems poorly, because customers wont pay top dollar for them....

Few customers (outside Pricescope) understand good cut.
Every customer understands carat weight.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Windowing is caused when a facet is cut at too shallow of an angle. Each gem material, has a critical angle, which if you cut a facet shallower than this angle will cause a window. This is a function of the refractive index of the gem. With the normal step cut style faceting often seen on commercially cut stones, one can follow the natural shape of the stone and place the last 1, 2 or even third tiers of facets below this critical angle. What this does is create a fat belly in the stone that retains weight but creates the windows, looses color and sparkle. To the cutters doing this, this makes total sense to them since they are producing a stone that weighs maybe 25% or more.

I think maybe the final end customer is more concerned about the beauty of the stone, but all the middle men are dealing with parcels and weight, so weight becomes more important.

 

[Enerchi]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

In a word . . .



Few customers understand good cut.
Every customer understands carat weight.

Is this your house Kenny???

 

[Quantz Studios]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

For years now I've heard about the 4 C's, and how they relate to a stone's value. One of the most important of the 4 C's, is cutting.

Now lets say they'd cut that stone well the first time, but lost 1 ct in the process, so that the stone weighed in at 1.82 cts instead. They'd still be able to sell it for $300 per carat, which would equal $546.00. But since they were greedy enough to cut it poorly, they were only able to get $282 for it! So even though the stone ended up being 2.82cts the way they chose to cut it to save carat weight, they still were only able to sell it for 1/2 what they wouldve made if it had been cut well to begin with!

In the time they would have taken to cut that stone the right way the first time they we able to cut 5 others, and that equals more money than if the first stone was cut better and sold for more money.

The "4Cs" dont apply to colored stones. That's a diamond thing. Of course, some of us do scrutinize each of those Cs (cutters, dealers and buyers) when dealing with colored stones, but the world is generally not standardized on anything like that with colored stones.

 

[VAgemguy]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Consumers (PSers excluded) pay top dollar for poorly cut stones all the time. Have a look at what your local mall jeweler sells & the prices associated with them, and you'll see first-hand evidence!

 

[kenny]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

In a word . . .



Few customers understand good cut.
Every customer understands carat weight.

Is this your house Kenny???

No.
That's just a day's wages for one of our footmen.
The pic was taken in the sprawling array of servants quarters a few miles down our private road that runs along the cliffs of our 450,000 acre ranch overlooking the Pacific Ocean between Malibu and Santa Monica California that our great great grandpa bought for 14 bowls of chocolae-covered acorns and an oak barrel of Cuban Rum.






NOT!

 

[maebelle]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

In the time they would have taken to cut that stone the right way the first time they we able to cut 5 others, and that equals more money than if the first stone was cut better and sold for more money.

This is exactly it. You are only thinking about the cost of the rough vs. the price a precision cut stone can bring in and not about the other costs associated with running a cutting warehouse. They are in the bulk business to cut down on overhead. Beleive me: if they really could make more money doing it any other way they would be doing it!

Add the fact that some countries will only let cut stones be exported...

But thankfully we have "niche" precision cutters who cut and re-cut for customers who are more discriminating.

 

[Pandora II]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

That isn't to say that there aren't people cutting amazing stones in these places. I bought some stones in Sri Lanka last year that were precision cut in terms of angles and meet points.

The dealers know that certain buyers will pay more for well-cut stones and they are taking more time over them.

I even bought two very similar sized stones and thought they'd be nicer as a pair - the lapidary came round, we discussed what I wanted, he went away and came back half an hour later with them perfectly matched. No windows, perfect meet-points and I'd lost only 1pt in weight.

The vast majority of the buying public wouldn't know a window if they walked through it.

How many stones are we asked about here that have big windows? The people posting the pictures obviously like the stone or they wouldn't have bothered posting - yet they haven't noticed/don't mind the windows.

Plus if you are a cutter in a developing country and are given a 5ct piece of Paraiba and you turn out a beautifully cut 1ct stone you are much more likely to be in big trouble with the boss than if you turn out a badly cut one that is 4.8ct. You also risk having a pale washed out 1ct versus a well saturated 4 ct with a big window (and I'll take that one please).

Finally, colour is EVERYTHING. Personally I'll live with a window, an off-centre culet and dodgy meet points for top colour, but I don't care how fancy schmancy a cut with nanometre perfect meets a stone is... if I don't like the colour then it's not for me.

Generally cut is the last of the 4 Cs when it comes to coloured stones - especially in the more expensive varieties.

 

[Lula]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

But logic should dictate that their pile of cash should be SMALLER not larger if they cut gems poorly, because customers wont pay top dollar for them....

Few customers (outside Pricescope) understand good cut.
Every customer understands carat weight.

+1
And I'd add my local jewelers don't understand good cut either, just carat weight. Most of them don't know anything about gem treatments either, but that's a whole other thread.

 

[Indylady]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Also, sometimes color is affected by cut--and so its worth it to keep a 'bad' cut for the sake of color.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Also, sometimes color is affected by cut--and so its worth it to keep a 'bad' cut for the sake of color.

So are you saying that a bad cut makes for better color, and a good cut hurts the color?

 

[jeffdvs101]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Give me a 1ct precision cut gem over a 2ct badly cut stone any day, there is no comparison IMO

 

[distracts]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

In a word . . .



Few customers understand good cut.
Every customer understands carat weight.

Is this your house Kenny???

No.
That's just a day's wages for one of our footmen.
The pic was taken in the sprawling array of servants quarters a few miles down our private road that runs along the cliffs of our 450,000 acre ranch overlooking the Pacific Ocean between Malibu and Santa Monica California that our great great grandpa bought for 14 bowls of chocolae-covered acorns and an oak barrel of Cuban Rum.

Enerchi, didn't you know that Kenny's house has colored-diamond-studded walls? I am pretty sure this has been established before. He's just holding out on us with the pics and only photographing the ones that fell out during a wild party, before the repairman could stick them back on the wall.

 

[Arkteia]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

some stones are so darn expensive and rare that you take whatever you are offered, window or no window. Also, when a cutter is working at the material, there may be some rough remaining which can not be cut in a good way (e.g. is not "plump" enough, but it is still rough), is is cut whatever way is possible to retain weight. This may have happened in your case, when they cut beautiful stones but the remaining rough was cut in a bad way. I might make a post about a very good local cutter basically, cutting in a native way (per agreement with me), because the rough that I bought was flat and most of the color was on the tips. A good stone which is precision cut may look unbelievably well, but with rare stones of small sizes (such as benitoite or hayune or red beryl) ir may not be feasible. I am currently searching for a rare expensive stone, and might have to accept native cut, provided the window has the potential of closing in a setting.

 

[ChrisA222]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

I fully appreciate a good or a great cut...to me it is as important as color. Pandora has made it clear that she doesn't prioritize cutting, Color is King to her, and thats fine. Everyone has a different opinion on it and nobody is "right". While I generally want my stone to perform well..I dont mind sacrificing weight, or color. Id rather have a brilliant paler stone than a dead looking darker stone..even if that darker color is valued more..or rarer..etc.

That being said, RS, some cases you just can't do a recut..and that example IS that Paraiba. That stone is worth so MUCH due to its rarity, that you have to make an exception in this case. The loss of ct weight would be trememdous to fix that window. The stone is too valuable to lose the weight. Its the opposite of where you are coming from, lol. Sometimes yes, maybe most times..cutting will improve the "value" because it will look better. But sometimes the re cutting, which always comes with some sacrifices, just doesn't make sense. You cannot alter that Paraiba...you just cant. It is too rare, especially in that size. I hope you get what Im saying...

 

[Edward Bristol]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Well, yes, sure, everybody wants good cutting, BUT:

We offer our customers re-cuts on expensive sapphires and rubies whenever useful and possible.

No cost for the buyer; only the weight-loss has to be covered by the new owner.

Result: Nine out of ten customers, in the end, decide to go with the not-so-perfect cutting and keep the weight.

If we want precision cutting on high-end stones we have to on our own account.

 

[JewelFreak]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

If the buyers weren't there for poorly cut higher-weight stones, vendors would not want them. If most gem customers insisted on no windows, good meet points, etc., cutting stones to lower standards to preserve weight wouldn't be profitable, but those are the bread & butter of commercial cutters -- mall stores & their online equivalent are full of them because they sell. P.T. Barnum's maxim applies in gems to the max. On the other hand, who's to say someone's a sucker if they get something that makes them happy though it's a piece of dreck? (High-end buyers excepted -- not-so-hot cuts appear in the big auction houses from time to time & sell for bundles to people impressed by size.)

For a very expensive & rare gem, sacrificing ct- weight is a major consideration & I suppose each cutter has to consider the trade-off based on the individual stone's characteristics & his market. (I doubt those are whacked off in a commercial operation -- correct me if I'm wrong.) Cut is really important to me -- I just about swoon at a beautifully done one, but would not buy a poorly saturated stone no matter how good the cut. Unfortunately I'll never have to make that decision for a Paraiba.

--- Laurie

 

[PrecisionGem]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

You are right, most people don't care about the cut much, and most people don't care about a glass filled ruby or be treated sapphire either. Many people are very happy with an inky black sapphire, or a lopsided windowed stone. But what isn't true is that poor cutting makes better color. It's just the opposite.

 

[LD]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

I really take issue with calling native cuts "lousy". Some native cuts are really gorgeous.

I would rather have a native cut in a rare stone that preserves colour and carat weight than a smaller precision cut gem. It's personal preference.

Cut is NOT the most important aspect of coloured gemstones. It is with diamonds but not coloured stones. With coloured stones the most important "C" is colour. I understand some buyers want it all, colour, cut, carat weight etc etc BUT this limits what you can buy if you only buy precision cut gemstones. That's not to say I don't own precision cut gemstones, of course I do, but that's NOT my personal #1 parameter for buying.

 

[Pandora II]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

I really take issue with calling native cuts "lousy". Some native cuts are really gorgeous.

I would rather have a native cut in a rare stone that preserves colour and carat weight than a smaller precision cut gem. It's personal preference.

Cut is NOT the most important aspect of coloured gemstones. It is with diamonds but not coloured stones. With coloured stones the most important "C" is colour. I understand some buyers want it all, colour, cut, carat weight etc etc BUT this limits what you can buy if you only buy precision cut gemstones. That's not to say I don't own precision cut gemstones, of course I do, but that's NOT my personal #1 parameter for buying.

 

[Pandora II]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

You are right, most people don't care about the cut much, and most people don't care about a glass filled ruby or be treated sapphire either. Many people are very happy with an inky black sapphire, or a lopsided windowed stone. But what isn't true is that poor cutting makes better color. It's just the opposite.

Poor cutting doesn't 'make' better colour, but precision cutting can risk a big difference in colour and saturation from the potential afforded by rough unless you are aiming for a very small stone.

There are reasons why the Hope Diamond has a big window...

I visited the Tower of London yesterday and a huge number of the famous stones in the Crown Jewels have dodgy cuts and windows - but there are plenty of them that I wouldn't kick out of bed.

There is also a big difference between precision cuts in terms of 'fancy' computer designed cuts and precision cutting using a traditional cut but with precise meet points.

 

[mastercutgems]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

I will agree on many of the different posts or opinions on this topic... No I am not riding the middle of the fence here.

I will agree with Gene; I have never seen a colored gem that had a huge window in it I thought was lovely??? But I do agree with LD that many gems of non western cutting techniques have a glow and really accentuate the color opposed to the brilliance or reflected light those cuts are known for; take a medium toned orange spessartite garnet; I have not found a cut better than a step cut with some bulge factor; BUT cut at angles that do not create the window effect... But it is a case by case situation as most gem minerals deserve that attention to detail as it took them a long time to grow and they are rare...

That said I think there is room for the "native" style of cutting and also the western style of cutting. Of course being a western cutter I do prefer that; but on strange occasions I will cut a step design on some of those type gems as I really think the "trap" type cut does trap in light holding it in and allow the color to glow... BUT the cutter must follow the hard rules of optics and not cut below critical angle of said mineral to keep that darn window out as that really does hurt the looks of any gem ... Just one cutter's personal opinion...

Also Gene is right; many cutting houses do not take critical angles of the mineral in hand into the scenario as they are not schooled in those sciences; it is really " get as much as you can out of the gem in carat weight" as that is more money and Kenny is right in that aspect; many times it is all about the money at hand; not how it will sell in one particular market or another as many times the cutter has no clue where the gem will sell???
I know looking at it from a consumer standpoint; it makes no sense to poorly cut any gem; that is with a huge window; all table, no table, or anything that will truly hurt the optics of a very finely colored natural mineral...

So I guess what it all boils down to is buy what you like and can afford; if you can only find the mineral in a windowed lifeless gem; buy as big as you can and as deep a gem as you can and find a cutter to do his or her magic on it. But as many know beauty is in the eyes of the beholder and never let anyone on this forum or any other avenue tell you what you should or should not like. That is your choice and enjoy who you are and what you like

Most Respectfully;

Dana Reynolds
ASG Certified Supreme Master Gem Cutter # 96CGE42

 

[chrono]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Because Cut is man made while Colour cannot be man made. Well....okay, man can tamper and alter colour which depending on how invasive the treatment is, but the stone's market price will be affected downwards compared to a stone that comes out of the ground looking great. Remember, while cut is an important C, it is not the most important C. Colour is King in the coloured stone world.

Let's say, there are 4 pieces of rough - two really great ones and two poor quality rough.
Good rough - one precision cut, one poorly cut.
Poor rough - one precision cut, one poorly cut.

When done, put side by side, this is what you will see from most attractive to the ugliest.
Precision cut good rough, poor cut good rough, precision cut poor rough, poor cut poor rough.

See, I have absolutely nothing against precision cut and I detest poor cutting. BUT, there are some really good "native cuts" out there with little to no windowing, little to no extinction, decent symmetry and polish and etc. Fine material is so rare and expensive that it is painful (and costly) to watch large amounts of it shaved off, so the cutter tries to maintain a balance of retaining the material and acheiving beauty (cut quality).

Whereas a cut can improve the appearance of poor quality rough, there is only so much a lapidary can do to improve the colour. Pandora and LD explain this so much better than I can, but yes, I agree with their reasoning.

http://www.palagems.com/quality_4cs.htm
As you can read here, colour is the first C. The most important part of coloured gemstones. Not only that, all the Cs are related to each other in some fashion.

Quote from the link:
Summing up cut. While these guidelines may be useful, one must not become a slave to them. In essence, the cut should display the gem’s beauty to best advantage, while not presenting setting or durability problems. If the gem is beautifully cut, things such as depth percentage or length-to-width ratio matter not one bit. What works, works. The eye, the mind and the heart are the final arbitrators, not numbers. One final note about cut. The most expensive colored gems (particularly colored diamonds and rubies) often feature misshapen proportions and symmetry. This is because the value of the material is so high that the cutter strives to save every point in weight.

 

[mastercutgems]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Poor rough is poor rough... Good rough is good rough...


You can mess up a perfectly good piece of rough by putting a poor cut on it not adhering to sound, hard, scientific optical properties... like critical angles, etc. BUT you can make a gem of poor quality look much better with a very fine cut as you can mask inclusions with facets and brilliance.

I know when I was in competition they wanted you to cut gems with some inclusions as to show your capabilities to hide them under crown facets, etc. as i am sure good cutters like Gene and many others have done. So you can make a gem of lesser quality look better with a very fine cut...

The old saying you cannot make a silk purse from a sow's ear holds true; but you can make the sow's ear a little more lovely

Most respectfully;

Dana Reynolds
ASG Certified Supreme Master Gem Cutter # 96 CGE42