Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carats?

[chrono]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Also, just to clarify -
When it comes to regular, meaning more common and inexpensive gemstones, I expect very good cutting although not necessarily precision cut. There is no reason to accept windowed stones and etc. The reason being is that the material is abundant and it isn't painful cost wise to cut off much of it to make it look its best.

 

[kenny]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Enerchi, didn't you know that Kenny's house has colored-diamond-studded walls? I am pretty sure this has been established before. He's just holding out on us with the pics and only photographing the ones that fell out during a wild party, before the repairman could stick them back on the wall.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

One thing that many of you that are commenting don't know, since I am assuming you have never cut a stone is, a good cut doesn't always mean a smaller stone. I would bet in most cases if the same piece of rough was given to a highly skilled "precision cutter", and a typical cutting house, the precision cutter would often end up with a larger stone, and a much more beautiful stone. Lets not mix up this thread with re cutting an already cut stone. Of course you can't recut a stone and make it bigger. But had that piece of rough not been cut in the first place, it's quite possible a proper cut could be made that was just as large or larger, especially if you are talking about face up size. Sometimes I'll spend hours or even days thinking about the best approach to cutting a stone. IN a cutting house where you must cut 30 stones a day not this much thought can be put into the stone.

 

[chrono]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Gene,
The "problem" is that most lapidaries do not have the finances that a big cutting house has in order to procure fine quality material. If all is equal, meaning the precision cutter and cutting house has the exact same piece of rough, the one that is more beautiful will be the one that has better cutting, usually the precision cut stone. The highly skilled lapidary who is able to balance the difficult task of weight retention and stone performance will win every time hands down. As to it being larger than the end result of the stone faceted by the cutting house, I am not so sure. Weight retention is a pretty big priority for them. Ah, when you are talking face up size, yes, I agree with you there and this also only applies to rough, not recuts.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

I talked with a guy who runs a large cutting house in Hong Kong. He was actually one of the big donators last week at one of the dinners in Tanzania. He told me they average around 15% yield in has facility, but do produce 30 stones per person per day. I average 33% yield. Some of this higher number has to do with the fact that I normally select pieces for good shape, but it also has do do with a more well thought out approach to the cut, and a variety a different designs.

 

[LD]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Gene - may I ask a question please because I'm genuinely interested in weight retention/cutting............

Say you have a piece of expensive or relatively unusual rough exactly the same as a "native" cutter. You evaluate it to determine a final shape/cut. I presume the "native" cutter will do the same. You will most probably come up with different shapes/designs. The native cutter will, I presume, look to preserve weight using as much of the material as possible so will limit the number of facets. You will look to cut a beautiful stone utilising the rough as best you can. Presumably you will cut more facets and be more precise with facet meets.

So, if all that is correct, I don't understand how the precision cut can be bigger than the native cut? By the very nature of precision cutting you are having to cut away more of the material so whilst I can understand you might get a gem that matches the native cut stone (although common sense tells me that it would be smaller) I don't understand how you could end up with a bigger gem?

 

[bobsiv]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

I'll jump in here because I think this is an interesting topic. The number of facets has little to do with weight retention. In fact, more facets would hypothetically enable better weight retention. Imagine a perfectly round piece of rough that you want to cut a perfect sphere from. The more facets you have, the more your finished sphere will weigh. From a precision cutting standpoint the number of facets has more to due with the optical properties of the material (specifically the refractive index). Typically higher RI materials are cut with more facets. From a commersial cutting standpoint, the number of facets (like everything else) has more to do with the amount of time it takes to cut the stone.

Like Gene, I will spend a long time agonizing over a piece of nice rough to get an extra 0.1 mm of finished face-up size. A commercial cutter can't afford to do that, so even though they have an advantage by their willingness to belly a stone or cut a flat, windowed stone, the amount of work a precision cutter can invest will likely result in a better yield. I'm also over 30% on my stones, although I spend a lot of time and effort selecting well-shaped rough. The large cutting houses have to cut all the stuff I wouldn't because 15% is simply the best it will yield.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

While I was in Africa last week, I remember commenting to my wife how much larger a yield a typical western farmer would get from the same land that was being farmed by the locals. Although these locals have been farming their entire lives, as have their ancestors, they just don't have the same access to knowledge and tools that the western farmer will have.

The same is true with cutting the stone. I think we do a better job of the original doping of the stone, and also selecting a design to maximize it. Normally they will cut ovals, rounds and maybe a few other shapes. They are not going to spend the same amount of time planing the stone out, and for some reason, these commercial cutters cut very shallow crowns. No I'm not saying this is true with everyone, the original thread was "please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carats". Certainly there are cutters who are maybe not working in a mass produced facility that are cutting for beauty not just qty and speed. The main point is this, they have nothing at their disposal that a precision cutter doesn't have, but we have a lot they don't. We have computer models of the stones, very accurate faceting machines and more importantly the desire to produce beauty. With a modern faceting machine you can cut shapes that a jam peg cutter can not, and still maintain symmetry.

People in the US or Europe are not cutting because they are making money from it, they are doing it because they love it. They may make some money, but that isn't the driving force. These other people are doing it to survive.

LD I think the much talked about Paraiba tourmaline is yours. If one of the fine cutters who frequent this board had cut the same rough, I'm confident it would be the same size or close to it, and much much more attractive. The downside is, you would have paid more for it because it would have been worth more, but you wouldn't always be thinking about getting it re-cut either.

 

[chrono]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

I don't get it at all. If the cutting houses are cutting for maximum weight retention, then why are they throwing away 85% of the material? It sounds contradictory.

If the cutting house cuts less facets and follows the shape of the rough more closely (be it a shallow piece of material or shaped deeply in its original form), shouldn't there be greater material retention aka greater cutting yield? To get the optimal angles, it requires a higher crown so steeper faceting is required. So which one wastes more material…a flat stone that follows the shape of the rough or one with a high crown. So in the end, how can the precision cut stone end up bigger than a native cut stone?

 

[chrono]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

While I was in Africa last week, I remember commenting to my wife how much larger a yield a typical western farmer would get from the same land that was being farmed by the locals. Although these locals have been farming their entire lives, as have their ancestors, they just don't have the same access to knowledge and tools that the western farmer will have.

A little off-topic here but modern farming methods also has its own downsides. We sacrifice other things to increase yield such as reducing the diversity of crops which now are less resistent to "new" diseases and insect infestation until the labs come up with a new seed variety, polluting our waters with fertilizer run-off, and etc.

The same is true with cutting the stone. I think we do a better job of the original doping of the stone, and also selecting a design to maximize it. Normally they will cut ovals, rounds and maybe a few other shapes. They are not going to spend the same amount of time planing the stone out, and for some reason, these commercial cutters cut very shallow crowns. No I'm not saying this is true with everyone, the original thread was "please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carats". Certainly there are cutters who are maybe not working in a mass produced facility that are cutting for beauty not just qty and speed. The main point is this, they have nothing at their disposal that a precision cutter doesn't have, but we have a lot they don't. We have computer models of the stones, very accurate faceting machines and more importantly the desire to produce beauty. With a modern faceting machine you can cut shapes that a jam peg cutter can not, and still maintain symmetry.

Wouldn't that shallow crown help preserve weight? Steeper angles mean cutting away more material?

People in the US or Europe are not cutting because they are making money from it, they are doing it because they love it. They may make some money, but that isn't the driving force. These other people are doing it to survive.

LD I think the much talked about Paraiba tourmaline is yours. If one of the fine cutters who frequent this board had cut the same rough, I'm confident it would be the same size or close to it, and much much more attractive. The downside is, you would have paid more for it because it would have been worth more, but you wouldn't always be thinking about getting it re-cut either.

And here is another "issue". Fine material rarely lands in the hands of Western precision cutters. If and when it does, the price becomes astronomical and priced out of the average people's budgets.

 

[kenny]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

The closer the rough is to the final shape the less loss there will be.

I think some cutters are stuck with rough of unfortunate shapes that result in more weight loss like this.



Perhaps you are a cutter who can cherry pick rough that has a "less-lossy" shape . . .

 

[PrecisionGem]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

While I was in Africa last week, I remember commenting to my wife how much larger a yield a typical western farmer would get from the same land that was being farmed by the locals. Although these locals have been farming their entire lives, as have their ancestors, they just don't have the same access to knowledge and tools that the western farmer will have.

A little off-topic here but modern farming methods also has its own downsides. We sacrifice other things to increase yield such as reducing the diversity of crops which now are less resistent to "new" diseases and insect infestation until the labs come up with a new seed variety, polluting our waters with fertilizer run-off, and etc.

The same is true with cutting the stone. I think we do a better job of the original doping of the stone, and also selecting a design to maximize it. Normally they will cut ovals, rounds and maybe a few other shapes. They are not going to spend the same amount of time planing the stone out, and for some reason, these commercial cutters cut very shallow crowns. No I'm not saying this is true with everyone, the original thread was "please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carats". Certainly there are cutters who are maybe not working in a mass produced facility that are cutting for beauty not just qty and speed. The main point is this, they have nothing at their disposal that a precision cutter doesn't have, but we have a lot they don't. We have computer models of the stones, very accurate faceting machines and more importantly the desire to produce beauty. With a modern faceting machine you can cut shapes that a jam peg cutter can not, and still maintain symmetry.

Wouldn't that shallow crown help preserve weight? Steeper angles mean cutting away more material?

That would depend on the shape of the rough. Shallow crowns usually mean ugly stones.

People in the US or Europe are not cutting because they are making money from it, they are doing it because they love it. They may make some money, but that isn't the driving force. These other people are doing it to survive.

LD I think the much talked about Paraiba tourmaline is yours. If one of the fine cutters who frequent this board had cut the same rough, I'm confident it would be the same size or close to it, and much much more attractive. The downside is, you would have paid more for it because it would have been worth more, but you wouldn't always be thinking about getting it re-cut either.

And here is another "issue". Fine material rarely lands in the hands of Western precision cutters. If and when it does, the price becomes astronomical and priced out of the average people's budgets.

I don't think this is true at all. You have to know where to buy rough, looking around eBay auctions for rough is not any indication of what is available. I had a rough tanzanite in my hand last week that would have cut a $30,000 stone. Any really good material is going to be high priced no matter who cuts it. You keep flip flopping on what we are talking about. Are we talking about the average stone, or the top 1% ?

 

[Enerchi]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

In a word . . .



Few customers understand good cut.
Every customer understands carat weight.

Is this your house Kenny???

No.
That's just a day's wages for one of our footmen.
The pic was taken in the sprawling array of servants quarters a few miles down our private road that runs along the cliffs of our 450,000 acre ranch overlooking the Pacific Ocean between Malibu and Santa Monica California that our great great grandpa bought for 14 bowls of chocolae-covered acorns and an oak barrel of Cuban Rum.






NOT!

Oh Kenny!!! You made me LAUGH OUT LOUD!!! Good one!!! And Distracts - love the wild party image with the diamonds falling from the walls!!!

(sorry to interrupt the very informative and intelligent thread - this is one I am enjoying and I am glad the experts are so forthcoming with sharing their knowledge - thank you!)

 

[mastercutgems]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

For an example....

I have rough, lots of rough; some I was able to cherry pick some I had to buy in a lot... Not mine run; but say 1/4 kilo or in that neighborhood... But I have been cutting and buying for over 20 years now.

Many of the gems ( of course the larger ones or the ones with the best color or shape); Grey and I will cut ourselves. Others I will send to my friend in Sri Lanka that has a cutting house... And i have tried many cutting houses; they are not all equal at by any stretch of the imagination...

IF I do not tell them how I want them cut; or just say " get me the highest yield" I will get the cuts with the highest yield and I will bet you any amount of money you want; I as a cutter will not be happy with those gems... BUT the mentality behind the cutting will be; I gotta get that man the biggest stone I can out of this crappy rough; which will usually be wide and shallow; which when cut into a (usually oval) roval gem it will look like a washtub and you could read a newspaper through the table... Or it will be rounded like an acorn and they will have missed critical angle by 5 degrees; but it is faceted and polished well...

But that same cutting house; if I send them faceting diagrams and mark the bags with what cuts I want for which material depending on the color saturation, mineral type, etc. and instruct them; take your time I will pay you extra... I will get a gem that most people would be proud to put in a ring or pendant...

So it all depends on what you ask for as many of those "Native cutters" are very good cutters; but lack direction on what the person wants; as it may be the person who is asking for them to cut the gems... does not have a clue as to what they have or how it will be best cut... All they are thinking is I paid 2500 dollars for that 1/2 kilo and I want to make 5 times what I paid and so my yield had better be good...

I know Gene as well as many other cutters on this and other forums think very highly of their facet rough as i do also as most do not have a clue as to how much crap we wade through to get a decent contact or piece of unadulterated facet rough; Gene is correct we do not make much money off the stuff either; but it does pay the bills as long as you do not have many bills...And we take our time in orienting the rough for the best cut; as we are caretakers of that mineral that took many hundreds of years to grow and we should not waste it in any way...

But when it comes to getting my stones cut overseas I take a lot of time and details to explain how I want things cut; much like when I sit down to cut a gem or re-cut a gem; it all takes time and it also takes experience as some things you have to learn the hard way...Us cutters are a different lot and we will not look at a gem the way many who just buy them do; we even critique our own work which is why it is hard to not say something on this forum when we see something so blatant; but still have to button our lip to keep from being scolded LOL

But this question which is at the heading can easily be answered and really already was by Kenny; it is about the money; they can make a big oval with a huge belly or bulge factor that will be very hard for any standard mount to hold it; they have no crown as they did all their work on the bottom to keep up the weight. I will say it is more of a hourly wage job to them than us western cutters as we really like saying " I cut that " and this is what it looked like before I cut it... And when you have someone breathing down your back to make production; it kind of takes the pride out of making it really pretty as in the end many of those cutters will think... I will never see or meet the person that will buy this gem; so I earned my 3 dollars for the day and I can eat...

Hopefully things will change; and when I do have my rough cut in Sri Lanka I pay extra for them taking their time and I also buy dinner for all the cutters when they get a parcel done; as it is my way of saying I thank you for looking after my rough and taking your time to get the most beauty you can from it.

But this is why this forum is here.... It is to teach the consumer what a window is; a bulge factor is , scintillation, tilt windows and all those other things that can and will sometimes make a gem not the best buy on the street... But personal preference is not an issue here as to liking or not liking the more native style or western style of cutting; that is like I said earlier; the beauty is in the eyes of the beholder and no two eyes are going to agree on all gems or types of cuts that are out there; not even us cutters agree; as some cuts I totally dislike and some I love; other cutters/consumers and I will agree to disagree on that issue; but the cold hard facts of faceting and gemology optics we will agree on as they are the cold hard facts of science...

Wow I talk too much LOL

But those that know me I mean no ill will

Most Respectfully;

Dana Reynolds
ASG Certified Supreme Master gem Cutter # 96CGE42

 

[LD]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

I am surprised at the loss Gene that you have been told the foreign cutters have. I've got a meeting in two weeks with a friend who runs a very well known jewellery company and buys gemstones worldwide. He's always abroad and has his own cutters so I'll be interested to see what he says about yield. I will post up what he says.

Thanks for the informative posts.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

I am surprised at the loss Gene that you have been told the foreign cutters have. I've got a meeting in two weeks with a friend who runs a very well known jewellery company and buys gemstones worldwide. He's always abroad and has his own cutters so I'll be interested to see what he says about yield. I will post up what he says.

Thanks for the informative posts.

I'm sure it varies depending on what is being cut. Some stones are shaped well most of time like a Montana Sapphire. They are often very nice round little balls, and if you cut them as rounds you can often get over 40%. Spinel is often crazy shapes and hard to get 25%.

The guy I was thinking about in Hong Kong, I was having breakfast with him and a rough dealer from Kenya. He was buying red zircon rough in a large parcel. I had previously gone through the parcel and picked out about 6 or 7 pieces. I paid a higher price for the selection, he took the rest of the parcel. He thought they would get 15% from the stones, I was looking at double that for my self. To be fair, I selected the better pieces so I didn't have the odd shapes to work with. Sometimes you can do creative things with the odd shapes. THe artists who do some of the fantasy cuts will buy these and can get over 50% on them.

All all a function of what your niche is. To some it's to turn around a parcel fast, to others it's one at a time trying to create perfection. THere is a market for everything

 

[RedSpinel]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

I really take issue with calling native cuts "lousy". Some native cuts are really gorgeous.

I would rather have a native cut in a rare stone that preserves colour and carat weight than a smaller precision cut gem. It's personal preference.

Cut is NOT the most important aspect of coloured gemstones. It is with diamonds but not coloured stones. With coloured stones the most important "C" is colour. I understand some buyers want it all, colour, cut, carat weight etc etc BUT this limits what you can buy if you only buy precision cut gemstones. That's not to say I don't own precision cut gemstones, of course I do, but that's NOT my personal #1 parameter for buying.

But, would you knowingly buy a stone of good material, that had a big, obvious window in the center, even if that window caused the color to be too light in the window, just because its good material?
See, thats the issue I have with a few of my stones. I have a few stones that have windows, but the material is of good quality. But I dont want to look into a window every time I see the stone.... I want it to look good! I dont care if I lose 25-35% of the stone's weight, as long as it still faces up well.

The mandarin spess I mentioned in the OP is very good quality, pure orange material, and the only downside to it is that Its a little bit lighter than the grade A+ prime mandarin Garnets, but I've seen stones cut well from this same material, that were absolutely beautiful, and incredibly bright! There arent too many other gems out there that are even capable of being as bright as a mandarin garnet, if its cut well...

So I'd rather not leave this Spess at its current 2.82cts if instead I can have it recut to 1.82- 2.2cts and it will be bright as all get out!

 

[RedSpinel]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

One thing that many of you that are commenting don't know, since I am assuming you have never cut a stone is, a good cut doesn't always mean a smaller stone. I would bet in most cases if the same piece of rough was given to a highly skilled "precision cutter", and a typical cutting house, the precision cutter would often end up with a larger stone, and a much more beautiful stone. Lets not mix up this thread with re cutting an already cut stone. Of course you can't recut a stone and make it bigger. But had that piece of rough not been cut in the first place, it's quite possible a proper cut could be made that was just as large or larger, especially if you are talking about face up size. Sometimes I'll spend hours or even days thinking about the best approach to cutting a stone. IN a cutting house where you must cut 30 stones a day not this much thought can be put into the stone.

In your post you referred to good cutters as "Precision Cutters."

When people refer to me and my cutting skill, I prefer to be addressed as "Grand Master Cutter", or "Lord Grand Master Cutter"

No, seriously though I pretty much dont know squat about the cutting end of it, except for what I've read. But it makes perfect sense that a highly skilled cutter could do a better job of mapping a stone, and therefore that person would probably be able to better pick the appropriate gem shape in order to get the most carat weight out of a particular piece of rough.

Not only that, but they would probably be better at shaping the stone in such a way to save weight, and create a bright stone at the same time.

But after reading many posts on this topic, I now better understand why the high volume cutters end up choosing weight over cut quality. I guess not everyone thinks like most people here do, and many people dont know about, or care if there is a big, fat window in their stone! Most people in the world dont take the time to learn about gems. They just ask their boyfriend or girlfriend to go and buy them a ring, or necklace, and the significant other, who is tasked with the purchase probably doesnt know much about gems and proper cutting either, as all they are thinking about is the "reward" they are about to receive after gifting a piece of jewelry!

 

[PrecisionGem]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

...
all they are thinking about is the "reward" they are about to receive after gifting a piece of jewelry!

That's really funny, and true.

 

[Arkteia]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

I wanted to post this story a long time ago. Once upon a time, devastated with the prices for mint garnets, and the colors that I did not like, I decided to buy my own rough. I had no experience, did not consult anyone, just bought the piece and commissioned Jerry Newman to cut me a garnet. He immediately pointed out that a) the rough was flat, not plump, and b) that most color was concentrated on the tips. He gave me two choices, one, to cut the stone that would produce maximal optical performance, but that would mean 20% yield + sacrificing the saturated tips. The approximate weight would make 1.5 ct, the dimensions making 8 x 6.5. Two, to cut a stone that would make more yield, but not provide best optical performance. Technically, a native cut. After looking at all pros and cons, and considering the price of the rough, I opted for higher yield. So the stone that I got was 2.4 ct, 34% yield, and the proportions were far from ideal, 10 x 6.5 mm. I got a larger stone, spent less money per carat of the rough (otherwise it would have been too expensive), and more saturated portions of the stone were preserved. The shape is far from ideal, but to me it is a good illustration of everything what a good cutter should be. Look at possible options, educate the customer, give him the opportunity to make an informed choice and then do the best work he can once the decision has been made. Someone else in my place might have said, I want a smaller stone which would be precision cut, Jerry would have done it for him. I chose the size and the color.

Shown here are Jerry's photos and my photo. Sorry, Jerry, my, as usual, is awful, but I hope people can have an idea of how my mint garnet looks like...

 

[chrono]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Gene,

I've read often enough that ovals and sometimes rounds are cut because most rough have a tendency to be that shape (best suited as the final shape). Is that not true? Also, I have seen precision cut stones that aren't well cut. I do not know if computer modeling was used, but the lapidary cut a spessartite that showed a huge tilt window! I did not expect to see such things in a higher RI stone like a garnet.

I doubt the cutting houses are getting their rough from eBay auctions. Perhaps I have not been clear but I am taking about all sorts of lapidaries from all over the world. The cutting houses, those native cuts in high end stones (superb colour but flawed in the cut category), and everything in between. I hear a lot of talk that big Chinese cutting houses are buying up both good and poor material. So does that mean they are losing 85% of the rough on both the cheapo material and also the expensive material? Can you please clarify?

Perhaps PSers are savvy shoppers because I don't think LD paid a ton for her Paraiba and that looks like good material to me. I also find it difficult to believe that whoever cut her stone only got a 15% yield from it. It's obviously not precision cut but I have no idea if it was a cutting house or a "native" private lapidary.

 

[chrono]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Dana,
What you wrote seems to contradict Gene. He wrote in a previous post that the yield will be 15% (or a very low number) and yet, you wrote that they are going for maximum yield. So which is which? Even if the parcel will have odd shaped rough, to get the most out of the rough, would the cutting houses not try to stay with the general shape of the rough? I had a funny moment there imagining myself as a native cutter sitting on a wooden stool in some dim shack hacking away at a piece of rough to make it an ovalish shaped stone with absolutely no worries about the final outcome because it's okay to only get less than a 20% yield and no thought as to how much the boss paid for it.

ETA,
You send some of your rough to overseas cutting houses? You are free not to answer this but why?

To all,
I see two types of flawed native cutting, one that is shallow and flat and the other is deep bellied. I suppose both were done in an attempt to follow the shape of the rough. At least with the deep stones, there is enough material there to make the colour appear richer and deeper. The flat shallow stones are just major light leakers. I've also seen some really good native cutting and I have no idea who did those. The meet points are not perfect but the symmetry and polish is good to the naked eye. Some even have excellent crown height. Let's use Tan's ebay stones as example. He has both terribly cut and beautifully cut "native" or non-precision stones. Who is cutting the nice ones? Why not follow the weight retention motto?

 

[chrono]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

But, would you knowingly buy a stone of good material, that had a big, obvious window in the center, even if that window caused the color to be too light in the window, just because its good material? See, thats the issue I have with a few of my stones. I have a few stones that have windows, but the material is of good quality. But I dont want to look into a window every time I see the stone.... I want it to look good! I dont care if I lose 25-35% of the stone's weight, as long as it still faces up well.

It depends on the quality of the material and its rarity. If I know that I can get something of the same colour but with better cutting, I will hold out and keep looking. Also, it depends on how badly cut in it. I don't mind a small window at all. A medium sized window will depend on the rarity of the stone and super fineness of colour. I will not accept a gaping bay door.

I do not consider spessartites to be rare material. Finding something of excellent colour is possible, especially in sizes under 3 carats. Threfore, based on the above two criteria, I would not purchase a badly windowed or some other obviously flawed spessartite.

Cutting is not a cut and dried process. If the stone is originally shallow, it will not face up with the original dimension after the recut as it is not physically possible. Yes, it will be livelier and brilliant but there is also some inherent risks in the trade-off with losing tone (and with loss of tone comes loss of saturation). And yes, at least you will see colour in the middle instead of seeing right through it. Perhaps a balance of retaining weight and minimizing the window will be a good middle ground. In some other gem types, zoning will also become more apparent. Then, there is also drop in market value. In some gems, there are price jumps at certain carat weight points. This is less obvious on stones under 2 carats.

 

[mastercutgems]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Hi Chrono

Many times the boss as you say of the cutting house does not own the rough. I most of the time work with a broker that will deal with the cutting house owner; who employs the cutters in that particular house and there are many houses that deal with certain mineral types and particular cuts like cabochon, etc... Usually the broker is also a cutter like my friend Ahmed that was in the American Society of Gem Cutters like myself as that is where we met.

As for being contradictory to Gene it will all depend on what the owner of the rough wants; some may say they want all round brilliants; then there may only be a 12% gain; as that client may have a need for say 4mm rounds for their jewelry design. Other cases there will be a 35% yield as the client will say get the most you can out of the rough as I do not care what shape or calibration size; just get me high return; then you will get the acorns, rovals, abstracts, huge bulge factor pavilions, etc... But it will depend on the rough and if it is wide and shallow that is what you will get... a wide polished oval that is wide and flat; but polished... high yield per the rough but not really worthy of gold in these days...

Then you will have people like me who are cutters that will take the time to evaluate your rough and separate it as to the type of cut and shape and you may get 25% to 30 % yield; but those are averages and nothing etched in stone but a general rule of thumb... But you have taken the time to pick the cut per the shape and type of mineral rough to better aid the cutting house and the broker to get them to the right cutting house for the best cut. They are not created equal just as cutters here in the states; some are better than others; and many times you do get what you pay for...

As for your question about why I send rough to get cut overseas; I came to the conclusion many years ago I have more facet rough than me and 4 more cutters will not be able to cut in our lifetime cutting 8 hours a day 5 days a week. I bought heavy when I owned my other corporation as I was single and made good money; that was an outlet as I worked all the time; I found rough contacts/ mine owners all over the globe and I bought a lot of rough; parcels of 5000 carats at a time. etc., then after doing that for 10 years I came into doing this for my living for the trade only. Too much rough and too little time to cut it all. So I tried many cutting houses in Sri Lanka,Thailand, and here recently Tanzania. Much of the rough i send out now is very fine rough but smaller than I or my friend Grey want to cut. So it is easier for me to send those gems and gems like Topaz, amethyst, citrine, some tourmalines and the smaller rough to them to have cut as the rough is very nice but smaller than we want to cut as we have bigger rough to cut. Time is money and it is just basic business sense to cut a 100 dollar a carat gem opposed to a 10 dollar a carat gem...

Also RedSpinel if you were jesting about my title I earned it and they named it not I; it does sound a little on the pampas side; but it is what it is... It was not a gift bestowed on me but many tests both written and oral and although they do not offer it any longer which to me is a shame; I am honored to be one of the few that have it.

Most respectfully;

Dana Reynolds
ASG Certified Supreme Master Gem Cutter

 

[PrecisionGem]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Chrono,

You can't take everything I have said speaking in generalities and apply it to every stone. Using your reasoning then, since you say one spessartite that was cut in the US that had a window, all "precision" cut stones have windows.

Obviously there are well cut stones from cutters all over the world, using all different types of of equipment. Yields vary for every single stone. Normally the rough shape dictates to some extent the finished shape unless you need to work around inclusions.

As Dana pointed out, some cutting houses will cut all round from a parcel even the stone would have a better yield in a different shape, it's all a function of what the client or market wants. My only point was simply this; that in the hands of a skilled cutter, using modern equipment who is more concerned about the beauty of the stone, the same piece of rough will produce a more valuable and often just as big if not bigger stone. I know you think I am wrong, so I suggest you avoid "precision cutters", since they cut windowed stones with less color and saturation and at a higher price. I toss in the towel and yield to your superior knowledge and experience when it comes to cutting and the gem business in general.

 

[minousbijoux]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Chrono, I know you think I am wrong, so I suggest you avoid "precision cutters", since they cut windowed stones with less color and saturation and at a higher price. I toss in the towel and yield to your superior knowledge and experience when it comes to cutting and the gem business in general.

Boy, you can be unpleasant when you want to be, Gene. I thought Chrono made some good points, and I too, thought there were some inherent contradictions in your explanation. Perhaps you could concede that you could've been more articulate and clearer in what you wrote, instead of becoming snarky. Just saying.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Arkteia, are you sure that's a garnet? A garnet wouldn't have more color in the ends of the crystal. Sounds like it could be a mint green tourmline? Did you see this effect in the rough? A long oval or pear shape cut will concentrate the color as the more pointed ends, but the piece of rough if it were garnet should be the same color and tone throughout the stone. Garnets are not dichroic.

 

[chrono]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Gene,
That is exactly the point I am trying to make as well to you; you cannot take everything I have said speaking in generalities and apply it to every "native" cut stone. Just as there are well cut and poorly cut "native" stones, there are also well cut and poorly cut "precision cut" stones. There is no need to get snippy with me. The only reason why most of my stones are not precision cut but are very well cut "non precision cuts" is because I cannot find such material that are cut to such precision. I would love it if all my prized stones (Mahenge spinel, chrysoberyl, cobalt spinels and a whole host of other gems) are precision cut but unfortunately, I have not seen such material in terms of size and colour to be precision cut. Believe it or not, I agree that in the hands of a skilled cutter, using up to date technology, the end result will be spectacular. My 5 ct spessartite is precision cut and I love it a lot. The lapidary brought out the best of the rough, with an attractive facet pattern, great colouration and the whole nine yards.

Dana,
Thank you for your informative post about how cutting houses deal with their rough material, who buys / owns the rough, who dictates what the end result should be and so forth. Does the market really want oval shapes then because there are tons of ovals out there?

 

[PrecisionGem]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Chrono, didn't mean to get snippy, I just feel we have been down this road a few other times.
I guess our definition of precision cut must be different. I would consider you spinel pear from Swala to be precision cut. Not all cuts that are precise perform well either. Top quality material will always be expensive, no matter who cuts it.

 

[mastercutgems]

Re: Please explain the logic of lousy cutting for more carat

Chrono :

Ovals are generally the most common shape of rough; as you will see with alluvial rough it is usually ovalish; also broken crystals will usually fall into an ovalish pattern; emeralds or beryls will be emerald or square cuts, Montana sapphires as Gene said will be rounds... So when a cutting house due to the demands of the rough owner wants maximum yield it will more than likely be an oval or as we all know a roval not being a calibrated size like 8x6, 9x7 and so on.

That is why you seldom see a big round brilliant emerald or ruby as they both demand a high price per carat and neither are usually the shape of the round... So you will be stuck with what the cutter can most likely get the most carat weight from...

I really think the market is becoming more aware of what will sell and what will not. I have seen it in the last 2 years as the cutting house and broker I deal with most want to now know if I want calibrated cuts. My answer is; if it is a a amethyst, silver topaz, etc. yes I do want that and if it is a merelani mint grossular garnet, or a Mahenge spinel no I want to get the most return of the gem I can and NOT sacrifice the optical properties of the gem. That is my number one rule; best optics first and then carat weight and decent marketable shape. As we all know most of these gems have to be able to take a good photograph and with my lack of photography skills I need them to look as good as humanly possible ...

I know this subject has been beat to death; we as western cutters know there are good cutters on both sides of the pond; they cut one way and we cut another. I even have a jamb peg and tried that style; not my cut of tea; give me my ultra tec any-day over that thing; so I have learned a great amount of respect for those cutters.



I think forums like this one and a few others are making the general public more aware that this is not the best cut for the gem and when the owners of the rough take a beating enough on the prices they will be more inclined to choose the better cutting. As there are 2 prices for cutting; basic and good cutting... people are generally tightwads; they had rather pay 35 cents a carat for the crap cut than to pay 1 dollar a carat for the very good cut... You get what you pay for... I will take the dollar cut and grin from ear to ear when they come in every time as they will sell and my rough warranted the better cut as it was still very good rough and worthy of the better cutting.


Most respectfully;

Dana Reynolds
ASG Certified Supreme Master Gem Cutter #96cge42