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Help Please - Imminent Proposal

headlight

Ideal_Rock
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3,293
You're wrong. I am still here
This is such a tough decision and I feel your pain! If you purchase the stone from the seller you have been working with, in the event she would prefer a different diamond would that be an option? And, if so, would that jeweler be able to bring in other stones for you to choose from? Maybe it would help make your decision easier if you knew that an exchange could be made.
 

headlight

Ideal_Rock
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OH, did you buy the Whiteflash stone? If so, it's gorgeous and you made a great choice!
 

Matthews1127

Ideal_Rock
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Since your appraiser seems to believe that the majority of super ideals have a cookie cutter feel, has anyone mentioned antique cut/vintage cut/old cut stones with more unique personality?
Old Mine Cuts, Old European Cuts, and Antique Cushion Cuts are gorgeous, sparkly, and unique in many ways. Each has its own character.
Have you witnessed their charm, and old world sparkle? Do you know if your intended would prefer something different, and unique to her?? The broad, rainbow flashes an old cut stone produces can be breathtaking, and they are not cut (well....they weren’t, originally) for precision, and certainly not by super ideal standards, but they are little fireballs!!
Would you be open to an old cut diamond? Do you think SHE would???
Take a look at these, and see what you think. See what SHE thinks....

Here are some recommended vendors:

https://instagram.com/gemconcepts?igshid=vlboo52khg5i

https://www.jewelsbygrace.com/diamonds/3-01-ct-and-up

https://instagram.com/jewelsbygrace?igshid=1sqcjgc0zu0fj

https://instagram.com/oldworlddiamonds?igshid=7nhim6z0ymwn

https://instagram.com/langantiques?igshid=1whnm8w0i8rkj

Modern cut Antique Cut Vendor’s:

https://instagram.com/augustvintage?igshid=no99byfrgk11

https://instagram.com/victorcanera?igshid=1tr8fbf7f8sq2
 

OoohShiny

Ideal_Rock
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...and on the flip side, the majority of people just want a white, sparkly diamond. And most ppl see a G and think it “must be a D because it’s so white”.

I happen to know a LOT of women whose husbands bought them a D/E color diamond (6 to be exact), albeit but a much smaller stone than they desired or were expecting...

“...but it’s a DEEEEE, honey!” Regardless of it being super white, they were disappointed by the size their husbands sacrificed by going super colorless. Each one has said many times that, although they can appreciate that their husbands thought they were doing great by buying D/VS, they would’ve been happier with a larger G/H. Why? Because they, as is the case with many women, would rather have a larger “white enough” diamond than a small super white diamond. All of them feel like their husband wasted money by going with a smaller D/E, as opposed to a larger G/H.

Every. Single. One. All six.
So the TL;DR summary would be something like "It doesn't matter what ladies say - size matters..."?

;))

:lol:
 

ALRAAA

Rough_Rock
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Jun 22, 2019
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48
Interesting video here

After you watch, please note the comments. There are only three.
 

bmfang

Brilliant_Rock
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Interesting video here

After you watch, please note the comments. There are only three.

And of those comments, two are from @Garry H (Cut Nut)

Garry’s comments about the stones used by JannPaul in the video are very relevant. We never advocate the use of HCA as a tool to choose a diamond. It is only supposed to be used to weed out stones that will likely not have good light performance, ie a sorting function.

After that, for example, if two stones that have HCA sub-2 are found, we look at the overall pic of what the grading report says along with any visual analysis (which includes the use of scope imagery). A stone that has good proportions may be discounted from selection due to inclusion types and other factors (including those instances where fluorescence has a negative impact on transparency).
 

bmfang

Brilliant_Rock
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Further to the above, when the Jann Paul rep states in the video that the GIA report uses average figures, it goes beyond that: GIA averages figures of key proportions (Crown and Pavilion angles, Star facet, lower girdle percentage) and then rounds them (crown angle to the nearest 0.5 degree, pavilion to the nearest 0.2 degree, Star facet and lower girdle percentages to the nearest 5%).

Hence my preference for AGS stones as they report what the average is across 8 measurements. You get a much better ability to gauge light performance without needing to use HCA.

For me I have to use HCA in combination with other tools such as proportion charts and gm89uk’s cut statistical analyser with GIA stones to weed out stones that are on the outer edge of proportions (mainly ones with 34/40.8, 35/40.8-41 and 35.5/40.6 CA/PA combos on GIA reports but there are other combos which fall within BIC/FIC proportions too).
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Idk... I’m pretty sure those ladies would never say size doesn’t matter. I guess this goes for diamonds too. ;-) :lol:
SIZE means nothing if IT doesn't perform. ladies don't like the dead looking ones. Yes I'm referring to diamonds...:Up_to_something:
 

lkredhat

Rough_Rock
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Nov 1, 2012
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I have a different POV, just to help drive you crazier. But in the long run it might relieve your stress. You could pick an absolutely gorgeous stone and it still might not be just right for her.

So here's an idea. Does she have a sibling or best friend who knows her taste that you could consult with? They might know her dream ring.

Or is there an heirloom ring or a lovely diamond band you could use for the proposal and then shop for the perfect engagement ring together?

Here's why. Myself, I wouldn't want a 3 carat diamond in a prong setting to wear every day, not even a gorgeous D with a perfect cut. I would want a smaller stone with an unusual cut (like OEC, maybe asscher) in an antique or bezel setting with mixed metals. But her style may be completely different--she might want a princess cut, or a celtic setting, or platinum rather than yellow gold.

The point is, this is all about personal taste and lifestyle. She'll be living with and (hopefully) loving this ring a long time. You don't marry a guy because he has great taste in jewelry, you marry him because he has great taste in who he wants to marry! :love: :love: :love:

So rather than worrying about the perfect ring, think about the perfect proposal, the perfect honeymoon .... Just my 2 cents.
 

LLJsmom

Super_Ideal_Rock
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:lol-2: I would care about the rock and the ring. Keep the proposal simple, sincere and straightforward. Splurge on the honeymoon. Or not and save the money for a house. I do agree with being open to an OEC or an antique asscher or step cut. But I think you probably have enough on your plate already. I would prob just stick with an MRB if you don’t want to start over.
 

BrentM1

Rough_Rock
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I have been buying and selling diamonds for over 38 years and I am also a Graduate Gemologist.Most of my customers that come to me ask me what is the most bang for the buck for their budget.In the wholesale end of the business that would be a VS2 and I in color.Now if a customer comes to me and wants a VVS1 and D in color that is what I am going to look for because finding him something less and saving him a bunch of money is not what he is shopping for and he would not appreciate anything less.I am not going to convince him anything different.When it comes to hearts and arrows and all the other bells and whistles most of those things are only going to be detected under magnification.
 

msop04

Super_Ideal_Rock
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I have been buying and selling diamonds for over 38 years and I am also a Graduate Gemologist.Most of my customers that come to me ask me what is the most bang for the buck for their budget.In the wholesale end of the business that would be a VS2 and I in color.Now if a customer comes to me and wants a VVS1 and D in color that is what I am going to look for because finding him something less and saving him a bunch of money is not what he is shopping for and he would not appreciate anything less.I am not going to convince him anything different.When it comes to hearts and arrows and all the other bells and whistles most of those things are only going to be detected under magnification.

I don't deny that... but "most" have zero diamond education. They think they have to have colorless and flawless (or something close to it). We see it here all the time. Now, whether they decided that G/SI is where it's at or choose to stick with D/IF, they have at least been given the advice to look for themselves. It's fair to say that posters who come to this forum want to be educated in hopes of spending their money wisely... well, at least educated spending.

RE the customers wanting a D/VVS... do all these customers convey to you that they aren't interested in anything less or comparing specs IRL in hopes of saving money... or is that your assumption? I'm curious. I know if it were my FF looking for my diamond, and he asked for a D/VVS because he had heard/been told that was "the best", I'd be pissed off if nothing else was ever shown to him... and he spent a wad of cash on a tiny diamond, when a larger one may have been easily afforded with the budget. To me, not offering the opportunity to see different colors/clarities IRL is doing the buyer (and especially the intended) a huge disservice. But, again... just my opinion.
 

BrentM1

Rough_Rock
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I try to educate the buyers to a point that you don't confuse them.It seems that alot of people are always trying to compete with the Joneses.Well Mary's diamond is a E color so I want a D color,if you know what I mean.I can say for about 95% of the customers that I have sold to want the same quality that I would put on my wife's or girlfriend's finger,but everyone is different and want different qualities.I refuse to sell SI2 or worse and nothing lower that a J in color and nothing with strong fluorescence,but that is just me.
 

Dcrafty1

Shiny_Rock
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Dec 25, 2018
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116
RE the customers wanting a D/VVS... do all these customers convey to you that they aren't interested in anything less or comparing specs IRL in hopes of saving money... or is that your assumption? I'm curious. I know if it were my FF looking for my diamond, and he asked for a D/VVS because he had heard/been told that was "the best", I'd be pissed off if nothing else was ever shown to him... and he spent a wad of cash on a tiny diamond, when a larger one may have been easily afforded with the budget. To me, not offering the opportunity to see different colors/clarities IRL is doing the buyer (and especially the intended) a huge disservice. But, again... just my opinion.

THIS!! I was told by Jarads that this was the best. Never ever did they mention cut. We left with the intention of buying the ring. I was furious when I found out my FH didn’t buy it and someone else had. But that turned out to be a blessing My “sulking” led me to educating myself on buying diamonds which led me to buying online and Pricesope. I have the BEST ring for me and it’s not D/VVS. Not knocking those that buy that just make sure your CUT is number one and then if you can afford get the D/VVS. If my FH was an impulsive decision maker like me, I’d be sulking now over purchasing the BEST ring ever and then discovering PS. JMHO
 

Matthews1127

Ideal_Rock
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I try to educate the buyers to a point that you don't confuse them.It seems that alot of people are always trying to compete with the Joneses.Well Mary's diamond is a E color so I want a D color,if you know what I mean.I can say for about 95% of the customers that I have sold to want the same quality that I would put on my wife's or girlfriend's finger,but everyone is different and want different qualities.I refuse to sell SI2 or worse and nothing lower that a J in color and nothing with strong fluorescence,but that is just me.

Why do you “refuse to sell SI2 or worse and nothing lower than a J in color and nothing with strong fluorescence”?

That seems extremely general, and categorical, to me.
There are BEAUTIFUL, and perfectly eye clean SI2’s out there! Some people LOVE the tinted glow of K-P color. Some people don’t know they love them, until they SEE for themselves.
Limiting someone’s options, before allowing THEM to eliminate them, seems rather suspect. Why wouldn’t you want your customers to be informed, and decide for themselves?
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
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18,023
I try to educate the buyers to a point that you don't confuse them.It seems that alot of people are always trying to compete with the Joneses.Well Mary's diamond is a E color so I want a D color,if you know what I mean.I can say for about 95% of the customers that I have sold to want the same quality that I would put on my wife's or girlfriend's finger,but everyone is different and want different qualities.I refuse to sell SI2 or worse and nothing lower that a J in color and nothing with strong fluorescence,but that is just me.
You refuse to sell those things? Why? That makes no sense. Why not let customers choose for themselves what they like?
I prefer stones K and lower, and there are some gorgeous SI2 stones. And the fear of fluor is just silly. You might be a vendor but I have no clue why you don't let your customers make informed decisions for themselves rather than limiting what you sell.
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Why do you “refuse to sell SI2 or worse and nothing lower than a J in color and nothing with strong fluorescence”?

That seems extremely general, and categorical, to me.
There are BEAUTIFUL, and perfectly eye clean SI2’s out there! Some people LOVE the tinted glow of K-P color. Some people don’t know they love them, until they SEE for themselves.
Limiting someone’s options, before allowing THEM to eliminate them, seems rather suspect. Why wouldn’t you want your customers to be informed, and decide for themselves?
My guess is bc informing customers would cause this vendor to lose money. Sounds like a maul store strategy.
 

msop04

Super_Ideal_Rock
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I try to educate the buyers to a point that you don't confuse them.It seems that alot of people are always trying to compete with the Joneses.Well Mary's diamond is a E color so I want a D color,if you know what I mean.I can say for about 95% of the customers that I have sold to want the same quality that I would put on my wife's or girlfriend's finger,but everyone is different and want different qualities.I refuse to sell SI2 or worse and nothing lower that a J in color and nothing with strong fluorescence,but that is just me.

Sounds like more money than sense... LOL
Why do you “refuse to sell SI2 or worse and nothing lower than a J in color and nothing with strong fluorescence”?

That seems extremely general, and categorical, to me.
There are BEAUTIFUL, and perfectly eye clean SI2’s out there! Some people LOVE the tinted glow of K-P color. Some people don’t know they love them, until they SEE for themselves.
Limiting someone’s options, before allowing THEM to eliminate them, seems rather suspect. Why wouldn’t you want your customers to be informed, and decide for themselves?

Yep... I own one. Although not common, you can still find eye clean SI2's in a 3+ ct stone.
 

MollyMalone

Ideal_Rock
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@Matthews1127 @lovedogs @msop04

Think you're being unduly harsh on @BrentM1 . I imagine most of his e-ring shoppers are those looking to surprise their SO with an engagement ring. No one here would urge someone to purchase a K - P diamond as a surprise (heck, there are PSers who are cautious about recommending a I-J diamond as a surprise). Also BrentM1's inventory is not virtual; he's had to pay for the diamonds he has at the ready to show to customers. So I think it's unrealistic to expect that he's going to stock an array of diamonds down to P in color and SI-2 in clarity on the off-chance that a fair number of couples are going to waltz into his store and be amenable to what are "outliers" in the mainstream of the buying public.
 

bmfang

Brilliant_Rock
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Also BrentM1's inventory is not virtual; he's had to pay for the diamonds he has at the ready to show to customers. So I think it's unrealistic to expect that he's going to stock an array of diamonds down to P in color and SI-2 in clarity on the off-chance that a fair number of couples are going to waltz into his store and be amenable to what are "outliers" in the mainstream of the buying public.

This.
 

Matthews1127

Ideal_Rock
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@Matthews1127 @lovedogs @msop04

Think you're being unduly harsh on @BrentM1 . I imagine most of his e-ring shoppers are those looking to surprise their SO with an engagement ring. No one here would urge someone to purchase a K - P diamond as a surprise (heck, there are PSers who are cautious about recommending a I-J diamond as a surprise). Also BrentM1's inventory is not virtual; he's had to pay for the diamonds he has at the ready to show to customers. So I think it's unrealistic to expect that he's going to stock an array of diamonds down to P in color and SI-2 in clarity on the off-chance that a fair number of couples are going to waltz into his store and be amenable to what are "outliers" in the mainstream of the buying public.

I’m not being “harsh”. I asked why he “refuses” to give customers options outside what is mainstream.
I have an eye clean SI2.
Perhaps, just perhaps, the use of the word “refuse” could have been replaced with “hesitate”. Not ALL SI graded stones are ugly, and “unworthy” of sale.
Lower colors are out of most preferred ranges, but I’m certain if a customer requested lower color, that wouldn’t be a difficult request to which to acquiesce.
I can’t possibly imagine a diamond vendor bold face REFUSING to provide an option requested by a customer based upon his own personal
opinions or preferences.
Which is why I begged the question: “Why would you ‘refuse’...??”
 

LLJsmom

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Just to share a quick story. I popped into Harry Winston and do a little test driving, and was told that they do not sell below an F. I asked what if I wanted an H, which is my preferred color in a MRB. They said they could not sell me one. ok... :lol-2: I picked my special self up off the upholstered seats and sauntered out the double doors and shook the dust off my feet at their doorstep. Kidding!!! Well, yeah, a little insulting and disappointing but I couldn't afford HW anyway.
Oh well. I guess @BrentM1 is making a business decision, as @MollyMalone mentioned. I hadn't even considered it. I would guess he's not losing much business over it. I sure am glad that there are vendors that offer stones lower than a J. I wouldn't have my stone if there wasn't.
 

Matthews1127

Ideal_Rock
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Just to share a quick story. I popped into Harry Winston and do a little test driving, and was told that they do not sell below an F. I asked what if I wanted an H, which is my preferred color in a MRB. They said they could not sell me one. ok... :lol-2: I picked my special self up off the upholstered seats and sauntered out the double doors and shook the dust off my feet at their doorstep. Kidding!!! Well, yeah, a little insulting and disappointing but I couldn't afford HW anyway.
Oh well. I guess @BrentM1 is making a business decision, as @MollyMalone mentioned. I hadn't even considered it. I would guess he's not losing much business over it. I sure am glad that there are vendors that offer stones lower than a J. I wouldn't have my stone if there wasn't.

I wouldn’t have my crisp, beautifully eye clean SI2, if all vendors refused to sell them, either.
 

LLJsmom

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Huh. Now that I think about it I have also worked with a jeweler that would not supply AGS stones. This is also a B&M, the only one that I would work with in my local area. It took some convincing, but I finally got them to bring it in, and the buyer selected it. Forcefully limiting the buyers. Hmmm. I guess that's why I don't patronize many B&Ms.
 

MollyMalone

Ideal_Rock
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Well, I read "refuse to sell" as meaning "I don't stock..." a la Harry Winston, Cartier, and Tiffany who don't offer diamonds below X and Y in color and clarity. But of course, you may be right & that he would in fact decline to bring in "on memo" some O-P stones of SI1 - SI2 in clarity for an interested customer's viewing

Still, I think the expectation that he stock a wide panoply of diamonds as reflected in this concluding sentence of your post
Limiting someone’s options, before allowing THEM to eliminate them, seems rather suspect. Why wouldn’t you want your customers to be informed, and decide for themselves?
isn't realistic.
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
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@Matthews1127 @lovedogs @msop04

Think you're being unduly harsh on @BrentM1 . I imagine most of his e-ring shoppers are those looking to surprise their SO with an engagement ring. No one here would urge someone to purchase a K - P diamond as a surprise (heck, there are PSers who are cautious about recommending a I-J diamond as a surprise). Also BrentM1's inventory is not virtual; he's had to pay for the diamonds he has at the ready to show to customers. So I think it's unrealistic to expect that he's going to stock an array of diamonds down to P in color and SI-2 in clarity on the off-chance that a fair number of couples are going to waltz into his store and be amenable to what are "outliers" in the mainstream of the buying public.
I admit being harsh, but my attitude largely came from his first posts on here being outright false related to fluor. I don't have patience for vendors who try to come on here and scare buyers out of purchases. Also, the phrase "I refuse" to sell is just silly. "Don't keep it in stock" is fine, but "refuse" is irritating.
 

Matthews1127

Ideal_Rock
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Well, I read "refuse to sell" as meaning "I don't stock..." a la Harry Winston, Cartier, and Tiffany who don't offer diamonds below X and Y in color and clarity. But of course, you may be right & that he would in fact decline to bring in "on memo" some O-P stones of SI1 - SI2 in clarity for an interested customer's viewing

Still, I think the expectation that he stock a wide panoply of diamonds as reflected in this concluding sentence of your post

isn't realistic.

Not stocking quantities of these particular grades of stones is his prerogative. However, refusal to sell something to a customer, imo, is a shot in the foot.
To each his own.
I’ll continue to take my business to vendors who are open to “out of mainstream” parameters, and who work with me, in order to satisfy my needs.
 
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