Help Please - Imminent Proposal

[OoohShiny]

Just a comment to show how a true ideal cut can compensate for low color. This is my 2.66 ct K-VS1 from Crafted by a Infinity / High Performance Diamonds. It was within by budget and affords me loads of brilliance and rainbows and size, but was not near the price of a higher color. This may prove that a G would be well within your tolerance. These aren’t glamorous photos, very real world, middle of the day, not cleaned up. At an angle the tint is visible but facing up it is shine and rainbows all the time. No dark middle like the stone you posted.

I would never have guessed that was a K from the pictures, not even side on!

 

[Matthews1127]

I would never have guessed that was a K from the pictures, not even side on!

Just proves the point: CUT is King! A super ideal diamond will also face up larger due to its superior cut & spread.
The premium is worth it for peace of mind; the science is done for you.

 

[bmfang]

Thank you for taking a look. I really want to love this diamond, but... not sure

Numbers wise, it’s ok. Given the “shallow” crown coupled with table (58%) and depth (60.8%), it’s probably going to be edging towards more white light return (brilliance) rather than fire.

I have a sneaking suspicion whenever I see stone just shying over a carat weight that they’ve been cut for weight retention and this one is that. Using that rough rule of thumb (that I once saw on the Nice Ice site that Todd attributed to Mr Brian Gavin), l x w x d x 0.0061, this should have been a 2.95ct stone if the cutter wanted to maximise beauty. The lure to go over 3cts was too strong and commercially made more sense as the $/carat for a 3ct stone is likely to be a bit more than one that is just shy of 3ct.

Probably made sense to do so given the inherent price penalty for medium blue fluorescence in the general market (especially for stones that are D in colour, an utterly stupid penalty but good for consumers). That fluor didn’t appear to affect transparency in the vids I saw as under the table, it was clear and I didn’t notice anything to be milky or hazy.

here is another video I took of the diamond in the appraiser's office

It's not the best, but it gives another vantage point.

I am officially wasting too much time on this. and I am losing my mind.

In this vid, I am seeing arrow shafts on a fairly regular basis so that’s not too bad. Plenty of facets are lighting on/off as the stone is tilted. But I’m seeing more white light coming back from the pavilion mains than I am fire (the fire is coming off to my eyes more from the facets around the table than under it).

 

[Bron357]

I’m no diamond guru but it is easy to be overwhelmed.
Cut is very important but unless you’ve used to seeing an ACA or are putting an ACA alongside another diamond to it, very few people would even know a difference existed. So the “difference” between an “excellent” cut and a “very good” might be invisible to your average viewer. To a diamond expert or someone who has owned many diamonds and has been able to appreciate the difference in cut, they can see it.
The one thing everyone understands is size.
The next is colour. Again, unless you put an H or even an I alongside a D, an H or I looks plenty white to most people.
Inclusions. Inclusions are assessed at x10. This is not what the human eye can see at “polite” viewing distance. If the inclusions are carbon flecks they will be far more noticeable. If the inclusions are feathers or crystals and towards the girdle, even an SI can be “eye clean”.
The question is “what matters to you and your fiancée?
Me, I wouldn’t go with a .5 carat smaller for an ACA that costs more.
Others wouldn’t consider anything other than an ACA
And other others might say “give me the 5 carat one, I don’t care if it’s yellow toned, I2 with an HCA of 5 - I want BIG”

 

[lydial]

@ALRAAA I am not a “pro” consumer here like some, just a recent purchaser. What appealed to me buying a CBI from hpdiamonds.com was that I was guaranteed an optical masterpiece because of their higher cut parameters. No thought required, just a budget and a dream size (for me 2.5 ct) Check out this diamond, which is a 3.3 ct J under $40k. https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD10652
Similarly an ACA can get you the same type of optics I believe, such as this 3 ct H/VS from Whiteflash, but for the higher color you are looking at a 25% premium: https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4054989.htm
And this 3.7+ ct from Whiteflash is actually less expensive and gigantic, if that is what she wants. But is an I/SI.
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4129365.htm

 

[AV_]

Everything about the first stone is even slightly better than required for the classical look expected of diamonds today. Round brilliants are so standard... - I am not worried, I am bored here (attempted humour).

Would you consider anything NOT round? WWW

 

[Dancing Fire]

I have a sneaking suspicion whenever I see stone just shying over a carat weight that they’ve been cut for weight retention and this one is that.

Yup, I would always be careful with stones just over those magic carat weights. I'm looking to see if the cutter is hiding a few extra points somewhere on the stone.

 

[TreeScientist]

I agree with this... also, a lot of people think if they don't get D/E/F stones, then they'll be yellow, because they simply have no experience looking at GIA/AGS certified diamonds.

Take her to a reputable jewelry store that sells only GIA/AGS stones. Have her look at different colors of diamonds (D-I), all XXX, FACE UP in the approximate size range you're seeking (2.7-3.2 ct range). Also, it's helpful to have different colors placed side by side on a white background IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER, and have her 1) pick out any colors that appear too tinted, and 2) try to put them in order of whitest to most tinted.

I am one of those people who strongly responds to color (not all people care about color). In a large diamond with a solitaire setting, I can definitely see the color of a G for example. I can see tint in a G and I didn’t like it, -for that particular stone-. There are threads here which talk about this exact phenomenon. There are “low” and “high” Gs, within a scale, graded identically by GIA. All G’s are not alike. Diamonds have undertones of yellow, green, brown, etc. which affect perceived “whiteness” and a GIA report WILL NOT TELL YOU THIS. You’ve got to see each G in person. I personally love icey white, and a “high” F can get you there. Look up Cflutist’s posts for many icey white superideal Fs. Superideal cuts are so good that face up, color plays second fiddle to cut. I have an E CBI, and in many lighting situations I have felt the color is completely lost on me and I could have gone down several colors. Cut is very important.

OP, you clearly have the best in mind for your beloved. I can see that from you wanting to choose a D 3 carat stone. I agree with the other posters that this is definitely something you don’t want to rush. You want to feel absolutely solid and secure in your forever ring. I know you can find it, and I would not let an appraiser or a deadline sway you from investigating your many options in this regard.

I'm also in the minority that can definitely see color in a G. Even face up. That being said, not everyone can see the difference in color between a D and a G.

As others have said, I would encourage you not to rush into this. Personally, I don't like the diamond you posted based on the videos. In a diamond of this size, you should definitely be able to see clear, crisp arrows if the stone is even somewhat decently cut. The fact that the pattern looks rather splintery under the table leads me to believe that the pavilion mains were botched on this diamond. I don't think you need a SuperIdeal, but you might be better off finding a diamond with a slightly better cut (it's not all about the angles listed on the report...).

As stated by @msop04 above, definitely find out your SO's color preferences ahead of time. I would encourage you to do the color sensitivity test that she mentioned above, with one additional suggestion. Make sure that you do the test in a DIM lighting environment. Either hold the tray of diamonds under a counter, or go into a dark corner of the jewelry store before looking at the different color diamonds side by side. Jewelry store lights have a find high proportion of light in the blue end of the spectrum, which will make even near-colorless diamonds look white. In jewelry stores I cannot see any face-up color even up to the H/I range, but in low lighting it is very easy for me to tell the difference between a D and a G.

Again, don't rush. Take you time with this decision. You want to make sure that you're getting the best diamond for your money.

Are you really locked into using the dealer that you're currently working with? If not, could you post your budget? People on here could identify a few other potential contenders for you.

 

[Tekate]

Here is a video of my recent upgrade diamond. It is 2.948 cts and is an I color SI1 stone that we bought from Whiteflash (their upgrade policy has me hooked to them and I love it). It is A Cut Above stone, meaning it is super ideal. The stone is beautiful.

here is the listing

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4045357.htm

I am super ideally in love with this stone, it's spead is good, it is super white to me.. people are funny about color. Your stone is D with fluorescence so it could be a good deal if there is no problems.

I think msop is correct on buying superideal versus looking for a great stone that meets almost super ideal stats, WF also has their Expert selection which is a GREAT buy. I highly recommend High Performance diamonds also, their stones are exquisite, and you can also use the calculator and disregard stones.

Congratulations on your upcoming engagement and it's a stressful time for sure. These people here are the best to assist you in this journey.

 

[BrentM1]

The problem I see with the diamond is that it is D color and medium blue fluorescence.Their is a good chance that when you get that diamond outside in the sunlight that it will have a milky look to it. Fluorescence is ok if it was a lower color but in a D color you could have some issues with the way it looks in different lighting.How much are they asking for the diamond?

 

[msop04]

As stated by @msop04 above, definitely find out your SO's color preferences ahead of time. I would encourage you to do the color sensitivity test that she mentioned above, with one additional suggestion. Make sure that you do the test in a DIM lighting environment. Either hold the tray of diamonds under a counter, or go into a dark corner of the jewelry store before looking at the different color diamonds side by side. Jewelry store lights have a find high proportion of light in the blue end of the spectrum, which will make even near-colorless diamonds look white. In jewelry stores I cannot see any face-up color even up to the H/I range, but in low lighting it is very easy for me to tell the difference between a D and a G.

I wouldn't even do this test inside the jewelry store. The lights can make frozen spit look sparkly and white. I would ask that the comparison be done under "normal lighting conditions" - outside is best, if possible.

 

[msop04]

The problem I see with the diamond is that it is D color and medium blue fluorescence.Their is a good chance that when you get that diamond outside in the sunlight that it will have a milky look to it. Fluorescence is ok if it was a lower color but in a D color you could have some issues with the way it looks in different lighting.How much are they asking for the diamond?

Actually, the chances of the stone looking milky due to medium blue fluorescence are not that great.

 

[LLJsmom]

The problem I see with the diamond is that it is D color and medium blue fluorescence.Their is a good chance that when you get that diamond outside in the sunlight that it will have a milky look to it. Fluorescence is ok if it was a lower color but in a D color you could have some issues with the way it looks in different lighting.How much are they asking for the diamond?

That’s not accurate. Can some one link the GIA study? And there is a lot of debate out there about other impacts of fluorescence, probably too much to go into here. But maybe the OP already knows, or not...

 

[TreeScientist]

I wouldn't even do this test inside the jewelry store. The lights can make frozen spit look sparkly and white. I would ask that the comparison be done under "normal lighting conditions" - outside is best, if possible.

Outside/sunlight isn't all that good either. It's also fairly "cool" in temperature. Plus any fluor could interfere with the color of the stones being used for the test.

Normal fluorescent (office) or warm-white LED (home) lighting would be best. This is where stones will show the most color. Obviously it's kind of hard to do that in a jewelry store, but depending on the store, they may also have warm lighting too if they sell colored gems (many colored gems look best in incandescent light). Wouldn't hurt to ask if they have an incandescent (or warm-white incandescent equivalent LED) bulb around the store that could be used for the test. Otherwise, I still think under a counter and blocking as much light as possible is the easiest way to do it.

 

[bludiva]

Just to add one more POV about not rushing, I'd rather have the proposal with no ring and get the best ring for our budget later than have my SO buy a ring under pressure which may end up being not as well spec'd, overpriced, etc. You know your SO best but this is a significant purchase (money and sentiment-wise) to be sweating out.

 

[OoohShiny]

The problem I see with the diamond is that it is D color and medium blue fluorescence.Their is a good chance that when you get that diamond outside in the sunlight that it will have a milky look to it. Fluorescence is ok if it was a lower color but in a D color you could have some issues with the way it looks in different lighting.How much are they asking for the diamond?

Brent, I see you have "Diamond and colored stone buyer and seller" as your profile.

If you are in the trade, you must go into your profile setup and tick the box marked 'Trade', so you have the trade banner showing under your user avatar.

 

[Iwanttosparkle]

I too was recently in the market for a diamond. I too became tired and "done" with the whole process. The more I learned the more I realized how much there is to learn and that I don't have that kind of time or energy to gain the knowledge I would need to make the best choice. That is why I decided to purchase an ACA from Whiteflash. I got it last month and I couldn't be happier with it. They are helpful and professional and not high pressure. What stuck out to me was their honesty, which I found severely lacking at my local shops. I personally look at Whiteflash ACA's as almost a concierge service. By the time it is an ACA the screening process has already been done for you. I found this peace of mind worth it for a novice like me.

 

[lovedogs]

The problem I see with the diamond is that it is D color and medium blue fluorescence.Their is a good chance that when you get that diamond outside in the sunlight that it will have a milky look to it. Fluorescence is ok if it was a lower color but in a D color you could have some issues with the way it looks in different lighting.How much are they asking for the diamond?

As others have said, this is false.

 

[BrentM1]

Thanks for the note.I went back into my profile and I didn't see anywhere that you can mark that you are in the trade.If someone can point me in the right direction,I will be more than happy to change it.Thanks

 

[BrentM1]

Yes they are when you have a D colored diamond to begin with

 

[lovedogs]

Yes they are when you have a D colored diamond to begin with

I suggest reading up on florescence and diamonds. GIA did a study on this topic and found no such thing. It's true that the market devalues these stones (fluor in colorless stones), but the myth that somehow there's a huge risk of milky appearance isn't true

Edit. You are especially wrong about medium fluor. The only risk (and this risk is quite tiny) is with strong fluor and colorless stones. But even that isn't as prevalent as it's made out to me. But medium won't have any negative impact on a colorless stone.

 

[OoohShiny]

Thanks for the note.I went back into my profile and I didn't see anywhere that you can mark that you are in the trade.If someone can point me in the right direction,I will be more than happy to change it.Thanks

If you hover over your name in the top right of the screen, click on Personal Details when the drop-down box appears.

When the new screen opens up, click on 'Preferences' under the Settings heading (on the left hand side).

There is a box at the bottom titled "Check here if you work or are working with any diamond and/or jewelry business." which you should click on to tick.

 

[OoohShiny]

That’s not accurate. Can some one link the GIA study? And there is a lot of debate out there about other impacts of fluorescence, probably too much to go into here. But maybe the OP already knows, or not...

Here you go (with my emphases and paragraphing added to aid reading clarity):

https://www.gia.edu/gems-gemology/winter-1997-fluorescence-diamonds-moses

A Contribution to Understanding the Effect of Blue Fluorescence on the Appearance of Diamonds
Thomas M. Moses, Ilene M. Reinitz, Mary L. Johnson, John M. King, andJames E. Shigley

Some gem diamonds fluoresce, most commonly blue, to the concentrated long-wave ultraviolet radiation of a UV lamp. There is a perception in the trade that this fluorescence has a negative effect on the overall appearance of such a diamond.

Visual observation experiments were conducted to study this relationship. Four sets of very similar round brilliant diamonds, covering the color range from colorless to faint yellow, were selected for the different commonly encountered strengths of blue fluorescence they represented. These diamonds were then observed by trained graders, trade professionals, and average observers in various stone positions and lighting environments.

For the average observer, meant to represent the jewelry buying public, no systematic effects of fluorescence were detected. Even the experienced observers did not consistently agree on the effects of fluorescence from one stone to the next.

In general, the results revealed that strongly blue fluorescent diamonds were perceived to have a better color appearance when viewed table-up, with no discernible trend table-down.

Most observers saw no relationship between fluorescence and transparency.

 

[msop04]

Outside/sunlight isn't all that good either. It's also fairly "cool" in temperature. Plus any fluor could interfere with the color of the stones being used for the test.

Normal fluorescent (office) or warm-white LED (home) lighting would be best. This is where stones will show the most color. Obviously it's kind of hard to do that in a jewelry store, but depending on the store, they may also have warm lighting too if they sell colored gems (many colored gems look best in incandescent light). Wouldn't hurt to ask if they have an incandescent (or warm-white incandescent equivalent LED) bulb around the store that could be used for the test. Otherwise, I still think under a counter and blocking as much light as possible is the easiest way to do it.

If it were me, I'd request to see the diamond in as many lighting situations as they'd allow... including my car (which I actually did with my current diamond).

 

[TreeScientist]

If it were me, I'd request to see the diamond in as many lighting situations as they'd allow... including my car (which I actually did with my current diamond).

@msop04: "Excuse me, can I take this diamond for a test drive?"

Employee: "So you mean try it on?"

@msop04: "No... I mean literally get in my car and drive around with it."

 

[Lykame]

I had an F with medium blue fluorescence. There was one massive disadvantage to it - and it had nothing to do with it being milky. It was crystal clear, but I didn't buy it from a place with a feasible upgrade policy, and when I tried to sell it, nearly everyone balked at the medium blue fluorescence. It was a massive negative. And I have no personal problem with fluorescence! Unfortunately the ignorance about it is rife. I quoted the GIA article and it was like I was speaking gobbledegook!

What would your upgrade or returns policy be like in this stone from this vendor?

I can only further encourage what everyone else is suggesting, really. If you like science, there are loads of places who will cater to that (here, Whiteflash, HPD etc). You don't have to get a super ideal but with the budget you must have you would be able to get a beautiful diamond worthy of your soon-to-be fiancée. I'm not sure that this one is it.

Best of luck!

 

[BrentM1]

If you hover over your name in the top right of the screen, click on Personal Details when the drop-down box appears.

When the new screen opens up, click on 'Preferences' under the Settings heading (on the left hand side).

There is a box at the bottom titled "Check here if you work or are working with any diamond and/or jewelry business." which you should click on to tick.

Ok thanks

 

[LLJsmom]

Here you go (with my emphases and paragraphing added to aid reading clarity):

https://www.gia.edu/gems-gemology/winter-1997-fluorescence-diamonds-moses

A Contribution to Understanding the Effect of Blue Fluorescence on the Appearance of Diamonds
Thomas M. Moses, Ilene M. Reinitz, Mary L. Johnson, John M. King, andJames E. Shigley

@OoohShiny YOU ROCK!

 

[bmfang]

Yes they are when you have a D colored diamond to begin with

Medium blue fluor, highly unlikely. Strong, more likely but still quite unlikely. Very strong, even more likely, but unlikely. There used to be a premium for these stones a very very long time ago until the market fell out back in the late 70s/early 80s (according to my research).

The GIA study as referenced above by @OoohShiny (while a little old now) is still highly relevant.

A really good example of strong blue fluor in a D stone is here (with the exception of that honker of a black crystal under the table!!).
https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...1.093-d-vs2-round-diamond-ags-bl-104067973013

 

[BrentM1]

Here you go (with my emphases and paragraphing added to aid reading clarity):

https://www.gia.edu/gems-gemology/winter-1997-fluorescence-diamonds-moses

A Contribution to Understanding the Effect of Blue Fluorescence on the Appearance of Diamonds
Thomas M. Moses, Ilene M. Reinitz, Mary L. Johnson, John M. King, andJames E. Shigley

I did not say that the fluorescence in this diamond was going to affect it.I said that their is a chance.After 38 years of selling diamonds I can tell you that fluorescence does have a negative affect on certain diamonds.The negative affect is more obvious in D,E,and F color diamonds because of how white they already are,and sometimes fluorescence can be a benefit to lower color diamonds