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MattEffinCameron

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 4, 2013
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53
so I am having an engagement ring made locally which will be very similar to this:
http://antiqueengagementrings.com/images/1908WS-08h.jpg

I have a stone on hold with the local jeweler but think I am going to buy one online and use that instead as the local jewler is offering me mostly EGL stones and I dont think the value (price for what you get) of the stone I have on hold is anywhere close to what I am seeing online.

I would like to spend around 5k (though I could go up to 5750 or so if I needed to) for the stone and am 99.9% sure Cushion is the way to go (I like that it is a little different and think it looks great in this style ring as shown in the pic...not sure a round would look quite the same in this setting). Color is really important to me, I dont want any yellow or anything like that...the closer to ice I can get the better. For that reason I would like a D-F. Size would ideally be a carat or slightly over and with those two parameters it looks like I should be able to afford a VS1 or greater clarity which is also ideal.

From my research, if I am buying a GIA certified stone D-F and VS1 or greater online I shouldnt need to worry too much about not having seen it in person since D-F color should all be totally clear, and VS1 or greater shouldnt have any imperfections I could see with the naked eye anyway.

So my questions I guess is, what should I look for to differentiate one stone from another?

Here are two stones I was looking at:
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/?CaratFrom=0.90&CaratTo=1.28&Color=D,E,F&Clarity=VVS2,VS1&PriceFrom=400&PriceTo=5750&Sort=Carat%20desc%20,DefaultOrder&TabSelected=3&ps=15&DiamondID=234446,260090

I notice one appears to be deeper than the other (less expensive one is deeper) which means it has a smaller surface area and probably appears smaller. What attributes will contribute to a diamond's fire or "sparkle"? Or is there no way to tell about that sort of thing? What is the significant of the thickness of the girdle?

Any help is appreciated! Thanks.
 
You need more knowledge.

Shopping for a cushion with only color and clarity as your requirements is like going car shopping and saying you want only a a blue, white, or red sedan, and no SUVs.

Clarity, you won't see anything to the naked even SI1 eyeclean stones.
And color you won't be able to detect anything in a G set or unset. And an H when set you won't be able to tell anything either. AS LONG AS THE STONES ARE WELL PERFORMING.

What does well performing mean? Well, it is a combination of faceting and light return.

The way you can test for light return is an ASET image. Faceting is harder. That's why I said that the H is an 8 main cushion. It's the faceting.

https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/cushion-cut-diamond start here. Explore all links at the bottom. And the videos by ERD and GOG.

Read this about the ASET scope: http://www.highperformancediamonds.com/index.php?page=education-performance

About ASETS: red is good. Green is okay (but you want much more red than green). Black or blue is fine as patterning (like the G cushion I posted for you. all of that is patterning and those facets will flash), but not fine in regions where there should be reflective facets.

EDITED to replace ASET link, I posted the wrong link initially.
 
Thanks, I just read through a couple of those links, will read through the rest and watch some videos tonight.

You said "You get three ASETs with JA."

Does this mean they will send me an ASET image/score or whatever for up to three stones? (Presumably free of charge?) So what you are doing is selecting the stones which your trained eye sees as, based on the information provided and the picture/video, you expect would have a good ASET score and saying those are where I should use my three?

Might it be handy for me to buy my own handheld ASET thing for looking at any stones in the local jewelry store or looking at a stone that I have purchased online once it has been shipped to me (I can always return/exchange right?)
I just googled it and it looked like handheld ones were only like 25 bucks
( http://www.americangemsociety.org/uploads/10001368819598.pdf )
 
You get up to three, so choose your cushions wisely. Watch some Youtube videos about cushions and see which style you like.

Yes, you can buy your own handheld ASET.
 
BGD also has a hearts and arrows cushion (slightly different from GOG's). The biggest they have in budget for you in .7 though.

The G I posted from ERD is a nice stone. And that H from JA is an eight main and I think the ASET will bear it out to be a nice stone.
 
A few hours of reading, researching, and watching videos and its amazing how much more I feel like I know!

Side note...Are there any applications or websites or anything that you can put a stone shape and dimensions into along with a ring size and have it show you what the two would look like together?
 
MattEffinCameron|1383699142|3551265 said:
A few hours of reading, researching, and watching videos and its amazing how much more I feel like I know!

Side note...Are there any applications or websites or anything that you can put a stone shape and dimensions into along with a ring size and have it show you what the two would look like together?
Click to expand...

Heckeffinyeah there is. :) **edited by moderator, no affiliate link websites please**
Look in the top right corner and you can choose a shape/enter dimensions. From there, you'll get to a page where you can choose the ring size and see it on a hand.
 
So I went to the jeweler today to get a picture of the cert for the stone I have on hold. He hadnt emailed it ot me because he has been having computer problems I guess..

So it is indeed EGL-Europe. .91c F VS1 that he says is 4k.

He doesnt have a problem with me bringing in a stone but of course the price for the $1600 ring he is designing for me would go up without the package deal.

I asked about getting an ASET image and he was not familiar with ASET. When I explained it to him he said he had heard of it and looked into it a few years ago along with another type of imaging but said that was only really useful for looking for H+A in round stones and the machine was expensive so he didnt get into it.

So im not quite sure where this leaves me...are the handheld ASET scopes (the cheap ones) easy to use and accurate? Should I buy a few stones online, bring them into the store with my handheld scope, pick the best of his stones (using my newfound knowledge and the scope) and compare that to the online stones...then return the online stones I dont want?

Anyone have a better idea? Am I going to get hit with restocking fees or be an ******* to the online places if I buy 3 stones knowing I will be returning 2 or 3 of them?
 
I would not buy an EGL Europe stone. And would never recommend one to anyone. At all.

More research for you (you didn't think this would be easy did you?):

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/gia-vs-egl-usa-vs-egl-international-which-is-the-best-deal.162154/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/gia-vs-egl-usa-vs-egl-international-which-is-the-best-deal.162154/[/URL]

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/[/URL]

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/is-it-really-true-gia-ags-compared-to-egl.159873/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/is-it-really-true-gia-ags-compared-to-egl.159873/[/URL] (and here they are talking about EGL-USA which is GREAT compared to EGL Europe). An EGL_Europe F could easily be a GIA J. It has happened before. We've got a TON of threads on here where people have sent their EGL stones to GIA or AGS. The results are startling.

Aset, as for the handheld ASET, I have one and if you buy the light box it is very easy to use (I have the light box) If you don't buy the lightbox and use a flashlight AP on your smartphone and some tweezers (carefully, preferably jewelers tweezers), it's also easy.

But your jewelers stone isn't going to ASET out well. How do I know? It was sent to EGL Europe. Top cutting houses do not need or want to send their stones to EGL. And ESPECIALLY not EGL Europe. EGL trades at a huge discount. Why? Their grading is frankly crap and most of the stones sent there. Frankly, I wouldn't even shop at a place that carries EGL Europe stones because reputable jewelers who value their customers and their reputations don't sell them.

If you want the best your money can buy.... I really can't stress enough that this stone has the potential to ROCK. http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/1.04-carat-h-color-vvs2-clarity-sku-257263 Put it on hold.

JA has a 60 day return policy. No questions asked, and they pay shipping both ways. They also will get you an ASET image before you buy. My recommendation is this: put the JA stone on hold. Ask for the ASET. If it ASETs out, buy it. Then take it to the local store and compare it to that EGL stone. I guarantee you there will be no comparison.

Also, you need to know how to view stones in person. You can't just look at them under jewelers lights. But... more on that later.
 
Niel|1383699712|3551272 said:
You might throw this in the mix. Not a ct but not too deal. Leaves you enough for a Gabriel and co setting.

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/10789/
Click to expand...

Also this one an August Vintage cushion:

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/10787/

Also the antique cut rounds/ August Vintage Old European cuts can be set in a cushion setting and face up larger: 6.15mm

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/11014/

All the AVR's and AVC are great performers...you can't go wrong.

Here are some more antique cushions
This E SI1 is nice 1.06c :
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/10579/

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/10781/
 
inexplicable double post..
 
Thanks for the feedback. I dont think I will wind up going with the EGL stone. The guy likes to downplay the importance of light scopes or whatever and says if the stone looks better it just looks better...so I think bringing whatever I find online in to him to compare side by side with the store stone is a good way to show him that im giving him a fair shake.

I get what you're saying about not wanting to work with a jeweler who sells EGL europe but at this point I would probably lose some/all of my 500 deposit on the ring if I went somewhere else...and despite how this all must sound this is actually a big jewelry store in my area that seemed to be well regarded and until he proves me wrong (next week) I feel like they are definitely capable of delivering on the setting.

I put that JA stone on hold...I was holding off only because there are only 2 that you mentioned would be worth ASET scoping and they told me their inventory changes on fridays so I wanted to wait for my ASET request until friday on the off chance that they get another stone in worth considering.

in continuing to look around....just for the sake of conversation (im trying to learn and then look around using what I have learned etc)
What do you think of this
http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/0.721-e-vs1-cushion-diamond-ags-104067042016#!prettyPhoto[gallery2]/0/
It is quite a bit smaller than what I am looking for but it has interesting proportions which I think make it "face up" bigger than it is? Not trying to say that it is better than the JA stone we were just talking about but for the sake of comparison...this one has the H+A and is an E VS1. It is not perfectly square (not sure if that bothers me...) and its dimensions are 6.07x5.1x3.66.

Compare that to the JA stone which is 1.04c 5.74x5.8x3.95 H VVS2.

According to this:
**edited by moderator, no affiliate link websites please**

The face-up surface area is only 8% different...and that 8% gets you 3 upgrades in color and one step down in clarity. Light performance on the JA is TBD but the BG is H+A "ideal cut" and the ASET looks pretty dynamite right?

The issue according to **edited by moderator, no affiliate link websites please** is that the depth is too deep, and it is a borderline "spread cut". The issues they say with spread cut are that it will likely have poor light performance (doesnt seem to be the case with this stone) and it could have an extremely thin girdle which could be prone to chipping. Not sure how much of a concern the second thing is but it is listed as having a thin girdle.

Oh, and the (smaller, spread cut) H+A is $1,000 less than the other stone.

Thoughts?
 
Ahhhh. Just when start getting a hang of it, I'm about to throw you for a loop (or a loupe, since this is PS):

Click on the BGD link. See the stone? That's the actual stone. See how it is perfectly square? Then look at the dimensions. How can a perfectly square stone have 6.07 x 5.1 dimensions?

Answer? It can't.

That stone is actually 5.1 x 5.1. How do I know that? The first measurement listed, the 6.07 number on the BGD cushion lab reports are actually the diagonal measurement. There's no way you could know that. Its just a quirk of that particular lab report.

As for your deposit. Have they done any work yet? Because if not, you may be able to get it back. But, as long as they will set an outside stone for you in the setting with no more than a nominal fee ($100-ish), and INSURE IT WHILE SETTING, and they wait to make the custom setting till they have your actual stone's measurements... you should be okay.

It's a beautiful stone. But it is considerably smaller.
 
MattEffinCameron|1383804417|3552026 said:
The issue according to **edited by moderator, no affiliate link websites please** is that the depth is too deep, and it is a borderline "spread cut". The issues they say with spread cut are that it will likely have poor light performance (doesnt seem to be the case with this stone) and it could have an extremely thin girdle which could be prone to chipping. Not sure how much of a concern the second thing is but it is listed as having a thin girdle.


Thoughts?
Click to expand...


Also, the above? Total Crap. Disregard. They have no clue what they are talking about when it comes to ANY fancy cut (anything other than Modern Round Brilliant). I have typed in over fancy cut 20 stones in their 'advice' function and each time they have no idea what they are talking about.

None of these are too deep. Too deep is over 70, and even then it is dependent on facet pattern solely. Some facet patterns require certain depths in order to AVOID poor performance.

You can't tell crap about a fancy, ANY fancy, from just table and depth measurements. Let alone the information they use. It's a matter of angles and facet pattern and their simplistic tool is just flat out misleading.

They site is good for ONLY one thing. To see how the visual dimensions will look on the hand. And that's it.
 
I think the antique cushions from GOG look much better than anything JA has right now, maybe try again on Friday. Especially since you're going with a vintage inspired setting, I think it will be fitting.

your jeweler is correct, you don't need a scope to see if a diamond is better than another when they are right next to each other. however, that limits you to comparing what you have right in front of you. What if they're all crap and you're just picking the least crappy one? You can't compare the stones in front of you against the stones across town, or to online stones.
 
wow...thats quite a loop. If its 5.1 square (makes sense, it sure is square in the images) then its 28% difference in size from the JA....which makes sense since its like 28% less weight.

Can you be more specific with making sure the jeweler will insure the outside stone while setting? I assume you mean make sure if they damage it while setting they have insurance for that.....if they do should I expect some paperwork indicating that is the case or just take their word for it? What is typical? Also how would I know if they chipped it or did something subtle while setting it that I cant see because it is right on a prong or something?

Ariel: Thanks for your suggestions....I have watched some videos from GOG on youtube and think I prefer the modern cut vs vintage. Im not real passionate one way or the other and depending on which side of the bed I wake up on tomorrow could change my tune but I generally find that cross in the center of the vintage stones to be a little distracting and wonder if the girl when comparing her stone with everyone else's will (without any diamond education or anything) appreciate the uniqueness of her vintage cut or feel like her stone is less sparkly than all her friends' round stones.

Thats good input Julie about the need for a scope...maybe I will save $$ and not buy a scope, just use the ASET images to compare online diamonds, then buy one or two and compare them in-store in person without a scope to see which one looks better. Presumably the higher quality AGS/GIA stones that I have seen good ASET scores for will shine (even to my amateur eyes) when compared to the store stone.
 
JulieN|1383805784|3552042 said:
I think the antique cushions from GOG look much better than anything JA has right now, maybe try again on Friday. Especially since you're going with a vintage inspired setting, I think it will be fitting.
Click to expand...

I just said I wasnt interested in vintage cuts, then reread your post and saw this part of it....and considered that the stone in the picture I found of the ring (which I liked) was an old mine cut (vintage).....maybe it would make sense to get one vintage cut for comparison.

Again, am I going to have any problems or am I doing anything inappropriate if I order like, one stone from BGD, one from JA, and one from GOG and compare them in store to the ones he has?
 
No, that's fine. There's always the chance you keep one of them. I don't think anyone has restocking fees but you will either lose your bank wire fee (if you so choose) or you pay the higher CC price. Also shipping fees, I dn't know if some vendors charge you both ways if you return? Read the fine print.
 
You are a great person to help. So many great questions.

So, before you turn over any outside stone to any jeweler you have to ask: Does you insurance cover my stone while setting? If the answer is 'yes'... then when you give them the stone they should give you a ticket for it and on that ticket it should list everything about the stone. So usually they will list the following: Lab report number, color, clarity, shape, weight. Estimated value (you can show them your receipt and they should list that value on the ticket). Their OWN observation of the stone's condition. So if the stone is damaged, they should have a diagram picture of the stone with the damage shown with notations. If the stone is undamaged they should note that. AND THEN, they should have a statement right there on the ticket that states that the stone is covered by their insurance while in their possession and during the setting process against loss or damage.

If the answer is NO, my insurance does not cover it. Then the ticket should list all of the above. But have a statement on the ticket that says that it is NOT covered while it is being set (but still should still be covered in the event they lose it or something that has nothing to do with the setting). AND THEN YOU NEED TO GET YOUR OWN INSURANCE FOR IT.

So what do I mean by that? You have to get the ring insured anyway. They only difference is instead of waiting till after the thing is complete to get it insured privately. You get the unset stone insured before setting (Jewelers Mutual is most recommended, but a rider on your home owners or renters could work too... but those are MUCH harder to deal with, trust me). Now most insurances will NOT insure unset stones, with the exception of it as part of a ring, and while it is being initially set. So... all that means is you submit your information on the stone BEFORE you get it set. Then you tell the insurance company who is working on it and give them a receipt from the jeweler who is setting your stone, that verifies that you paid a deposit, lists the setting information description and then it is insured during the setting.

Now, what happens AFTER you pick up the ring. You take possession ONLY after you look at that sucker at EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE ANGLE under a SUPER MAGNIFIED Loupe (most jewelers will have large 40x loupes or something greater than 10x). And EVEN THEN, the best thing to do is LIST on the ticket that states that you are taking the ring that you will be getting it appraised within 7 days (or however many days it will take you till your appraisal appointment), to ensure that there is no issue such as a manufacturing defect or damage to the stone.

Then you get it appraised. What does that mean? You do not go to a rival jeweler. Or ANY jeweler to get an appraisal. You get an appraisal as soon you can (before ANYONE wears it) from an INDEPENDENT appraiser (see link here: https://www.pricescope.com/appraisers ) and then you get the report from them if there is any issue. And you take it back and then you work with the jeweler to resolve. If there is no issue, then... enjoy.
 
JulieN|1383807110|3552050 said:
No, that's fine. There's always the chance you keep one of them. I don't think anyone has restocking fees but you will either lose your bank wire fee (if you so choose) or you pay the higher CC price. Also shipping fees, I dn't know if some vendors charge you both ways if you return? Read the fine print.
Click to expand...


JA does not. But it is best to ask from any jeweler about the return shipping charges. They all have different return periods too. So mind that as well.


Also... Matt I agree with you about the prominent maltese cross in the AVC's and many antique or antique style cushions. I find them distracting too. And it is apparent in person, and hard to overlook.
 
Gypsy|1383807579|3552055 said:
You are a great person to help. So many great questions.

So, before you turn over any outside stone to any jeweler you have to ask: Does you insurance cover my stone while setting? If the answer is 'yes'... then when you give them the stone they should give you a ticket for it and on that ticket it should list everything about the stone. So usually they will list the following: Lab report number, color, clarity, shape, weight. Estimated value (you can show them your receipt and they should list that value on the ticket). Their OWN observation of the stone's condition. So if the stone is damaged, they should have a diagram picture of the stone with the damage shown with notations. If the stone is undamaged they should note that. AND THEN, they should have a statement right there on the ticket that states that the stone is covered by their insurance while in their possession and during the setting process against loss or damage.

If the answer is NO, my insurance does not cover it. Then the ticket should list all of the above. But have a statement on the ticket that says that it is NOT covered while it is being set (but still should still be covered in the event they lose it or something that has nothing to do with the setting). AND THEN YOU NEED TO GET YOUR OWN INSURANCE FOR IT.

So what do I mean by that? You have to get the ring insured anyway. They only difference is instead of waiting till after the thing is complete to get it insured privately. You get the unset stone insured before setting (Jewelers Mutual is most recommended, but a rider on your home owners or renters could work too... but those are MUCH harder to deal with, trust me). Now most insurances will NOT insure unset stones, with the exception of it as part of a ring, and while it is being initially set. So... all that means is you submit your information on the stone BEFORE you get it set. Then you tell the insurance company who is working on it and give them a receipt from the jeweler who is setting your stone, that verifies that you paid a deposit, lists the setting information description and then it is insured during the setting.

Now, what happens AFTER you pick up the ring. You take possession ONLY after you look at that sucker at EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE ANGLE under a SUPER MAGNIFIED Loupe (most jewelers will have large 40x loupes or something greater than 10x). And EVEN THEN, the best thing to do is LIST on the ticket that states that you are taking the ring that you will be getting it appraised within 7 days (or however many days it will take you till your appraisal appointment), to ensure that there is no issue such as a manufacturing defect or damage to the stone.

Then you get it appraised. What does that mean? You do not go to a rival jeweler. Or ANY jeweler to get an appraisal. You get an appraisal as soon you can (before ANYONE wears it) from an INDEPENDENT appraiser (see link here: https://www.pricescope.com/appraisers ) and then you get the report from them if there is any issue. And you take it back and then you work with the jeweler to resolve. If there is no issue, then... enjoy.
Click to expand...

OMG. Best advice ever. This needs to go in a reference thread if it isn't here already. Thanks Gypsy!! OP, sorry for the thread jack! But no kidding this is invaluable advice.
 
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