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Is It Really True? GIA/AGS Compared To EGL

DanMgy

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 10, 2011
Messages
39
I read everywhere that EGL graded diamonds have a very loose/wide range for their grading compared to GIA or AGS. That if you purchase an EGL you can expect it to be roughly between 1 to 3 grades lower on a GIA or AGS report. I have looked high and low and all over the internet, but all I can see is everybody talking and stating this. The one thing I have yet to see is the actual proof.

Has anybody actually seen or can somebody actually produce an EGL and GIA or AGS report for the same exact diamond?

Looking at GIA's website it only cost about $100 (gove or take) to get a diamond graded, so I am wondering if any vendor or consumer has actually sent an EGL graded diamond to get graded by GIA or AGS? I would think the easiest way to track and ensure it is the same diamond is the EGL diamonds has some type of laser inscription so it would should show on both reports. I think I saw a few places where people have said they have done this, but yet nobody can seem to produce the proof and show the reports. Am I wrong to want to see the actual proof? Is it out there?
 

Stone-cold11

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Messages
14,069
Think about it this way.

If they are really the same grade, why on Earth would the jeweler not just send it to AGS/GIA to get it graded, if is a cheap process, about 2-300 USD, 1-2 weeks wait and selling price can easily be 20% greater?
 

DanMgy

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 10, 2011
Messages
39
Haven|1303769411|2904826 said:

It is an interesting study but it was done in 2004 so the data is not current. Even the GIA changed/modified their grading system in 2006 so you can not say the information is factual based on today's standard. Plus the only talk about the data they do not show the actual proof of the stones nor reports.
 

John Pollard

Ideal_Rock
Trade
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Messages
3,559
I posted this last month in another thread.

There are EGL-USA reports which are on-par with GIA but the majority of reports - and historic reputation - are considered soft. EGL-USA is aware of this I am sure. but they face a 'Catch-22'... If they adjust strictness their (large!) client-base has expectations... and any change upsets the current balance.. "Hey! What the #$%? EGL is giving us Gs where they used to give us Fs?! Forget it, we should just send to GIA instead..."

I'm aware of individual cases which defy the larger (soft) reputation but in my experience these are not the norm. And it is "the norm" which has eroded confidence online, and explains why EGL is rarely seen among Pricescope sellers.

Here are two stories (opposites) followed by some stats which are more relevant than any isolated one-of experiences.

1) In February one of our dealers brought-in two EGL-USA graded princess cuts at the request of a salesperson. Each was 2+ cts, F-VS1 and F-VS2. I saw them come in. I placed them upside-down in a (standard) folded white grading-card next to an AGS I-color princess of same size. I showed them to the sales-mgr, the owner and the store gemologist, asking what colors we were looking at. The gemologist graded them all I at a north-facing window. So did the sales-mgr. The owner used a desk grading lamp and graded them I-J-H. None of them could believe they had just looked at two paper "Fs" among the three... Guess what kind of reputation EGL-USA earned that day? :blackeye:

2) Last month a colleague who made a purchase with a supplier in-person told me this story: The diamonds he bought (all triple-EX RBs) came with EGL-USA reports. But he uses GIA exclusively, so he sent them there. When they returned the results were as-follows.

Weight...EGL...GIA
1.01...G SI1...H VS2
1.09...H SI1...H SI1
1.24...E SI1...F SI2
1.14...I SI1...I SI1
0.71...G SI1...G SI1

Wow. In contrast to the "the norm" these grades were quite close to GIA and EGL-USA was stricter in clarity in one case. This is much different than my prior story. I must mention that the supplier-in-question is a player of extremely high regard. My personal opinion is that - when this supplier sent goods to EGL-USA - a different (stricter) standard was applied in the spirit of fostering goodwill and business with such a prominent entity. Again, that is MY opinion only.

Finally, some statistics:

This may be most-interesting in terms of a "state-of-the-EGL-union". It might also relax the tightened neck-muscles of all the NY 47th-street guys who just got upset when reading story #2... :Up_to_something:

On March 30 I did a practical EGL-USA versus GIA comparison: I searched the most prominent B2B network for available 1.00-1.09 D-VS2 RBs (neg fl). If we treat the most-expensive diamond as priced-at 13,000 (user-agreements prevent use of actual numbers)...

GIA 3EX results ranged from $11,000 to $13,000. Average price was $12,000.
EGL USA Ideals ranged from $6,900 to $7,700. Average price was $7,300.

I then investigated I-VS2 (a larger sample size was available). If we treat the most-expensive diamond as $9000:

GIA 3EX results ranged from $7650 to $9000. Average price was $8300.
EGL USA Ideals ranged from $4320 to $6030. Average price was $5400.

So, no matter your opinion, there is significant de-valuation by the trade-at-large for EGL-USA compared to GIA. Why? Because the trade-at-large believes EGL-USA to be softer. In fact the average valuation is generally between 1-2 color and clarity grades lower...which (coincidentally) is how many dealers describe EGL-USA certs vs GIA certs. Is this a chicken-egg prospect? I don't know.

Is is unfortunate that "the norm" overshadows the good work being done in that lab. Branko Deljanin was EGL-USA's Director of Research for many years and spearheaded some of the greatest advances we enjoy in detection of synthetics and treatments...but you rarely hear about that... You only hear about how they compare to GIA in grading.

Original thread
https://www.pricescope.com/forum/di...gaming-them-an-eternal-story-t157859-210.html
 

DanMgy

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 10, 2011
Messages
39
slg47|1303770127|2904832 said:
there are several stories of consumers that you can find where they purchased an EGL diamond (usually not EGL-USA, those tend to be better), where it came back several grades lower in the appraisal.

Mayk's story comes to mind
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/diamond-does-not-match-certificate.156526/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/diamond-does-not-match-certificate.156526/[/URL]

Just read the story and here are my thoughts looking at it from the other angle and a few points to think about:

1. The store she went to was NOT the original store it was bought from.
2. No where does she ever show any documentation about her EGL certificate.
3. The store just made a sale.
4. She was going off what the store said NOT what the GIA or AGS report said about HER original stone.
5. Never said what other data points were off besides the length


She never said what the EGL specs where besides the length, what was the cut of the symmetry of the diamond? If that was VG or even Good, then the numbers could certainly be off. I read that story and I see a store telling a woman she got a raw deal and to pay more for a "better" diamond... or maybe I am wrong?
 

DanMgy

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 10, 2011
Messages
39
Stone-cold11|1303771350|2904841 said:
Think about it this way.

If they are really the same grade, why on Earth would the jeweler not just send it to AGS/GIA to get it graded, if is a cheap process, about 2-300 USD, 1-2 weeks wait and selling price can easily be 20% greater?
Great point, you tell me? Why is a Hyundai Genesis so much cheaper than a Lexus GS or a BMW 5 series?

Still does not answer or address my question.
 

DanMgy

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 10, 2011
Messages
39
John Pollard|1303774235|2904881 said:
I posted this last month in another thread.
1) In February one of our dealers brought-in two EGL-USA graded princess cuts at the request of a salesperson. Each was 2+ cts, F-VS1 and F-VS2. I saw them come in. I placed them upside-down in a (standard) folded white grading-card next to an AGS I-color princess of same size. I showed them to the sales-mgr, the owner and the store gemologist, asking what colors we were looking at. The gemologist graded them all I at a north-facing window. So did the sales-mgr. The owner used a desk grading lamp and graded them I-J-H. None of them could believe they had just looked at two paper "Fs" among the three... Guess what kind of reputation EGL-USA earned that day? :blackeye:Original thread
https://www.pricescope.com/communit...nd-gaming-them-an-eternal-story.157859/page-8
Original thread

Besides you telling us, do you have any other documents or photos you can share?


John Pollard|1303774235|2904881 said:
2) Last month a colleague who made a purchase with a supplier in-person told me this story: The diamonds he bought (all triple-EX RBs) came with EGL-USA reports. But he uses GIA exclusively, so he sent them there. When they returned the results were as-follows.

Weight...EGL...GIA
1.01...G SI1...H VS2
1.09...H SI1...H SI1
1.24...E SI1...F SI2
1.14...I SI1...I SI1
0.71...G SI1...G SI1



Original thread
https://www.pricescope.com/communit...nd-gaming-them-an-eternal-story.157859/page-8

I would love to see the grading reports on those, do you or your friend have them to post and show everybody the actual evidence? I am more certianly not trying to stir the pot, it just seems nobody read my post. I have heard tons of these stores, but yet not one person can show actual evidence. That is what I am looking for. I am not trying to mock you, but I have tons of stories to, I even have some great fishing stories. You should have seen the size of the fish I caught, it was <----------------> this big..... wait it was actually <-----------------------------------------> this now that I think about it. Everybody hears about that and thinks in the back of their head, uh huh yeah sure right. But when you see actually see the fish, no doubt any more. See what I am getting at?
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
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Messages
31,586
i can tell you is much...
one of my wife's earring is graded "ideal cut" VG,VG, G VS2 by EGL U.S.A. and the other one is graded GD,GD,H SI1 by GIA and they both cost exactly the same price,both weight .72ct ea.
 

DanMgy

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 10, 2011
Messages
39
Just so I am clear, I truly and honestly do appreciate all the feedback and everybody taking the time to respond to my post. I would not look to waste my time and ever more so your time just to spin the wheels.

Everybody has a story but it seems nobody has hard proof to actually show.
 

DanMgy

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 10, 2011
Messages
39
Dancing Fire|1303775184|2904900 said:
i can tell you is much...
one of my wife's earring is graded "ideal cut" VG,VG, G VS2 by EGL U.S.A. and the other one is graded GD,GD,H SI1 by GIA and they both cost exactly the same price,both weight .72ct ea.
And what is the difference between the two? From what I am seeing it seems that you over paid for the GIA unless I am missing something?
 

Stone-cold11

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
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Messages
14,069
The proof is in the market. EGL graded stone are traded amongst jeweler for a discount. There are people like you that fish, can see the stones themselves, have enough training, experience to tell the difference between grades to get a good deal. Most do not and are buying from just the paper grade and the price they get based on the paper grade. If the paper grade is the same as the real grade, why is there a difference in price then?

DanMgy said:
Great point, you tell me? Why is a Hyundai Genesis so much cheaper than a Lexus GS or a BMW 5 series?

Still does not answer or address my question.
Are they the same? You mean to tell me a Hyundai Genesis has the same engine, the entire machine is assembled in the same tolerance? Your example is more like the difference between a sapphire and a diamond, not between 2 diamonds.
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Messages
31,586
DanMgy|1303775480|2904904 said:
Dancing Fire|1303775184|2904900 said:
i can tell you is much...
one of my wife's earring is graded "ideal cut" VG,VG, G VS2 by EGL U.S.A. and the other one is graded GD,GD,H SI1 by GIA and they both cost exactly the same price,both weight .72ct ea.
And what is the difference between the two? From what I am seeing it seems that you over paid for the GIA unless I am missing something?
nahh...i stole the EGL stone... :praise: should i tell the vendor?
 

John Pollard

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
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Messages
3,559
DanMgy|1303775205|2904901 said:
Everybody has a story but it seems nobody has hard proof to actually show.
Many pros regularly see duplicate reports, especially when purchasing with large international wholesalers with offices in Antwerp, HK, NYC, Mumbai, etc. who serve multiple markets. Some diamonds have up to three separate reports. Purchases are typically delivered with only one however (someone with different experience may chime in). I can ask my friend if he saved the original EGL reports for the diamonds he had regraded by GIA but, again, even his single story - regardless of fish size - cannot describe the whole lake.

But there is a more robust proof, to which you did not respond when I posted it above. It does take the whole lake into account, and the size of the fish is measured in the hardest proof of all... Valuation.

Again:

On March 30 I did a practical EGL-USA versus GIA comparison: I searched the most prominent B2B network for available 1.00-1.09 D-VS2 RBs (neg fl). If we treat the most-expensive diamond as priced-at 13,000 (user-agreements prevent use of actual numbers)...

GIA 3EX results ranged from $11,000 to $13,000. Average price was $12,000.
EGL USA Ideals ranged from $6,900 to $7,700. Average price was $7,300.

I then investigated I-VS2 (a larger sample size was available). If we treat the most-expensive diamond as $9000:

GIA 3EX results ranged from $7650 to $9000. Average price was $8300.
EGL USA Ideals ranged from $4320 to $6030. Average price was $5400.

So, no matter your opinion, there is significant de-valuation by the trade-at-large for EGL-USA compared to GIA. Why? Because the trade-at-large believes EGL-USA to be softer. In fact the average valuation is generally between 1-2 color and clarity grades lower...which (coincidentally) is how many dealers describe EGL-USA certs vs GIA certs. Is this a chicken-egg prospect? I don't know.
 

denverappraiser

Ideal_Rock
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8,749
I see the problem fairly regularly and I’ll see what I can do to post some samples. I can’t post them from my clients without their permission but I know a few I can ask. It's not nearly the conspiracy that you think. Part of the problem is that it’s no accident when this happens. Why would ANYONE take a known ‘bad’ EGL and PAY good money to send it to GIA? They bought it knowing what it was, and almost certainly they bought it because the price was attractive. If they decide they don’t want it, the solution is to send it back, not to send it in for a different brand of lab. This happens at wholesale as well as retail so really, the only visible trail happens the other direction. That is to say, someone, usually a dealer, sends a stone to GIA, doesn’t care for the results for whatever reason, and sends it to EGL, XYZ or whatever for an ‘upgrade’. This results in the dealer having a stone with 2 (or more) reports and they conveniently lose those that doesn’t suit their cause. If the ‘upgrade’ isn’t enough to justify the EGL discount they sell it with the GIA paper and if it allows them to bump the price despite the discount then they sell it with the EGL. It’s never offered for sale with both so few people see the ‘wrong’ report.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
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If GIA graded a stone D IF, what would EGL grade it?
 

Stone-cold11

Super_Ideal_Rock
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kenny|1303777644|2904939 said:
If GIA graded a stone D IF, what would EGL grade it?
Question is more like why would anyone want to sent it to EGL in that case, unless the cut is defective?
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Messages
31,586
kenny|1303777644|2904939 said:
If GIA graded a stone D IF, what would EGL grade it?
B Flawless ???... :read:
 

wreckem

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Messages
49
Just because no one here has proof at hand, doesn't mean it is incorrect.

In my town, the majority of jewelers sell EGL cert'ed diamonds, if they have cert's at all. One place, a high end and locally owned non-chain store, only sells GIA/AGS cert'ed diamonds. They are extremely reputable, if not for the retail markup I would likely go with them. They had proof, I saw original cert's from AGS and EGL for the diamond in question. Sales gimmick, yeah, but the cert's were legit none the less.
 

Mayk

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I am traveling but I am happy to post the certificate. I still have a duplicate. I also still have second appraisal. We made a huge mistake purchasing an EGL diamond and I went back to the original jeweler to upgrade to an AGS diamond. The local jeweler had nothing to gain. He was simply replacing a stone I lost and for insurance purposes I asked for a second appraisal. I had no idea. I didn't find this website until after it happened. I was beside myself. So say what you would like. I am new here but it sounds like you are here to try and sell your opinion. My experience tells me I would buy a GIA or AGS diamond smaller and bringer everyday and spend more to get what I want as far as color or clarity.
 

DanMgy

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Messages
39
I completely understand everybody's point, I am not here to argue that or say anybody is wrong. What I am looking for is a actual comparison of the same stone graded by EGL as well as GIA/AGS. There is a huge debate about all of these and even GIA vs. AGS, that is not the purpose of my post. If you read what I wrote, I am simple asking does anybody or can anybody show, not tell a story or share an experience, or give expert opinion, not even show an appraisal, but actually SHOW the true comparison between the two certificates? :?:

I could go one about reasons and other specifics and address why pricing is what it is, but that is not the purpose of THIS post. I want to see ACTUAL evidence.

So does anybody have any they can share or know where I can see any? :confused:
 

coda72

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1,633
I think someone already said this, but seldom is a stone sent to two different labs for grading. If it was sent to EGL, rarely will the stone then be sent to GIA to get a second report. So, you aren't going to find many examples of what you seek. Also, I think it's a little unfair to be questioning John Pollard's post since he probably sees many more diamonds in one day than you and I will see in a year's time, and he would have no reason to exaggerate what he saw.
 

mseh3737

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John Pollard|1303777449|2904933 said:
DanMgy|1303775205|2904901 said:
Everybody has a story but it seems nobody has hard proof to actually show.
So, no matter your opinion, there is significant de-valuation by the trade-at-large for EGL-USA compared to GIA. Why? Because the trade-at-large believes EGL-USA to be softer. In fact the average valuation is generally between 1-2 color and clarity grades lower...which (coincidentally) is how many dealers describe EGL-USA certs vs GIA certs. Is this a chicken-egg prospect? I don't know.
Well...considering the source, I think you have got some fairly solid comments from John. It's just factual that the EGL in general is softer on grading, and when you get beyond EGL-USA, it can get even hairier. The fact remains that all of the EGL labs are just not consistent amongst themselves. This is fairly well known in the industry. Similarly graded EGL certed diamonds are less expensive than GIA certed diamonds because you aren't comparing apples to apples. The chain of distribution can and will take advantage of this inconsistency. Think of a franchise in other industries...you hope that the consistency is the same as the one you went to last week, but it isn't always the case. My 2 cents. :D
 

confusedaisy

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 4, 2011
Messages
362
Did you read this:
John Pollard|1303777449|2904933 said:
DanMgy|1303775205|2904901 said:
On March 30 I did a practical EGL-USA versus GIA comparison: I searched the most prominent B2B network for available 1.00-1.09 D-VS2 RBs (neg fl). If we treat the most-expensive diamond as priced-at 13,000 (user-agreements prevent use of actual numbers)...

GIA 3EX results ranged from $11,000 to $13,000. Average price was $12,000.
EGL USA Ideals ranged from $6,900 to $7,700. Average price was $7,300.

I then investigated I-VS2 (a larger sample size was available). If we treat the most-expensive diamond as $9000:

GIA 3EX results ranged from $7650 to $9000. Average price was $8300.
EGL USA Ideals ranged from $4320 to $6030. Average price was $5400.
This is the proof you keep asking for/ignoring.

Also, if you look through Mayk's old topics you will see her story about her old EGL stone that was graded off by 3 color grades by EGL. What other proof do you need? If you're that interested I suggest you buy an EGL stone with a 30 day return and get it independently appraised by a certified GIA gemologist. If you decide to do this, please come back with your results.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
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8,187
When I look on the Internet, other than on well informed forum sites like this one, what I see is many many sellers trying to pass on EGL diamonds at parity with GIA  graded diamonds. This is a great disservice to consumers. I actually do have a few cases of stones and have EGL reports, which I subsequently submitted to GIA. The results are startling.
 I'm not in the office right now but I will post these later.
 

DanMgy

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 10, 2011
Messages
39
coda72|1303834895|2905402 said:
So, you aren't going to find many examples of what you seek.
That right there is the SOLE purpose of my post. I have not seen ANY, ZERO, NONE, ZILCH examples, nor has anybody been able to produce any.


coda72|1303834895|2905402 said:
Also, I think it's a little unfair to be questioning John Pollard's post since he probably sees many more diamonds in one day than you and I will see in a year's time, and he would have no reason to exaggerate what he saw.
Please do not misinterupt what I am asking for or saying, the experts on here are experts, I am not doubting that or questioning that. I am simple asking for the hard line proof. I think it would fair to say that one persons evaluation could varify from another.

If all the vendors (online retailers) that swear and state that EGL is so much worse and there is true value in purchasing a diamond that has GIA or AGS certification, why have none of them spent the $100 (give or take) to actually show the actual proof? I do not mean their opinions, or independent appraisals, I mean the same diamond with EGL and GIA or AGS certificate? :confused:
 

DanMgy

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 10, 2011
Messages
39
Rockdiamond|1303841798|2905479 said:
I actually do have a few cases of stones and have EGL reports, which I subsequently submitted to GIA. The results are startling.  I'm not in the office right now but I will post these later.
That is exactly what I am looking for... I would LOVE to see them!!! :appl:
 

DanMgy

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 10, 2011
Messages
39
confusedaisy|1303841388|2905473 said:
This is the proof you keep asking for/ignoring.
confuseddaisy, that is not the proof I am asking for NOR ignoring. I recognize and acknowledge it, that is a person where their profession is to look at an understand diamonds. I am not question anybody's ability, I am questioning the actual reports! Do you see/understand the difference?

confusedaisy|1303841388|2905473 said:
Also, if you look through Mayk's old topics you will see her story about her old EGL stone that was graded off by 3 color grades by EGL. What other proof do you need? If you're that interested I suggest you buy an EGL stone with a 30 day return and get it independently appraised by a certified GIA gemologist. If you decide to do this, please come back with your results.
I have read LOTS and LOTS of stories, I said that in my original post, go up and take a look. Why don't I buy a diamond and do it? I am hoping somebody else already has, somebody that is in this business as a professional. I am hoping to take advantage of the resources on this forum.


Just so everybody knows I am NOT contesting that EGL is as good or grades as the same level as GIA or AGS, I am simple looking for actual unbiased or opinioned proof. I do not want an apples to apples comparison, I want a golden delicious apple to golden delicious apple comparison.
 

Mayk

Ideal_Rock
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4,568
As a consumer not a "trade person" I will tell you my fiance's both college grads with great jobs went shopping and thought the 4 C's were what we needed to know. We looked at a number of rings and felt the "name brands" were driving up the prices. We were in San Francisco on a romantic getaway.. fell in love with a setting and made a decision. The ring sat in a safe deposit box for five month.. he proposed.. within three weeks I had lost a stone in the halo. When I went to get the stone replace the jeweler drew a diagram of my diamond on the receipt and I noticed the markings were "more pronounced" than in the certificate. I also was asked to look at the stone and see the markings and initial his drawing. (this is a jewelwer in Jacksonville Beach.. very well respected). I told my Fiance's that something felt strange to me. We both decided we need a second appraisal. The stone from EGL was rated a G/VS2 1.21 ct. This jeweler did not know that I never told him anything or provided him with any paperwork. When it was returned to me with the apprasial the sales lady just handed me the ring and the appraisal there was not "big" meeting to discuss. I opened the apprasial and my heart sunk.. I began my research on the web to understand.. I found this website. I decided while I was not thrilled with the jeweler my best bet was to dance with the devil I went to the dance with.. so I called and asked about an upgrade and I told him I wanted a GIA or AGS stone and we prepared to pay the difference. He located an AGS 000 G VS2... I paid the difference and it was put in a new setting. (as a side note I have had issues with my setting also..losing stones I am replacing it this month before the wedding.. not what you want your preplanning of a wedding to be.. I would rather be fussing over flowers)... But I have studied this stone closely with a loupe and with the UNTRAINED eye of a consumer (VERY ROUGH ROCK).. I can see the huge difference.

So my suggestion is buy a loupe and start studying the diamonds you are looking at.. if I am a complete and total novice and I could see the difference... then that right there should scare you.

I think this site does an OUTSTANDING job educating you to be prepared to know YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!!!

I am IN LOVE with my stone. It is so beautiful and returns light.. on the beach it is absolutely blinding. I wish I could hug all the PSr's on here who helped me.. and made suggestions. I can tell you my next stone purchase which I am working on now to fill the current setting will come from the vendors here...

Dude... take the time read the posts... not just this tread.. I read coutless articles on the web.. my stone was graded by EGL Belgium. I couldn't even find the stinking certificate on their website.. I checked ever EGL Website.. USA, Isreal, South Africa.. I did so much research my head and stomach hurt... So get busy and get educated and then.. have this wonderful feeling in your stomach when you find the stone that sings to you...

Uninformend.. consumer... :read: :read: :read:
 
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