Good Old Gold Clarity Enhanced diamond

[Rhino]

Good morning all,

By answering Gypsy's post it will answer most questions.

I don't think it cheapens the brand, as a one off. As in, they made a mistake and weren't able to move this piece and decided the solution was to have this one CE. I wouldn't appreciate it and do think it would cheapen the brand if they did it routinely.

I'm sure someone will snatch it up for a pendant, though for the price I'd rather have an unenhanced 'real' antique OEC BY FAR rather than an enhanced AVC.

I am not sure I'd call this a mistake. A business has various and all kinds of clients. I see no reason why a business shouldn't cater to all of them if they can.


It is already gone.

The mistake I'm referring to is picking that particular rough to make into an AVC.

What I mean is, it would cheapen it for me if they routinely used very included, inferior, rough that required clarity enhancement of the final product to make it eyclean.

I'm sorry if I didn't make myself more clear but in my post I stated that we frequently purchase estate diamonds from the public which we will then recut. This is the case with that particular diamond. When we purchase rough to cut to AVC/AVR my aim is really for no lower than VS2 however its almost impossible to not pick up a business of rough, when it becomes available and not avoid getting SI's. In the clip posted previsouly of the 1.7xct that is something that did happen on the cutters wheel. An unfortunate event that caused the diamond to be an Imperfect with a large feather right under the table. It was unmarketable with that large feather (as was the .8xct) and clarity enhancing the diamond only made sense. Today someone is enjoying an eye clean 1.7xct AVC they purchased at an "I" price. Due to the nature of how we go about producing the August Vintage line these are exceptions to the rule.

As for a business catering to all. To me, if you upcharge heavily for a brand name the way GOG does with the AVCs-- there is an implication of exclusivity and of quality. And CE diamonds are inferior to natural ones-- which is why they cost so much less. They are enhanced. They are not top quality.

Gypsy, do you understand why ideal cut diamonds are cut in the first place? AVC's aside, as I perform a national query for round diamonds, GIA Ex's (not even counting VG, G, F, P) 1ct H SI1 I pull up hundreds of options with prices ranging from $5700 to over 8k. And this within the Excellent grade alone. We are talking over a 30% difference in value. Can you even begin to fathom what seperates the least expensive to the most valuable among these GIA Ex's? Would you equally claim the most valuable are heavily upcharging? If so, you are sorely mistaken. Gypsy, please understand that the goal of my service, our business model as GOG is to answer those questions for the public. To show and demonstrate why one GIA Ex does indeed cost over 30% for sound gemological reasons.

When I began cutting the AV line I knew we would lose roughly 20% of the weight from the rough when we were going to cut these. I could very easily do what 99% of other cutting facilities are doing and cut for weight. That is not the path I have chosen. One facility looks at a piece of rough and says I can get a 1ct out of this. I look at the same piece of rough and say I want a diamond that will shine like no other even if it weighs 15-22% less.

You can't have it both ways. Either you can justify your branding upcharge with exclusivity and quality assurances-- in which case you are responsible for monitoring your brand to ensure that you maintain that quality and exclusivity-- OR you can NOT upcharge for brand and try to reach a broader customer base by lowering your costs using inferior (like the CE) materials. But to do both doesn't work. And you will loose customers if you upcharge for brand while at the same time using inferior quality materials. Just the reality of the market place. It it was a good idea to do this you can BET that Hearts on Fire or De Beers would have done it before now. It's not, and it cheapens your brand.

You're not getting it Gypsy. As stated ... CE AVC/AVR is an exception to the rule and you need to try to understand why within the GIA EX grade alone there is over a 30% difference in value. I have devoted my life and my business to understanding why. It's why we do what we do. If you'd like some videos I've produced on these very subjects demonstrating why I can begin to help you to understand what makes these seperations.

Kind regards,
Rhino

 

[kenny]

Just because it sold does not mean success.
Sure GOG maximized their return on investment on that challenged stone, BUT, at a cost to the brand that is impossible to measure.

People vary and some will see it as tarnishing the August Vintage brand.
If I paid the premium for one I would not be pleased.
Similarly, if I had paid the premium for a Tiffany diamond years ago I would not be pleased by Tiffany's recent decision to sell SI diamonds, or sell all that cheap sterling silver stuff, playing cards, and coffee mugs.



Also, when gauging the public's response to an AV with CE we must take into account the powerful PS code of niceness.
98% of regulars here follow mom's credo, "If you can't say anything nice, then don't say anything at all".
We do NOT get a cross section of gut reactions here.
We only hear what is socially acceptable in this community.
People who think a AV with CE does tarnish the brand will just stay silent on this thread, but you can be sure this event will come to mind if they ever consider paying the premium for an AV in the future.

If this stone was included (pardon the pun) in a parcel of rough it could have been sold off to another business with no fancy brand to protect.
Lots of businesses have the business model of selling CE diamonds.

Sure, GOG did make a few hundred dollars more on this challenged diamond, but they will never know what what it cost them in the long run.

 

[Circe]

Just because it sold does not mean success.
Sure GOG maximized their return on investment on that challenged stone, BUT, at a cost to the brand that is impossible to measure.

People vary and some will see it as tarnishing the August Vintage brand.
If I paid the premium for one I would not be pleased.
Similarly, if I had paid the premium for a Tiffany diamond years ago I would not be pleased by Tiffany's recent decision to sell SI diamonds, or sell all that cheap sterling silver stuff, playing cards, and coffee mugs.

Also, when gauging the public's response to an AV with CE we must take into account the powerful PS code of niceness.
98% of regulars here follow mom's credo, "If you can't say anything nice, then don't say anything at all".
We do NOT get a cross section of reactions here, only those that are socially acceptable in this community.
People who think a AV with CE does tarnish the brand will just stay silent on this thread, but you can be sure this event will come to mind if they ever consider paying the premium for an AV in the future.

If this stone was included (pardon the pun) in a parcel of rough it could have been sold off to another business with no fancy brand to protect.
Lots of businesses have the business model of selling CE diamonds.

Sure, GOG did make a few hundred dollars more on this challenged diamond, but they will never know what what it cost them in the long run.

Since they did start out as a general store, it's not exactly out of character ... and it certainly doesn't appear to have hurt their market share.

 

[winternight]

So I'm curious how much was the diamond in question selling for?

As someone with Tiffany diamond jewelry I do think it has cheapened the brand.
For me personally. I have no opinion on this particular transaction.

 

[kenny]

So I'm curious how much was the diamond in question selling for?

IIRC, just over $1500.

 

[Rhino]

Hi Ken,

Do you really think I did it simply for a couple hundred bucks? If I thought it was the wrong thing to do no amount of money can buy me my friend.

Just to give you an insight to my frame of mind when rare instances like this happen...

I see a diamond with glaring eye visible inclusions that is cut beautifully but lacks transparency because of the inclusions ...

My first thought isn't ... "Who am I going to offend if I make it eye clean?"

My thought is "What can I do to make this more beautiful and desireable to the eyes."

I didn't raise the price on the diamond when we did that so you can't claim I did it for money. Instead we invested more capital to make it transparent and look like it should. I make less but help it to move. I don't see the harm in that when we are honest and upfront.

Do I generally recommend clarity enhanced diamonds for an engagement ring? No. Most I see are not cut nicely although I have seen some rare exceptions. There are times I will recommend clarity enhancement to certain consumers diamonds that have large glaring inclusions.

Bottom line. I am a regular guy. Grew up in Queens NY. You've met me Ken. I'm not a snob that I can't help anyone no matter what background they are from. If we can accomplish our goals and not betray our foundational principals of honesty and integrity I couldn't be paid enough to do whatever. Most important to me is putting my head on the pillow at night with a clear conscience before God and men. If that somehow tarnishes me in your eyes I'm sorry. That's who I am. Hope you can understand where I'm coming from.

All the best,
Jonathan

 

[Rhino]

Jonathan, would you marry us?

LOL ... I don't think I could afford ya'll.

 

[kenny]

Hi Ken,

Do you really think I did it simply for a couple hundred bucks? If I thought it was the wrong thing to do no amount of money can buy me my friend.

Just to give you an insight to my frame of mind when rare instances like this happen...

I see a diamond with glaring eye visible inclusions that is cut beautifully but lacks transparency because of the inclusions ...

My first thought isn't ... "Who am I going to offend if I make it eye clean?"

My thought is "What can I do to make this more beautiful and desireable to the eyes."

I didn't raise the price on the diamond when we did that so you can't claim I did it for money. Instead we invested more capital to make it transparent and look like it should. I make less but help it to move. I don't see the harm in that when we are honest and upfront.

Do I generally recommend clarity enhanced diamonds for an engagement ring? No. Most I see are not cut nicely although I have seen some rare exceptions. There are times I will recommend clarity enhancement to certain consumers diamonds that have large glaring inclusions.

Bottom line. I am a regular guy. Grew up in Queens NY. You've met me Ken. I'm not a snob that I can't help anyone no matter what background they are from. If we can accomplish our goals and not betray our foundational principals of honesty and integrity I couldn't be paid enough to do whatever. Most important to me is putting my head on the pillow at night with a clear conscience before God and men. If that somehow tarnishes me in your eyes I'm sorry. That's who I am. Hope you can understand where I'm coming from.

All the best,
Jonathan

Jonathan nothing personal. Gosh!
I'm only presenting the range possible thoughts of some of your potential customers for future AV sales.

Actually, I see my post as being the nicest one in this thread, not mean, in that it is actually supporting your long term success.
What ever you earned on that $1500 CE stone can be lost by one single future lost AV sale because some people think differently and are not convinced by anyone's arguments regarding CE diamonds.
That's all.

Please don't shoot a messenger.
Hugs, my friend.

 

[Imdanny]

Excellent bang for the buck for stones that won't get a lot of banging about ...

Re: "...that won't get a lot of banging about..."

I clicked on one of the links to the right to read more about clarity enhanced diamonds, and I found this:

"3) What is your opinion about clarity enhanced diamonds?
(A) For a diamond to be fracture filled (clarity enhanced) it must first have a fracture that reaches the surface of the diamond to allow the filling substance to enter the fracture. To the eye, in most cases, the fracture becomes less obvious or disappears altogether. One of the big problems is if you ever have to have the ring worked on, like fix a broken prong, the jeweler will probably hit the prong with a blow torch which will heat up your diamond and the filling will bubble out. This will make your fracture reappear and somebody will be very upset. Most jewelers are not gemologist so you cannot expect them to know they are about to heat up a fracture filled diamond. Also depending of the size of the fracture, the diamond may be easier to break along that fracture."

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/your-opinion-about-clarity-enhanced-diamond-confused.5018/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/your-opinion-about-clarity-enhanced-diamond-confused.5018/[/URL]

dimonbob, 4th post.

I don't know if any and/or all of the above information is correct, but I would be concerned about the banging about, as you said.

 

[Rhino]

Hi Ken,

Do you really think I did it simply for a couple hundred bucks? If I thought it was the wrong thing to do no amount of money can buy me my friend.

Just to give you an insight to my frame of mind when rare instances like this happen...

I see a diamond with glaring eye visible inclusions that is cut beautifully but lacks transparency because of the inclusions ...

My first thought isn't ... "Who am I going to offend if I make it eye clean?"

My thought is "What can I do to make this more beautiful and desireable to the eyes."

I didn't raise the price on the diamond when we did that so you can't claim I did it for money. Instead we invested more capital to make it transparent and look like it should. I make less but help it to move. I don't see the harm in that when we are honest and upfront.

Do I generally recommend clarity enhanced diamonds for an engagement ring? No. Most I see are not cut nicely although I have seen some rare exceptions. There are times I will recommend clarity enhancement to certain consumers diamonds that have large glaring inclusions.

Bottom line. I am a regular guy. Grew up in Queens NY. You've met me Ken. I'm not a snob that I can't help anyone no matter what background they are from. If we can accomplish our goals and not betray our foundational principals of honesty and integrity I couldn't be paid enough to do whatever. Most important to me is putting my head on the pillow at night with a clear conscience before God and men. If that somehow tarnishes me in your eyes I'm sorry. That's who I am. Hope you can understand where I'm coming from.

All the best,
Jonathan

Jonathan nothing personal. Gosh!
I'm only presenting the range possible thoughts of some of your potential customers for future AV sales.

Actually, I see my post as being the nicest one in this thread, not mean, in that it is actually supporting your long term success.
What ever you earned on that $1500 CE stone can be lost by one single future lost AV sale because some people think differently and are not convinced by anyone's arguments regarding CE diamonds.
That's all.

Please don't shoot a messenger.
Hugs, my friend.

Hugs back at ya my friend. You are correct and really I do appreciate your insight. Sorry if I took it too personal. Trust me when I tell you it's not a common thing. Hope thins finds you well.

 

[Rhino]

Excellent bang for the buck for stones that won't get a lot of banging about ...

Re: "...that won't get a lot of banging about..."

I clicked on one of the links to the right to read more about clarity enhanced diamonds, and I found this:

"3) What is your opinion about clarity enhanced diamonds?
(A) For a diamond to be fracture filled (clarity enhanced) it must first have a fracture that reaches the surface of the diamond to allow the filling substance to enter the fracture. To the eye, in most cases, the fracture becomes less obvious or disappears altogether. One of the big problems is if you ever have to have the ring worked on, like fix a broken prong, the jeweler will probably hit the prong with a blow torch which will heat up your diamond and the filling will bubble out. This will make your fracture reappear and somebody will be very upset. Most jewelers are not gemologist so you cannot expect them to know they are about to heat up a fracture filled diamond. Also depending of the size of the fracture, the diamond may be easier to break along that fracture."

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/your-opinion-about-clarity-enhanced-diamond-confused.5018/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/your-opinion-about-clarity-enhanced-diamond-confused.5018/[/URL]

dimonbob, 4th post.

I don't know if any and/or all of the above information is correct, but I would be concerned about the banging about, as you said.

Hi Danny,

Yes true. Exposure to fire will do just that. It's important for a person to let their jeweler know beforehand.

 

[kenny]

FWIW I honestly considered buying it.
I LOVE the AV line and I hope there will be one in my future.

 

[TC1987]

The mistake I'm referring to is picking that particular rough to make into an AVC.

What I mean is, it would cheapen it for me if they routinely used very included, inferior, rough that required clarity enhancement of the final product to make it eyclean. ...

I don't understand that argument, nor the one that it diminished the brand. The August Vintage line of rounds and cushions has always offered some not-totally-eye-clean I1 and SI2 stones, so what is the difference if they offer a CE option or not. August Vintage was cut for cut and performance, not for clarity. CE diamonds for earrings or pendant would be just dandy for me, if they are priced right. The idea of ideal cut CE diamonds is very intriguing. Most CEs are barkers to start with, but I think there's potentially a huge market for peak performing CE diamonds.

 

[heather2012]

How can you tarnish Good Old Golds brand? Nobody can cut a diamond like GOG OR give you customer service like they do. My family and friends have been going to their store long before they became well known on the internet---back in busy bee days

My parent's trust them as jewelers moreso than their own friend who owns a jewelry store literally right up the road (of course they would never tell him that)...but I think that says quite a bit.

GOG is like the Apple of computers and highly doubt that by selling 1-3 CE diamonds a year will make ANY difference whatsoever in the name of their brand...

At the end of the day you can't really compare Tiffany's to GOG anyway--Tiffany's really does mark up their product for nothing other than the brand name, with GOG you are actually getting a BETTER PRODUCT which is why you are paying more! If you are upset that someone can now buy the same cut as you could for much less, what difference does it make if you didn't want a clarity enhanced diamond to begin with?

You are not comparing apples to apples.

 

[Imdanny]

What was that? It certainly wasn't well reasoned or even polite.

I guess this is what you get when you don't say "nice" things.

 

[winternight]

I will never understand the need to bash Tiffanys for it's markup
but not Cartier or other brands. But this is why I avoid posting my diamond
purchases from Tiffanys on here.

Anyways, I may have to make a trip in person some day to see
these GOG cuts in person like the Octavia. I'm up in NYC a couple of times a year

 

[yssie]

Goodness. is about right - Heather, I think you need to *read* my and Danny's posts and understand what we're saying before jumping down our throats, our point (I think we're saying the same thing) is not to compare GOG's and Tiffany's goods or services, it's to point out the various effects of various choices and directions on the cache of a brand. We aren't saying GOG isn't a great vendor, or discounting the beauty of AV stones, or implying that the two August Vintage lines aren't worthy of appreciation - precisely the opposite in fact!




Jon, I gotta say your reply to Gypsy is positively dripping with condescension. It's not flattering.
Some thoughts to your responses in bold -


By answering Gypsy's post it will answer most questions.

I don't think it cheapens the brand, as a one off. As in, they made a mistake and weren't able to move this piece and decided the solution was to have this one CE. I wouldn't appreciate it and do think it would cheapen the brand if they did it routinely.

I'm sure someone will snatch it up for a pendant, though for the price I'd rather have an unenhanced 'real' antique OEC BY FAR rather than an enhanced AVC.

I am not sure I'd call this a mistake. A business has various and all kinds of clients. I see no reason why a business shouldn't cater to all of them if they can.


It is already gone.

The mistake I'm referring to is picking that particular rough to make into an AVC.

What I mean is, it would cheapen it for me if they routinely used very included, inferior, rough that required clarity enhancement of the final product to make it eyclean.

I'm sorry if I didn't make myself more clear but in my post I stated that we frequently purchase estate diamonds from the public which we will then recut. This is the case with that particular diamond. When we purchase rough to cut to AVC/AVR my aim is really for no lower than VS2 however its almost impossible to not pick up a business of rough, when it becomes available and not avoid getting SI's. In the clip posted previsouly of the 1.7xct that is something that did happen on the cutters wheel. An unfortunate event that caused the diamond to be an Imperfect with a large feather right under the table. It was unmarketable with that large feather (as was the .8xct) and clarity enhancing the diamond only made sense. Today someone is enjoying an eye clean 1.7xct AVC they purchased at an "I" price. Due to the nature of how we go about producing the August Vintage line these are exceptions to the rule.
[/quote]

This was not clear to me either from your previous post, but now I understand how you wound up with a precision cut I2. Intent does matter - making the best of an accident is a very different (and from a Branding perspective very much more forgivable) circumstance from *choosing* to cut and market an I2, and planning to do so again and often...

As for a business catering to all. To me, if you upcharge heavily for a brand name the way GOG does with the AVCs-- there is an implication of exclusivity and of quality. And CE diamonds are inferior to natural ones-- which is why they cost so much less. They are enhanced. They are not top quality.

Gypsy, do you understand why ideal cut diamonds are cut in the first place? AVC's aside, as I perform a national query for round diamonds, GIA Ex's (not even counting VG, G, F, P) 1ct H SI1 I pull up hundreds of options with prices ranging from $5700 to over 8k. And this within the Excellent grade alone. We are talking over a 30% difference in value. Can you even begin to fathom what seperates the least expensive to the most valuable among these GIA Ex's? Would you equally claim the most valuable are heavily upcharging? If so, you are sorely mistaken. Gypsy, please understand that the goal of my service, our business model as GOG is to answer those questions for the public. To show and demonstrate why one GIA Ex does indeed cost over 30% for sound gemological reasons.

When I began cutting the AV line I knew we would lose roughly 20% of the weight from the rough when we were going to cut these. I could very easily do what 99% of other cutting facilities are doing and cut for weight. That is not the path I have chosen. One facility looks at a piece of rough and says I can get a 1ct out of this. I look at the same piece of rough and say I want a diamond that will shine like no other even if it weighs 15-22% less.

Gypsy's point that diamonds enhanced by filling (I deliberately exclude permanent treatments like drilling and bleaching) are inferior technically and by repute to unenhanced diamonds is indisputable.

It would be polite not to assume that we consumers are idiots. We do in fact understand some of the reasons diamonds that are similar on paper may prove to be quite different IRL, and we also understand that those real-world difference translate into ranges in pricing - and that there are other things to consider like extra info the vendor may provide on the stone, vendor type, location, policies... As consumers we aren't privy to all the details, but if there are important considerations we're missing, well, there are rather more diplomatic ways to point that out.

As to the question of branding - if "exclusivity" and "implication of quality" is not one of your business concerns, why do you bother with branding in the first place? You Brand because you want your customer to be assured that they have purchased a quality stone with an excellent reputation and pedigree. A CE stone, whether it's a one off or a regular offering, does not live up to that reputation of quality.

What that does to the brand - if anything - is a different question, one that depends on intent, and whether that intent is shared with the consumers, which I addressed earlier.

You can't have it both ways. Either you can justify your branding upcharge with exclusivity and quality assurances-- in which case you are responsible for monitoring your brand to ensure that you maintain that quality and exclusivity-- OR you can NOT upcharge for brand and try to reach a broader customer base by lowering your costs using inferior (like the CE) materials. But to do both doesn't work. And you will loose customers if you upcharge for brand while at the same time using inferior quality materials. Just the reality of the market place. It it was a good idea to do this you can BET that Hearts on Fire or De Beers would have done it before now. It's not, and it cheapens your brand.

You're not getting it Gypsy. As stated ... CE AVC/AVR is an exception to the rule and you need to try to understand why within the GIA EX grade alone there is over a 30% difference in value. I have devoted my life and my business to understanding why. It's why we do what we do. If you'd like some videos I've produced on these very subjects demonstrating why I can begin to help you to understand what makes these seperations.


As far as I know GOG's precision-cut AVCs and AVRs are the *only* such lines. DBL's branded cushions are cut for colour retention, which requires a different design... Which also means that we have no basis for comparison re. pricing. That does not mean that I think the pricing of AV stones is unfair, or anything else - it just means that from my perspective it is what it is and if I want one I've got to pony up for it.

Jon, I hope you know that I have no ill-will toward you or GOG. I don't normally post like this either, but your post really rubbed me the wrong way - it made me uncomfortable, and I'm disappointed with some of the implications therein, but I know that Gypsy and I both agree that by opening the windows and letting the fresh air in GOG is doing the industry a service. I have no objection to a branded stone commanding a premium simply because it's branded - I fully intend to buy an Octavia one day, Brand premium and all - but a Brand's image can be a fickle thing, and at the very least you now have confirmation that many PSers would not welcome CE stones as deliberate, regular AV offerings!

 

[nkarma]

As one of many AVC owners, it does not cheapen the line at all to me. They are so beautiful, I am not sure what would cheapen them!

 

[kindred]

It seems like a few people understood what I was getting at (Gypsy, Kenny and Yssie), while others almost seem to have taken offense at what I wrote. I'm surprised, because every previous thread I've seen about clarity enhanced diamonds was full of replies saying that they are not worth buying. Don't get me wrong, I love Good Old Gold, I own a diamond from them, and I know that they can do whatever they want with their brand. I was just very surprised to see them choosing to sell a clarity enhanced diamond at all, let alone one of their special branded A.V. ones.

To me, it's not an issue of whether people would want to buy a C.E. August Vintage diamond. It's a question of whether the non C.E. ones will suffer as a result. I know that from now on, whenever I hear about an A.V., I will wonder "Is it one of the C.E. ones?", whereas in the past I would have never questioned it.

 

[heather2012]

but did you buy the diamond for yourself to enjoy because you loved the diamond or did you buy it for a symbol of status? Most people on the street wouldn't know what a good old gold diamond was whereas they would know what a Tiffany diamond was...do you see the difference?

 

[kindred]

but did you buy the diamond for yourself to enjoy because you loved the diamond or did you buy it for a symbol of status? Most people on the street wouldn't know what a good old gold diamond was whereas they would know what a Tiffany diamond was...do you see the difference?

If you're addressing me, I'm not sure why you brought up Tiffany, since I never compared the two. We bought my diamond from GOG because it's a beautiful diamond, but we also knew that we were paying extra for an excellent trade-in policy and for the documentation they provide, and I'd say that some part of it was because of the quality we associated with the Good Old Gold name. We were looking for quality more than "bragging rights", as I'm sure nobody I know has any idea who GOG are, and I wouldn't be mentioning the store it came from anyway. I don't see Whiteflash or Brian Gavin diamonds selling clarity enhanced diamonds, though they don't have the same name recognition as Tiffany, either. They still have reputations as dealers in high quality diamonds, though.

 

[Rhino]

Hi Yssie,

Thanks for your thoughtful response. My response right beneath yours.

Goodness. is about right - Heather, I think you need to *read* my and Danny's posts and understand what we're saying before jumping down our throats, our point (I think we're saying the same thing) is not to compare GOG's and Tiffany's goods or services, it's to point out the various effects of various choices and directions on the cache of a brand. We aren't saying GOG isn't a great vendor, or discounting the beauty of AV stones, or implying that the two August Vintage lines aren't worthy of appreciation - precisely the opposite in fact!




Jon, I gotta say your reply to Gypsy is positively dripping with condescension. It's not flattering.
Some thoughts to your responses in bold -

I realize that. It is because of her accusations against me which I take personally Yssie. I'll point it out below.

By answering Gypsy's post it will answer most questions.

I don't think it cheapens the brand, as a one off. As in, they made a mistake and weren't able to move this piece and decided the solution was to have this one CE. I wouldn't appreciate it and do think it would cheapen the brand if they did it routinely.

I'm sure someone will snatch it up for a pendant, though for the price I'd rather have an unenhanced 'real' antique OEC BY FAR rather than an enhanced AVC.

I am not sure I'd call this a mistake. A business has various and all kinds of clients. I see no reason why a business shouldn't cater to all of them if they can.


It is already gone.

The mistake I'm referring to is picking that particular rough to make into an AVC.

What I mean is, it would cheapen it for me if they routinely used very included, inferior, rough that required clarity enhancement of the final product to make it eyclean.

I'm sorry if I didn't make myself more clear but in my post I stated that we frequently purchase estate diamonds from the public which we will then recut. This is the case with that particular diamond. When we purchase rough to cut to AVC/AVR my aim is really for no lower than VS2 however its almost impossible to not pick up a business of rough, when it becomes available and not avoid getting SI's. In the clip posted previsouly of the 1.7xct that is something that did happen on the cutters wheel. An unfortunate event that caused the diamond to be an Imperfect with a large feather right under the table. It was unmarketable with that large feather (as was the .8xct) and clarity enhancing the diamond only made sense. Today someone is enjoying an eye clean 1.7xct AVC they purchased at an "I" price. Due to the nature of how we go about producing the August Vintage line these are exceptions to the rule.

This was not clear to me either from your previous post, but now I understand how you wound up with a precision cut I2. Intent does matter - making the best of an accident is a very different (and from a Branding perspective very much more forgivable) circumstance from *choosing* to cut and market an I2, and planning to do so again and often...
[/quote]

Once again my apologies for not making this more clear in my first post.

As for a business catering to all. To me, if you upcharge heavily for a brand name the way GOG does with the AVCs-- there is an implication of exclusivity and of quality. And CE diamonds are inferior to natural ones-- which is why they cost so much less. They are enhanced. They are not top quality.

Gypsy, do you understand why ideal cut diamonds are cut in the first place? AVC's aside, as I perform a national query for round diamonds, GIA Ex's (not even counting VG, G, F, P) 1ct H SI1 I pull up hundreds of options with prices ranging from $5700 to over 8k. And this within the Excellent grade alone. We are talking over a 30% difference in value. Can you even begin to fathom what seperates the least expensive to the most valuable among these GIA Ex's? Would you equally claim the most valuable are heavily upcharging? If so, you are sorely mistaken. Gypsy, please understand that the goal of my service, our business model as GOG is to answer those questions for the public. To show and demonstrate why one GIA Ex does indeed cost over 30% for sound gemological reasons.

When I began cutting the AV line I knew we would lose roughly 20% of the weight from the rough when we were going to cut these. I could very easily do what 99% of other cutting facilities are doing and cut for weight. That is not the path I have chosen. One facility looks at a piece of rough and says I can get a 1ct out of this. I look at the same piece of rough and say I want a diamond that will shine like no other even if it weighs 15-22% less.

Gypsy's point that diamonds enhanced by filling (I deliberately exclude permanent treatments like drilling and bleaching) are inferior technically and by repute to unenhanced diamonds is indisputable.

No arguement however they are generally not valued differently. An I2 is an I2 no matter which way you slice it CE or not. What I take offense is being accused of "heavily upcharging" the consumer for the AV line. Just because I take a piece of rough and end up with a .85ct instead of a 1ct does not mean I am "heavily upcharging" for the .85ct when the piece of rough cost the same. To be accused of that on a public forum paints me as someone who is out to purposely take advantage of people which I do not do nor appreciate.

It would be polite not to assume that we consumers are idiots. We do in fact understand some of the reasons diamonds that are similar on paper may prove to be quite different IRL, and we also understand that those real-world difference translate into ranges in pricing - and that there are other things to consider like extra info the vendor may provide on the stone, vendor type, location, policies... As consumers we aren't privy to all the details, but if there are important considerations we're missing, well, there are rather more diplomatic ways to point that out.

I don't assume for one moment that you and some of the folks here are Yssie. I greatly respect your opinion and input. I just don't appreciate blanket statements regarding lines of diamonds when there is no understanding why they cost what they do.

As to the question of branding - if "exclusivity" and "implication of quality" is not one of your business concerns, why do you bother with branding in the first place? You Brand because you want your customer to be assured that they have purchased a quality stone with an excellent reputation and pedigree. A CE stone, whether it's a one off or a regular offering, does not live up to that reputation of quality.

What that does to the brand - if anything - is a different question, one that depends on intent, and whether that intent is shared with the consumers, which I addressed earlier.
[/b]

Absolutely and of which I am 110% up front about.

You can't have it both ways. Either you can justify your branding upcharge with exclusivity and quality assurances-- in which case you are responsible for monitoring your brand to ensure that you maintain that quality and exclusivity-- OR you can NOT upcharge for brand and try to reach a broader customer base by lowering your costs using inferior (like the CE) materials. But to do both doesn't work. And you will loose customers if you upcharge for brand while at the same time using inferior quality materials. Just the reality of the market place. It it was a good idea to do this you can BET that Hearts on Fire or De Beers would have done it before now. It's not, and it cheapens your brand.

You're not getting it Gypsy. As stated ... CE AVC/AVR is an exception to the rule and you need to try to understand why within the GIA EX grade alone there is over a 30% difference in value. I have devoted my life and my business to understanding why. It's why we do what we do. If you'd like some videos I've produced on these very subjects demonstrating why I can begin to help you to understand what makes these seperations.


As far as I know GOG's precision-cut AVCs and AVRs are the *only* such lines. DBL's branded cushions are cut for colour retention, which requires a different design... Which also means that we have no basis for comparison re. pricing. That does not mean that I think the pricing of AV stones is unfair, or anything else - it just means that from my perspective it is what it is and if I want one I've got to pony up for it.

Jon, I hope you know that I have no ill-will toward you or GOG. I don't normally post like this either, but your post really rubbed me the wrong way - it made me uncomfortable, and I'm disappointed with some of the implications therein, but I know that Gypsy and I both agree that by opening the windows and letting the fresh air in GOG is doing the industry a service. I have no objection to a branded stone commanding a premium simply because it's branded - I fully intend to buy an Octavia one day, Brand premium and all - but a Brand's image can be a fickle thing, and at the very least you now have confirmation that many PSers would not welcome CE stones as deliberate, regular AV offerings!

[/quote]

They will not be a regular offering. The exceptions to the rule for GOG would always be this ...

a. A recut stone whose feather is just too noticeable.
b. A mistake happened on the wheel.
c. A diamond cut from rough that was an SI2 or even I1 and the inclusion, visible to the eye prevents it from being sold.

Rarely do these things happen as I have my buyers look out for particular rough for this product but in the end I am all for making things more pleasing to the eyes of our clients. Also, my apologies for rubbing you the wrong way my friend. It was the "heavily upcharging" accusation that ruffled my feathers. I *wish* I could get what the big names did for simply putting their name on it.

Lastly ... I've never expressed it before but I really really do appreciate your posts and input on the forum. You are an excellent contributor and often the voice of reason. I thank you for taking the time to answer my response.

Warm regards,
Jonathan

 

[Rhino]

FWIW I honestly considered buying it.
I LOVE the AV line and I hope there will be one in my future.

I'd be honored my friend. HOWEVER ... there is a certain newbie arriving here I think you're going to go bonkers over once you see it.

 

[zephyr]

It seems like a few people understood what I was getting at (Gypsy, Kenny and Yssie), while others almost seem to have taken offense at what I wrote. I'm surprised, because every previous thread I've seen about clarity enhanced diamonds was full of replies saying that they are not worth buying. Don't get me wrong, I love Good Old Gold, I own a diamond from them, and I know that they can do whatever they want with their brand. I was just very surprised to see them choosing to sell a clarity enhanced diamond at all, let alone one of their special branded A.V. ones.

To me, it's not an issue of whether people would want to buy a C.E. August Vintage diamond. It's a question of whether the non C.E. ones will suffer as a result. I know that from now on, whenever I hear about an A.V., I will wonder "Is it one of the C.E. ones?", whereas in the past I would have never questioned it.

I don't understand why you'd wonder. They stated clearly that it is CE. It is not like they hoodwinked you or anyone else.

 

[Lula]

FWIW I honestly considered buying it.
I LOVE the AV line and I hope there will be one in my future.

I'd be honored my friend. HOWEVER ... there is a certain newbie arriving here I think you're going to go bonkers over once you see it.

Oh, here's hoping that the newbie is a new line of emerald-cuts with high crowns and small tables

 

[Rhino]

It seems like a few people understood what I was getting at (Gypsy, Kenny and Yssie), while others almost seem to have taken offense at what I wrote. I'm surprised, because every previous thread I've seen about clarity enhanced diamonds was full of replies saying that they are not worth buying. Don't get me wrong, I love Good Old Gold, I own a diamond from them, and I know that they can do whatever they want with their brand. I was just very surprised to see them choosing to sell a clarity enhanced diamond at all, let alone one of their special branded A.V. ones.

To me, it's not an issue of whether people would want to buy a C.E. August Vintage diamond. It's a question of whether the non C.E. ones will suffer as a result. I know that from now on, whenever I hear about an A.V., I will wonder "Is it one of the C.E. ones?", whereas in the past I would have never questioned it.

Hi kindred,

Thanks for your input. I dont' think anyone's attitude has changed towards CE diamonds. My attitude towards them have always been the same which we have published on our site on this subject. In those rare instances when we are faced with a diamond that has eye visible inclusions and those inclusions prevent it from being sold I can do one of 2 things.

1. Let it sit and collect dust.
2. Make the inclusion invisible and see someone enjoy it at no extra cost to them.

I sincerely don't see the harm in the latter as long as there is full open disclosure.

I am open minded to hearing why people would suggest the former though.

What TC1987 said though hits the nail on the head.

I don't understand that argument, nor the one that it diminished the brand. The August Vintage line of rounds and cushions has always offered some not-totally-eye-clean I1 and SI2 stones, so what is the difference if they offer a CE option or not. August Vintage was cut for cut and performance, not for clarity. CE diamonds for earrings or pendant would be just dandy for me, if they are priced right. The idea of ideal cut CE diamonds is very intriguing. Most CEs are barkers to start with, but I think there's potentially a huge market for peak performing CE diamonds.

The mistake I'm referring to is picking that particular rough to make into an AVC.

What I mean is, it would cheapen it for me if they routinely used very included, inferior, rough that required clarity enhancement of the final product to make it eyclean. ...

I don't understand that argument, nor the one that it diminished the brand. The August Vintage line of rounds and cushions has always offered some not-totally-eye-clean I1 and SI2 stones, so what is the difference if they offer a CE option or not. August Vintage was cut for cut and performance, not for clarity. CE diamonds for earrings or pendant would be just dandy for me, if they are priced right. The idea of ideal cut CE diamonds is very intriguing. Most CEs are barkers to start with, but I think there's potentially a huge market for peak performing CE diamonds.

Diverting from the subject of clarity for a moment, yet related, I truly had no intentions of cutting anything lower than I or J colors either. Why did I start to carry an entire inventory of K, L, M, N, O and lower colors? I had formerly held the same opinion of these colors as I did with "I" clarities. "Inferior goods" is what would go through my mind. It is the fine people of this forum who enlightened me otherwise. My wife in fact wears an "N" now! The AV line, ultimately as TC pointed out is cut for cut.

Even though I try to avoid diamonds with eye visible inclusions at all costs, ultimately its common sense and consumer demand that will drive our decisions. I just want you guys to know I get it and am totally on board with this NOT being a regular thing.

Kindest regards,
Jonathan

PS: My lab assistant just posted the "after" shot of the ASET of this particular diamond. Take a look at that difference too. The inclusions themselves were angled in such a direction that they were drawing in light off the horizon (seen in the green in our ASET photography) which was also completely eliminated after the enhancement. Interesting.

 

[kindred]

It seems like a few people understood what I was getting at (Gypsy, Kenny and Yssie), while others almost seem to have taken offense at what I wrote. I'm surprised, because every previous thread I've seen about clarity enhanced diamonds was full of replies saying that they are not worth buying. Don't get me wrong, I love Good Old Gold, I own a diamond from them, and I know that they can do whatever they want with their brand. I was just very surprised to see them choosing to sell a clarity enhanced diamond at all, let alone one of their special branded A.V. ones.

To me, it's not an issue of whether people would want to buy a C.E. August Vintage diamond. It's a question of whether the non C.E. ones will suffer as a result. I know that from now on, whenever I hear about an A.V., I will wonder "Is it one of the C.E. ones?", whereas in the past I would have never questioned it.

I don't understand why you'd wonder. They stated clearly that it is CE. It is not like they hoodwinked you or anyone else.

Oh, for heaven's sake! I'm talking about what would run through my mind (and possibly others') when someone mentions an A.V. diamond (unless of course the link to the listing is given, in which case it would be disclosed). Is it really that hard to understand?

 

[kindred]

Diverting from the subject of clarity for a moment, yet related, I truly had no intentions of cutting anything lower than I or J colors either. Why did I start to carry an entire inventory of K, L, M, N, O and lower colors? I had formerly held the same opinion of these colors as I did with "I" clarities. "Inferior goods" is what would go through my mind. It is the fine people of this forum who enlightened me otherwise. My wife in fact wears an "N" now! The AV line, ultimately as TC pointed out is cut for cut.

Even though I try to avoid diamonds with eye visible inclusions at all costs, ultimately its common sense and consumer demand that will drive our decisions. I just want you guys to know I get it and am totally on board with this NOT being a regular thing.

Kindest regards,
Jonathan

PS: My lab assistant just posted the "after" shot of the ASET of this particular diamond. Take a look at that difference too. The inclusions themselves were angled in such a direction that they were drawing in light off the horizon (seen in the green in our ASET photography) which was also completely eliminated after the enhancement. Interesting.

I absolutely get your point about people being open to lower color and clarity grades, but I guess I see clarity enhancement as being in its own category. I have to admit that the ASET image from after the enhancement is quite impressive, though!

And I would like to say that I think it's great that you are so responsive on this forum!

 

[distracts]

The difference to me on GOG selling a clarity-enhanced diamond and most other stores selling one is presentation - it says right there on the page in bold letters that it's clarity-enhanced, it's still graded I2, and they have before and after pictures. The customer is under no illusions about what they are buying, which many people with CE diamonds from B&M stores seem to be (for one thing, most CE diamonds . I have never seen a before and after picture of a CE diamond someone is trying to sell before, and I am impressed that GOG decided to provide that information. If they just put it out there as a CE diamond without that, I would have felt it cheapened the brand. As it is, the way they did it, I thought it strengthened their position as a seller who also spends a lot of time educating consumers. As it is with all treatments: Disclosure, disclosure, disclosure!

 

[marygrace]

Every diamond deserves to be beautiful and loved. This one was perfectly cut. No one wanted it because of its inclusions. After CE, it was swiped off the shelf to be cherished.

I genuinely feel sorry for the dead-looking diamonds I see at Macy's, much in the same way I feel sorry for unsold stuffed animals that never find homes. This diamond got a second chance!

GOG was upfront about the CE and didn't raise the price. The reputation is maintained. GOG isn't a chain like Tiffany's, so the business model is different. A few exceptions can be made, and someone like me, without access to endless wealth, can afford a beautiful cushion cut.

Additionally, I never heard of GOG or AVC until I came to PS to learn my ABCs. So the brand, really, can not be ruined as long as honesty is maintained.