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Your opinion about clarity enhanced diamond [:confused:]

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guslik

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Sep 27, 2002
Messages
115
Hi everyone!
I just need your opinion about clarity enhanced diamond.
Diamond is EGL certified .
3.12 Carat
Color I
Clarity SI3
Ideal Cut ( Tolkowsky)
This diamond was clarity enhanced by sealer substance (Yehuda treatment).
Seller told me that SI3 grading was given before this stone was clarity enhanced and now this stone looks better than SI3.
My questions are as follows:
1) Is it true about grading clarity enhanced stones?(clarity grading given before or after the stone enhanced?)
2) Does Tolkowsky Ideal cut mean anything when it comes to clarity enhanced stones?
3) What is you opinion about clarity enhanced diamonds?
Thank you !!!!!!!
 

Architect

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 11, 2002
Messages
35
Guslik,

Clarity-enhanced diamonds are a tough subject to debate. One thing that has been going around about them is that they can be pretty good diamonds, but it depends on the technique used for the enhancing. There have been strings posted here that suggest clarity-enhanced diamonds can have some problems if they are nto properly filled or with the right compound.

Another thing to consider is that you are getting a diamond that has been graded by EGL as an SI3. SI3 is a grade that is not recognized by any other grading lab besides EGL. It was believed that they created this grade to make diamonds sound better on paper and so increasing their value, rather than calling the diamond out for what it really should be graded, an I1. Since the diamond you are considering is over 3 carats, it would be fairly easy to see inclusions in it, even though it was "enhanced" to the grade of an SI2. I would suggest looking for other diamonds that might meet your standards and comparing them to the enhanced diamond and I am sure you will see a difference. Whenever possible, go for natural diamonds rather than ones that have been enhanced...but that is just my opinion.
 

Giangi

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 23, 2003
Messages
2,530
I'm sorry, but seller is wrong... EGL grades clarity on filled diamonds AFTER the enhancement...
Second: 'Tolkowsky Ideal Cut' means that your diamond has a nice make that EGL calls in this fancy way
. This term is a bit inadequate, as Marcel Tolkowsky diamond had 53% table, 16.2% crown with 34.5' angle, 43.1% pavilion with 40.75' angle and no girdle. EGL calls Tolkpswky ideal any diamond with very good symmetry and 53-58 table, 14-16 crown, 42-44 pavilion and thin to sl.thick girdle(average). This range it's a bit wide, but a diamond with these prortions SHOULD be fairly well cut... Can you post proportions?
Third, I'm not too fond of clarity enhanced diamonds, but since yours has been filled by Yehuda, which is the most recognised company, you should be pretty safe. They will restore the enhancement anytime at no charge!
Definitely get the EGL cert checked by an appraiser...

Hope that helps

Giangi
 

dimonbob

Brilliant_Rock
Trade
Joined
Dec 12, 2000
Messages
670
Hello Guslik;

In my opinion...To answer your questions out of order:

2) Does Tolkowsky Ideal cut mean anything when it comes to clarity enhanced stones?
(A) The cut has nothing to do with the clarity of a diamond. But an EGL Tolkowsky Ideal cut will probably not make the grade with an AGS Ideal cut which, in my opinion is the best.

3) What is your opinion about clarity enhanced diamonds?
(A) For a diamond to be fracture filled (clarity enhanced) it must first have a fracture that reaches the surface of the diamond to allow the filling substance to enter the fracture. To the eye, in most cases, the fracture becomes less obvious or disappears altogether. One of the big problems is if you ever have to have the ring worked on, like fix a broken prong, the jeweler will probably hit the prong with a blow torch which will heat up your diamond and the filling will bubble out. This will make your fracture reappear and somebody will be very upset. Most jewelers are not gemologist so you cannot expect them to know they are about to heat up a fracture filled diamond. Also depending of the size of the fracture, the diamond may be easier to break along that fracture.

1) Is it true about grading clarity enhanced stones?(clarity grading given before or after the stone enhanced?)
(A) Some diamonds are graded by EGL before, some after. Although it should not make a lot of difference. A good diamond grader can easily see the fracture filling under the microscope with the correct lighting...Not an issue.

If I didn't have much money and wanted a larger diamond with flaws that I couldn't see, I guess I might consider a clarity enhanced diamond.

Good Luck.
 

Giangi

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 23, 2003
Messages
2,530
Very well said Bob!!!!!!
 

pyramid

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 10, 2002
Messages
4,607
To quote Diamondbob 'Most jewelers are not gemologist so you cannot expect them to know they are about to heat up a fracture filled diamond.'

I sent an email asking a jeweller if they had a graduate gemologist in their store I could contact. They replied that they had two retail gemologists I could contact. What is the difference here, are they or are they not qualified gemologists?
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
I agree with Architect's note on the 3c SI2/SI3 stone having eye visible inclusions. When you are talking a stone this large, it doesn't matter if you have SI2 or SI3 grading, both will STILL have eye visible inclusions. Even an SI1 stone of this size may still have eye-visible inclusions.

Chances are this stone was an I1 or similar and some of the more glaring inclusions may have been filled, but unless this is a clarity enhanced to a very clean SI1 or a VS2 to be entirely safe...you are still going to see spots in the stone.

Just keep that in mind. If you have seen the stone in person and it looks very clean then don't worry. But I would definitely get the stone re-checked by your own independent appraiser who can confirm or disagree with the jeweler's findings.

Good luck!!
 

AmPm

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 6, 2003
Messages
47
Hi Guslik,
Bob has pretty much summed it. Clarity enhancment can be quite a subjective topic, personal I'm not to keen on the idea (much rather a non treated diamond). However Yehuda has had many many years experience and a well enhanced diamond can look quite good. Check out where the inclusion(s) are situated in the stone. If your choice is a enhanced diamond and further down the track work is required ensure you tell the jeweler concerned that it is a filled diamond.
Is the size of utmost importance?, have you considered downsizing the diamond and going for a non treated one?
Good Luck with your decision!
 

dimonbob

Brilliant_Rock
Trade
Joined
Dec 12, 2000
Messages
670
To answer Pyramid;

I have never heard of a retail gemologist, but I don't know everything. There are many organizations in the jewelry industry and some of them give titles for different education. I have heard of a Registered Jeweler, American Gem Society. Any title with gemologist attached to it should be a person with either a Graduate Gemologist, GIA or FGA or FGAA. There are a few more from other countries but I think you were talking about an American jewelery store. If I have stepped on anyones toes...sorry.
dimonbob
 

guslik

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Sep 27, 2002
Messages
115
hi everyone!
thanks for all your help.
But now I really don't know what to do.
The seller 100% guarantee this stone to be free of any eye visible inclusions and he offered me this stone for $4900.
Previously,I already bought 2 diamonds from this seller and he always sold me stones as promised.
the price seems to be good, so I'm really lost now , should I go for it or not ?

Is clarity enhanced means bad??
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
That is SUPER CHEAP. I would be wary of a deal that seems too good to be true. In my opinion, there may be a few things wrong with this situation. Since it has an EGL cert, it could be an overseas cert which means that the I color could really be J or K. The clarity enhanced issue is tricky too. Could be eye-clean, could not, his eye-clean may not be your eye-clean. It's all relative to the person viewing. $4900 for a 3c stone is ridiculously low, and I know they give discounts for clarity-enhanced but not by THAT much! Or do they? Chances are also that this stone is NOT an ideal make as I don't think even clarity enhanced stones 'ideal' make stones go for so low.

I ran a quick Pscope search and found a 3.11 I SI3 stone that was not clarity enhanced and it was $11000. A far cry from $4900! Why would your jeweler sell this stone so low?

Only you can determine what you want to do in this situation...it is your decision and will be your stone!

If you have dealt with this jeweler in the past and been happy, then you may want to do so again...but I would still get the stone checked out by an 'independent' appraiser (meaning they dont work for a jeweler and can give an independent opinion) to see what they think. You may find out that the stone is better than you thought, or not.

This jeweler may also be relying on you not getting it checked out since you have done biz with him in the past. This may not be true...but better safe than sorry! Esp on a stone with so many 'variables'.

Make sure you have a return policy on the stone and get it checked out if you buy it. All this speculation means nothing, these are all just our opinions. An appraiser can view the stone and give you much more educated reporting.

Good luck!
 

trichrome

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 9, 2002
Messages
397
I wonder if this stone was not HPHT treated as well as fracture-filled.
Might explain the price.

Trichrome.
 

AmPm

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 6, 2003
Messages
47
Hi Pyramid & Diamonbob,
I haven't heard the term retail gemologist used before either, do you think they may be referring to a graduate of gemology who also works in retail ? just a thought!
 

AmPm

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 6, 2003
Messages
47
Hi Pyramid & Diamonbob,
I haven't heard the term retail gemologist used before either, do you think they may be referring to a graduate of gemology who also works in retail ? just a thought!
 

AmPm

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 6, 2003
Messages
47
Sorry double posted!
 

guslik

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Sep 27, 2002
Messages
115
----------------
On 2/25/2003 8:34:43 PM trichrome wrote:

I wonder if this stone was not HPHT treated as well as fracture-filled.
Might explain the price.

Trichrome.
----------------
Hi!
what is HPHT?
 

Richard Sherwood

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
4,924
-----------
1) Is it true about grading clarity enhanced stones?
(clarity grading given before or after the stone
enhanced?)
-----------

If the terms "SI3" and "clarity enhanced" are on the report, it means that the SI3 grade was assigned for the appearance post-treatment.

-----------
The seller 100% guarantee this stone to be free of
any eye visible inclusions and he offered me this
stone for $4900.
-----------

Often times "SI3" clarity enhanced diamonds were I2's before treatment, with large "knife edge" surface reaching fractures that transverse a large part of the stone but practically disappear upon treatment. There's definitely a durability factor to enter into the equation with these kind of stones.

That said, the $4900 price is an excellent price, even if it's truly an I2 and a JK color (often the case with over-graded EGL-Israel stones).

If the stone looks great (not just good) upon visual inspection, and the clarity enhanced aspect doesn't bother you, I'd snap it up (after getting a second opinion from an independent gemologist appraiser, of course).
 

pyramid

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 10, 2002
Messages
4,607
Regarding the title Retail Gemologist. I am in the United Kingdom. The shop I am referring to is a local jeweller who works with his wife, son, daughter and son-in-law. I don't know what education they have but I think it is just their words they are using. I believe the owner is a qualified jeweller and the other retail gemologist is either the daughter or son-in-law. I don't know for sure though.



Guslik

This is just my opinion but I would not buy clarity enhanced. I think of it as a stone with holes in it and they have filled it with a diamond looking substance. Ofcourse a 3 carat size would cost mega dollars even in an SI1 clarity so if it is the size you want and you cannot/do not want to spend more money on it, I would take Richard Sherwood's advice and get it checked by an independant gemologist appraiser. I would be frightened of the durability issue but the appraiser would be able to guide you here. I would go with whatever he said. It would be worth the money you would pay him if it saves you buying a stone for $4000 which is going to come apart after say 6 months or 1 years wear.

It is really your decision, personally I definitely would not buy this stone, but then I never want a diamond over 1.5 carats in size.
 

trichrome

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 9, 2002
Messages
397
HPHT referred to a treatment used to increase the color of your stone.
It is difficult to detect. Also, many stones which are clarity-enhanced
are also HPHT treated but how would you know?

Trichrome.
 

guslik

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Sep 27, 2002
Messages
115
Thank you all for your help.
I decided not to buy this stone, I'm searching now for around 2 carat stone SI2 clarity and I in color , NOT CLARITY ENHANCED.

Wish me luck!
 

Rank Amateur

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Messages
1,553
I suppose there will always be a market for CE stones, but it may eventually end up like the market for broken Lladro that is held together with superglue. SOMEONE will buy it, but what's a repaired Lladro worth? 5% of a perfect piece?

My opinion: you're on the right track by staying away from CE diamonds. Good Luck!
 

rickyrockranger

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 30, 2005
Messages
21
I''m personally not a fan of clarity enhanced stones. I''ve seen too many get heat from a jeweler''s touch and turn brown. Of course you can just send it back for a re-enhancement, but that''s just too weird for me.

Also - GIA won''t even touch a fracture filled stone (that''s the real term for this type of clarity enhancement). Why? Because, unlike laser drilling - it''s just not considered permanent by GIA.

As for HTHP - that is an acronym for High Temperature High Pressure. It can be done with certain Type I or Type II stones (I forgot which) - and it is permanent and can turn a J/K/L/M or worse into a D/E/F.
 
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