Blue Lab Grown Diamonds- boron?

[elle_chris]

There seems to be no real standard in Oz anymore - we used 9ct and 18ct, then 375 and 750 (which just confused people) and today most stamps are 9K and 18K.
No reason that KT would be a problem and G is maybe the stamp of the manufacturer???
Heft the ring - if it feels too light - worry

Thank you!
As far as the weight goes, I honestly can't tell.
I sent an email asking them what it stood for.

 

[MelloYello8]

Exactly - whomever holds the secret to "as grown" fancy color blues is whom holds all the cards.

I suspect there are people out there who know. I found another interesting bit from the Chatham blog and learned unfortunately that they no longer produce blue diamonds.
https://blog.chatham.com/education/our-history/



another article… old but describes chemical properties of different types of blue diamonds…

https://www.gemresearch.ch/assets/documents/contributions-to-gemology/2014-journal-14.pdf

 

[Rockdiamond]

I suspect there are people out there who know. I found another interesting bit from the Chatham blog and learned unfortunately that they no longer produce blue diamonds.

1) a totally appreciate the Chatham Blog!
2) IN no way am I meaning to impugn Chatham

BUT
There are really more questions this raises than providing answers.

The journal article: Really interesting!
It used the term "Boron Doping"
I could not find any mention of irradiation- I'll need to take a more thorough look
It is almost 8 years old....and the technology is really moving fast

 

[kb1gra]

I'm bumping this back up because I saw a stone today that was, as they say, curious and curiouser - a fabulous radiant, just over 4ct, and it wasn't faint blue, this was very distinctly blue. It was listed as type II, obviously there is boron present, but the price was about $4k less than a comparable stone that was white. I would still think that a stone that was obviously blue such as this one would carry the fancy color premiums? It was very bizarre.

I'm still thinking about buying it, but I wonder how the market overall will treat these stones. I wouldn't intend to sell, but, you know, how many rings can one girl have?

 

[Rockdiamond]

It was listed as type II, obviously there is boron present,

Sounds kewl!!!
But the assumption that Boron is present is incorrect.
From the sound of the color ( "distinct" blue") it sounds like Irradiation.
Then the price. Again, this would indicate a grower going for colorless- missing the mark ( likely brownish tinge) so they nuke it.
But it again points out how little information we have - especially compared to how much info on Natural Earth Mined diamonds exists.

 

[kb1gra]

Sounds kewl!!!
But the assumption that Boron is present is incorrect.
From the sound of the color ( "distinct" blue") it sounds like Irradiation.
Then the price. Again, this would indicate a grower going for colorless- missing the mark ( likely brownish tinge) so they nuke it.
But it again points out how little information we have - especially compared to how much info on Natural Earth Mined diamonds exists.

This photo might help explain the color. It didn't speak to me as irradiated and the certificate doesn't indicate any, just HPHT Type II. The color grade was H.

 

[elle_chris]

This photo might help explain the color. It didn't speak to me as irradiated and the certificate doesn't indicate any, just HPHT Type II. The color grade was H.

Blue nuance.
I don't think older IGI certs mention it but it seems very common with HPHT stones.

 

[kb1gra]

Blue nuance.
I don't think older IGI certs mention it but it seems very common with HPHT stones.

I've seen blue nuance, but this is quite strong - much like the original post, it's not a subtle blue but instead more fancy light blue.

 

[elle_chris]

I've seen blue nuance, but this is quite strong - much like the original post, it's not a subtle blue but instead more fancy light blue.

Interesting. Wondering why they didn't give it a fancy blue grade instead of H.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hard to tell from a pic....but I agree with the "Blue Nuance" assessment.
Based on that pic- and ...it does not look it might not even get "Faint Blue" by GIA standards.
A true Fancy Light Blue is a lot more saturated.

 

[kb1gra]

In person this was clearly blue, but it may also be due to the size of the stone, which was 8x10mm. I find it interesting that they don’t disclose blue nuance as if not having it on the cert would somehow prevent someone from noticing a stone that is clearly blue.

 

[aisa901]

In person this was clearly blue, but it may also be due to the size of the stone, which was 8x10mm. I find it interesting that they don’t disclose blue nuance as if not having it on the cert would somehow prevent someone from noticing a stone that is clearly blue.

I think different cuts, shapes, and size will show blue differently for sure, just like yellow body color in natural stones.

The short answer, greed.

Right now, on JA, I'm looking at a certain subset of 62 ovals, there is one obvious blue nuanced stone (not disclosed on cert) and a few other probable ones, none of the blue stones are trading at a discount.

The long answer, still greed, but IRL, depending on the degree of blue nuance, I think they are counting on people not realizing it and/or not being knowledgeable enough to detect it etc.

I have an undisclosed blue nuanced stone from @jamesallenrings (bought it just before discovering PS). I did notice a bit of blue in the pictures and asked CS at JA... of course they weren't much help and rehearsed the info from the cert to me. I didn't notice the blue nuance for a couple months, not until it was set with natural mined diamonds and I could see the contrast in color. It was way past due for a refund at this point. If it was set as a solitaire, I'm sure it would have been even longer until I noticed it. Luckily, a blue nuanced stone is something I can live with, but they really should be disclosing it for those who can't!

On JA, my stone looked almost as blue as the one you posted, but IRL it's only occasionally detectable depending on the lighting, and very faint at that.

 

[Rockdiamond]

In person this was clearly blue,

Cool! It’s informative to get a first hand impression!!
I think we should point out that “Blue Nuance” does not look like a natural faint blue diamond looks.
I think it’s “cool”…. But it’s not in any way a substitute for a “real” blue diamond. Also important to point out that the diligence we’ve always exercised with Gem Labs and natural diamonds is missing with LGDs. And I include myself in this….. although I am starting to see that even with LGDs GIA is just better

 

[DejaWiz]

although I am starting to see that even with LGDs GIA is just better

I don't know about that...maybe with their consistent strictness of color, but not much else.
GIA seems to be loose with grading LGD's on two aspects:
1. I have yet to see a GIA graded HPHT Type IIb LGD that is specifically notated as being a Type IIb (or at least mentioning blue nuance).
2. Many CVD are notated with "whether this man-made diamond has been treated is currently undeterminable."

 

[Rockdiamond]

First off....I think I need to send you a check for all the research you're doing on our behalf Deja
I'm learning a lot.....

1. I have yet to see a GIA graded HPHT Type IIb LGD that is specifically notated as being a Type IIb (or at least mentioning blue nuance).

Have you seen a stone that looked "Blue Nuance" that GIA missed, or neglected to note?

2. Many CVD are notated with "whether this man-made diamond has been treated is currently undeterminable."

Interesting....and quite possibly related in a general sense...
Is it that there is no way to tell, or GIA doesn't have the means to do so?

About GIA, from my perspective:
A lower color LGD can be very nice.....but not always.
I've seen a lot of G-K graded IGI stones with an undesirable grey tinge.
We've sold some really nice looking ( IMO) I-J color stones- some with IGI, others with GIA.
IN general: cutters going for LG GIA reports seem to have better goods.
But this is a totally non scientific assessment based on my limited personal experience. And I am definitely prejudiced based on relationships.

AND- I know that GIA is totally overwhelmed and crazy busy.
Just one cutter I know mentioned they'd gotten a six-figure bill from GIA... and it covered one month's submissions! Something's gotta give....

 

[aisa901]

I don't know about that...maybe with their consistent strictness of color, but not much else.
GIA seems to be loose with grading LGD's on two aspects:
1. I have yet to see a GIA graded HPHT Type IIb LGD that is specifically notated as being a Type IIb (or at least mentioning blue nuance).
2. Many CVD are notated with "whether this man-made diamond has been treated is currently undeterminable."

Agreed @DejaWiz, @Ada Diamonds CEO calls out both GIA and IGI in their IG stories for poor grading. And IGI has probably graded many more LG diamonds than GIA at this point, so I'm not sure that any data we have at this point would be a fair comparison anyway.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

First off....I think I need to send you a check for all the research you're doing on our behalf Deja
I'm learning a lot.....



Have you seen a stone that looked "Blue Nuance" that GIA missed, or neglected to note?



Interesting....and quite possibly related in a general sense...
Is it that there is no way to tell, or GIA doesn't have the means to do so?

About GIA, from my perspective:
A lower color LGD can be very nice.....but not always.
I've seen a lot of G-K graded IGI stones with an undesirable grey tinge.
We've sold some really nice looking ( IMO) I-J color stones- some with IGI, others with GIA.
IN general: cutters going for LG GIA reports seem to have better goods.
But this is a totally non scientific assessment based on my limited personal experience. And I am definitely prejudiced based on relationships.

AND- I know that GIA is totally overwhelmed and crazy busy.
Just one cutter I know mentioned they'd gotten a six-figure bill from GIA... and it covered one month's submissions! Something's gotta give....

A note re GIA delays in India - first we heard they had a broken printer, then they had run out of their special paper.
Second - I believe a Type IIb (man made or natural) an ordinary mulit meter will show a small current ( or some resistance) with an ordinary multi meter.

 

[aisa901]

Accidentally just came across this video,... lighting is awful and overall video quality is not great, BUT fun to see someone talking about their IGI HPHT faint blue stone, color K!!!

She shows the cert at 1:00 minutes, and reveals the diamond at 1:45.

 

[elle_chris]

The video on my screen is very yellow so I can't make out any color other than yellow.
But in general, Blue tint is not natural looking (to me). I absolutely hate the ones I've seen with it.
I think they need to be discounted and I hope lab diamond dealers don't start pretending it's a good thing and start up charging.

eta:
Here's a stone with Blue nuance. The IGI cert actually mentioned it.

 

[aisa901]

I think they need to be discounted and I hope lab diamond dealers don't start pretending it's a good thing and start up charging.

Agree!

It's rare to see a K blue nuanced stone though, maybe that's why they disclosed it on the cert, because the K doesn't disguise the blue as well as the more colorless stones?

 

[elle_chris]

Agree!

It's rare to see a K blue nuanced stone though, maybe that's why they disclosed it on the cert, because the K doesn't disguise the blue as well as the more colorless stones?

Don't know...
But the pic I attached isn't a K. It was either colorless, or a G or H.. I just can't remember which.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

K in Blue is actually graded by GIA as a Fancy colored diamond.
Faint Blue, so if this was a natural diamond it would probably be worth 2-3 times as much as a D colored diamond and several times more than a yellowish or brownish K.

 

[aisa901]

The video on my screen is very yellow so I can't make out any color other than yellow.
But in general, Blue tint is not natural looking (to me). I absolutely hate the ones I've seen with it.
I think they need to be discounted and I hope lab diamond dealers don't start pretending it's a good thing and start up charging.

eta:
Here's a stone with Blue nuance. The IGI cert actually mentioned it.

Oh wow, yes, that is very obviously blue!!! (I didn't see the picture before when I commented)

 

[elle_chris]

K in Blue is actually graded by GIA as a Fancy colored diamond.
Faint Blue, so if this was a natural diamond it would probably be worth 2-3 times as much as a D colored diamond and several times more than a yellowish or brownish K.

uh.. so is it a K or a fancy? Because if it's graded as a fancy color, it's not a K.. right? Literally scratching my head right now.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

K equivalent in rare natural colors is the least colored diamond GIA designate as Fancy with a capital F.
There colors include Pink, Orange, Purple, Green and Blue. But not yellow and brown.
They are graded face up, not bottom up.

 

[elle_chris]

Oh.. how interesting, I had no idea.
Still, I hope lab diamond vendors don't piggy back off of this in some way and claim blue nuance is an added value.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Oh.. how interesting, I had no idea.
Still, I hope lab diamond vendors don't piggy back off of this in some way and claim blue nuance is an added value.

De Beers Lightbox have seen to that at $800 per carat!

 

[aisa901]

Thought I'd share pictures of my blue stone as an example of the variance out there. Oval is set with natural mined E/F (apparently) side stones which I think help provide some context in assessing the blue nuance.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Thought I'd share pictures of my blue stone as an example of the variance out there. Oval is set with natural mined E/F (apparently) side stones which I think help provide some context in assessing the blue nuance.

Thanks 901 - hard to make a judgement, but as F do you think the color grade was asigned because of pale blue?

The direct sunlight shows blue but probably from the sky. The best color photos are done in shade when wearing neutral colored clothes and a white phone cover.
Or cloudy day.
Sunlight photos are fun but not of any value for cut or color assessment.

 

[aisa901]

Thanks 901 - hard to make a judgement, but as F do you think the color grade was asigned because of pale blue?

Hrmm... do you mean because it appears to be higher or lower than an F color? The photo from JA seems to indicate blue nuance, and the jeweller chose to set it with E/F side stones, so I'm assuming the F was a fair grade given the choice of the setter/jeweller to match near colorless stones with it.

The direct sunlight shows blue but probably from the sky. The best color photos are done in shade when wearing neutral colored clothes and a white phone cover.
Or cloudy day.

Not sure if you were able to see all the photo's, I posted several all in different lighting situations, the one with grass in the background was an exceptionally cloudy day, and I was wearing a light neutral sweater, phone cover was not white, but the photo was taken at a bit of a distance.

Sunlight photos are fun but not of any value for cut or color assessment.

Thank you, not looking for cut assessment at this point, don't want to dwell on anything I can't change, happy to be living the *ignorance is bliss* life