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Blue Lab Grown Diamonds- boron?

MelloYello8

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Thanks for the reference @MelloYello8 !
But ( you knew there was a but coming, right?)
I see nothing specific about blue diamonds that can illuminate the discussion.
In this first reference, they speak of "adding born to the catalyst"
color2.JPG
Yet, there's no specificity. And current events seem to show that boron is not "controllable"
Then this next section specifies how post growth treatments are used- including blue and green.
color.JPG

It's quite possible I missed something...anyone else find relevant info?

I think I originally replied to this thread to point out that light blue created diamonds existed just from my anecdotal experience as an occasional but long time consumer of man-made diamonds. I’ve never worked in the jewelry or gem trade nor do I have any expertise in the chemical structure of a diamond, natural or synthetic. I’m just curious myself in how I may procure diamonds in shades I actually like these days. I have one lightbox blue diamond, and while the piece of jewelry is a fun design, I don’t love the blue diamond itself.

What are the questions you have regarding boron in these diamonds? Whether the exact shade can be controlled to intentionally create a light blue rock? And whether it’s done today?
The pamphlet makes reference to the blue color being produced during growth, and displays a Chatham diamond as an example

1634237577137.png
There is a vendor claiming that this can be controlled but I don’t know how authoritative they are on the subject as sellers.
1634237812310.png
 

elle_chris

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I think I originally replied to this thread to point out that light blue created diamonds existed just from my anecdotal experience as an occasional but long time consumer of man-made diamonds. I’ve never worked in the jewelry or gem trade nor do I have any expertise in the chemical structure of a diamond, natural or synthetic. I’m just curious myself in how I may procure diamonds in shades I actually like these days. I have one lightbox blue diamond, and while the piece of jewelry is a fun design, I don’t love the blue diamond itself.

What are the questions you have regarding boron in these diamonds? Whether the exact shade can be controlled to intentionally create a light blue rock? And whether it’s done today?
The pamphlet makes reference to the blue color being produced during growth, and displays a Chatham diamond as an example

1634237577137.png
There is a vendor claiming that this can be controlled but I don’t know how authoritative they are on the subject as sellers.
1634237812310.png

I'm wondering too?

Initially, I thought @Rockdiamond believe all HPHT Blues underwent a post growth treatment to get their color.

But it's been shown through various links and even GIA that HPHT Blues are in fact, grown Blue.

So now I'm wondering if I completely misread everything?
 

Rockdiamond

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What are the questions you have regarding boron in these diamonds?

I missed page 25- thanks for pointing it out.
Still...I have questions:
I'm holding an HPHT lab grown diamond, faint blue, which the grower himself told me was caused by unintended Boron in the chamber. The stone does not react to UV lamps. This directly contradicts page 25 of the EGL guide.

The stone costs about 25% less than similar, colorless Lab Grown Diamonds. I mention the cost aspect to illustrate why I believe it's not possible to control boron in the chamber. If they'd wanted to make them blue, they'd have charged more.....or at least the same price as the D-F HPHT stones.

In terms of the EGL guide- there's so much good information there.
Yet on this specific subject...contradictory info. On page 15, which I posted, they talk about how irradiation is used to create the blue color. That, in addition to statements I can disprove with actual diamonds about Fluoresecne in HPHT blue lab grown diamonds.
Then, let's look at the actual market....we are not seeing stones between the faint blue, and much deeper blue.
This could easily be due to us just not having seen them.....maybe they are out there.

I'm not claiming to have answers.....just questions:)
 

Rockdiamond

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Initially, I thought @Rockdiamond believe all HPHT Blues underwent a post growth treatment to get their color.

I can't dispute that- but I'm learning a lot in this process.....


There is a vendor claiming that this can be controlled

General statement- not regarding ANY specific vendor......so much of what I see passed off as "information" is actually advertisement.....
Any discussion of "controlled boron" is suspect, based on physical evidence I've personally seen.
If they could control it, we'd see the results.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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I found an old EGL pamphlet online (as early as 2004) that seems to pre-date the commercial availability of white lab diamonds and discusses the growth and characteristics of other color diamonds that were available from different companies including Chatham at the time. http://www.jackhand.com/pdf/EGLbookletLOW.pdf

I think I read somewhere on this forum that since then, the cost to produce the diamonds using these older technologies plus low consumer interest made them no longer worth making. I don’t think current blue diamonds on the market are as-grown. The earlier ones look more blue and I seem to see an electric or teal tint on all the blues I see from lightbox and posted on DBL.

That article was written by Branko and Sharrie. Branko is a good friend and is the leading educator in this area in the world. David you have his email address - so ask him directly. Branko provided the brains in a recent pink diamond that he authenticated as Argyle for us.
I did a little seminar at AGs with Sharrie maybe 20 years ago. Both are leading scientists.
EGL USA was a way better lab back then.
Branko also has published his latest edition of his synthetic diamond hand book. And some of his webinars are free.
this will lead you to his channel:
 

oncrutchesrightnow

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I’m just reading along for the sociological and cultural aspects of the discussion —

The stone costs about 25% less than similar, colorless Lab Grown Diamonds. I mention the cost aspect to illustrate why I believe it's not possible to control boron in the chamber. If they'd wanted to make them blue, they'd have charged more.....or at least the same price as the D-F HPHT stones.

‘What do people think about the idea that consumers might not like light blue in LGD because blue nuance is seen as an indicator, visible to the untrained naked eye, that a diamond may be lab grown? Furthermore, consumers might not mind the light blue in Lightbox-type fashion jewelry because that type of jewelry is not typically considered for engagement rings or other major purchases. But consumers still would not want light blue color in major LGD purchases if consumers perceived that blue nuance was a LGD “giveaway” and consumers cared about that giveaway. That dynamic might explain the price reduction in light blue rough not intended for Lightbox or similar jewelry.

General statement- not regarding ANY specific vendor......so much of what I see passed off as "information" is actually advertisement.....

‘Yes. There is zero transparency. I wonder if any vendor will share the percent of their sales attributed to LGD any time soon. Have a hunch that some vendors are doing quite well getting ahead of the game on LGD. Can’t begrudge them that, from a consumer point of view.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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I’m just reading along for the sociological and cultural aspects of the discussion —



‘What do people think about the idea that consumers might not like light blue in LGD because blue nuance is seen as an indicator, visible to the untrained naked eye, that a diamond may be lab grown? Furthermore, consumers might not mind the light blue in Lightbox-type fashion jewelry because that type of jewelry is not typically considered for engagement rings or other major purchases. But consumers still would not want light blue color in major LGD purchases if consumers perceived that blue nuance was a LGD “giveaway” and consumers cared about that giveaway. That dynamic might explain the price reduction in light blue rough not intended for Lightbox or similar jewelry.



‘Yes. There is zero transparency. I wonder if any vendor will share the percent of their sales attributed to LGD any time soon. Have a hunch that some vendors are doing quite well getting ahead of the game on LGD. Can’t begrudge them that, from a consumer point of view.
I think you have an assumption Crutches, that people buy LGD's as fakes that they are passing off as real. Like what people did (and do) with CZ's?

I think there are other category's as well:
1. tech heads who love the idea
2. sparkle lovers who dont care what others think - they just get hypnotised by sparkles on the ceiling of their car
3. Sustainability folk (totally misguided in my view)

and the list may go on
 

Rockdiamond

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I’m just reading along for the sociological and cultural aspects of the discussion

I find these aspects beyond fascinating.
I'm a dyed-in-the-wool diamond person.
When salespeople try to "get over" on me with BS sales tactics, I've heard it all before........I eat them for breakfast.
Before Diamonds by Lauren, I was an on the road diamond and jewelry salesman.
Speaking as someone who made their living selling diamonds wholesale, I'll admit it...being a diamond buyer is like having died and gone to heaven:)
My goal is to totally strip away ego, and BS, and make transactions a straight up deal.
I have extended this business attitude directly onto the Lab Grown Diamond business. There's a lot of commonalities- and a lot of differences.

When my buddy, the guy who grew the Faint Blue stones showed them to me, I was straight up with him..."Wait, they're blue, and you're charging less?"
Yes- and the more expensive colorless stones sold better than the blue tinged stones at the Las Vegas trade show.
I'm a seat of the pants guy- this, to me, is solid evidence that the blue is not easily controlled. And less easily accepted by "regualr" LG buyers.

es. There is zero transparency. I wonder if any vendor will share the percent of their sales attributed to LGD any time soon. Have a hunch that some vendors are doing quite well getting ahead of the game on LGD. Can’t begrudge them that, from a consumer point of view.

This is one reason I really love this forum.
Still, so many people that call or write have never seen PS and come with some widely held misconceptions.

IN terms of sales numbers...I doubt that companies large or small would want to get specific about what they sell, and other associated business stats.
If they become a public company, I'll bet we can find such numbers out.


I think there are other category's as well:

You're missing a huge category- value seekers.
I defy anyone to be able to tell a Natural from a Lab Grown diamond, when it's properly set, on someone's ear.
If I've never recounted this discussion...
I told Sandra that if she wants a larger colorless diamond, we should get a Lab Grown.
Sleeping on the couch isn't my thing, so I had to quickly retreat:)
Seriously- in spite of the fact that in terms of appearance, hand picked LG are indistinguishable from Natural- my wife would rather have a Natural diamond.
2ct tw E/VS1 Hand Picked triple EX $14k+-
Same in LG...probly about $5k today.
I feel like I'd be irresponsible not mentioning this option to every potential buyer.
We've found many people like the idea of LG- and others who don't want to sleep on the couch:)
 

oncrutchesrightnow

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I think you have an assumption Crutches, that people buy LGD's as fakes that they are passing off as real. Like what people did (and do) with CZ's?

I think there are other category's as well:
1. tech heads who love the idea
2. sparkle lovers who dont care what others think - they just get hypnotised by sparkles on the ceiling of their car
3. Sustainability folk (totally misguided in my view)

and the list may go on

Agree that there are lots of reasons that people buy LGDs. Still, there are probably a few people who buy LGDs but don’t want others to know that the diamond is lab grown.

I find these aspects beyond fascinating.
I'm a dyed-in-the-wool diamond person.
When salespeople try to "get over" on me with BS sales tactics, I've heard it all before........I eat them for breakfast.
Before Diamonds by Lauren, I was an on the road diamond and jewelry salesman.
Speaking as someone who made their living selling diamonds wholesale, I'll admit it...being a diamond buyer is like having died and gone to heaven:)
My goal is to totally strip away ego, and BS, and make transactions a straight up deal.
I have extended this business attitude directly onto the Lab Grown Diamond business. There's a lot of commonalities- and a lot of differences.

When my buddy, the guy who grew the Faint Blue stones showed them to me, I was straight up with him..."Wait, they're blue, and you're charging less?"
Yes- and the more expensive colorless stones sold better than the blue tinged stones at the Las Vegas trade show.
I'm a seat of the pants guy- this, to me, is solid evidence that the blue is not easily controlled. And less easily accepted by "regualr" LG buyers.



This is one reason I really love this forum.
Still, so many people that call or write have never seen PS and come with some widely held misconceptions.

IN terms of sales numbers...I doubt that companies large or small would want to get specific about what they sell, and other associated business stats.
If they become a public company, I'll bet we can find such numbers out.




You're missing a huge category- value seekers.
I defy anyone to be able to tell a Natural from a Lab Grown diamond, when it's properly set, on someone's ear.
If I've never recounted this discussion...
I told Sandra that if she wants a larger colorless diamond, we should get a Lab Grown.
Sleeping on the couch isn't my thing, so I had to quickly retreat:)
Seriously- in spite of the fact that in terms of appearance, hand picked LG are indistinguishable from Natural- my wife would rather have a Natural diamond.
2ct tw E/VS1 Hand Picked triple EX $14k+-
Same in LG...probly about $5k today.
I feel like I'd be irresponsible not mentioning this option to every potential buyer.
We've found many people like the idea of LG- and others who don't want to sleep on the couch:)

It is possible to be honest and really persuasive at the same time. The best kind of salespeople. They are so likable that consumers want to give them even more money. Not gonna hate.

Seems like many young people are perfectly content to have a LGD engagement ring if it means they get a bigger stone. The world is Instagrammed and 2 carats is the new 1. Just going by the observable change in marketing strategy, I don’t know if industry folks were expecting so many people to buy LGD as engagement jewelry.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Seems like many young people are perfectly content to have a LGD engagement ring if it means they get a bigger stone.
A good friend of mine has about 30 stores equivalent to Zales. They sell a lot of synthetic gems and CZ. Some of those young shoppers graduate to low grade diamonds and real gems, they become collectors, and if/when they can afford better goodies they are then serious collectors of natural gems.
I expect the same will happen with a small percentage of LGD purchasers - and yes - the new 1carat diamond will be 2 or 3 carat :)
 

MelloYello8

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I missed page 25- thanks for pointing it out.
Still...I have questions:
I'm holding an HPHT lab grown diamond, faint blue, which the grower himself told me was caused by unintended Boron in the chamber. The stone does not react to UV lamps. This directly contradicts page 25 of the EGL guide.

The stone costs about 25% less than similar, colorless Lab Grown Diamonds. I mention the cost aspect to illustrate why I believe it's not possible to control boron in the chamber. If they'd wanted to make them blue, they'd have charged more.....or at least the same price as the D-F HPHT stones.

In terms of the EGL guide- there's so much good information there.
Yet on this specific subject...contradictory info. On page 15, which I posted, they talk about how irradiation is used to create the blue color. That, in addition to statements I can disprove with actual diamonds about Fluoresecne in HPHT blue lab grown diamonds.
Then, let's look at the actual market....we are not seeing stones between the faint blue, and much deeper blue.
This could easily be due to us just not having seen them.....maybe they are out there.

I'm not claiming to have answers.....just questions:)

I think the blue diamonds from the time of the paper were made because they had not figured out yet how to grow the diamond in a vacuum. If I recall correctly, the advertising on these diamonds at the time claimed that white diamonds were not available because it was too difficult to grow the diamonds in a vacuum. The yellow diamonds were created because of ambient nitrogen. To prevent the diamonds from turning yellow, they pumped in boron but that turned the diamonds blue. It was reported at the time too that there was a lot of research in creating blue diamonds as thin wafers because they were effective semiconductors that would potentially be used in quantum computing. I don’t know that any of this is true but I thought it to be interesting at the time.

I think irradiation to make the blue color has long been available even for natural diamonds. Perhaps that would have been done for yellow diamonds that did not have a nice shade.
 

Rockdiamond

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I think irradiation to make the blue color has long been available even for natural diamonds.
Irradiation of diamonds for color has been around for a very long time..... since at least the '60's.

To me, the entire subject is fascinating and puzzling at the same time.
Boron, apparently, exists in our atmosphere.
The terms "Boron Doping", and "pumped in boron" seem.....questionable, in terms of practicality.
I'm not a boron expert.....is it even possible to "pump some" into a growth chamber?
As the guy who started this thread...I very much appreciate everyone's input.
 

DejaWiz

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I'm not a boron expert.....is it even possible to "pump some" into a growth chamber?

Based on what I've been reading regarding HPHT methodology (for numerous applications, not just diamonds) aluminum diboride seems to be the most common *intentional* doping source, but I'm not certain if that is what is used in modern HPHT diamond growth or if it's the same for CVD boron doping.
 

Rockdiamond

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A possibility exists that what we're searching for is proprietary....
I an entity figured out how to use boron( or whatever), why give out secrets like this?
 

DejaWiz

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A possibility exists that what we're searching for is proprietary....
If an entity figured out how to use boron( or whatever), why give out secrets like this?

Exactly - whomever holds the secret to "as grown" fancy color blues is whom holds all the cards.
 

Rockdiamond

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Exactly - whomever holds the secret to "as grown" fancy color blues is whom holds all the cards.

Here's an interesting point, in the discussion about commonalities and differences between LG, and EM diamonds.....
Are Natural blue diamonds as desirable ( expensive) as they are due to rarity?
If we ( hypothetically) switched blue and yellow in EM diamonds....where blue was super common and yellow was super rare would the prices switch....
Can we extend the pricing structure of Natural Fancy Colored DIamonds to LG FCD's?
WIll there be a premium for "as grown" stones as opposed to those that have been treated for color?
Not that I have any answers...but I do have a lot of questions:)
 

DejaWiz

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Here's an interesting point, in the discussion about commonalities and differences between LG, and EM diamonds.....
Are Natural blue diamonds as desirable ( expensive) as they are due to rarity?
If we ( hypothetically) switched blue and yellow in EM diamonds....where blue was super common and yellow was super rare would the prices switch....
Can we extend the pricing structure of Natural Fancy Colored Diamonds to LG FCD's?
WIll there be a premium for "as grown" stones as opposed to those that have been treated for color?
Not that I have any answers...but I do have a lot of questions:)

I think the consumer base is what makes or breaks the demand and pricing for certain colors, and that changes every so often, as trends come and go.
I'm not ignoring clever marketing playing its part to influence the consumer base; e.g.- "chocolate" brown or "champagne" yellow-brown.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Here's an interesting point, in the discussion about commonalities and differences between LG, and EM diamonds.....
Are Natural blue diamonds as desirable ( expensive) as they are due to rarity?
If we ( hypothetically) switched blue and yellow in EM diamonds....where blue was super common and yellow was super rare would the prices switch....
Can we extend the pricing structure of Natural Fancy Colored DIamonds to LG FCD's?
WIll there be a premium for "as grown" stones as opposed to those that have been treated for color?
Not that I have any answers...but I do have a lot of questions:)

Rarity of Natural diamond colors is not logical.
Blue is perhaps the least saturate least attractive expensive color - orange is way more rare and stunningly beautiful, but because there are so few around, they don't get much airplay.
secondly type II natrual diamonds grow fast and huge - so natural type II blue get a lot of airplay at auctions etc.
Since synthetic diamonds are not rare and getting almost free, rarity in this discussion has diddly squat to do with anything David.
 

oncrutchesrightnow

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Here's an interesting point, in the discussion about commonalities and differences between LG, and EM diamonds.....
Are Natural blue diamonds as desirable ( expensive) as they are due to rarity?
If we ( hypothetically) switched blue and yellow in EM diamonds....where blue was super common and yellow was super rare would the prices switch....
Can we extend the pricing structure of Natural Fancy Colored DIamonds to LG FCD's?
WIll there be a premium for "as grown" stones as opposed to those that have been treated for color?
Not that I have any answers...but I do have a lot of questions:)

Something like 14% of people see color differently than the rest. IIRC there is such a thing as blue-purple colorblindness, which means what looks like an ugly blue to one person may look like a gorgeous violet to another. Which costs more and which is rarer — blue or violet?

What blows my mind is that pink diamonds are basically carbon molecules knocked out of alignment. Literally all they are is a trick of the eye. Like polarized sunglasses and computer screens.

We are paying for perception.
 

elle_chris

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Rarity of Natural diamond colors is not logical.
Blue is perhaps the least saturate least attractive expensive color - orange is way more rare and stunningly beautiful, but because there are so few around, they don't get much airplay.
secondly type II natrual diamonds grow fast and huge - so natural type II blue get a lot of airplay at auctions etc.
Since synthetic diamonds are not rare and getting almost free, rarity in this discussion has diddly squat to do with anything David.

Blue is my favorite color. The medium tone icy blues are gorgeous to me.


@Garry H (Cut Nut) Off topic - I posted a question regarding gold markings in the "Jewelry Pieces" subforum, asking if it's common to stamp 18kt gold in Australia like this: G 18KT
Recently received a diamond band from Australia that's supposed to be 18kt solid gold, but the stamp is making me question if it or isn't.
 

Rockdiamond

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Since synthetic diamonds are not rare and getting almost free, rarity in this discussion has diddly squat to do with anything David.
Almost free??? Sign me up!!
Speaking of rarity…. Earth Mined diamonds are not rare.
I’ll have a much harder time finding a light brown K color than a D…which cost more??
So rarity isn’t what sets the price of natural or lab grown diamonds.
At this point they have that in common.
 

MelloYello8

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I’m not sure this website is still lingering in the interwebs but it’s really interesting to see the cards attached to the stones when you click on “view” for each of them. I think this company is somehow associated with “better than diamonds” and I remember looking through their inventory many years ago.

http://www.takaradiamonds.com/blue_diamonds/blue_diamonds_index.php
 

Rockdiamond

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I’m not sure this website is still lingering in the interwebs but it’s really interesting to see the cards attached to the stones when you click on “view” for each of them. I think this company is somehow associated with “better than diamonds” and I remember looking through their inventory many years ago.

http://www.takaradiamonds.com/blue_diamonds/blue_diamonds_index.php

This kind of proves my point.
1) every stone is Fancy Vivid Blue. This implies a lack of ability to control the color.
2) based on the pics….and the video They look exactly like irradiated blue diamonds. They look nothing like Natural blue diamonds.
I call BS- thanks for posting Mello!!
 

Karl_K

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Reading this thread reminds me that things change very quickly in technology.
One thing could be 100% true one month and obsolete the next.
MMD is a tech field not a traditional diamond trade field where a minor change takes 10 years and a major one decades.
My favorite mmd color has pretty much totally disappeared from the mmd market, the wonderful orange diamonds.
 

Rockdiamond

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Speaking of Orange Diamonds. In natural, pure orange is such an amazing color. And it’s so unbelievably rare as to be practically non existent.
My favorite mmd color has pretty much totally disappeared from the mmd market, the wonderful orange diamonds
Wow, I’ve never seen a pure orange MMD!!
 

Karl_K

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Speaking of Orange Diamonds. In natural, pure orange is such an amazing color. And it’s so unbelievably rare as to be practically non existent.

Wow, I’ve never seen a pure orange MMD!!
Pure orange were rare even in mmd, more common was orange yellow as I recall.
Many of the orange yellow were absolutely stunning.
 

Rockdiamond

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There’s still plenty of orange tinged yellow MMDs. Which is a problem IMO
There’s no comparison betters a pure orange and orange- yellow. Or yellow-orange
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Blue is my favorite color. The medium tone icy blues are gorgeous to me.


@Garry H (Cut Nut) Off topic - I posted a question regarding gold markings in the "Jewelry Pieces" subforum, asking if it's common to stamp 18kt gold in Australia like this: G 18KT
Recently received a diamond band from Australia that's supposed to be 18kt solid gold, but the stamp is making me question if it or isn't.

There seems to be no real standard in Oz anymore - we used 9ct and 18ct, then 375 and 750 (which just confused people) and today most stamps are 9K and 18K.
No reason that KT would be a problem and G is maybe the stamp of the manufacturer???
Heft the ring - if it feels too light - worry
 
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