Are we too elitist & doing 99% of newbies a disservice?

[amoline]

I disagree with a passion. We ARE in the "real" jewelry world, the one where we don't fall victim to mass sheeple advertising, where we understand that the information we are fed and brainwashed to believe is untrue. I am part of real world demographics. This "real" jewelry world is where those who want to learn what happens behind the curtain can come together to learn from not only each other, but from movers and shakers in the industry that generously share some of their time and expertise with us. Your comment STRONGLY reminds me of the ubiquitous brainwashing in the pet food industry....dogs should only eat kibble, kibble is healthy, don't feed dogs "people" food.... Not everyone wants to swallow nonsense in a wholesale fashion, and would prefer to make educated decisions. Educated decisions require time and effort to learn about the subject matter. More importantly, we are not all the same, but we ARE all part of the "real" jewelry world. The fact that you and others don't know that there are other areas in the "real" jewelry world doesn't mean they don't exist, it just means you are ignorant to them.

You are certainly within your right to disagree with a passion; I am not sure why the way you're going about it equates to coming out guns blazing and calling me ignorant (and truth be told, I'm not even sure to what you're referring... I'm not denying there are multiple areas of the jewelry spectrum, nor am I invalidating your part of any jewelry demographic), but each to his or her own.

PriceScope represents a tiny minority compared to the worldwide jewelry owning population. This is not opinion. That is fact. If we here were in any way financially significant or representative of the earth's jewelry population, then we wouldn't have things like James Allen removing certs despite PriceScope practically causing an uprising.

All I'm saying is that those on PriceScope -- of course I, you, any and all other regulars here -- have a shared passion for jewelry -- as you say, those significant players in the industry come and generously share their knowledge. PriceScope is reflective of the top ecehlon, not necessarily in finance alone, though it certainly plays a part, but certainly in passion and interest of the jewelry owning population. You, by mere virtue of being here, are in the top percentage of jewelry owners and knowers.

This is not constrained to jewelry alone. I'm part of a golf consumer forum where most everyone is a decent player, cares about equipment, custom fitting, etc. To say that anyone on that forum is representative of your average driving range hack, play twice a year on holidays guy is absurd. To say that your PriceScope member is in any way indicative of what the vast majority of people think or feel about jewelry is equally silly. I'm not saying it as an insult. But c'mon. We here do not represent the average jewelry consumer.

Those who do not care about jewelry vastly outnumber those who care. And those who care vastly outnumber any of those who are interested in PS-level research and interest expeditions. Those who post here have a passion for it but the average Joe and Jane don't give a flying care about jewelry. People want a gift for their mother or daughter, or a guy goes into a store with as much money as he can muster and wants the BIGGEST diamond he can get for $XYZ dollars. People do not care what happens behind the curtain; PS members do. The majority of people have no interest in research or reading about diamonds. PriceScope members do.

Signet Jewelers posted revenue of 6.55 *billion* dollars in 2015, which was the year I could most easily find. Jared's, Zales, Kay, etc. are where the typical middle-market jewelry consumer lie, and I'm not sure what about that statement of fact has made you in such vehement disagreement, because it was certainly not an insult.

In any case, though, I appreciate you posting your rebuttal thoughts. It is, after all, part of what makes PriceScope a neat place to be, such that we can have great discussion about something we all love dearly.

Edit for typo

 

[distracts]

You are certainly within your right to disagree with a passion; I am not sure why the way you're going about it equates to coming out guns blazing and calling me ignorant (and truth be told, I'm not even sure to what you're referring... I'm not denying there are multiple areas of the jewelry spectrum, nor am I invalidating your part of any jewelry demographic), but each to his or her own.

PriceScope represents a tiny minority compared to the worldwide jewelry owning population. This is not opinion. That is fact. If we here were in any way financially significant or representative of the earth's jewelry population, then we wouldn't have things like James Allen removing certs despite PriceScope practically causing an uprising.

All I'm saying is that those on PriceScope -- of course I, you, any and all other regulars here -- have a shared passion for jewelry -- as you say, those significant players in the industry come and generously share their knowledge. PriceScope is reflective of the top ecehlon, not necessarily in finance alone, though it certainly plays a part, but certainly in passion and interest of the jewelry owning population. You, by mere virtue of being here, are in the top percentage of jewelry owners and knowers.

This is not constrained to jewelry alone. I'm part of a golf consumer forum where most everyone is a decent player, cares about equipment, custom fitting, etc. To say that anyone on that forum is representative of your average driving range hack, play twice a year on holidays guy is absurd. To say that your PriceScope member is in any way indicative of what the vast majority of people think or feel about jewelry is equally silly. I'm not saying it as an insult. But c'mon. We here do not represent the average jewelry consumer.

Those who do not care about jewelry vastly outnumber those who care. And those who care vastly outnumber any of those who are interested in PS-level research and interest expeditions. Those who post here have a passion for it but the average Joe and Jane don't give a flying care about jewelry. People want a gift for their mother or daughter, or a guy goes into a store with as much money as he can muster and wants the BIGGEST diamond he can get for $XYZ dollars. People do not care what happens behind the curtain; PS members do. The majority of people have no interest in research or reading about diamonds. PriceScope members do.

Signet Jewelers posted revenue of 6.55 *billion* dollars in 2015, which was the year I could most easily find. Jared's, Zales, Kay, etc. are where the typical middle-market jewelry consumer lie, and I'm not sure what about that statement of fact has made you in such vehement disagreement, because it was certainly not an insult.

In any case, though, I appreciate you posting your rebuttal thoughts. It is, after all, part of what makes PriceScope a neat place to be, such that we can have great discussion about something we all love dearly.

Edit for typo

There's a pretty big difference between saying we're the top echelon of the market or even a particular non-representative slice of the market, and saying we're not part of the real jewelry world. Of course we are part of the real jewelry world - a small and non-representative part, but that doesn't mean we don't exist. You are getting replies that are aggressive because you used intentionally alienating language.

I agree with you about what the average consumer wants. I personally don't think PS should cater to the average consumer to a certain extent. That's not, in general, what enthusiast forums are for or good at. A return to the forum's heyday would be nice - but turning it into something else entirely isn't what I want.

 

[amoline]

There's a pretty big difference between saying we're the top echelon of the market or even a particular non-representative slice of the market, and saying we're not part of the real jewelry world. Of course we are part of the real jewelry world - a small and non-representative part, but that doesn't mean we don't exist. You are getting replies that are aggressive because you used intentionally alienating language.

I agree with you about what the average consumer wants. I personally don't think PS should cater to the average consumer any more than it already tries to. That's not, in general, what enthusiast forums are for or good at.

Yikes, "intentionally alienating?" - not so much. I'm not sitting here and shouting that the fine pieces owned by members here are suddenly non-existent, not important, or that we as people/posters and our opinions are worthless. Perhaps I simply come from the other side perspective, my mother having been in the trade as a corporate buyer - aside from the relative handful of great vendors recommended here, PriceScope isn't even known and certainly not cared about from the "other" side.

I mean that we so swiftly and quickly look down on the quality that is representative of what consumers buy, and much of the anger is undoubtedly on behalf of consumers and certainly not at them. Trust me, I wish that places like Jared's offered a more reasonable level of quality vs cost (I subscribe to their emails for fun, and just recently they boasted of selling a solid 10K gold chain for $3,000 - which was 25% off!). Sometimes, it's very fun to shop retail as opposed to online. We are warped in our jewelry vision because we have the privilege and the pleasure of working with such world class vendors and are used to top quality and craftsmanship. 4 of my friends have gotten engaged within 3 of the past months, and I begged them to, if not come to PS, at least let me help diamond shop. I'm no true diamond master, but I could certainly assist in doing better than your average store. None of them took me up on the offer -- all went to a mass market jewelry store and basically said "get me the very biggest stone for XYZ dollars in the store."

What I mean when I say that we are not part of the real jewelry world (perhaps I should have written common or usual jewelry world?-- but I can't edit now) is twofold: 1) simply that we as regulars here just don't connect beyond our former upsetting experiences with what the average buyer contributing to Signet's 6.5B revenue is buying or knows about jewelry before visiting PS. and 2) what I said above that to the big boys we are so non-representative that we don't exist. I visited Las Vegas this summer and found an excuse to mention PriceScope in any jewelry store I could just because I was curious (Cartier, Tiffany, Mikimoto, Graff, Harry Winston) and I got dead stares of confusion. My comment is not me intending on going out to insult the PS member base whatsoever, so my mistake in wording if that's how it was interpreted.

Finally, to your second point, does PriceScope even bill itself as an enthusiast forum? I'm not asking rhetorically. I just checked the PS main page and the main banners proclaim things like: "HELPING MILLIONS FIND A GREAT DIAMOND FOR THE BEST PRICE!" and "Get Help from our Knowledgeable Diamond and Jewelry Forum." I'm not saying PS isn't an enthusiast forum, obviously, but perhaps it is this somewhat murkiness of what the forum represents that causes issues of which Garry mentions. The main PriceScope URL looks far more educational to me than your typical enthusiast forum, and if it's educational that we most represent, then I do see a case for at least trying to reach (I'm not sure cater is the right word, nor am I sure reach is what I'm looking for, either) more than we presently are per Garry's stats.

Anyway, it is soon off to bed for me here, but the discussion and debate I say is certainly what makes PriceScope such an enjoyable place to be.

 

[distracts]

4 of my friends have gotten engaged within 3 of the past months, and I begged them to, if not come to PS, at least let me help diamond shop. I'm no true diamond master, but I could certainly assist in doing better than your average store. None of them took me up on the offer -- all went to a mass market jewelry store and basically said "get me the very biggest stone for XYZ dollars in the store."

Finally, to your second point, does PriceScope even bill itself as an enthusiast forum? I'm not asking rhetorically. I just checked the PS main page and the main banners proclaim things like: "HELPING MILLIONS FIND A GREAT DIAMOND FOR THE BEST PRICE!" and "Get Help from our Knowledgeable Diamond and Jewelry Forum." I'm not saying PS isn't an enthusiast forum, obviously, but perhaps it is this somewhat murkiness of what the forum represents that causes issues of which Garry mentions. The main PriceScope URL looks far more educational to me than your typical enthusiast forum, and if it's educational that we most represent, then I do see a case for at least trying to reach (I'm not sure cater is the right word, nor am I sure reach is what I'm looking for, either) more than we presently are per Garry's stats.

I essentially agree with you on your points - but your language in your earlier post certainly did rub me as well the wrong way. I'm not disputing at all that most jewelers have never heard of PS - I know most have never heard of ASETs or Idealscopes or HCA score for rounds or anything of the sort. I have met many who sell colored stones who know nothing about diffusion treatment or other treatments that radically alter the price of something. But I don't think that's an argument to bring PS down to that level. We've seen many diamonds that just flat-out Aren't That Great sold by major brands you mentioned - even several recently of people posting with Tiffany or other branded diamonds asking why they didn't sparkle like their previous diamonds.

I never had a jewelry-buying experience prior to PS (except sterling silver jewelry from individual makers and fashion jewelry) so I REALLY can't connect with the average jewelry-buyer in that respect. I came online to research all I could before spending a large amount of money, read a ton of threads here, and bought a great ring. I also don't think that just because people aren't signing up doesn't mean that the forum isn't useful. There is a HUGE amount of knowledge already on PS and somebody could read for half an hour and go into a store more confident and knowledgeable than they were before, and I don't think it's a failing that they weren't converted to signing up and posting.

PS may not bill itself as an enthusiast forum, but enthusiasts form the core group of members who carry the institutional knowledge, post regularly, and help newbies. Without that, PS would be an archive of past advice and newbies advising each other in a blind-leading-the-blind type of situation.

 

[amoline]

I never had a jewelry-buying experience prior to PS (except sterling silver jewelry from individual makers and fashion jewelry) so I REALLY can't connect with the average jewelry-buyer in that respect. I came online to research all I could before spending a large amount of money, read a ton of threads here, and bought a great ring. I also don't think that just because people aren't signing up doesn't mean that the forum isn't useful. There is a HUGE amount of knowledge already on PS and somebody could read for half an hour and go into a store more confident and knowledgeable than they were before, and I don't think it's a failing that they weren't converted to signing up and posting.

I too have had little jewelry buying experience outside of PriceScope, but I think a big hurdle that we on PS still have difficulty overcoming is getting folks to trust us beyond "well, we're experts telling you stuff on the internet, and here's a bunch of numbers so trust us." Oversimplifying, obviously.

But the fact remains that your average Joe consumer's experience may well feel something like this, I think:

Joe walks into Jared and wants to buy studs for his wife. With the sale going on right now, you can buy a 2ctw total weight pair of studs from Jared for about $5200 without the tax and other stuff. Now, of course, these are labeled as I2 diamonds so probably I3 or even worse - essentially rocks that probably don't deserve to be called diamonds.

OK, Joe thinks, those studs are $5200 but I'll do some looking around anyway. Maybe Joe hops on the internet and comes across PriceScope. If he registers and posts "I'm thinking about studs from Jareds," all of us here will (rightfully) plead and beg to not do it, and check out a place like WF or BG or we'll help Joe find some stones.

If Joe doesn't post maybe he comes to the same conclusion from others and checks out WF anyway or something. Still not being terribly educated about diamonds, he sees that 2 stones to get to 2 ctw from Whiteflash -- despite being worlds different in quality -- will run him $6,000 or so per stone, and suddenly the deal from Jared seems pretty fantastic. After all, they sparkled decently in the store, right? And nobody will REALLY notice, anyway.

But suddenly and very slippery we have a person who is genuinely trying their best to do some due diligence but because money is hard earned the retail store looks like the far better "deal." And actually trusting people over the internet about your hard earned money, even if we are correct and have the facts to back it up, is really difficult because he saw those retail diamonds in ideal lighting and they don't seem that bad - or at least, they certainly don't seem $7000 worse than what WF would be. (Obviously I'm not picking on WF and it would be blasphemous to genuinely compare them to Jared; I just know from witnessing firsthand with threads here and people I've talked to that this is a very common thought process).

I'm not sure how we do better at these things. I'm just thinking out loud, perhaps. So, with knowing that this is how things can take their course, I see merit in Garry's point. Registration doesn't directly indicate good or not good I think, but... Hmm.

It's a conundrum (corundum, heh...)

 

[Karl_K]

I too have had little jewelry buying experience outside of PriceScope, but I think a big hurdle that we on PS still have difficulty overcoming is getting folks to trust us beyond "well, we're experts telling you stuff on the internet, and here's a bunch of numbers so trust us." Oversimplifying, obviously.

But the fact remains that your average Joe consumer's experience may well feel something like this, I think:

Joe walks into Jared and wants to buy studs for his wife. With the sale going on right now, you can buy a 2ctw total weight pair of studs from Jared for about $5200 without the tax and other stuff. Now, of course, these are labeled as I2 diamonds so probably I3 or even worse - essentially rocks that probably don't deserve to be called diamonds.

OK, Joe thinks, those studs are $5200 but I'll do some looking around anyway. Maybe Joe hops on the internet and comes across PriceScope. If he registers and posts "I'm thinking about studs from Jareds," all of us here will (rightfully) plead and beg to not do it, and check out a place like WF or BG or we'll help Joe find some stones.

If Joe doesn't post maybe he comes to the same conclusion from others and checks out WF anyway or something. Still not being terribly educated about diamonds, he sees that 2 stones to get to 2 ctw from Whiteflash -- despite being worlds different in quality -- will run him $6,000 or so per stone, and suddenly the deal from Jared seems pretty fantastic. After all, they sparkled decently in the store, right? And nobody will REALLY notice, anyway.

But suddenly and very slippery we have a person who is genuinely trying their best to do some due diligence but because money is hard earned the retail store looks like the far better "deal." And actually trusting people over the internet about your hard earned money, even if we are correct and have the facts to back it up, is really difficult because he saw those retail diamonds in ideal lighting and they don't seem that bad - or at least, they certainly don't seem $7000 worse than what WF would be. (Obviously I'm not picking on WF and it would be blasphemous to genuinely compare them to Jared; I just know from witnessing firsthand with threads here and people I've talked to that this is a very common thought process).

I'm not sure how we do better at these things. I'm just thinking out loud, perhaps. So, with knowing that this is how things can take their course, I see merit in Garry's point. Registration doesn't directly indicate good or not good I think, but... Hmm.

It's a conundrum (corundum, heh...)

If after reading here for a bit or even posting and they made an educated decision to buy the jarad set in this situation then I am at peace and they were well served.
PS is not in RT really about what they buy its about the journey.
That is the difference between a sales person and a PS prosumer.
A sales person the pay off is a sale, the payoff for a prosumer is a thank you for helping them on the journey.

 

[amoline]

Fair enough, and Karl makes an excellent point. - no surprises there.

 

[lissyflo]

I’m in complete agreement that education is always a good thing. Also, the more knowledgable the advice the better as long as breadth of opinion in the advice given can be maintained. That would be my concern re: having an official hurdle before being able to post on RT - would a diverse enough group of people want to make that commitment? Having the same education shouldn’t remove personal opinion - doctors with the same medical degree disagree on treatment plans for life and death cases and that’s far more important advice than choosing a diamond (that’s a flippant example, I know, but... ). Would enough contributors with a different perspective be keen, to keep a healthy diversity of advice?

Someone at the start of the thread mentioned that good RT advisors need empathy and the ability to focus their advice based on the poster’s own preferences, rather than chasing their personal view of what the ‘best‘ diamond might be. That’s quite some skills-set, especially to maintain over the internet where there’s no personal contact to the interaction. A smaller but highly educated pool of posters of that ilk would be staggeringly good for PS. A smaller pool of posters, only few of whom can override their knowledge and accept that some people like wonky stones or large-tabled emerald cuts, could be the death knell for PS.

A really basic way to help could be to change the post count/PS badge system. At present, two people could have made the same number of total posts; one could have posted entirely in RT, giving technical suggestions, the other posted entirely in hangout and SMTB with fluffy, admiring posts (no offence meant to anyone - I fall in the latter category). Their post counts and badges are the same, so new members may take well-meant but uninformed advice without realising; anyone new could end up having to research posters before they can properly research diamonds.

Maybe a separate, specific RT post count could be an easy way to give more information on the person giving advice? It’s only after you’ve been here a while that you get a flavour of someone’s personality, so newbies have no way of judging who it is who might be advising them - all advice is worth taking with a pinch of salt until you trust the person providing it. That need for trust is also why I dislike the idea of rewards for posters - the motivation may be well meant, but any payment/reward for services should raise a query about impartiality. It’s not enough to be independent - PS advisors also need to be seen to be independent.

 

[lissyflo]

^^ Editing the above to add that I know that quantity of posts still wouldn’t necessarily correlate to quality of posts, but at least a specific RT post count would be a slightly clearer, but still opaque, measure of knowledge!

 

[arkieb1]

@yssie - I disagree with people having to have something like a diamonds 101 course to be able to make diamond recommendations, I can think of at least one member for example over on the CS boards that has done a course and still gives really inaccurate shi##y advice to newcomers and I've seen the same here for diamonds....

Some of the best advise is often from some of the older members (and a few newer ones) the sad thing is many of them don't have the time or the general interest to post much any more.

I didn't see the IGI post but IGI diamonds wholesale on places like RapNet are cheaper than GIA or AGL graded stones and are can be a couple of grades out in colour and clarity, that's the issue with not recommending them, unless it's an old cut or something rare. (I didn't see that post so perhaps I am taking it out of context).

 

[MMtwo]

One of the "selling" points to the prosumer model is the current unbiased recommendation. Sure, not everyone always has the correct information. However, most of the time they person showing up with a question will end up a little better than when they started.

If the forum changed into a competitive sales environment by proxy prosumers it might be the end of Pricescope. One of the first posts on the thread was from someone highly suspicious of a kick-back system behind the scenes of Pricescope. As it is, and as imperfect as it is now, the prosumers are not financially benefiting from their recommendations. Change that, and Pricescope becomes a luxe strip mall of jewelers and their paid staff of prosumers. Just ick.

Recently, I was an enthusiast/rep for an auto brand. This company gave us a certain amount of money to buy their logo branded merchandise and hand it out to consumers driving the car brand. Someone in marketing had the idea to change the system to a competitive model where the star enthusiasts received all of the marketing dollars and the other brand reps were awarded nothing but were told they could "earn" their way back to handing out the goodwill awards. Guess how that ended? Mutiny. People left en-masse on principle, even those that made the cut.

 

[MissGotRocks]

Here's the thing though Kenny... that's not a fair comparison. You're assuming the same size and you're also assuming crappy cut (aka poor light performance). That's an awful comparison because the latter will be much more affordable than the former. Apples-to-Oranges.

The RELEVANT apples-to-apples comparison that the average consumer faces is this: side-by-side, sparklier vs bigger (and to be clear I'm talking "good enough GIA XXX" cut, not frozen spitball cut). That's the trade-off that most people will be making in the real world.

I've actually done this comparison in real life (as noted above) and almost all the women chose the larger stone.

Have you posted pictures of the ring you actually chose? Would love to see it!

 

[yssie]

Someone at the start of the thread mentioned that good RT advisors need empathy and the ability to focus their advice based on the poster’s own preferences, rather than chasing their personal view of what the ‘best‘ diamond might be. That’s quite some skills-set, especially to maintain over the internet where there’s no personal contact to the interaction. A smaller but highly educated pool of posters of that ilk would be staggeringly good for PS. A smaller pool of posters, only few of whom can override their knowledge and accept that some people like wonky stones or large-tabled emerald cuts, could be the death knell for PS.

Highlighting your post because you've stated this eloquently, and I completely understand the concern - and I know it's shared by others.

I'm banking on the fact that enthusiasts will always want to be involved in the most highly-reputed communities, the communities that are acknowledged to be the best of the best... In order for PS to be the best of the best in terms of repute and quality of advice, though, I think there must be some standard to maintain. Back to my analogy to open source softare: Some projects are more highly-regarded than others. Well-regarded projects impose more rigorous requirements on their contributors, and more people want to be contributors to those projects partly because of the cache of being able to state that they've had contributions accepted.

I completely agree that pitting prosumers against each other is a recipe for failure - we'd keep the egotists and narcissists and we'd lose the open-minded collaborators. We'd certainly lose the PS family feeling.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Really interesting concept @yssie
An issue I’ve encountered, on many occasions, is seeing someone post something I know to be false. Sometimes the person learned what they are saying by reading things here.
Most people don’t like another person correcting them. In many cases, a debate takes place that usually ends badly.
Still, I persist
I’ve always felt that those in my industry ( old time NY diamond people) are totally missing the boat on Pricescope.
I have many industry friends that share experiences and outlook- but none that want to - or see value- in posting here.
So the industry is represented in a rather one sided manner, from my perspective.
And those on the side of the technical manner of assessing diamonds are eloquent- and have more data like ASET to back up their position.
The internet- and the technical manner of diamond assessment is there to show you don’t need actually hands on experience to buy.
But as I’ve written- kudos to PS mgmt.
These differences of opinion will never be solved- yet here, people still can air different opinions and maintain a sense of respect and decorum. Unlike so much of what we live in today.

 

[TODiamonds]

Textbook real-time example of prototypical PS thread nowadays:

Which diamond would you choose?

May I ask the experts to chime in please? Which would you choose? Will the one with med fluorescence be problematic? Thanks In advance

www.pricescope.com

 

[whitewave]

@TODiamonds why don’t you do all of us here on PS a favor and put me on ignore, instead of trying to dominate all threads with your 175 posts and your incorrect information. I’ll do the same for you.

 

[yssie]

Textbook real-time example of prototypical PS thread nowadays:

Which diamond would you choose?

May I ask the experts to chime in please? Which would you choose? Will the one with med fluorescence be problematic? Thanks In advance

www.pricescope.com

From that thread:

He/she is fine. They are driving (or flying) across the boarder to pick it up in person (thus avoiding taxes) and then bringing it back in their possession to Canada. It's fool proof.

This is tax fraud.
And recommending tax fraud on a public website indicates that you lack both ethics and common sense.
These are two qualities that I certainly want prosumers in my community to demand.

On the other hand, I agree with @TODiamonds that PSers were too quick to denigrate the OP's original selections - too many assumptions based on insufficient information.

 

[MMtwo]

Textbook real-time example of prototypical PS thread nowadays:

Which diamond would you choose?

May I ask the experts to chime in please? Which would you choose? Will the one with med fluorescence be problematic? Thanks In advance

www.pricescope.com

That thread was painful to read.

 

[whitewave]

From that thread:

This is tax fraud.
And recommending tax fraud on a public website indicates that you lack both ethics and common sense.
These are two qualities that I certainly want prosumers in my community to demand.

On the other hand, I agree with @TODiamonds that PSers were too quick to denigrate the OP's original selections - too many assumptions based on insufficient information.

Yes, it’s why I asked her if she saw them in person. Without her seeing it in person, all we can do is assume. The return policy is good, so she can see in person and return if wanted.

I was worried about the tax information, but it got more involved than I know.

 

[Johnbt]

I'm still pondering the original question and the fact that only 1% of visitors register. I don't know if that's an unusual number given the number of forums I've read and researched since the last century and the limited number I've actually joined. If I open PS and don't sign in, am I counted as a visitor or does the software know I'm registered but not signed in?

I know I spent a lot of time here reading before I joined and posted in March 2018. We received our WF ACA on April 10, 2018 after a few months of looking and researching.
_______________________

"Joe walks into Jared and wants to buy studs for his wife."

After buying the studs at Jared he stops at McDonalds to buy his wife a hamburger. Does Joe care that the restaurant across the street has a much tastier handmade burger on a freshly baked bun for only $12.95?

I've tried to get a handful of local folks - most a generation or two younger than my 69 years - to look at PS for a little education and to consider an online dealer for their engagement ring, but they were pretty much stuck at "...a round diamond has 57 facets and they all reflect light..." "Who has the lowest price?"

Other than price, they didn't need no stinking numbers.

 

[amoline]

"Joe walks into Jared and wants to buy studs for his wife."

After buying the studs at Jared he stops at McDonalds to buy his wife a hamburger. Does Joe care that the restaurant across the street has a much tastier handmade burger on a freshly baked bun for only $12.95?

I've tried to get a handful of local folks - most a generation or two younger than my 69 years - to look at PS for a little education and to consider an online dealer for their engagement ring, but they were pretty much stuck at "...a round diamond has 57 facets and they all reflect light..." "Who has the lowest price?"

Other than price, they didn't need no stinking numbers.

All very true, and sad. I think the difference is that people generally know that McDonald's is not fine dining, but diamonds are more confusing and some aspects of them are so specific and minute that just like your and my friends is not worth the time - in their mind. A diamond is a diamond, etc.

Great points.

 

[distracts]

I didn't see the IGI post but IGI diamonds wholesale on places like RapNet are cheaper than GIA or AGL graded stones and are can be a couple of grades out in colour and clarity, that's the issue with not recommending them, unless it's an old cut or something rare. (I didn't see that post so perhaps I am taking it out of context).

You may have missed the posts on this but studies where the same diamonds have been sent into a number of lab show IGI is actually NOT out a couple of grades in color or clarity - they just have that reputation in the US so trade lower. So it’s a lot better in IGI threads to put both the “common knowledge” out there WITH the data we actually have, and let the buyer decide what they are ok with.

I'm still pondering the original question and the fact that only 1% of visitors register. I don't know if that's an unusual number given the number of forums I've read and researched since the last century and the limited number I've actually joined. If I open PS and don't sign in, am I counted as a visitor or does the software know I'm registered but not signed in?

that is absolutely not an unusual number - everything I know about social media says that is actually a GREAT number for conversion. I would be more concerned that it means that not that many people are looking at PS overall and PS needs to get in front of more eyes.

 

[Karl_K]

re IGI
When someone says IGI is garbage and someone else says IGI can be reasonable. They are both right.
There are multiple IGI labs with the worse one being the USA lab which produces in my opinion and many others total garbage valuation reports.
The most common in the US IGI reports are the garbage IGI USA reports.

As far as the other IGI labs sure some of them can do reasonably good grading compared to GIA/AGS. But the problem is with out professionally grading that specific diamond who can tell if that specific IGI reports grades are reasonable ones.
Hence diamonds with IGI reports trade at a discount.

Btw the trade experts are available to help with disagreements of facts with educational material and advise. @<name> works wonders. :}

 

[arkieb1]

@distracts - that doesn't explain why IGI stones are ALWAYS cheaper on places like RapNet and wholesale. The diamond industry itself holds IGI stones in lower regard than stones certified from AGL and GIA.

I'm not sure which studies you are referring to (and how accurate they are), but everything I've read suggests these stones are priced lower because generally if they come from IGI they are more likely than AGL or GIA to be inaccurately graded for colour and clarity.

It's always been well known that EGL in places like India, Asia etc are out several colours, then EGL USA, then then IGI USA and some of the European labs, IGI in countries like Asia, then AGL, (some people dispute this and put AGL first) then GIA. EGL USA is supposed to have gotten better than it used to be.

 

[prs]

One of the issues I see with RT is that our expert "Helper Posters" tend to assume that people coming new to the board already have a certain level of diamond knowledge. Someone looking for their ER and making their first ever post, and who has never even heard of GIA, might quickly find themselves directed to super ideal vendors.

I wonder if we might be less intimidating and of better service to diamond newbies if we provided a few educational sticky threads right at the top of RT. A newbie can choose how far he or she wants to take their diamond education by how many of the threads they read. If they then decide to post they will be in a much better position to take advantage of our advice. I can see the need for at least three educational stickies:

1. Diamond Buying 101
2 Advanced Buying Guide for Round Diamonds
3 Advanced Buying Guide for Other Shapes.

Diamond Buying 101 would consist of the basics;

1. Why you should always buy a certified stone so you know for sure you got what you paid for. Why GIA is the industry standard for diamond certs.
2. Explain the different GIA color grades.
3. Explain the different GIA clarity grades.
4. Explain the effect on price of the different color and clarity grades. Perhaps by presenting a simple price ratio chart. The one below is based on a recent Rappaport report for 1.0-1.49ct round brilliants with G, VS2 being the base ratio set at 100:



5. Explain that cut is by far the most important factor in determining the appearance of a diamond. The whole purpose of a diamond is to sparkle and it's the cut that determines if your diamond is dull and lifeless or if it gleams and dances on her finger.
6. For a lot more about cut please move on to our Advanced Buying Guides.

I'm sure those of you much more knowledgeable than me can put together the Advanced Guides but you get the idea. Keep it concise and get the main points across in as simple terms as possible.

 

[whitewave]

I assumed all of that was here https://www.pricescope.com/wiki but maybe we need to relook at the information here and tweak?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I am totally blown away by the smart, funny, intelligent and nice people in this discussion.
Re an easy 'help me' landing section - and concepts of rewarding - would it be worth starting a thread for pro's and con's. We got lots of valid con's, but I am an Edward DeBono lateral thinking fan - take an idea, any idea, and use it to go to a different starting place. Do the six thinking hats and see where you get to.
Re IGI - most IGI stones on Rap are graded in India. Often the owner thinks the stone is G VS1 and GIA gave it H VS1, so they send it to IGI. In my experience IGI India and SE-Asia is 1/3rd to 1/2 of a grade softer on colour and closer still on clarity.

 

[MMtwo]

There is another forum around that is to pearls what PS is to diamonds. That particular forum has a CPAA course that takes a few hours (it took a few days) to complete. It was designed to educate the forum pro-sumers and other pearl lovers. Upon completion of the chapter and quizzes, the student receives a lovely certification. Just a suggestion as you are thinking about education models.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

There is another forum around that is to pearls what PS is to diamonds. That particular forum has a CPAA course that takes a few hours (it took a few days) to complete. It was designed to educate the forum pro-sumers and other pearl lovers. Upon completion of the chapter and quizzes, the student receives a lovely certification. Just a thought as you are thinking about education models.

Volunteers for the course committee please!

 

[whitewave]

Volunteers for the course committee please!

Or nominations? Lol I can think of a few people. Some have GIA classes under their belts.