Are we too elitist & doing 99% of newbies a disservice?

[Rockdiamond]

5. Explain that cut is by far the most important factor in determining the appearance of a diamond. The whole purpose of a diamond is to sparkle and it's the cut that determines if your diamond is dull and lifeless or if it gleams and dances on her finger.

This is a very important point- and I'm only quoting you PRS because of the proximity of your post- that statement has been made ad infinitum here. Nothing personal!!
But that statement, without clarification, is misleading. ( again- I know your post was an educational one as you see it)

It's like saying.
Spice is the most important factor in Italian food.
Without spice, there's no zing. And without Zing, your tongue won't dance around your mouth.
How much do we learn from a rule like this?

If we compare an Emerald Cut and an RBC, the round wins hands down on sparkle- right?
Yet a percentage of people will prefer the emerald cut.
Admittedly, a small percentage- but does that make them "wrong"?
So, yes cut is important, but I've seen too many cases where the preference for a certain sort of cut based on preference, gets turned into a concrete negative for the alternative stone.
Leakage is a great example.
Some people will prefer a stone that leaks a bit.
I hate the term for it's negative connotation.
Because the look that I grew up with used leakage as part of the beauty.
We can prove "Super Ideal" diamonds are brighter than the 60/60's of my youth- yet I have zero doubt a far greater percentage that chooses Emerald Cut, would go for the 60/60 if given a choice without any sort of description of what they were looking at.
H&A is not for everyone.

 

[OoohShiny]

I'm still pondering the original question and the fact that only 1% of visitors register.

Do we know if the 99% includes all the search engines / crawlers / bots that 'visit'?

 

[Karl_K]

different opinions within bounds are important...a class will just increase the groupthink that PS has. That is not a good thing.

 

[whitewave]

This is a very important point- and I'm only quoting you PRS because of the proximity of your post- that statement has been made ad infinitum here. Nothing personal!!
But that statement, without clarification, is misleading. ( again- I know your post was an educational one as you see it)

It's like saying.
Spice is the most important factor in Italian food.
Without spice, there's no zing. And without Zing, your tongue won't dance around your mouth.
How much do we learn from a rule like this?

If we compare an Emerald Cut and an RBC, the round wins hands down on sparkle- right?
Yet a percentage of people will prefer the emerald cut.
Admittedly, a small percentage- but does that make them "wrong"?
So, yes cut is important, but I've seen too many cases where the preference for a certain sort of cut based on preference, gets turned into a concrete negative for the alternative stone.
Leakage is a great example.
Some people will prefer a stone that leaks a bit.
I hate the term for it's negative connotation.
Because the look that I grew up with used leakage as part of the beauty.
We can prove "Super Ideal" diamonds are brighter than the 60/60's of my youth- yet I have zero doubt a far greater percentage that chooses Emerald Cut, would go for the 60/60 if given a choice without any sort of description of what they were looking at.
H&A is not for everyone.

Would you call leakage “contrast” or is that a different animal? What would you call it instead of leakage or what would leakage provide to the visuals of a diamond? Thanks.

 

[OoohShiny]

I think it could also be useful if it was possible to get some of Serg's work brought in to PS somehow? IIRC @Serg is able to calculate potential cut options from a given piece of rough and show how each option would differ in terms of quantifiable fire/dispersion/brightness/etc., so could we use that ability to create another section of the HCA tool, whereby the measurement data put into the tool would spit out quantified measurements of fire etc.?

That could help demonstrate the trade-offs of a 'good enough' stone versus a 'SuperIdeal' (or whatever) and allow informed decisions to be made, such as those suggested by TODiamonds. It could also demonstrate different flavours of 'beauty', which I believe Serg and Rockdiamond are both working so hard to push forward as an important factor.

I'm going to quote myself as I thought about something else to add when I was doing something else today, and had to note it in my phone calendar so I didn't forget to mention it


re: trying to evidence the benefits of great cutting, and how we quantify that, @Serg's work covers quantification of fire and brilliance, but a sliding scale and a number/percentage along that scale might not mean much to newbies (??) - I was therefore wondering if we could do something with the 'sphere of dispersion pattern' images that I am sure I've seen @Karl_K post??

(You know - the black background images with a cool symmetrical pattern of what the dispersion pattern would look like on the inside wall of a sphere if the stone was in the centre and a light was beamed into it through the table?)


If the software has the ability to do that sort of thing, does it not also have the ability to count the number of dispersion events being given off the stone and projected onto the inner wall of the sphere? And their size (at a given distance from the stone)?

If it was possible to do that, would I be correct in thinking that, for example:

- a SuperIdeal would have X dispersion events at Y size

- a 60/60 would have [similar/identical to X] dispersion events at [smaller than Y] size

- one of those 88- or 100-facet Round designs (or whatever the facet count is) would have [much more than X] dispersion events at [much smaller than Y] size

- a poorly cut MRB would have [less than X] events at [smaller? than Y] size

- a vintage OEC or similar would have [half of X] dispersion events at [double of Y] size

- etc. etc.


I think there would be difficulties in how you dealt with differing sizes of event, given long EC steps in the middle but short steps at the end, and the differing facet sizes in all shapes...

… but now my train of thought has run out of steam so I'll just have to leave this here as-is lol

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I'm going to quote myself as I thought about something else to add when I was doing something else today, and had to note it in my phone calendar so I didn't forget to mention it


re: trying to evidence the benefits of great cutting, and how we quantify that, @Serg's work covers quantification of fire and brilliance, but a sliding scale and a number/percentage along that scale might not mean much to newbies (??) - I was therefore wondering if we could do something with the 'sphere of dispersion pattern' images that I am sure I've seen @Karl_K post??

(You know - the black background images with a cool symmetrical pattern of what the dispersion pattern would look like on the inside wall of a sphere if the stone was in the centre and a light was beamed into it through the table?)


If the software has the ability to do that sort of thing, does it not also have the ability to count the number of dispersion events being given off the stone and projected onto the inner wall of the sphere? And their size (at a given distance from the stone)?

If it was possible to do that, would I be correct in thinking that, for example:

- a SuperIdeal would have X dispersion events at Y size

- a 60/60 would have [similar/identical to X] dispersion events at [smaller than Y] size

- one of those 88- or 100-facet Round designs (or whatever the facet count is) would have [much more than X] dispersion events at [much smaller than Y] size

- a poorly cut MRB would have [less than X] events at [smaller? than Y] size

- a vintage OEC or similar would have [half of X] dispersion events at [double of Y] size

- etc. etc.


I think there would be difficulties in how you dealt with differing sizes of event, given long EC steps in the middle but short steps at the end, and the differing facet sizes in all shapes...

… but now my train of thought has run out of steam so I'll just have to leave this here as-is lol

DiamCalc can produce those ETAS and DETAS images from 3D scans of any real diamond.
Sergey has taken this a lot further though with DiBox videos that count actual fire flashes duration and frequency from real life videos in an incredibly reproduce-able system.

 

[distracts]

I called my SIL who is a social media manager who says that if you have no gating on your forum (and afaik preloved is the only gated area), since the vast majority of people are lurkers, a 1% registration rate is really good.

She says if the goal is to increase registration, focus in on advertising on instagram to bring more people to the site, pop-ups to prompt people to register, and gating of more content so people have to sign in to see it. Since right now everything is open to the public, there's no incentive to register unless you want to post, but the majority of people on the internet are never going to want to post, so even if they register they won't be participating other than maybe hitting the like button. The downside of course to gating more content is you will be decreasing the number of total people who can learn from it.

But personally I'm not sure what benefit registration has? Is there a financial reason there need to be more registered users?

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

Distracts beat me to the punch. She is a smart cookie. I was just thinking myself about two experiences I had recently. I read the Washington Post and the New York Times. What I mean is I read 10 FREE articles a month that they allow. The NYT has just made me register(Make an account)if I want to read my free articles, so I did. The Post just cuts you off. Next, I have paid my water bll by just going to the site and go to my acc't to see how much it is. They also last month made me make an account to see my water bill which is an added step.

So, pethaps you are giving too much away without getting what you need in return. If 1% of people are signing up already. you have nothing to lose by making everyone sign up to get certain knowledge. You will still get the 1% even if others complain. This gateway(thanks Distracts) which is your homepage should sound elite and you must withhold some ability to read everything for nothing in return.

Also, subscriptions are now an in thing. Perhaps after a free trial, they can get a 1 yr subscription for signing up and 100 posts. Words matter.

I had a friend in direct marketing, which is cold calling, and 1% is a good return. This forum defintly deserves more people involved. Micro targeting also should be looked at. Fraternities, High end men clubs. their magazines and such.

Annette

I had no takers on my reward offer . It was not well thought out. Maybe a little stupid--don't agree with me--only I can say it.

 

[distracts]

I guess I just don't see what benefit there IS to getting more people to register? If there is some financial benefit to PS that allows the site to keep existing, like advertisers pay better if there are more registered users (I'm sure with all the photo hosting, PS is expensive to maintain), then that makes sense. Otherwise I think gating content is counterproductive to the concept of educating as many people as possible.

 

[yssie]

different opinions within bounds are important...a class will just increase the groupthink that PS has. That is not a good thing.

Did you even read my posts Karl?

I stated point blank that exposure should not be constrained to PS alone - learning demands exploration outside the world of PS precisely because PS is an echo chamber.

How on earth can a reasonable person possibly argue that having some exposure to industry norms, history, context, background, science is a bad thing? That's like saying "don't bother taking an art class before you host your own session for others because it will bias you".

Education is NOT bias unless you twist it into bias. Outside the realm of politics, anyway. Education done well provides a basis for evaluation and extension - it supports creativity and independent thought. Education done poorly is brainwashing. And brainwashing is one of the problems that this forum has right now, in spades. It should go without saying that we are aiming for the former, but since it apparently doesn't - let me state it explicitly.

I applaud @Garry H (Cut Nut) and @psadmin for being willing to consider how the forum might evolve to better suit an evolving audience. That they, the majority stakeholders, aren't willing to simply rest on their laurels and sing praises to their success thus far... Is admirable and worth taking to heart.

 

[Too Realistic]

The statistic of only 1% of people joining coupled with this thread, made me join. I am 40 pages deep in the forum and find myself pretty intimidated, but I am learning things.The first few pages I saw several posts about old European cuts and a guy named Alex? I was very excited when I went out to his Instagram and looked at his stones and became much less excited when I read about his prickly personality and the lack of lab reports - seems too dangerous for a newbie . I have been tasked to help my son find a diamond. I have many months to do my research and stumbled on this forum through Reddit early on. The only direction I have from my son is as big as possible and as sparkly as possible for $20,000. After reading so many pages and so many posts, I feel like I will be automatically directed to white flash and hpdiamonds. This is not necessarily a bad thing, although it seems like he would be forced into an I DiamondDue to budget constraints. Since the girlfriend has not seen any diamonds in real life, I have no idea if she’s color sensitive, So obviously more research needs to be done. It seems like many people are very helpful on this forum and I hope When my son gets closer, they will help him.
PS @smitcompton - missed the deadline - lol

 

[whitewave]

The statistic of only 1% of people joining coupled with this thread, made me join. I am 40 pages deep in the forum and find myself pretty intimidated, but I am learning things.The first few pages I saw several posts about old European cuts and a guy named Alex? I was very excited when I went out to his Instagram and looked at his stones and became much less excited when I read about his prickly personality and the lack of lab reports - seems too dangerous for a newbie . I have been tasked to help my son find a diamond. I have many months to do my research and stumbled on this forum through Reddit early on. The only direction I have from my son is as big as possible and as sparkly as possible for $20,000. After reading so many pages and so many posts, I feel like I will be automatically directed to white flash and hpdiamonds. This is not necessarily a bad thing, although it seems like he would be forced into an I DiamondDue to budget constraints. Since the girlfriend has not seen any diamonds in real life, I have no idea if she’s color sensitive, So obviously more research needs to be done. It seems like many people are very helpful on this forum and I hope When my son gets closer, they will help him.

He will have plenty of options because he has a nice budget.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I guess I just don't see what benefit there IS to getting more people to register? If there is some financial benefit to PS that allows the site to keep existing, like advertisers pay better if there are more registered users (I'm sure with all the photo hosting, PS is expensive to maintain), then that makes sense. Otherwise I think gating content is counterproductive to the concept of educating as many people as possible.

Sorry, yo all on the wrong tangent.
It is the fact that we get loads of lurkers who are looking to buy a diamond especially or a ring or other jewel.
If we can help more lurkers find what they are looking for then we achieve the altruistic part of our purpose. So no desire to gate any content.

But we have made some really smart paid/subs search and new stone alert options - I will get Andrey to come and explain those after the long weekend. Had almost no uptake. Many of you probably do not even know what they are, and I am sure you would love and use the tools, and promote them. There is no need to participate in the forums for those packages.
Developing stuff to help people and no one uses it is frustrating.
We added Looks Like size to HCA and began charging - wow- what a success - 17 months later we have nearly paid back the development costs and some of the patent fees.

To keep PS alive subscriptions would be great, but the real deal is money from sponsors who list diamonds and jewels. That business is shrinking as affiliates have grown and can afford to do paid adwords etc.

Helping newbie people is our most important function and because many of your recommendations go to our sponsors the sponsors keep paying.
Ultimately your contributions keep us alive and you all help by making sure there are no shills and giving great advice.

 

[Too Realistic]

Sorry, yo all on the wrong tangent.
It is the fact that we get loads of lurkers who are looking to buy a diamond especially or a ring or other jewel.
If we can help more lurkers find what they are looking for then we achieve the altruistic part of our purpose. So no desire to gate any content.

But we have made some really smart paid/subs search and new stone alert options - I will get Andrey to come and explain those after the long weekend. Had almost no uptake. Many of you probably do not even know what they are, and I am sure you would love and use the tools, and promote them. There is no need to participate in the forums for those packages.
Developing stuff to help people and no one uses it is frustrating.
We added Looks Like size to HCA and began charging - wow- what a success - 17 months later we have nearly paid back the development costs and some of the patent fees.

To keep PS alive subscriptions would be great, but the real deal is money from sponsors who list diamonds and jewels. That business is shrinking as affiliates have grown and can afford to do paid adwords etc.

Helping newbie people is our most important function and because many of your recommendations go to our sponsors the sponsors keep paying.
Ultimately your contributions keep us alive and you all help by making sure there are no shills and giving great advice.

I’m a newbie, and I’d love to see/hear about these new things!

 

[Karl_K]

Did you even read my posts Karl?

yep and I was not addressing you alone but Garry and others.
I am all for good education materials but badges, classes and quizzes is a bridge to far to me.
It is to much like a big step towards control of content.
At the very least it gives the appearance of control over content.
The very freewheeling nature that annoys some times is also what makes it work.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

yep and I was not addressing you alone but Garry and others.
I am all for good education materials but badges, classes and quizzes is a bridge to far to me.
It is to much like a big step towards control of content.
At the very least it gives the appearance of control over content.
The very freewheeling nature that annoys some times is also what makes it work.

I started this thread for that discussion guys:

Lets make some diamond knowledge courses, with a quizz

In another discussion moneymeister said: There is another forum around that is to pearls what PS is to diamonds. That particular forum has a CPAA course that takes a few hours (it took a few days) to complete. It was designed to educate the forum pro-sumers and other pearl lovers. Upon...

www.pricescope.com

 

[yssie]

yep and I was not addressing you alone but Garry and others.
I am all for good education materials but badges, classes and quizzes is a bridge to far to me.
It is to much like a big step towards control of content.
At the very least it gives the appearance of control over content.
The very freewheeling nature that annoys some times is also what makes it work.

I suppose I will reluctantly concede that you are permitted a perspective that differs from mine and is not entirely unreasonable

 

[Karl_K]

I suppose I will reluctantly concede that you are permitted a perspective that differs from mine and is not entirely unreasonable

rofl!!!!
Well played well played

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I’m a newbie, and I’d love to see/hear about these new things!

If you log out and do a stone search, then click the Price Alerts option you will get this screen - same on as if you use up 3 free HCA searches.
Click the yellow box for whats included for $10.

 

[distracts]

But we have made some really smart paid/subs search and new stone alert options - I will get Andrey to come and explain those after the long weekend. Had almost no uptake. Many of you probably do not even know what they are, and I am sure you would love and use the tools, and promote them. There is no need to participate in the forums for those packages.
Developing stuff to help people and no one uses it is frustrating.
We added Looks Like size to HCA and began charging - wow- what a success - 17 months later we have nearly paid back the development costs and some of the patent fees.

Yes - we definitely want to know about new tools so we can recommend them. I didn't know there were any new tools. I am glad to hear the HCA tool changes were a success!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I am glad to hear the HCA tool changes were a success!

No, that is a lousy return on efforts let alone investments Distracts. It doesn't pay for my travel costs to visit for my annual meeting with Andrey.

 

[Serg]

I'm going to quote myself as I thought about something else to add when I was doing something else today, and had to note it in my phone calendar so I didn't forget to mention it


re: trying to evidence the benefits of great cutting, and how we quantify that, @Serg's work covers quantification of fire and brilliance, but a sliding scale and a number/percentage along that scale might not mean much to newbies (??) - I was therefore wondering if we could do something with the 'sphere of dispersion pattern' images that I am sure I've seen @Karl_K post??

(You know - the black background images with a cool symmetrical pattern of what the dispersion pattern would look like on the inside wall of a sphere if the stone was in the centre and a light was beamed into it through the table?)


If the software has the ability to do that sort of thing, does it not also have the ability to count the number of dispersion events being given off the stone and projected onto the inner wall of the sphere? And their size (at a given distance from the stone)?

If it was possible to do that, would I be correct in thinking that, for example:

- a SuperIdeal would have X dispersion events at Y size

- a 60/60 would have [similar/identical to X] dispersion events at [smaller than Y] size

- one of those 88- or 100-facet Round designs (or whatever the facet count is) would have [much more than X] dispersion events at [much smaller than Y] size

- a poorly cut MRB would have [less than X] events at [smaller? than Y] size

- a vintage OEC or similar would have [half of X] dispersion events at [double of Y] size

- etc. etc.


I think there would be difficulties in how you dealt with differing sizes of event, given long EC steps in the middle but short steps at the end, and the differing facet sizes in all shapes...

… but now my train of thought has run out of steam so I'll just have to leave this here as-is lol

@OoohShiny ,

Unfortunately such simple information does not describe a diamond cut Fire( Beauty) correctly.
There are many other important factors. See for example how "diamond scanning speed=DETAS" depends from pavilion angle of RBC.
And even we describe a diamond beauty correctly it will not change the market. The main problem is a "China wall " between manufactures and consumers.

 

[OoohShiny]

DiamCalc can produce those ETAS and DETAS images from 3D scans of any real diamond.
Sergey has taken this a lot further though with DiBox videos that count actual fire flashes duration and frequency from real life videos in an incredibly reproduce-able system.

I should have known that Serg was already many, many steps ahead of me lol

 

[OoohShiny]

@OoohShiny ,

Unfortunately such simple information does not describe a diamond cut Fire( Beauty) correctly.
There are many other important factors. See for example how "diamond scanning speed=DETAS" depends from pavilion angle of RBC.
And even we describe a diamond beauty correctly it will not change the market. The main problem is a "China wall " between manufactures and consumers.

Thank you for your reply, Serg!

I regret that I am not sure I completely understand the image - is it saying that c34.5 p42 RBC has much(!) wider dispersion fans? (Despite such a stone probably scoring poorly on the HCA tool and likely to be showing leakage from some pavilion facets?)

I appreciate it must be difficult for you, fighting an uphill struggle against overwhelming market forces but please keep the faith - the power of Pricescope might be subtle, and your work currently under-appreciated but over time I believe the wider market will see sense, and we do appreciate your efforts!

 

[OoohShiny]

So, yes cut is important, but I've seen too many cases where the preference for a certain sort of cut based on preference, gets turned into a concrete negative for the alternative stone.
Leakage is a great example.
Some people will prefer a stone that leaks a bit.
I hate the term for it's negative connotation.
Because the look that I grew up with used leakage as part of the beauty.

Not diamonds... but an example of beauty despite leakage??

Vintage bar pin with French cuts...any guesses on the stones?

Was visiting with my aunt yesterday and she showed me this older piece that my great-grandmother owned. She’s having me take it to my jeweler this week for an appraisal since he specializes in antique & vintage pieces. It’s a bar pin with some cool engraving details and French cuts, but I’m...

www.pricescope.com

 

[AV_]

... wall " between manufactures and consumers.

What do you mean?

It is always nicer to buy off the shelf from where made to order is possible, even small & simple things.

 

[Karl_K]

Thank you for your reply, Serg!

I regret that I am not sure I completely understand the image - is it saying that c34.5 p42 RBC has much(!) wider dispersion fans? (Despite such a stone probably scoring poorly on the HCA tool and likely to be showing leakage from some pavilion facets?)

I appreciate it must be difficult for you, fighting an uphill struggle against overwhelming market forces but please keep the faith - the power of Pricescope might be subtle, and your work currently under-appreciated but over time I believe the wider market will see sense, and we do appreciate your efforts!

Except faster is not better.
Many EC cuts would be very slow and that is the one of the best thing about them, watching the play of light across the diamond.
Also diamonds dont revolve around the girdle on the hand and people will adjust speed to what suits them.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Would you call leakage “contrast” or is that a different animal? What would you call it instead of leakage or what would leakage provide to the visuals of a diamond? Thanks.

This is such a great question, to me....it points out some of what I see as a truly challenging aspect of the discussion on make ( cut)- and that is terminology.
Really simple answer...we don’t want maximum light return- we have mirrors for that. We want pleasing light return.
There’s elements of that. For example, contrast works to produce brighter flashes.
I've seen it (we were a CBI dealer some years back), I love them, there's just no doubt, the stones we're speaking of here as "Super Ideals" are amazing. Chunky stones work this way as well.
“Crushed ice” stones rely more on scintillation.
With scintillation, you sacrifice a small amount of brightness for ...sparkle? And leakage is part of the recipe. But it’s not necessarily a negative aspect. It’s difficult to envision “leaking” as a positive.
See, the terminology is a challenge.

I’m not a techie guy- but from a hands on perspective that stretches back over 40 years I’ve noticed things.
The best cut 60/60 carat sized stones used to average 6.5mm
6.2mm was a deep one back in the '90's

I just did a quick Rapnet search.
Narrow search- only 54 results- but they tell us something.
1.00-1.00cts
60 table
60 depth
Triple EX GIA

Only 8 were below 6.45mm
The average MM spread was at least 6.48mm. 4 stones 6.5mm +


I left all other parameters and changed to 57 table, 62 depth
73 diamonds
Not a stone over 6.44 ( only 1 was 6.44)
Many under 6.4- I'd say we average around 6.37mm

Bottom line- how many buyers want a slightly larger diamond for the money- with different light performance that has less contrast and more scintillation?
They’re really not given that choice here if the discussion is framed as “Super Ideal is best - everything else is lesser”
And it’s frequently framed exactly that way

 

[Serg]

Thank you for your reply, Serg!

I regret that I am not sure I completely understand the image - is it saying that c34.5 p42 RBC has much(!) wider dispersion fans? (Despite such a stone probably scoring poorly on the HCA tool and likely to be showing leakage from some pavilion facets?)

I appreciate it must be difficult for you, fighting an uphill struggle against overwhelming market forces but please keep the faith - the power of Pricescope might be subtle, and your work currently under-appreciated but over time I believe the wider market will see sense, and we do appreciate your efforts!

Yes, the diamonds with bigger pavilion angle have higher dispersion for pavilion main facets and catch more often light sources. Of course round diamonds with very deep pavilion have many strong disadvantages. There are many typical conflicts in cuts : between Fire and Brilliancy, black and white, chaos and order. There are not any best ( Ideal) combination . As people do dogs breeding they need do diamond cuts breeding .

 

[whitewave]

@Rockdiamond i did a deep dive on 60/60 early this morning and why do you think the well cut/ good light return (even with fire) 60/60s are hard to find? Are they getting recut to ideal specs or what?

Do I have it correct that 60/60s are less expensive than ideal cut diamonds? For those looking to maximize size, 60/60s can help stretch budget? (If you find a good one).