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Are we too elitist & doing 99% of newbies a disservice?

Are good at helping enough newbie buyers?


  • Total voters
    97

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
14,770
Rock Diamond (from another thread) "No matter how well informed PS readers are- many people will just go online, do a bit of googling and go for the safest bet."
This statement is so very true. There are so many really well meaning and smart savvy folk contribute here on PriceScope to guide people in buying and selecting a top diamond, I think we have a huge problem.
1. Less than 1% of visitors ever sign up and post.
2. The advice we give here is often way over the top and complex for non rocket scientist woman/man in the street.
3. Many young people in love are worried about making the life time commitment choice. Working long hours etc in their new career. They just want to make a quick safe and simple OK selection.

They may not have time to learn our jargon or the desire to spend scarce spare brain power.

We can be way too elitist.

I think we could help 50 times more people get a good enough diamond and setting at a considerable saving without getting 'enchanted' out of their money.
 

whitewave

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
8,811
I try to balance what the person wants and how they want to use their budget.

I think several technical people (buyers)have already read up and have already decided they want a super ideal before they post.

If someone is “clueless” then I feel like I try to explore what they are looking for, and I have given my blessing on other than a 34.5-35 crown angle. Lol.

I totally get though why people try to make sense of the madness, and there are people like me who don’t have the luxury of going to a local BM store to see with eyes (my local jewelers have cluster rings to look like a single diamond and clarity enhanced). What do you do with that?

If someone can afford to fly somewhere and visit, great. What percent does that?

So they can’t travel and they want to buy, so what is the safest bet?
 

whitewave

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
8,811
I changed my vote because I thought I was answering the title question. Oops.
 

Karl_K

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
8,711
PS can be simple or it can be complex it depends on what someone wants from it.
Someone can say I dont want to learn all this stuff point me to a good buy and be done.
Other people get interested in the deep end and enjoy the insanity,
 

amoline

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
307
I'm not sure that elitist would be the first word I jump to, but I would absolutely say that PSers are significantly jewelry spoiled and our eyes are definitely "warped." (As in, we judge jewelry by a PS standard and not vs the average buyer standard)

We are used to having quality that is equal or occasionally even finer than some of the big names out there and for a fraction of the price.

And, in the good intentions of those on PS, in our good hearts we simply want everyone else to experience the same thing. But, thing is, not everyone wants that.

Certainly there are those who dive head first into things like ASET and angles and whatnot, but I'd risk saying that the vast majority of those fraction who do post still don't really care about it - as the first post says, people just want to know they aren't being taken all the way to the bank.

I think the same exact thing happens in the photography world - as a pro I care about FPS of shooting, ISO capability, studio light synching, blah blah - much more. I get asked all the time "Is XYZ a good camera? Should I buy it?" and my good natured naivety wants to think that anyone asking me that question also cares about those tiny details, but 99.9% of them will never use a flash or even take it off Full Auto mode; they just want the "pro validation" that they are getting a decent camera that they can use to take decent pictures of their kids. Sure, there are those who really do like getting into the nitty gritty, but aside from the professional photography conventions they remain few and far between. :)
 

TODiamonds

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jul 27, 2019
Messages
260
I don't send my friends to PS. The reason is exactly as you describe Garry.

They end up being told they need to purchase a stone with x table, y crown, z pavilion, HCA score of <2, inclusions located in areas abc, etc. Naturally with all these restrictions, the only place to point them is toward super ideals. And then what inevitably follows is... For "only" a few hundred/thousand more you can buy this super ideal from Whiteflash, and guess what... LIFETIME UPGRADES! (they'll say that as if normal people upgrade their diamonds every few years).

PS is practically an advertising forum for the "superelite" online vendors. All too often I see regular joes coming here asking for advice on perfectly fine stones they've found on BN/JA through their own research and diligence, be told that they should "spend a little more" to get a super ideal. I actually find it financially irresponsible given we don't know what people's personal financial situations are.

The vast majority of normal people want to simply buy a decent stone without getting hustled. They are dealing with all kinds of stress in their lives - personal stress of popping the question, careers, financial constraints - the last thing they want is to deal with all the stressors of finding the perfect stones that are often pushed on PS. They just want a good stone at a decent price.

Anytime I bring it up or try to save someone a few bucks by offering a practical solution, I get crucified by the loyalists here. I've been thrown under the bus in countless threads just because I'm new here or because I go against the well entrenched PS view of spending way more for the branded stones. Truth be told, PS is not a very inviting place for newbies. It's very cult-like with a "you're either with us or against us" vibe. And yes - PS is very elitist and many of the folks come across as arrogant, especially to new members who haven't been around long. The only reason I tolerate it and hang around is to learn from the few knowledgeable and down to earth dudes remaining like Garry, sledge, John P, Wink, etc.

Candid enough for ya? :)
 
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Lvoeshinythings

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jul 25, 2018
Messages
140
Most forums are full of enthusiasts. I don’t know any forums that aren’t. With so many enthusiasts on the board, it’s bound to get technical, detailed and maybe a little more complex.

“Elitist” is not the word that comes to mind for me. I’m new here and have felt that the responses I’ve read are always informational. Whether I understand them or not is another question. But I always appreciate the info shared. With most research, it’s usually the intent to gather as much info as you can and then the user will decide how to best use said info (or not).

IMO, the word to describe PSers is PASSIONATE.
 
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jp201845

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jun 24, 2018
Messages
270
Plus the whole triple ex thing that doesn’t make a lot of sense
But yet is the gold standard world wide for diamond grading.

I wonder if GIA will ever see the light (pun intended ) and implement the same grading system AGS uses for light performance. How will the diamond industry change if that happens?

Sorry for going off track Gary just throwing my 2 cents out there.
 

Bron357

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Messages
3,766
My 5 cents.
I’m no diamond guru, they are not my “passion” and I do think sometimes all the talk about HCA tool and percentage table and 60/60 and Heart and Arrows etc etc would completely overwhelm most newbies.
sometimes I worry that some people who have come here “after the fact” have been upset about the response(s) they get. They want to be proud of their purchase but they find out they bought a lemon.
sometimes I think with all the mammoth diamonds that many PSers own and proudly display that newbies are embarrassed to offer up their little sparklebomb.
this is nothing against those with big sparklers, many of us have worked long and hard or waited and waited to get to where we are but I think newbies dont post because they feel inadequate.
 

amoline

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
307
I can see how the nitpicking could feel elitist if one is a newbie.

There are times that I as a PS regular and lover want to just scream JUST PICK ONE on the "help me pick a stone" and similar threads. Politely, of course. :) PS has to be one of the worst places on the internet for paralysis by analysis. I fall into it myself, and often. Dollars are hard earned and jewelry is worthless, insofar as practicality goes - it's all just enjoyment and fun. We want to make sure that dollars go as far as possible, and I get that.

The superideal bias (and, more widely, certain vendors) is absurdly strong on PS and it's not for a bad reason - the stones really are gorgeous but sometimes it's like suggesting to a person who wants a 4-door sedan for picking up the kids and groceries that the best choice really is that Bentley, because it'll be sooo much more comfortable and the dealership will serve you champagne. I'm metaphorizing, of course, but even the good intentioned (and me) on PS sometimes go a little too quickly to "it's just the PS way." And then the person buys the Bentley on recommendation and their kids get in and spill french fries on the floor and never bring it to the wash. ;-) (I wonder how many people buy a great and wonderful PS-recommended diamond to have it put in a setting and cleaned almost never). Stones get vetted for crown angles being slightly off and for an arrow in an H&A image not quite matching up.

The only thing the vast, vast majority of the earth's population care about when it comes to diamonds is size. The prime (albeit anecdotal) example of this is my mother's ER and one of her friend's ER. My mother's is an older style with a 1/2 carat diamond, big for the time that it was purchased. It's quite a nice stone and sparkles great even next to her superideal studs. Her friend's diamond is a 1.2 carat (or so) diamond that looks as PSers would say "frozen spit." It's probably an I2 or I3 and it looks like a cloudy quartz or something that isn't even a diamond. It absolutely does not sparkle (and it also hasn't been cleaned in months).

Guess what diamond gets more compliments, by far?-- It ain't the sparkly one. "Wow, that's a huge rock" is what people say. And my mom's friend says "thank you," feels good, and moves along. My mother is a "jewelry person" and wouldn't be caught dead wearing a big cloudy diamond but at the risk of sounding like a broken record, most people aren't jewelry people.

Now, of COURSE this doesn't mean PS should start recommending frozen clouds for size only, but I do think we could all do well to remind ourselves of the non-PS type -- remembering that we at PS are the jewelry .01% -- when we help new folks. So, maybe I'll say perhaps we are occasionally elitist - but it comes from good intentions.

Sorry for the essay. :D
 

winnietucker

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 4, 2019
Messages
574
My 5 cents.
I’m no diamond guru, they are not my “passion” and I do think sometimes all the talk about HCA tool and percentage table and 60/60 and Heart and Arrows etc etc would completely overwhelm most newbies.
sometimes I worry that some people who have come here “after the fact” have been upset about the response(s) they get. They want to be proud of their purchase but they find out they bought a lemon.
sometimes I think with all the mammoth diamonds that many PSers own and proudly display that newbies are embarrassed to offer up their little sparklebomb.
this is nothing against those with big sparklers, many of us have worked long and hard or waited and waited to get to where we are but I think newbies dont post because they feel inadequate.
I do have to say... lurking on PS really fueled my desire to upgrade. It was something I always kind of wanted to do but my 1.3 ct really felt small once I started seeing some of the big beauties here. I see smaller diamonds equally fawned over too of course, but I think for a lot of people what we see on PS is larger than what we see in real life.

Once my upgrade gets back from DK it will be by far the largest diamond of anyone I know in real life and I’m now starting to worry it’ll be too big for my actual life of working in an office and taking care of probably too many animals.
 

distracts

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 11, 2011
Messages
5,359
This statement is so very true. There are so many really well meaning and smart savvy folk contribute here on PriceScope to guide people in buying and selecting a top diamond, I think we have a huge problem.
1. Less than 1% of visitors ever sign up and post.
2. The advice we give here is often way over the top and complex for non rocket scientist woman/man in the street.
3. Many young people in love are worried about making the life time commitment choice. Working long hours etc in their new career. They just want to make a quick safe and simple OK selection.

They may not have time to learn our jargon or the desire to spend scarce spare brain power.

We can be way too elitist.

I think we could help 50 times more people get a good enough diamond and setting at a considerable saving without getting 'enchanted' out of their money.
I think the problem is that helping the masses safely buy a diamond WITHOUT giving the over-the-top and complex advice is just not very interesting, and therefore PS won't keep people around for free to do it. We'd just be doing a quick search, picking a diamond, and sharing it - which isn't why most of us are here. If we wanted to just do a quick search, pick a diamond, and tell someone to buy it, we'd probably all be starting websites like diamondpro where we could earn money for referrals.

So yeah, I do kind of think PS is doing 99% of newbies a disservice, but I also think if PS concentrated on that 99%, they'd lose the regulars that enable the forum to continue due to whatever the forum equivalent of institutional knowledge is, which is what enables the forum to be actively useful to anyone, and interesting enough for anyone to stick around.

I also think if you are saying less than 1% of visitors sign up rather than less than 0.1% of visitors sign up, PS is doing pretty well in terms of conversion. Way, way, WAY more people will visit and leave than visit and read, and way, way, WAY more people will visit and read than visit and post, and way, way, WAY more people will visit and post than visit and stay. And that's totally normal for any internet site.

I DO think PSers could be more respectful if someone wants to work with their specific vendor/local jeweler, or wants a shape that isn't an RB, or wants something weird, or wants a specific brand that we maybe don't recommend, and could try to recommend stock settings way more than going custom. I've seen a lot of people having total meltdowns over custom lately because they jumped right into custom work when they were absolutely not ready for it, and moreover jumped right into custom work with a vendor who I love but who is really, really for those of us who want total creative control with no one else's vision interfering. And I think PS DEFINITELY did all those users a disservice, and not also those users but also the vendors, who have in several cases had to remake rings, due to what I think is no fault of their own. I don't think that if I were a jewelry maker, I would be so generous as to remake a ring for someone for no extra charge or at cost or even at a discount when the only reason the ring needs to be remade is that the customer did not know what they wanted.

AND ABSOLUTELY no one should EVER advise anyone to go outside their budget.

I spent a couple of years away from PS until coming back this summer - and honestly I found in the meantime the advice people are giving seems to have degraded. It's less personal, more technical/jargony, people are less often recommending "good enough" diamonds and instead getting increasingly dogmatic, stock settings are recommended MUCH less, the vendor pool has shrunk, and users are more frequently getting pushed outside their budgets. It is SIGNIFICANTLY more insular than it was a few years ago.

I don't know how to fix that. I think part of the cause is that a few of the posters who were most helpful and specifically most helpful in the ways that are currently missing have "gone pro." And they have not been replaced by others with that level of technical knowledge AND social skills AND empathy. Like I can help people pretty well with colored stones and fancies, I think, and with settings - but quite frankly, I don't wish to discuss the merits of Si1 over Si2 or clouds vs feathers or a 36.5 vs 36.6 crown angle or whatever all day, I'd literally rather roll myself right off the edge of a cliff because that at least would be interesting. I'm definitely more of a "good enough" person than a "it must be 100% perfect in every way" person, and PS needs more "good enough" people but also more "good enough" people WITH the technical knowledge, so that they can explain something like "this is good enough but this is why it might have decreased performance compared to a super ideal but this is why that may not matter to you."

Like I remember the day when people intentionally looked for GIA "Very Goods" that scored well on the HCA - something that we are absolutely told not to do nowadays, though I recall several very beautiful diamonds that fit that category.
 

Bron357

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Messages
3,766
And another “pet hate” of mine, how on Rocky Talk if anyone mentions the “M” word they are quickly told off and directed to the group called ”Fabulous FASHION Jewellery”.
it quickly makes any who has or is considering lab grown material feel awkward and that they need to go straight to the “not REAL jewellery” aka cheap section and not sully this elite section!
People who are considering a “M” type gemstone might be against “blood diamonds” maybe they can’t afford a nice size diamond and want something pretty. Maybe they are sad or embarrassed that they don’t, wont or can’t have a real diamond engagement ring.
i think the title of that section needs to be changed to “Fabulous lab grown gemstones” with no connotation that their choice is any less valid.
 

Serg

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 21, 2002
Messages
2,453
We can be way too elitist.

I think we could help 50 times more people get a good enough diamond and setting at a considerable saving without getting 'enchanted' out of their money.
Garry, Andrew ,

With all my highest respect to your efforts I have not any good words for PS and HCA anymore .
Last years PS became very boring as an Ideal round cut, but it not perfect as an Ideal round cut. There are same advices for same vendors . There are nothing new on PS in last years, there are no any real knowledge from PS.
if it is elite then it degenerative elite.

PS lost the balance a several years ago and become very biased . If in 2000-2005 PS and HCA were similar phenomena for consumers as first IPhone , now PS and HCA would be old fashion a pushbutton phone again.

Ideal Forever approach and strong connections with same vendors can not work for the original PS idea .

PS lost so nice opportunity . I am very sorry.
 

Daisys and Diamonds

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
2,246
wow- you guy want to see elitist
you should see one particular Bruce Springsteen forum (not mine)
if you havn't seen to 100 plus concerts you dpnt count

people here are usually super friendly
although if hurt my feelings when someone said my grandmother's ER was sweet meaning small

ive seen some weird arguments where Stirling solver isnt regarded by some as fine jewlery and also 9 or 10 carot gold

but its all about an exchange of ideas and ive learnt heaps and now know some lovelly people
one day when i buy a honking big diamond i know who to ask for help
 

lissyflo

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 23, 2016
Messages
725
I think the problem is that helping the masses safely buy a diamond WITHOUT giving the over-the-top and complex advice is just not very interesting, and therefore PS won't keep people around for free to do it. We'd just be doing a quick search, picking a diamond, and sharing it - which isn't why most of us are here. If we wanted to just do a quick search, pick a diamond, and tell someone to buy it, we'd probably all be starting websites like diamondpro where we could earn money for referrals.

So yeah, I do kind of think PS is doing 99% of newbies a disservice, but I also think if PS concentrated on that 99%, they'd lose the regulars that enable the forum to continue due to whatever the forum equivalent of institutional knowledge is, which is what enables the forum to be actively useful to anyone, and interesting enough for anyone to stick around.

I also think if you are saying less than 1% of visitors sign up rather than less than 0.1% of visitors sign up, PS is doing pretty well in terms of conversion. Way, way, WAY more people will visit and leave than visit and read, and way, way, WAY more people will visit and read than visit and post, and way, way, WAY more people will visit and post than visit and stay. And that's totally normal for any internet site.

I DO think PSers could be more respectful if someone wants to work with their specific vendor/local jeweler, or wants a shape that isn't an RB, or wants something weird, or wants a specific brand that we maybe don't recommend, and could try to recommend stock settings way more than going custom. I've seen a lot of people having total meltdowns over custom lately because they jumped right into custom work when they were absolutely not ready for it, and moreover jumped right into custom work with a vendor who I love but who is really, really for those of us who want total creative control with no one else's vision interfering. And I think PS DEFINITELY did all those users a disservice, and not also those users but also the vendors, who have in several cases had to remake rings, due to what I think is no fault of their own. I don't think that if I were a jewelry maker, I would be so generous as to remake a ring for someone for no extra charge or at cost or even at a discount when the only reason the ring needs to be remade is that the customer did not know what they wanted.

AND ABSOLUTELY no one should EVER advise anyone to go outside their budget.

I spent a couple of years away from PS until coming back this summer - and honestly I found in the meantime the advice people are giving seems to have degraded. It's less personal, more technical/jargony, people are less often recommending "good enough" diamonds and instead getting increasingly dogmatic, stock settings are recommended MUCH less, the vendor pool has shrunk, and users are more frequently getting pushed outside their budgets. It is SIGNIFICANTLY more insular than it was a few years ago.

I don't know how to fix that. I think part of the cause is that a few of the posters who were most helpful and specifically most helpful in the ways that are currently missing have "gone pro." And they have not been replaced by others with that level of technical knowledge AND social skills AND empathy. Like I can help people pretty well with colored stones and fancies, I think, and with settings - but quite frankly, I don't wish to discuss the merits of Si1 over Si2 or clouds vs feathers or a 36.5 vs 36.6 crown angle or whatever all day, I'd literally rather roll myself right off the edge of a cliff because that at least would be interesting. I'm definitely more of a "good enough" person than a "it must be 100% perfect in every way" person, and PS needs more "good enough" people but also more "good enough" people WITH the technical knowledge, so that they can explain something like "this is good enough but this is why it might have decreased performance compared to a super ideal but this is why that may not matter to you."

Like I remember the day when people intentionally looked for GIA "Very Goods" that scored well on the HCA - something that we are absolutely told not to do nowadays, though I recall several very beautiful diamonds that fit that category.
Fantastic post - I couldn’t agree more. PS is certainly very different in flavour than when I first joined a few years ago. I think James Allen’s changes wiped out an easy way to suggest non-super ideal stones, and similarly the Enchanted Diamonds collapse scared people, leaving the super-ideal vendors as a safe, easily accessible source of great stones with predictable performance, and there’s a lot of comfort in knowing in advance what you’re getting when buying online. This all leaves ‘good enough’ as a much harder thing to find than before as you say, but it does seem like overkill sometimes to suggest super-ideals, especially when part of their premium is often driven by the future upgrade flexibility but 95% of the population outside of PS regulars will never upgrade.

I find the differences between rocky talk and the CS forum really interesting. CS seems to have much more emphasis on finding great looking but budget stones, and lots of the regulars talk about a stone being great for their needs/budget but not an ‘ideal’ specimen, which is all quite different from the rocky talk emphasis. I’ve often wondered whether that’s driven by the personalities of the people who happen to be regular CS posters or whether it’s an inherent difference between diamonds and coloured stones.
 

AV_

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 5, 2018
Messages
2,883
.

It may well mean that the forum is so good, no questions are left to ask.

-

There certainly were more numbers & charts around back in the good old days. This place has more taste, fewer numbers [the long story got abridged to a list of brackets ,( - like brands tell of themselves, is this forum one?] & the rest of the world might have changed too. It is good fun to be asked about diamonds, including 'what do you mean'.
 
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AV_

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 5, 2018
Messages
2,883
@Serg I think you are talking of convention. H&A is a good one. I feel that the language of ray tracing was important & it mattered that all the talking was not balking [at other cut conventions], but making news as rounds with precise contrast patterns came in by way of history. If the forum could drive things, I do not know - I have missed a few years while AV & its ilk started. If putting current taste in ray tracing terms works, this can be tested by doing it again.
 
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Paul-Antwerp

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Sep 2, 2002
Messages
2,838
Garry,

You are offering an interesting point, but I think the way you conclude your questioning is off. You end with the desire to help consumers get a 'good enough' diamond and setting, which I think is not the real desire of these consumers.

I am of the definite belief that consumers wanting to buy a diamond, whether for engagement or for some other purpose, really want it to be very nice, not good enough, with most attention to perceivable Fire and Scintillation, somewhat higher on the desire-scale than Brightness even.

The industry at large fails at satisfying this basic consumer-desire, rather directing the public to almost imperceptible differences in Color and Clarity, even in Carat weight. Instead of considering what the consumer desires most, Carat weight, Color and Clarity are communicated as most important choices, leaving what the consumer desires most, Cut quality, as needing to be 'good enough'. Making matters worse, consumers are educated by the industry to consider real minima in these 3 categories, while a minimum-level in Cut-quality is talked down, 'good enough' becoming that undefined minimum.

On the basis of that belief in consumer-desires, PS is not elitist, though it does not succeed in truly stressing what is most important to consumers.

If anything, PS is not ambitious enough, failing to clarify the over-attention on the 4 C's on a report while also explaining that Fire and Scintillation are impossible to judge online and the advice regarding Cut-quality is thus limited to Brightness only.

If, on the other hand, you think that 'good enough' is the true consumer-desire, and that all they want is to simply score a diamond quickly, you may be right. I sincerely hope that you are wrong, though.

Live long,
 

Rfisher

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 19, 2013
Messages
1,740
I think we could help 50 times more people get a good enough diamond and setting at a considerable saving without getting 'enchanted' out of their money.
Would this be tied into the possibly still being considered “Pricescope Guaranty” program that was suggested earlier by admin?
Or is this a thought provoking question looking to reform current PSers participation in the threads of those looking for help in sourcing?
 

soxfan

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 20, 2013
Messages
4,428
I don't think so at all. I REALLY wish I had come here for diamond parameters before I bought my first K color "very good" cut stone. Not only could I have had an ideal cut for the same money, I might not have had any inclination to upgrade.

Mind-clean is a real thing, and a lot of posters here can find people diamonds that sparkle far and away above most of the stones worn by the general public. Not only do the new members get an ideal cut diamond, it is also "mind-clean" so they don't spend years second-guessing themselves. We see a lot of newbies come here with that problem.

I think lurkers/new members just need to put in the time and read over the threads for a few hours and educate themselves. PS'ers do a great job recommending great stones for ANY budget- so I don't think that qualifies at elitist. Just my two cents:)
 

OoohShiny

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 25, 2014
Messages
6,669
If anything, PS is not ambitious enough, failing to clarify the over-attention on the 4 C's on a report while also explaining that Fire and Scintillation are impossible to judge online and the advice regarding Cut-quality is thus limited to Brightness only.
This part seems to suggest that the hard work that @Serg is doing to quantify the elusive qualities of Fire and Scintillation and 'beauty' should be given a higher priority and more exposure/promotion (which I would agree with) :)
 

TODiamonds

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jul 27, 2019
Messages
260
Garry,

You are offering an interesting point, but I think the way you conclude your questioning is off. You end with the desire to help consumers get a 'good enough' diamond and setting, which I think is not the real desire of these consumers.

I am of the definite belief that consumers wanting to buy a diamond, whether for engagement or for some other purpose, really want it to be very nice, not good enough, with most attention to perceivable Fire and Scintillation, somewhat higher on the desire-scale than Brightness even.

The industry at large fails at satisfying this basic consumer-desire, rather directing the public to almost imperceptible differences in Color and Clarity, even in Carat weight. Instead of considering what the consumer desires most, Carat weight, Color and Clarity are communicated as most important choices, leaving what the consumer desires most, Cut quality, as needing to be 'good enough'. Making matters worse, consumers are educated by the industry to consider real minima in these 3 categories, while a minimum-level in Cut-quality is talked down, 'good enough' becoming that undefined minimum.

On the basis of that belief in consumer-desires, PS is not elitist, though it does not succeed in truly stressing what is most important to consumers.

If anything, PS is not ambitious enough, failing to clarify the over-attention on the 4 C's on a report while also explaining that Fire and Scintillation are impossible to judge online and the advice regarding Cut-quality is thus limited to Brightness only.

If, on the other hand, you think that 'good enough' is the true consumer-desire, and that all they want is to simply score a diamond quickly, you may be right. I sincerely hope that you are wrong, though.

Live long,
The delta between your position and Garry's is that your product/service is catered to the needs of the top 1% (and by that I don't necessarily mean solely financially). All of your points are geared towards diamond enthusiasts and wealthy individuals. I can tell you probably over 95% of average users out there don't even know fire/scintillation/brightness. They don't have the time or desire to absorb the knowledge and education that you are offering. Their biggest constraints are budget and time. They have busy lives. CBI/WF/HPD are niche businesses. Fact. And that's perfectly fine - not saying you are doing anything wrong. You are going after a specific clientele and you're doing a damn fine job of it. But you shouldn't assume what you're offering is what the "consumer" really desires. Let's be clear about how we are defining "consumer".

This is why BN and JA dwarves you guys in size and brand awareness within the context of the broader consumer market. Because they are catering to the desires of the masses - price, convenience, simplicity.

Garry is exploring whether it makes sense to broaden his product/service so that he can better penetrate the other 99% out there. From a business perspective, it makes complete sense that he's asking the question.
 
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JrJ

Shiny_Rock
Joined
May 30, 2018
Messages
133
I just want to say that I am sure many just don’t want make an account and discuss anything at all. I have been stalking PS since 2006-7ish (maybe earlier) during my first engagement. I took the advise and picked out my own diamond. I didn’t make an account until a year ago or sooner? And this was after I have bought quite a few of my own diamonds with PS advise, with literally no contact with PS members. Some people just don’t want to socialize.
 

whitewave

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
8,811
The delta between your position and Garry's is that your product/service is catered to the needs of the top 1% (and by that I don't necessarily mean solely financially). All of your points are geared towards diamond enthusiasts and wealthy individuals. I can tell you probably over 95% of average users out there don't even know fire/scintillation/brightness. They don't have the time or desire to absorb the knowledge and education that you are offering. Their biggest constraints are budget and time. They have busy lives. CBI/WF/HPD are niche businesses. Fact. And that's perfectly fine - not saying you are doing anything wrong. You are going after a specific clientele and you're doing a damn fine job of it. But you shouldn't assume what you're offering is what the "consumer" really desires. Let's be clear about how we are defining "consumer".

This is why BN and JA dwarves you guys in size and brand awareness within the context of the broader consumer market. Because they are catering to the desires of the masses - price, convenience, simplicity.

Garry is exploring whether it makes sense to broaden his product/service so that he can better penetrate the other 99% out there. From a business perspective, it makes complete sense that he's asking the question.
Therein lies an interesting point. How many diamonds should someone look at before they know and understand what they want?

Turns out, I’m a fire, scintillation and brightness person. I didn’t know that until after I came to PS and decided to buy a small CBI to see what the fuss was. Hubba hubba.

This is also why I think strongly that women should be in charge of buying their own diamonds. One, it takes pressure off the dude and two, she could take her time and explore what she wanted: whether that be a giant frozen spit ball or whatever.

But also, my new (2012) and upgraded ER is an asscher, so when I finally bought what I wanted, it wasn’t a round brilliant.

(But then I realized one can have two ERs lol so I have the asscher and an upgradable .64 CBI solitaire).
 
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