shape
carat
color
clarity

Are we too elitist & doing 99% of newbies a disservice?

Are good at helping enough newbie buyers?


  • Total voters
    118

Bluery

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 30, 2014
Messages
45
I joined in 2010, posted my e-ring and forgot about it, then again in 2014 when I was curious about upgrading, and again forgot about it until recently. I was never previously very active, more of a lurker trying to gain info. I feel new, but I feel like the tone was more inclusive before. I was told just 2 days ago here that my .86 ct mined diamond was hardly even a diamond, and my upgrade, a lab diamond, gets treated like an unmentionable except in a small corner here that feels like a time out. There are countless threads telling me it will soon be worthless and comparing it to copies of the real thing. Yeah, PS is elitist.
 

MissGotRocks

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 23, 2005
Messages
16,266
There is no way to guess who or when people decide to join PS. There is also no way to determine if a diamond is ‘good enough’ for the average consumer. This is an educational sight and there is as much or as little as one decides to spend on it. There are general guidelines to follow in terms of choosing a diamond but there is also the caveat of GIA rounding the angles. Should we just avoid saying that or should we try to provide as much information as possible? Can you assign a dollar value to an upgrade or buy back policy? No, but we can certainly site the heartache of those that bought and cannot access it and the beauty of those that use it over and over. People come to question if their diamond was a good choice (probably because they have some doubt) or maybe just to see if they got a good deal. If they ask, they generally get an honest answer. What would be the point of not being honest about it? Super ideals are not for everyone nor is their price point. Doesn’t mean they can’t be suggested as an alternative nor does that make PS elitist. It just means that PS is first and foremost an educational sight with as much transparency as possible. Dumbing down criteria or choices serves no one in my opinion.
 

whitewave

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
12,331
I joined in 2010, posted my e-ring and forgot about it, then again in 2014 when I was curious about upgrading, and again forgot about it until recently. I was never previously very active, more of a lurker trying to gain info. I feel new, but I feel like the tone was more inclusive before. I was told just 2 days ago here that my .86 ct mined diamond was hardly even a diamond, and my upgrade, a lab diamond, gets treated like an unmentionable except in a small corner here that feels like a time out. There are countless threads telling me it will soon be worthless and comparing it to copies of the real thing. Yeah, PS is elitist.

That was a bad thread and I’m sorry the apparent troll got you.
 

Niel

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 23, 2012
Messages
20,044
I had a thread about this a while ago. People tend to tell people what they want instead of educate buyers of what they need to know to decide what they want.
 

Mrs_Strizzle

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jun 14, 2018
Messages
1,567
"but I think for a lot of people what we see on PS is larger than what we see in real life.

I’m now starting to worry it’ll be too big for my actual life of working in an office and taking care of probably too many animals."
[/QUOTE]

Much to my surprise, I too have been feeling this way recently about my new diamond. It is bigger that everyone's in my life, and I have found myself being slightly embarrassed when they have noticed it. Hubby would be shocked to hear this as I daily wear my 6 ct sapphire and love talking about it to anyone who brings it up. But I think diamonds have a different reputation.

Sorry for the thread jack. But I guess I can say that PS definitely can influence its readers in ways that haven't registered to me until recently. Mostly good by setting the bar high, but I can see how it can be quite intimidating to others.
 

Batgirl76

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Aug 7, 2018
Messages
252
As more of a newbie, and a very analytical person, I appreciate the exacting advice from PSers.

I also find most folks here are very nice, and I do think they take into consideration the much more limited budgets of others looking for a diamond.

What I don’t understand though, is the almost cult-like stance against beautiful lab grown diamonds. I think it goes beyond elitism.

Are some of you really employees of the Diamond Producers Association or related mined diamond companies posing as consumers? Lol.
 

TODiamonds

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jul 27, 2019
Messages
260
Are some of you really employees of the Diamond Producers Association or related mined diamond companies posing as consumers? Lol.

No - but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the regulars here receive preferential treatment from the online vendors that they're constantly pushing.
 

whitewave

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
12,331
As more of a newbie, and a very analytical person, I appreciate the exacting advice from PSers.

I also find most folks here are very nice, and I do think they take into consideration the much more limited budgets of others looking for a diamond.

What I don’t understand though, is the almost cult-like stance against beautiful lab grown diamonds. I think it goes beyond elitism.

Are some of you really employees of the Diamond Producers Association or related mined diamond companies posing as consumers? Lol.

I think the legit concern is that there is currently no market resale value for MMD, which may be irrelevant for consumers. As Kenny says, people vary. I don’t know of any who have trade up policies either.

These issues could change as the market bears or not
 
L

lydial

Guest
Here is some behind the scenes psychology of a PS'er (me): I am a data freak. I also adore beautiful things - art, nature, buildings, jewelry, rocks (I collect rocks since I was a little girl). I also like knowing techy details. I guess because of coming here and learning about diamonds I became a diamond snob because I sold my diamond to be able to purchase a CBI and I just love it and I am planning on another CBI project. But I also love my imperfect diamonds and other jewels including a lot of crafty silver jewelry (again: to me this is art). It is not all about being elitist and showing off. My husband feels the same way about beer and only drinks fancy small batch beers because he just loves it; my dad prefers a local lager but has to drive a specific brand of car. Some people are like this with wine. Some people are like this with tractors and snowmobiles... you get my drift. With some things I love knowing that what I have is the best I can have (jewelry); other things I really do not care (clothes). I work hard for my money (as do most people) and spend on things that make me feel happy, as well as saving for a happy retirement. Diamonds for consumers are like every other consumable: (cars, beers, wines, homes, clothes etc) - some people are OK with just having the basics, some people desire and work to have the best, and for many people it depends on the item. It is nice for there to be a forum for those of us interested in having the best diamonds the world has to offer to come and learn and share to help our dreams become reality.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
9,707
Cool thread Garry!
I think we’re doing as good a job as can be expected.
For my taste, discussion can become to technical- but clearly some readers like that.
The ability for tradespeople to air alternate viewpoints creates interest and educates readers.
There’s not a lot of places quite like this online.
 

MissGotRocks

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 23, 2005
Messages
16,266
No - but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the regulars here receive preferential treatment from the online vendors that they're constantly pushing.

What do you mean by preferential treatment? To my knowledge, we all pay the same prices as anyone else does. The vendors I have dealt with have always provided top hat service but to suggest that we receive anything different is presumptuous and without merit.
 

whitewave

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
12,331
What do you mean by preferential treatment? To my knowledge, we all pay the same prices as anyone else does. The vendors I have dealt with have always provided top hat service but to suggest that we receive anything different is presumptuous and without merit.

Obviously, I took that to mean discounts in exchange for pushing the vendor, which is shilling.
 

Batgirl76

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Aug 7, 2018
Messages
252
The Diamond Producers Association would be banned? How?
 

rockysalamander

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 20, 2016
Messages
5,105
Diamonds are inherently elitist. Not everyone can or wants to afford them, they are superfluous if you are struggling to put food on your plate or pay for private school because that is all that is available in the rural area of the country you originate from. Only ~7.5% of the world's population has wealth over $100,000 USD. Anyone below that line is unlikely to be looking here -- some may, but let's say I give you another 1% -- it is still only ~8.5% of the world population that likely has the kind of income to buy a diamond for engagement. So, we are already a very tiny portion of the world's population. Then, you have the PS members and folks that may happen upon this forum. From my time here, there are many from the US, UK and Australia (no disrespect to our many folks from elsewhere). That drives cultural expectations and trends (being from the US..bigger is better is the stereotype and our culture is invading many part of the world).

In any case...as I'm in my mid-40s and my grandmother was the jeweler/stone buyer who taught me...I learned to judge and buy diamonds by my eyes in person. But, the world has moved on to large online services and posters using online sources or posting technical data from a B&M. We can't use our eyes in these cases. In cases when we can (fancies, super budget options), we certainly go down that path. But, we are spending another's money and will be more cautious and risk-averse. We will eliminate risk inclusions, even if they may be ok on that particular stone. We eliminate black crystals because its hard to know without the stone in hand how bad they will be. We prefer ideal proportions over 60/60, because there is no magic formula for 60/60. We won't suggest vendors, out of hand, who don't have good online imaging and inventory (exceptions for the rare and unusual stones). We are looking for something that we think will meet the poster's brief AND be a sure-thing. I'll take a chance on a stone for myself of more experienced posters because I know when it comes, I/they can rely on my/their own eyes. Most posters don't have that skill and luxury. Add to the mix that the rough out there is terrible in many cases. Just 2 years ago I could find a SI2 worth pursuing in a few hour's efforts. No more. I struggle to find worthy SI1 now.

We post sure-things for a range of reasons, but some of that is to manage the frustration level and desires of the poster. Do they want to go technical or not? I recall one thread of an Aussie poster who myself and @diamondseeker2006 got to a diamond and setting in about 12 posts. They didn't want technical, just a sure-thing and speed. Other posters will waffle for weeks and miss out on many many good, budget, and "really good" options and, yes, I've been known to just tell them to go to a super-ideal and be done with it. Finally, the threshold for a super-ideal has narrowed significantly in my time here, making it far less of a stretch than just a few years ago.

Relative to preferential treatment stated by @TODiamonds ...I'd ask for your evidence. Not in an accusatory way, but just as a science-fact-driven person that I am. If you've seen something of a problem, then you can discuss here or simply let the mods know. I've seen no evidence on an individual member basis. I would expect that buying multiple items from a vendor garner's its own special treatment. Also, if you buy something the vendor is motivated to sell. You get better treatment. That is the same now as it has been for hundreds of years.

I would, however, be shocked if posting a thread here did not garner more attention from the vendors (even some of those that are not very active will respond when there is criticism or problems). That, I feel, is an equal playing field for all posters and long-time members. This is in contrast to when I go to my grandmother's friends and old business associates -- all whom give me a 'family' discount for anything for me personally. That is old-school connections at work. I don't see that kind of "family discount' among buyers of PS-active vendors. It is sometimes a real thing if a PS member is selling to another PS member -- they get a better price or other benefits -- very common in any "club."

In any case....I'll take the question as a reminder to provide a range of options when the poster seeks them, to pause and educate. I still have @Niel or @yssie (can't recall who said it) in my head with "your preferences are not their preferences" every time I react to a stone.
 
Last edited:

MissGotRocks

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 23, 2005
Messages
16,266
The Diamond Producers Association would be banned? How?

No, individual consumers or specific vendors would be banned if they were found to be offering discounts to members for pushing their particular product.
 

Paul-Antwerp

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Sep 2, 2002
Messages
2,859
The delta between your position and Garry's is that your product/service is catered to the needs of the top 1% (and by that I don't necessarily mean solely financially). All of your points are geared towards diamond enthusiasts and wealthy individuals. I can tell you probably over 95% of average users out there don't even know fire/scintillation/brightness. They don't have the time or desire to absorb the knowledge and education that you are offering. Their biggest constraints are budget and time. They have busy lives. CBI/WF/HPD are niche businesses. Fact. And that's perfectly fine - not saying you are doing anything wrong. You are going after a specific clientele and you're doing a damn fine job of it. But you shouldn't assume what you're offering is what the "consumer" really desires. Let's be clear about how we are defining "consumer".

This is why BN and JA dwarves you guys in size and brand awareness within the context of the broader consumer market. Because they are catering to the desires of the masses - price, convenience, simplicity.

Garry is exploring whether it makes sense to broaden his product/service so that he can better penetrate the other 99% out there. From a business perspective, it makes complete sense that he's asking the question.

Hi TODiamonds,

I did not post anything about our product or service. I posted about consumer desires and satisfying these desires.

My belief is that consumers have a desire to purchase diamonds, because they wish to enjoy wearing it or seeing it worn every day, day-after-day enjoying fantastic Sparkle and Scintillation.

I do not believe any consumer sets out his or her journey wanting to satisfy certain stats in the following 3 C's, Carat weight, Color (as graded by the lab) and Clarity (as graded by the lab), to then see what is 'good enough' in probable Brightness in combination with his or her budget. Most of the times, it is only when they start researching, visiting jewelers and so on that they are fed with the system of the 4 C's, where one of the C's is hardly ever properly explained.

With an entire industry continuing to feed these 3 C's as the solution, that industry is missing completely the target of consumer-satisfaction.

Trust me, you stating that 95% of average users don't even know fire/scintillation/brightness is incorrect. The smallest child can see this and express preferences. One does not necessarily need to be able to explain it. Simply seeing it is sufficient. And once seen, it cannot be unseen. If the first question to a potential diamond consumer, starting his search, were 'Do you wish your future diamond to sparkle like crazy?', I bet that over 95% would answer positively. That essentially is my point about consumer-satisfaction.

Live long
 

whitewave

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
12,331
Hi TODiamonds,

I did not post anything about our product or service. I posted about consumer desires and satisfying these desires.

My belief is that consumers have a desire to purchase diamonds, because they wish to enjoy wearing it or seeing it worn every day, day-after-day enjoying fantastic Sparkle and Scintillation.

I do not believe any consumer sets out his or her journey wanting to satisfy certain stats in the following 3 C's, Carat weight, Color (as graded by the lab) and Clarity (as graded by the lab), to then see what is 'good enough' in probable Brightness in combination with his or her budget. Most of the times, it is only when they start researching, visiting jewelers and so on that they are fed with the system of the 4 C's, where one of the C's is hardly ever properly explained.

With an entire industry continuing to feed these 3 C's as the solution, that industry is missing completely the target of consumer-satisfaction.

Trust me, you stating that 95% of average users don't even know fire/scintillation/brightness is incorrect. The smallest child can see this and express preferences. One does not necessarily need to be able to explain it. Simply seeing it is sufficient. And once seen, it cannot be unseen. If the first question to a potential diamond consumer, starting his search, were 'Do you wish your future diamond to sparkle like crazy?', I bet that over 95% would answer positively. That essentially is my point about consumer-satisfaction.

Live long

I love this as a question: do you want your diamond to sparkle like crazy. I’m going to start asking this.

Now I’m wondering in my head which questions I could ask newbies to clarify what they prioritize: clear? Bright? Sparkle? Lively? Big? How big? Budget? Showpiece (cause these people are certainly represented here) or comparable to friends and family?

Etc
 

Batgirl76

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Aug 7, 2018
Messages
252
A pre-owned 2.38 ct IGI certified lab grown diamond just sold on eBay 2 days ago for $8,000. It was the center stone in a wedding ring set.

Just because PSers and tradespeople on PS keep repeating that MMD have no resale value doesn’t make it true.
 

whitewave

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
12,331

It’s back up for sale unless this seller has a stock of pre owned 2.38 carat lab grown IGI diamonds.

EDITED: it’s definitely the same stone and listing. Might be interesting to watch and see if it ever sells and if the sale goes through.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
9,707
I think part of the “fuel”, for me, is the differences we experience. The majority of buyers think an RBC “sparkles like crazy” and it’s easy to make a case that RBC is the pinnacle. There’s not a lot of debate there as the formula for achieving the ”best cut RBC” is known
But fancy shapes are also very attractive to many consumers- and there are (thankfully) no set parameters for most Fancy Shapes.
Even if it’s proven to them that an RBC is brighter than an Emerald Cut ( for example) there’s something about emerald cuts that they find more appealing. So there’s still plenty of “fodder”
@batgirl- anyone who claims to know where the market for MMDs will go is making a guess. And in this case I don’t believe tradespeople are more informed in this regard.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
33,217
Newbies to PS vary.
Some want all the technical lessons. I did.
Others don't.
To each their own.

The thread title is, "Are we too elitist & doing 99% of newbies a disservice?"
I'd answer an emphatic, no.

First of all, 99%? ... of course not.
The actual percentage who do not want to spend time learning is unknowable, but it can't be anywhere near 99%.
The question, as phrased, is unanswerable.
A broken poll question means poll results are meaningless.

Second, Elitist? ... of course not.
How can good education ever be elite?
Unfortunately in my country, America, reason, education, even intelligence itself is increasingly poopooed by growing masses ... look at the moron they wanted for the white house. :nono:

BTW, PS is not all good education and advice; there are plenty of regulars here to give the advice, "All that matters is you love it". :rolleyes:
I could not disagree more.
Better light performance looks better.
Diamond material is expensive so few are cut to perform well, but the masses don't know this.
PS and Garry's HCA are a godsend that result in more people getting well-performing diamonds.

PS's education is a good thing; it results in getting a better product for your money.
Clearly some people can't be bothered with education, some even consider eduction itself to be elitist.
Fine.
Let 'em click out of PS and go to Zales, Robbins Bros, Kay, and Walmart to overpay for frozen spit.

Please folks, let's not dumb down PS.
 
Last edited:

distracts

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 11, 2011
Messages
6,131
Banned? No one would know who they are.

The mods have banned people before for this on multiple occasions. Just because you don’t see it happening doesn’t mean that they’re not watching for this and banning people.
 

xxxxxx

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 6, 2019
Messages
819

It’s back up for sale unless this seller has a stock of pre owned 2.38 carat lab grown IGI diamonds.

EDITED: it’s definitely the same stone and listing. Might be interesting to watch and see if it ever sells and if the sale goes through.

I'm all for MMDs but this one is way overpriced. Especialy for a J Color.
 

soxfan

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 20, 2013
Messages
4,814
A pre-owned 2.38 ct IGI certified lab grown diamond just sold on eBay 2 days ago for $8,000. It was the center stone in a wedding ring set.

Just because PSers and tradespeople on PS keep repeating that MMD have no resale value doesn’t make it true.

And now it's relisted for $5000.
 

Texas Leaguer

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
3,760
I can see how some PS postings may seem elitist. But there are two things to remember. Many people who participate, especially the regular posters, are very passionate and knowledgeable about diamonds and they have developed strong preferences in many cases. Too, this is a completely open forum so you get all kinds of people. Those with very good bedside manners and some not so much.

As has happened with most products, the internet disrupted the diamond business. The availability of information led consumers online to learn about diamonds, and it was a particular boon to those consumers who really wanted to know the details before they plunked down a big bundle of cash. Satisfying this growing demand for information led AGS into light performance research and cut quality grading, and eventually led GIA to attach an overall cut grade to their reports (rounds) which they had been reluctant to do for decades. As a consequence of wider consumer awareness about the importance of cut quality, manufacturers improved the overall quality of their production, at least in rounds.

E-commerce also altered the landscape for merchants and led to greatly increased competition. Consumers have been rewarded with sharper pricing and new benefits like trade-up and buy-back guarantees that few retailers had ever offered. So when posters recommend that newbies factor these things into their buying decisions, they are providing relevant information that the visitor may not be aware of.

In a sense, catering to people who want to know the technical details about diamonds is one of the forum’s main reasons for being. Help with cost/benefit analysis is inextricably related. So it is understandable that the opinions posted here are often strong and technical. And that combination could certainly rub some visitors the wrong way. But are people really coming here just to get a quick recommendation on decent diamond that doesn’t cost a lot? Or do most people come because they care very much about quality and want to make sure they are getting the best their money can buy?

No doubt there are shoppers of many stripes coming to priscescope. But let’s give consumers credit. They are pretty good at sorting out the advice and opinions they receive here, and making a decision based on their particular situation. And many may prefer just to lurk and absorb that assortment of viewpoints in order to formulate their own plan.

And in case anyone is concerned that everyone visiting pricescope is being convinced to buy super ideals, I can attest that they are not. Sadly.
 
Be a part of the community Get 3 HCA Results
Top