Are we too elitist & doing 99% of newbies a disservice?

[SandyinAnaheim]

... Pricescope should serve a large group of people. The tiny percentage who choose to register could be greatly increased not only giving technical advice, but by giving correctly constructed, but less complex advice and assistance to the majority who can't digest the science of diamonds, but want to buy one or more for other reasons.

I agree, but then where would our resident post-padding, self-important, know-it-all "experts" discharge their need to parrot things they've read but don't really understand??

...Anytime I bring it up or try to save someone a few bucks by offering a practical solution, I get crucified by the loyalists here. I've been thrown under the bus in countless threads just because I'm new here or because I go against the well entrenched PS view of spending way more for the branded stones...

You make it sound as if you're being victimized by PSers. BECAUSE you are "new" here, I wouldn't take it too personally that your opinions/choices aren't being validated and applauded by those who've been here helping others for much longer and likely have more experience.

...Truth be told, PS is not a very inviting place for newbies. It's very cult-like with a "you're either with us or against us" vibe. And yes - PS is very elitist and many of the folks come across as arrogant, especially to new members who haven't been around long. The only reason I tolerate it and hang around is to learn from the few knowledgeable and down to earth dudes remaining like Garry, sledge, John P, Wink, etc....

I disagree completely with this section of your post. I found PS after having bought a beautiful $15k GIA XXX ring from Costco that was a complete dud in real life. I visited multiple jewelers trying to learn why this certification/pedigree that I thought guaranteed a performer, was a lie. I found the information I was looking for very easily on PS by using the archives and asking a few questions.

The reality is, as @Johnbt alluded to, not everyone want to spend months to learn about diamonds or the math of how the magic happens. It is overwhelming to most consumers and they just don't want to waste their hard-earned money on an uneducated choice, like I did. No one pushed super-ideals on me, but after my experience and with what I know now, I will recommend super-ideals for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is trade or buy-back policies. I've seen countless people on PS buy a diamond at their local retailer without doing their due diligence, learn a little bit about diamonds and realize what they have, and then have no recourse as the vendor doesn't stand behind their product. That generally doesn't happen with most super-ideal vendors. Don't get me wrong, I have plenty of non-ideal diamonds that I enjoy and wear a lot, but they just don't compare to my super-ideals. If knowing and appreciating the difference between a good diamond and a superb diamond makes one an elitist, then I guess I've been one for years without knowing it.

 

[yssie]

I don’t think PS is elitist enough.

I think all RT posters should be required to pass a baseline “diamonds and industry 101”... Something similar for techinal CS posters. A badge could signify which posters have taken this baseline. Their posts will - should - be weighted more highly by newcomers looking for assistance. Every single RT “prosumer” should know what kimberlite is. Every single RT “prosumer” should be able to label the major and minor facets on a round brilliant, and explain what a princess chevron is. Every single RT “prosumer” should know what the major labs are, and should have some awareness that there are reputable outfits besides GIA and AGS. Every single RT “prosumer” should be able to have an intelligent conversation about the history of diamond discovery and mining. Every single RT “prosumer” should be able to explain terms like “critical angle” and “subtend”. Every single RT “prosumer” should have a shortlist of non-PS whitepapers, websites, videos, articles, other resources to use and post as references - and they should be required to post them in justification of their assertions. Every single RT “prosumer” should know when to say I don’t know, but here’s how we can find out more.

PS is an echo chamber. A newcomer who spends a couple of months here without seeking any other exposure to this industry will come to believe that buying a diamond without an ASET is impossible, that that wretched cheat sheet of RB proportions is gospel, that a well-cut J faces up like an H. They’ll internalise and parrot a set of PSisms - and when lots of people do this all at the same time those PSisms become #Facts that yet more people don’t bother to think about or verify with their own eyes. This isn’t a problem that’s unique to PS - it’s a trap that this medium of the internet forum makes it easy to fall into... How many people who post technical advice can actually explain their recommendations? Rhetorical question - the answer is “not enough”.

In my opinion being a consumer should not be sufficient qualification to participate in an advisory capacity here - we should be demanding educated consumers. And that education cannot come from PS alone.

 

[SandyinAnaheim]

...Women notice size and usually have a specific size they desire, so I don’t agree when so many say to sacrifice size for a super ideal over a perfectly lovely ideal....

I am a woman and would never sacrifice cut for size. It sounds like you're trying to overlay your personally held beliefs/opinions on what other individuals may want or value. As I stated in my previous post, and as @yssie more eloquently stated above, maybe being "new" here should slow people down when it comes to recommendations.

For the most part, newbies recommending stones to other newbies is much like taking financial or medical advice from teenagers.....

 

[yssie]

I don’t think PS is elitist enough.

I think all RT posters should be required to pass a baseline “diamonds and industry 101”... Something similar for techinal CS posters. A badge could signify which posters have taken this baseline. Their posts will - should - be weighted more highly by newcomers looking for assistance. Every single RT “prosumer” should know what kimberlite is. Every single RT “prosumer” should be able to label the major and minor facets on a round brilliant, and explain what a princess chevron is. Every single RT “prosumer” should know what the major labs are, and should have some awareness that there are reputable outfits besides GIA and AGS. Every single RT “prosumer” should be able to have an intelligent conversation about the history of diamond discovery and mining. Every single RT “prosumer” should be able to explain terms like “critical angle” and “subtend”. Every single RT “prosumer” should have a shortlist of non-PS whitepapers, websites, videos, articles, other resources to use and post as references - and they should be required to post them in justification of their assertions. Every single RT “prosumer” should know when to say I don’t know, but here’s how we can find out more.

PS is an echo chamber. A newcomer who spends a couple of months here without seeking any other exposure to this industry will come to believe that buying a diamond without an ASET is impossible, that that wretched cheat sheet of RB proportions is gospel, that a well-cut J faces up like an H. They’ll internalise and parrot a set of PSisms - and when lots of people do this all at the same time those PSisms become #Facts that yet more people don’t bother to think about or verify with their own eyes. This isn’t a problem that’s unique to PS - it’s a trap that this medium of the internet forum makes it easy to fall into... How many people who post technical advice can actually explain their recommendations? Rhetorical question - the answer is “not enough”.

In my opinion being a consumer should not be sufficient qualification to participate in an advisory capacity here - we should be demanding educated consumers. And that education cannot come from PS alone.

I realize that what I’m proposing is radical, invasive, and non-inclusive, and will lead to a sharp decline in number of RT regulars. However, if we can devise a fair prerequisite that reflects a baseline knowledge and background, the quality of contributions will skyrocket. One of the reasons RT regulars leave is the sheer tiresomeness of babysitting other well-meaning but ignorant “advisors” - the recent thread wherein a newcomer in Hong Kong was told by several PSers that IGI is worthless and to stick to GIA and AGSL only is a fantastic example.

I think it will also compel new prosumer hopefuls into wanting to earn that badge and become part of that prestigious group... and in a few months we’ll have a much, much more disciplined, open-minded, and objective prosumer force than we currently evince.

 

[SouthernElle]

Sacrificing cut for size between super ideal and ideal isn’t the same as super ideal for a poorly cut diamond. I also never said EVERYBODY. But after moving around the country over the past 13 years and meeting hundreds of married women in the upper middle class demographic, I can name a handful who upgraded or expressed desire to upgrade. PS doesn’t exactly represent real world demographics. And recommendations are simply that, recommendations. I never act like what I recommend is the gospel. But when non “newbies“ seem to ALWAYS recommend super ideals and you can tell the OP isn’t wanting to budge on size, sorry if I want to help them find possible options that are cut well and the size they want. I used the information gathered here to find a diamond I absolutely adore and performs very well, so I’d have to imagine there are others like me out there.

 

[Karl_K]

I don’t think PS is elitist enough.

I think all RT posters should be required to pass a baseline “diamonds and industry 101”... Something similar for techinal CS posters. A badge could signify which posters have taken this baseline. Their posts will - should - be weighted more highly by newcomers looking for assistance. Every single RT “prosumer” should know what kimberlite is. Every single RT “prosumer” should be able to label the major and minor facets on a round brilliant, and explain what a princess chevron is. Every single RT “prosumer” should know what the major labs are, and should have some awareness that there are reputable outfits besides GIA and AGS. Every single RT “prosumer” should be able to have an intelligent conversation about the history of diamond discovery and mining. Every single RT “prosumer” should be able to explain terms like “critical angle” and “subtend”. Every single RT “prosumer” should have a shortlist of non-PS whitepapers, websites, videos, articles, other resources to use and post as references - and they should be required to post them in justification of their assertions. Every single RT “prosumer” should know when to say I don’t know, but here’s how we can find out more.

PS is an echo chamber. A newcomer who spends a couple of months here without seeking any other exposure to this industry will come to believe that buying a diamond without an ASET is impossible, that that wretched cheat sheet of RB proportions is gospel, that a well-cut J faces up like an H. They’ll internalise and parrot a set of PSisms - and when lots of people do this all at the same time those PSisms become #Facts that yet more people don’t bother to think about or verify with their own eyes. This isn’t a problem that’s unique to PS - it’s a trap that this medium of the internet forum makes it easy to fall into... How many people who post technical advice can actually explain their recommendations? Rhetorical question - the answer is “not enough”.

In my opinion being a consumer should not be sufficient qualification to participate in an advisory capacity here - we should be demanding educated consumers. And that education cannot come from PS alone.

Such a system would have 2-3 people who would even bother and it would not be the people who you want to be advisors who end up left.

I would never join such a board.

Fact is dysfunctional as it is PS works, 1000s helped probably closer to a million plus helped over the years and has outlived many other boards.
Honestly I hate that there is even a prosumer guidelines pinned thread.
How many other diamond boards are going strong after 19 years with a number of posters still here over 15 years of time here?

 

[yssie]

Such a system would have 2-3 people who would even bother and it would not be the people who you want to be advisors who end up left.

I would never join such a board.

Fact is dysfunctional as it is PS works, 1000s helped probably closer to a million plus helped over the years and has outlived many other boards.
Honestly I hate that there is even a prosumer guidelines pinned thread.
How many other diamond boards are going strong after 19 years with a number of posters still here over 15 years of time here?

Edited for snark suppression.

Just because an idea worked well in the past doesn’t prime it for success through all incarnations of the future.

@Karl_K, you are very wrong about people not wanting to join public fora where contributions are moderated. I know you’re in tech. Open source is now universally acknowledged as the most effective development model. Anyone can participate, but all contributors’ contributions are code reviewed by acknowledged experts before they’re accepted into project zeitgeist. And millions upon millions of people willingly contribute to open source software... the refusal to blindly accept any and all contributions is a valued part of the OS development workflow.

I’m norm proposing RT response reviews! I am, however, proposing that PS frontloads that requirement of minimum experience and understanding of our project space. And just like open source software communities have already proven - enthusiasts ALWAYS want to be part of well-regarded communities of expertise.

 

[amoline]

PS doesn’t exactly represent real world demographics.

This part of your post should be copied, line after line, printed, plated in gold (or, heck - forget plating, this is PS; let's draw it, CAD it, consider if it should be hand forged or cast, and then 24K it ), framed, posted everywhere, and in all of our signatures.

In all seriousness, probably the truest statement. PS is a nice place, one of my favorites to read and post, but in the "real" jewelry world, we are not.

 

[Tartansparkles]

From a sales and marketing perspective, it goes back my earlier point, you cannot assume what the customer wants (I say this to all vendors from a position of support, not criticism).

Five years ago I wanted to work with an up and coming local jeweler. He was gaining rave reviews for his craftsmanship. I went to see him about a remodel which would include the purchase of 3-5 new diamonds. I wanted a 'band that sparkles'. The conversation went like this: "do you want white gold or platinum" asked the jeweler.
"Platinum" said I
"That'll be £1500".

That was the extent of the conversation, there was no discussion at all about the diamonds. I didn't proceed.

Last week I had a look at his Facebook face, he now includes videos of all the commissions he is working on. I was heartbroken - stone after stone was lifeless. In one video i swear to goodness the only flashes from the ring were coming from the metal prongs. And this is a jeweller who has now won awards and nominations for his work.

I am not knocking sparkle. I still want that 'band that sparkes' and when the time comes I'll be choosing CBIs.

But we're not all the same and it can be dangerous, from a business point of view, to assume that we know, before asking, what a person wants to buy.

Is there a simple way of grading sparkle from 1-10? (Sorry if that's a daft question, my knowledge isn't technical enough)

Maybe there is some way to develop a matrix that says here a my priorities (big, sparkly, white) v (white, big, sparkly) and based on those criteria diamonds can be recommended (and if someone develops an app for that, you saw it here first!

 

[Rockdiamond]

Could we use the resources available to PS to work out the 'best' or 'ideal' proportions for 60/60 stones, and then encourage them to be cut? Could Yoram or Jon, for example, take a leap and get some MMD rough cut (to reduce research / initial production costs)?

It’s a sweet idea but ......the planning /cutting of diamonds today is done by computers in virtually all cases. It’s known how to cut the best 60/60 stones but it costs too much rough. The cutters make more money with the smaller tables stones that mimic “ideal cut”
Lazaare Kaplan was cutting “Ideal Cuts” in the 80”s and 90”s while the finest “Russian makes” of the day were 60/60. By reading a lot of threads here you might get the impression that the smaller tabled diamonds “perform better”
But I’ve been here for many years to offer an alternative viewpoint- and to his eternal credit, Garry never tried to stop me. He educated me to open my mind which allows me to more easily debate and discuss ASET and performance in the same language as tradespeople who embrace smaller tabled makes.
This all speaks volumes of how PS has allowed debate to flourish- even though some of the principles and or main advertisers might have preferred less debate.

 

[whitewave]

Sacrificing cut for size between super ideal and ideal isn’t the same as super ideal for a poorly cut diamond. I also never said EVERYBODY. But after moving around the country over the past 13 years and meeting hundreds of married women in the upper middle class demographic, I can name a handful who upgraded or expressed desire to upgrade. PS doesn’t exactly represent real world demographics. And recommendations are simply that, recommendations. I never act like what I recommend is the gospel. But when non “newbies“ seem to ALWAYS recommend super ideals and you can tell the OP isn’t wanting to budge on size, sorry if I want to help them find possible options that are cut well and the size they want. I used the information gathered here to find a diamond I absolutely adore and performs very well, so I’d have to imagine there are others like me out there.

I don’t know one woman who hasn’t upgraded by age 45.

 

[OoohShiny]

It’s a sweet idea but ......the planning /cutting of diamonds today is done by computers in virtually all cases. It’s known how to cut the best 60/60 stones but it costs too much rough. The cutters make more money with the smaller tables stones that mimic “ideal cut”
Lazaare Kaplan was cutting “Ideal Cuts” in the 80”s and 90”s while the finest “Russian makes” of the day were 60/60. By reading a lot of threads here you might get the impression that the smaller tabled diamonds “perform better”
But I’ve been here for many years to offer an alternative viewpoint- and to his eternal credit, Garry never tried to stop me. He educated me to open my mind which allows me to more easily debate and discuss ASET and performance in the same language as tradespeople who embrace smaller tabled makes.
This all speaks volumes of how PS has allowed debate to flourish- even though some of the principles and or main advertisers might have preferred less debate.

Thanks for your reply!

I would be interested to see some great examples side-by-side with the SuperIdeal proportions, but I imagine that could be difficult... lol

It sounds like MMD is the sort of thing that would remedy the current situation nicely

 

[whitewave]

I don’t know one woman who hasn’t upgraded by age 45.

Actually I do know one. She still has her .35 carat antique and decided to upgrade her house to one with a closet so large, she could throw a dinner party for 6 in it. Lol.

 

[amoline]

I don’t know one woman who hasn’t upgraded by age 45.

This must certainly be a geographical or economic thing, or something. Of all the women in my family, colleagues, anyone I've known, etc. -- none has ever mentioned upgrading a ring let alone actually done it.

 

[distracts]

@Paul's thoughts get the to crux of my own.

While the branded diamonds are constantly used as comparison, and set as 'an ideal' on the forum, we at B2C get many customers who have used PS as a means to be educated. Our call center often gets customers who have found a diamond through the search engine - or our website - and refer to things that are 'PS-centric.'

The requests for HCA score and ASET or I-S images is at a continual increase year-over-year for us. Some of the "99%" who do not post are certainly among these customers. I am certain you would find the same trend among any of the internet vendors (and perhaps local B&Ms) world-wide.

Often-times these consumers have a specific (not necessarily small) budget and enjoy the challenge or thrill of finding the 'best deal' they could after short-listing half a dozen or more diamonds - often using the HCA & light-performance images.

Sometimes these consumers return to PS and post their chosen options, other times not. Over the past decade, the practice has gotten to be so common we have evolved many of our customer-service specialists far beyond the ability to read a lab report, and cite return and upgrade policy; they are trained to specifically talk about the HCA, ASET, I-S, Hearts and Arrows, optical symmetry etc... We never send out a diamond that has not been independently verified by a gemologist to suit costumer desires (as a matter of fact the standards for eye-clean, light-performance, and other factors, has resulted in an increasing number of calls to the consumer stating that we do NOT recommend a particular diamond they have short-listed)

To that end, while the posts and advice tends to push for the very best light performance, and purchases of the 'known quantity' of the branded stones, we find consumers - who you may never even know were here - taking that knowledge and (as Paul states here) making a better informed decision.

And to clarify: That decision is NOT always for the best ASET. It is often for an increase in carat weight even with some leakage, for an eye-clean SI that they may have otherwise ignored, for an H color when they started out wanting only D-F, etc... Though the emphasis on PS can be perceived as "elitist" or "Intimidating" - it has been my experience that the 99% of non-posters are, perhaps more than anyone realizes, benefiting from the knowledge they find here.

I agree - I read EXTENSIVELY on PS before purchasing my (sapphire) engagement ring, but I did not post until I received it. I enjoy the community and helping people but usually post only after I’ve bought something.

I realize that what I’m proposing is radical, invasive, and non-inclusive, and will lead to a sharp decline in number of RT regulars. However, if we can devise a fair prerequisite that reflects a baseline knowledge and background, the quality of contributions will skyrocket. One of the reasons RT regulars leave is the sheer tiresomeness of babysitting other well-meaning but ignorant “advisors” - the recent thread wherein a newcomer in Hong Kong was told by several PSers that IGI is worthless and to stick to GIA and AGSL only is a fantastic example.

I think it will also compel new prosumer hopefuls into wanting to earn that badge and become part of that prestigious group... and in a few months we’ll have a much, much more disciplined, open-minded, and objective prosumer force than we currently evince.

Yes, I have snapped at people twice in the past week along that if they don’t know what they’re talking about, they shouldn’t comment.

Unfortunately I suspect that your idea would result in barely anyone giving advice and don’t think it is workable.

I don’t know one woman who hasn’t upgraded by age 45.

I wonder how much of this is geographic? I am in Dallas and I know many people who have upgraded by changing their main ring entirely and even more who get second bigger rings on anniversaries to wear on their right hand, have a stack of diamond eternities, etc. But Dallas is... it has that Dallas reputation and it lives up to it. Of course not everyone does - but it’s certainly a pretty large percentage of people I know with disposable income.

 

[whitewave]

This must certainly be a geographical or economic thing, or something. Of all the women in my family, colleagues, anyone I've known, etc. -- none has ever mentioned upgrading a ring let alone actually done it.

Yes, I’m in a Dallas/Houston/New Orleans geographical area and mindset. Everyone went from big to giant and blingy.

 

[Karl_K]

I don’t know one woman who hasn’t upgraded by age 45.

It is far less common here less than 5% I would say.

 

[Dancing Fire]

I don’t know one woman who hasn’t upgraded by age 45.

Her diamond ring or the husband?

 

[whitewave]

Her diamond ring or the husband?

Fortunately, all just the rings. My set are all on first marriages

 

[TODiamonds]

I don’t know one woman who hasn’t upgraded by age 45.

You must live in the Hamptons or something because in the real world hardly anyone upgrades their engagement stones. I literally don't know anyone who's done it - and I would say my social circle is rather affluent.

This is exactly what I mean when I say PS'ers live in a bubble

 

[kenny]

Paul I'm with you.

Sparkle (light performance) is priority 1!
Absolutely!!!!!!!

Size, color and clarity are less important than light performance.
The order of importance of those 3 Cs will vary with the person.

I think anyone who sees two diamonds side by side, one with top light performance right next to one with poor light performance will be forever convinced of this.

This is exactly what I mean when I say PS'ers live in a bubble

Some may.
Others not.

Apart from PS GTGs, I've never met anyone who has changed their wedding diamond.
But, granted, I'm an extreme introvert, and I minimize nearly all optional social contact.

 

[whitewave]

You must live in the Hamptons or something because in the real world hardly anyone upgrades their engagement stones. I literally don't know anyone who's done it - and I would say my social circle is rather affluent.

This is exactly what I mean when I say PS'ers live in a bubble

Well, none of my friends IRL are on PS. So idk

 

[TODiamonds]

I think anyone who sees two diamonds side by side, one with top light performance right next to one with poor light performance will be forever convinced of this.

Here's the thing though Kenny... that's not a fair comparison. You're assuming the same size and you're also assuming crappy cut (aka poor light performance). That's an awful comparison because the latter will be much more affordable than the former. Apples-to-Oranges.

The RELEVANT apples-to-apples comparison that the average consumer faces is this: side-by-side, sparklier vs bigger (and to be clear I'm talking "good enough GIA XXX" cut, not frozen spitball cut). That's the trade-off that most people will be making in the real world.

I've actually done this comparison in real life (as noted above) and almost all the women chose the larger stone.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I don’t think PS is elitist enough.

I think all RT posters should be required to pass a baseline “diamonds and industry 101”... Something similar for techinal CS posters. A badge could signify which posters have taken this baseline. Their posts will - should - be weighted more highly by newcomers looking for assistance. Every single RT “prosumer” should know what kimberlite is. Every single RT “prosumer” should be able to label the major and minor facets on a round brilliant, and explain what a princess chevron is. Every single RT “prosumer” should know what the major labs are, and should have some awareness that there are reputable outfits besides GIA and AGS. Every single RT “prosumer” should be able to have an intelligent conversation about the history of diamond discovery and mining. Every single RT “prosumer” should be able to explain terms like “critical angle” and “subtend”. Every single RT “prosumer” should have a shortlist of non-PS whitepapers, websites, videos, articles, other resources to use and post as references - and they should be required to post them in justification of their assertions. Every single RT “prosumer” should know when to say I don’t know, but here’s how we can find out more.

PS is an echo chamber. A newcomer who spends a couple of months here without seeking any other exposure to this industry will come to believe that buying a diamond without an ASET is impossible, that that wretched cheat sheet of RB proportions is gospel, that a well-cut J faces up like an H. They’ll internalise and parrot a set of PSisms - and when lots of people do this all at the same time those PSisms become #Facts that yet more people don’t bother to think about or verify with their own eyes. This isn’t a problem that’s unique to PS - it’s a trap that this medium of the internet forum makes it easy to fall into... How many people who post technical advice can actually explain their recommendations? Rhetorical question - the answer is “not enough”.

In my opinion being a consumer should not be sufficient qualification to participate in an advisory capacity here - we should be demanding educated consumers. And that education cannot come from PS alone.

WOW, we really are getting some great discussion and debate here. Thnak you all.

Yssie I have proposed variants (between Andrey and me, and he might kill me for raising this) of what you propose with folk who are experts, chosen by a active forum member committee and Admin.

Imagine on the home page or for any first time visitor - there is a window where people can enter what they are looking for, chose a budget, and post a public request that comes up on RT.
Only a select group of members may propose diamonds and settings.
The member whose offer is chosen gets a star.
Various members should become specialized - e.g. cushions, or whatever.
The members with the most success in helping newbies will get rewarded some how and get great reviews etc.
Maybe - The person making the request will after one or two messages be made to sign up if they wish to continue - maybe?
Some how or other these searches could be posted on RT and any other member (maybe with XXX minimum number of posts?) and everyone else can discuss the suggestions made by the 'panel' of the chosen ones.
etc

We also developed a really cool first time buyer search slider tool that informed newbies or the pros and cons as they chose a range of carat wt, color, clarity and cut - with a price slider that would move back and forward as they went up or down in any of the 4C's.

I think the 2 ideas could be merged and we might be able to help loads more people get top advice and make it fun for everyone here.
The challenge to become a chosen one.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

I joined in 2010, posted my e-ring and forgot about it, then again in 2014 when I was curious about upgrading, and again forgot about it until recently. I was never previously very active, more of a lurker trying to gain info. I feel new, but I feel like the tone was more inclusive before. I was told just 2 days ago here that my .86 ct mined diamond was hardly even a diamond, and my upgrade, a lab diamond, gets treated like an unmentionable except in a small corner here that feels like a time out. There are countless threads telling me it will soon be worthless and comparing it to copies of the real thing. Yeah, PS is elitist.

im sorry i never saw that thread
i would have loved your ring, past present and future
i also find lab grown diamonds really interesting

 

[SandyinAnaheim]

This part of your post should be copied, line after line, printed, plated in gold (or, heck - forget plating, this is PS; let's draw it, CAD it, consider if it should be hand forged or cast, and then 24K it ), framed, posted everywhere, and in all of our signatures.

In all seriousness, probably the truest statement. PS is a nice place, one of my favorites to read and post, but in the "real" jewelry world, we are not.

I disagree with a passion. We ARE in the "real" jewelry world, the one where we don't fall victim to mass sheeple advertising, where we understand that the information we are fed and brainwashed to believe is untrue. I am part of real world demographics. This "real" jewelry world is where those who want to learn what happens behind the curtain can come together to learn from not only each other, but from movers and shakers in the industry that generously share some of their time and expertise with us. Your comment STRONGLY reminds me of the ubiquitous brainwashing in the pet food industry....dogs should only eat kibble, kibble is healthy, don't feed dogs "people" food.... Not everyone wants to swallow nonsense in a wholesale fashion, and would prefer to make educated decisions. Educated decisions require time and effort to learn about the subject matter. More importantly, we are not all the same, but we ARE all part of the "real" jewelry world. The fact that you and others don't know that there are other areas in the "real" jewelry world doesn't mean they don't exist, it just means you are ignorant to them.

From a sales and marketing perspective, it goes back my earlier point, you cannot assume what the customer wants (I say this to all vendors from a position of support, not criticism).

BINGO!

...there was no discussion at all about the diamonds. I didn't proceed.

This is because the brainwashing on the general public is so utter and complete that he doesn't even feel the need to discuss diamond options with his sheeple.

I am not knocking sparkle. I still want that 'band that sparkles' and when the time comes I'll be choosing CBIs.

Excellent choice, you will NOT be disappointed.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Perhaps taking things off topic a bit, but I recall @John Pollard and @Karl_K (IIRC) have both previously mentioned that trying to find a good 60/60 nowadays is not unlike looking for a unicorn sitting in a pot of gold.
Could we use the resources available to PS to work out the 'best' or 'ideal' proportions for 60/60 stones, and then encourage them to be cut? Could Yoram or Jon, for example, take a leap and get some MMD rough cut (to reduce research / initial production costs)?
I think it could also be useful if it was possible to get some of Serg's work brought in to PS somehow?

Hi OS,
Every piece of rough has many options as to how a cutter can get the most out of it. No cutter will cut supa dupa ideals or 60:60 or whatever the goal from every piece of rough. If they did they would be bankrupt very soon.

 

[distracts]

WOW, we really are getting some great discussion and debate here. Thnak you all.

Yssie I have proposed variants (between Andrey and me, and he might kill me for raising this) of what you propose with folk who are experts, chosen by a active forum member committee and Admin.

Imagine on the home page or for any first time visitor - there is a window where people can enter what they are looking for, chose a budget, and post a public request that comes up on RT.
Only a select group of members may propose diamonds and settings.
The member whose offer is chosen gets a star.
Various members should become specialized - e.g. cushions, or whatever.
The members with the most success in helping newbies will get rewarded some how and get great reviews etc.
Maybe - The person making the request will after one or two messages be made to sign up if they wish to continue - maybe?
Some how or other these searches could be posted on RT and any other member (maybe with XXX minimum number of posts?) and everyone else can discuss the suggestions made by the 'panel' of the chosen ones.
etc

We also developed a really cool first time buyer search slider tool that informed newbies or the pros and cons as they chose a range of carat wt, color, clarity and cut - with a price slider that would move back and forward as they went up or down in any of the 4C's.

I think the 2 ideas could be merged and we might be able to help loads more people get top advice and make it fun for everyone here.
The challenge to become a chosen one.

The thing about this is - this is essentially all the diamond recommendation/referral based websites, and if we wanted to do this, any one of us could create our own website and get some amount of money from doing it. There's no incentive, as I see it, for people to do it here, when we could potentially be getting $100 or whatever (I have no clue how much referrals are) each time someone buys a diamond we recommend. Sure, people who wanted to do this would have to build up and advertise their service, but that is doable, and you'd get more directly rewarded. It seems much less like a community and much more like a service that people should be getting paid to provide when done that way. Like, if that was the way PS was, I would not be doing that and might even consider looking either into working in the industry or setting up a purchase consultation service of my own.

 

[TODiamonds]

WOW, we really are getting some great discussion and debate here. Thnak you all.

Yssie I have proposed variants (between Andrey and me, and he might kill me for raising this) of what you propose with folk who are experts, chosen by a active forum member committee and Admin.

Imagine on the home page or for any first time visitor - there is a window where people can enter what they are looking for, chose a budget, and post a public request that comes up on RT.
Only a select group of members may propose diamonds and settings.
The member whose offer is chosen gets a star.
Various members should become specialized - e.g. cushions, or whatever.
The members with the most success in helping newbies will get rewarded some how and get great reviews etc.
Maybe - The person making the request will after one or two messages be made to sign up if they wish to continue - maybe?
Some how or other these searches could be posted on RT and any other member (maybe with XXX minimum number of posts?) and everyone else can discuss the suggestions made by the 'panel' of the chosen ones.
etc

We also developed a really cool first time buyer search slider tool that informed newbies or the pros and cons as they chose a range of carat wt, color, clarity and cut - with a price slider that would move back and forward as they went up or down in any of the 4C's.

I think the 2 ideas could be merged and we might be able to help loads more people get top advice and make it fun for everyone here.
The challenge to become a chosen one.

It's an interesting concept Garry, but I think it is fraught with conflicts of interest.

I would not feel comfortable steering anyone towards a certain diamond if I had a vested interest. Personally, I wouldn't care at all about points/stickers and it wouldn't change my behavior, but I could certainly see it affecting the motivations or desires of others around here.

These are real people spending their hard earned savings on what will often be the biggest purchase of their lives (until they buy a house). I wouldn't want any games being played around something serious like that.

 

[distracts]

It's an interesting concept Garry, but I think it is fraught with conflicts of interest.

I would not feel comfortable steering anyone towards a certain diamond if I had a vested interest. Personally, I wouldn't care at all about points/stickers and it wouldn't change my behavior, but I could certainly see it affecting the motivations or desires of others around here.

These are real people spending their hard earned savings on what will often be the biggest purchase of their lives (until they buy a house). I wouldn't want any games being played around something serious like that.

I am in complete agreement. It also takes recommending from a collaboration between members to a competition between them, which I think would harm the site over the long term.