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Are we too elitist & doing 99% of newbies a disservice?

Are good at helping enough newbie buyers?


  • Total voters
    99

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
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Jan 7, 2009
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8,026
Sledge posted his example of the woman who bought "good enough" diamonds, but was disappointed, until she received ideal cut stones, which she loved.
See here's the issue.
No one reading this actually saw the stones in question. They're called 60/60 by Sledge...maybe they are. Maybe I would not have like them either- who knows- but none of that is soley because they are 60/60
Sledge, a consumer, adores his Super Ideal Diamonds. Of course, he's free to rave about them all day long.
And to assist others in obtaining what he knows, from his personal experience are the best.
Cool.
He will find others with the same opinion.
Sellers of these stones, wow they must love it!!!
But say you have a different opinion about which is the very best cut. People do. It's not a "fact" that what any of us love is the best- no matter how much you love it.
Voice the opinion that there are other proportions that you love as much or better, and a chorus of fans will shout you down and even insult you.
Since I don't agree with thge PS suggested proportions, then I must ADORE horribly cut pieces of garbage.....
The sellers of SI stones must truly love it.
 

smitcompton

Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Feb 11, 2006
Messages
2,556
Hi,

Pricescopers do not always recommend super ideal diamonds , and Texas Leager also has never said only buy super ideal diamonds" . But the case is made on here to buyers that ideal cut diamonds, like Expert selection are "good enough". Prosumers ,like Yissie, also suggest that consumers see the diamond. Others suggest persons go to jewelry stores to see what an ideal brand looks like vs other Gia stones. Many people do it, but many want a beautiful stone without the stress of doing too much work. So Pricescope works well for them.

I do believe someone like Rock Diamond can better evaluate a nice diamond than can Pricescopers who can't see the actual diamond. This is why I think Tiffany can evaluate their own diamonds well. But helpers have limitations, and so the guidelines are very useful. Prosumers get a lot of satisfaction from finding great diamonds for people. I doubt you would get the same feelings finding good enough diamonds.

I know, for myself, I wouldn't want a super ideal diamond, but an ideal cut I would like. Pricepoint is important to me. I do not know enough to recommend a diamond and I don't. But, the logic of this discussion escapes me.

Annette
 

gm89uk

Brilliant_Rock
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May 26, 2015
Messages
1,437
It's worthwhile mentioning, superideals are not always at a premium. A friend recently bought a CBI 1.40 H SI2, he was delighted with it, and after a very thorough search, it could not be beaten on price for an eye clean well cut stone of similar size. In addition the SI2 was highly vetted.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
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8,026
Very true on all counts @smitcompton!

Remember though- the sellers themselves don't say their specific diamonds are the best- consumers do it for them.
But dedicated fans can tilt discussions easily in an echo chamber.
Then we get this built-in thought that an SI is the best- anything else is "less"
Annette- I'm sure you'd love an "Ideal" diamond as much as others love their Super Ideal diamonds. It's possible you'd find it to be more beautiful, and there's no way anyone else can make that decision for you.

BTW-I'm not making the case that there's anything nefarious going on.

Unfortunately, Bryan and I don't see eye to eye on some aspects of diamonds, and it makes for some heated debates between us.
A shame, as I have tremendous respect for Bryan- without a doubt he's one of the "good guys" in a business populated by a ton of shysters. ( Remember, I walk down 47th st daily so I get to see them firsthand...lol)
But those debates about fluorescence don't mean we can't see eye to eye on many other aspects.
 

Karl_K

Ideal_Rock
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Aug 4, 2008
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Sledge, a consumer, adores his Super Ideal Diamonds. Of course, he's free to rave about them all day long.
And to assist others in obtaining what he knows, from his personal experience are the best.
Cool.
Hey dont pick on sledge he is learning this stuff like a house on fire and is moving beyond just this is best to really developing an understanding of this stuff.
That should be recognized and not talked about in this way.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
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I very much respect Sledge! Without a doubt, he is absolutely like a vacuum in terms of new learning.
Sorry-it was not meant as a"pick on".

To draw an analogy- if this was a forum about cars, and we were discussing Ford versus Chevy ( or whatever)...each side will feel strongly, people get very attached to their beloved brands
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
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Apr 23, 2018
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4,326
Thank you @Karl_K.

In regards to the example I noted earlier, the stone I suggested was a GIA XXX from Yadav. Had a 55 table, 62 depth, 35 crown and 40.6 pavilion.

It wasn't a super ideal. But they did provide advanced images which was better than many XXX stones.

This stone was on the larger side of carat weight, increase in color from I to H and gave VVS2 clarity, all factors important to that buyer.

Several 60/60 styles were suggested and commented on. None were slammed. But it was pointed out there was a PERSONALITY difference and it was suggested to learn more or view them before committing.

I feel the community did a good job helping her. She still is not 100% decided and has another stone or two coming in for review.

The comments about the earlier stones being her "good enough" stones was based on HER comments that they just didn't thrill her. Compared to the comments on the Yadav stone that she saw a difference as soon as she opened the box.

If you'd like links I am happy to share.
 

msop04

Ideal_Rock
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Dec 3, 2011
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9,739
The recent push (also obvious to me @Texas Leaguer) isn't just about super ideals, but also about relaxing typical PS recommended proportions for XXX stones.

For simplicity, let's just say that PS recommended proportions align closely with AGS Ideal criteria. Then using a WF graphic I feel this is a decent representation of what is being asked/pushed. The exact edge of the pink line would vary depending on who you ask.

super-ideal-diamond.jpg


Recently I have been helping another user on this forum find a stone. She has a tight budget for the color, size and clarity she seeks. She looked at some 60/60 stones and ordered in a few. They didn't make her world go round. Dare I say these were her "good enough" stones?

I then suggested a slew of different stones, using typical PS parameters. She ordered one of them in and is rather ecstatic.
This illustration is perfect! This is exactly what I mean! Personally, I try to get that pink circle a little tighter when I'm looking. ;-)

I feel like a PS members' "good enough" is gonna be pretty fantastic when compared to what most people would end up buying without help from this forum. I can speak from experience, as my first diamond was "great" to me at first, then I really got into PS and tried to educate myself. My "great" diamond turned out to be just barely "good enough" for me after that. Now, my current diamond is not a super ideal, but it sparkles like crazy and is really great to me. I feel like I used the education I received here to navigate through a ton of GIA XXX stones to find one that was well cut and a great value.
 

Rfisher

Brilliant_Rock
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But dedicated fans can tilt discussions easily in an echo chamber.
I have no skin in this game. But
I think this is the crux of the past couple PS threads encompassing this same general idea of change.
Tapping into PS driven sales/notoriety geared towards lesser used vendors and slower moving stock, that /assume/ places like ED used to and RC does.
 
Last edited:

Rfisher

Brilliant_Rock
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And they’d prefer it to be a grassroots movement.
Not change implemented by owner(s) of PS.
 

smitcompton

Ideal_Rock
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Feb 11, 2006
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Hi,

Yes RFisher, but this brings to mind the question of whether or not PS is looking to include more vendors which increases their ad income, which is where they get their revenue. Garry's altruism comes at a time when PS is shrinking. Perhaps follow the money is the reason.

I do believe PS is a wonderful service to the diamond community. I do not wish to limit income sources, but this change, which may be good, is perplexing.

Annette
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
8,026
Really good point @smitcompton
But the trends- as I see them- are going in the wrong direction if we're looking at more trade involvement.
The trade itself is shrinking...at least in terms of how many businesses and personnel there are here in the US. It's quite possible that employment has increased in places like India- but those folks are not coming to PS.
And for many years, I've felt that the folks in our position ( tradespeople) were missing an awesome opportunity to participate here. Now there's so many less of us.....
 

Texas Leaguer

Ideal_Rock
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Jul 27, 2009
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3,122
If you build it they will come.

The problem is not that people here are suddenly giving bad advice. It has always been a mix of opinions, priorities, agendas, and viewpoints. The competition of ideas is stimulating and helps make it an interesting and useful place for visitors. Discussions have always been moderated thoughtfully and reasonable rules put in place for tradespeople to be able to be involved in an educational way.

The problem is the website has not kept up with the times and traffic has been steadily lost to other sites. With the exception of a few threads here and there, no significant building or updating of content, website navigation, or look and feel has been done.

In the absence of such attention a decline is entirely predictable. Every business today is subject to intense competition, even educational portals.

But if the will is there to remain relevant and the proper strategy put in place, over time the trend can be reversed. Vendors and prosumers have common cause to want to see a return to a more robust pricescope. Thru a collective effort the necessary improvements could be made.

The essential thing necessary is for all stakeholders (virtual sellers, super ideal merchants, prosumers, newbies, and pricescope owners) to recognize that we all benefit in different ways from a healthy and robust forum. A rising tide will lift all boats.

To quote a couple of famous sayings, "Stronger Together" and "Yes We Can".
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
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8,026
Another point for consideration....
The discussion of cut, and how to assess- there's actually two totally different discussions.
Round Brilliant.
And everything else.

The idea proliferates that another cut, for example, square cushion, should look like an RBC. It needs to be if it wants to be "ideal".
AGSL goes along with this, to some degree.
Then, if you cut a rectangular diamond, it's never going to work the same way ( or be as good as) as a stone whose L=W ( or close to it)
That's one of the reasons why there was never cut grade, or an AGSL report for The Original Radiant ( may the ORC rest in peace)

My point is that the art of assessing cut has been lost, to a large degree, in RBC mentality.
GIA's been threatening cut grades on fancy shapes for at least 10 years ( I participated in a study they did back then)
But to this point, a Pear Brilliant, Cushion Brilliant, Oval Brilliant ( or any of the modified versions of these shapes), Emerald Cut- anything other than an RBS, if it's compared to an RBC on the basis of how we judge a round ( ASET for example) , many drippingly gorgeous in real life can be judged as inferior.
So what happens is that the discussion of Fancy Shape cut frequently is centered on stones that mimic an RBC.....
 

prs

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
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Dec 26, 2017
Messages
924
Enabler? :doh:

Nice.
Sorry @kenny I've been feeling uncomfortable about my use of that word ever since I posted. Lying in bed at 3:00 am this morning thinking about it, I realized crusader was the word I had been grasping for. Super ideal crusaders would have been a much more apt description for some of our more ardent prosumer cut experts. :)

Crusaders ably led into battle by the lionhearted King Bryan. :lol-2:
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
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27,457
Thanks, no problem prs. :))

I've posted things here I wish I hadn't.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
Trade
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8,026
Perfect example....
 

amoline

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
318

Here's a completely and perfectly reasonable newbie post met with completely unreasonable response -- and perhaps we could be doing better (or at least more tactfully) in these scenarios.
 
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