will Obama be a good President?

[FrekeChild]

Just to clarify, who are you addressing?

Are your friend''s typically R or D, or even Independant? Or don''t belong to a party at all? If I''m going to ask that question, I might as well ask, what are you registered as?

FYI guys, I''m going to have to bow out and go to school pretty soon...

Moon- Today we''re talking about Marx and Hegel and the causes of class conflict, and what happens if the proletariat over takes the bourgeoisie. Oh. And materialism. Very interesting stuff. However, still hard to read. *sigh*

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 6/12/2008 3:21:45 PM
Author: HeadOverHeels4James
Well maybe it is just a matter of where you live because all of my friends HATE Obama and think he tries way to hard. He think something is not right with him. My ff it''s VERY STRONGLY against him!

Well, how old are you and your friends? I can certainly see him embarassing his kids trying to look cool. But I actually think most of it comes naturally to him because he''s just not that old. How did you guys come to the conclusion that he doesn''t take his job seriously and that he''s unprofessional?

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 6/12/2008 3:28:32 PM
Author: FrekeChild

Moon- Today we''re talking about Marx and Hegel and the causes of class conflict, and what happens if the proletariat over takes the bourgeoisie. Oh. And materialism. Very interesting stuff. However, still hard to read. *sigh*

Girl, where on Earth do you find the time to read these threads, let alone respond? My head is hurting thinking about what you''re studying.

 

[HeadOverHeels4James]

I live in IN majority of us here are REP, FF is from SC. I''m undecided I really feel it varies person to person. Most of my friends don''t belong to a specific party either.

 

[diamondfan]

Freke, I totally get your point. I mean, if you feel something so vehemently (again the general "you" not anyone in particular) it would make sense that you can articulate the reasons why. I am just more looking at, for example, I SAY why, the reasons that make sense to me and work for me, and yet, again and again, MORE is demanded and my views are being challenged. My answers are never satisfactory. At some point that is not MY problem any longer. I think at the end of the day, you COULD say to me, Hey, McCain is old. I do not want a President who is that old, it worries me because of his health etc. I could they say, well, he IS old, but that does not mean he is infirm or ill or whatever...and again you could say it still does not sit well with you. At that point, whether I agree or not, you have stated your view, and my continual harrague would not necessarily accomplish much. But certainly I would not feel I could not ask you to elaborate. I think, for me, it is about knowing when to say WHEN. And to always be nice and respectful during the process.

I recall a philosophy teacher at USC asking us once if knowledge was implicit or explicit in nature. Like, if you are a math genius but cannot explain to someone else how to do the problem, are you any less capable? Or if I have eaten steak all my life and you ask me to describe what steak tastes like, and I cannot verbalize it in a way that makes sense, does that mean I have not eaten it or tasted it?

Personally, minus the snarkiness, I like these threads because I can tend to be myopic and I think there are such complexities with elections and the state of the country that I welcome the ability to read and learn new stuff. At the end of day it might or might not change my view, but at least I feel I have broadened my scope.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Date: 6/12/2008 3:21:45 PM
Author: HeadOverHeels4James
Well maybe it is just a matter of where you live because all of my friends HATE Obama and think he tries way to hard. He think something is not right with him. My ff it''s VERY STRONGLY against him!

I think the "group think" phenomenon is extremely evident in political views. Look, I''m not an Obama supporter--in fact I disagree with his stance on nearly every policy (just as there is not one single candidate with whom I agree on every policy, there also isn''t a candidate with whom I completely disagree, either), but I love reading about him, reading people''s views about him, reading his speeches--the only way to know what you truly believe is to read all sides of the issue at hand. So I would just take some of the things that are most important to you whether it''s education, the border policy, taxes, what have you and just start diving into how all of the candidates feel about them, about their history, etc. Politics and passion go hand in hand--in fact, I love discussing it with people who have totally different beliefs than I do because I love that they care. I''d take that over somebody who is wishy washy or simply doesn''t care any day. So I''m not at all flaming you nor do I think your beliefs are wrong...I just want for you to figure this out on your own. Who cares what your friends think, who cares what your FF thinks, it''s exciting to read and learn about this kind of stuff and feel like you''re making the most informed decision you possibly can.

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 6/12/2008 3:32:04 PM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 6/12/2008 3:28:32 PM
Author: FrekeChild
Moon- Today we''re talking about Marx and Hegel and the causes of class conflict, and what happens if the proletariat over takes the bourgeoisie. Oh. And materialism. Very interesting stuff. However, still hard to read. *sigh*

Girl, where on Earth do you find the time to read these threads, let alone respond? My head is hurting thinking about what you''re studying.

Lol. A tiny bit of insomnia mixed with a dash of sleeping in, whip it together with a whole lot of posting in between reading and doing homework, and you''ve got it figured out.

All I have to say is thank god my mom made me read when I was little because I became a speed reader at a very early age and it has helped out tremendously. I guess I should give FF some credit too though, because he has oodles of patience explaining it to me.

Besides-I could ask the same of you! Between finding all of the articles that you do, random interesting stuff, working AND reading all of these books (political and otherwise)-when do you have time to sleep?

P.S. I made banana bread in my "spare time" last night.

 

[HeadOverHeels4James]

wow very well said DF

 

[HeadOverHeels4James]

NEL~ I totally get what your saying, but I could never get passed the way I feel when I see him; no matter how great he is/was.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 6/12/2008 3:39:37 PM
Author: FrekeChild

Date: 6/12/2008 3:32:04 PM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 6/12/2008 3:28:32 PM
Author: FrekeChild
Moon- Today we''re talking about Marx and Hegel and the causes of class conflict, and what happens if the proletariat over takes the bourgeoisie. Oh. And materialism. Very interesting stuff. However, still hard to read. *sigh*

Girl, where on Earth do you find the time to read these threads, let alone respond? My head is hurting thinking about what you''re studying.

Lol. A tiny bit of insomnia mixed with a dash of sleeping in, whip it together with a whole lot of posting in between reading and doing homework, and you''ve got it figured out.

All I have to say is thank god my mom made me read when I was little because I became a speed reader at a very early age and it has helped out tremendously. I guess I should give FF some credit too though, because he has oodles of patience explaining it to me.

Besides-I could ask the same of you! Between finding all of the articles that you do, random interesting stuff, working AND reading all of these books (political and otherwise)-when do you have time to sleep?

P.S. I made banana bread in my ''spare time'' last night.

Good point. A friend of mine said something similar just yesterday. I''m an insane multi-tasker. I think it comes from being severely responsible (3 younger brothers, no dad around) since I was a 6 year old. I type 80wpm, typically don''t review very well for spelling/grammer before hitting submit...which really shows I''ve noticed lol, read articles first thing in the morning, through out the day (for breaks between work), and through out the evening (for breaks from school work). I also have an hour and a half commute to and from work and I read a lot on the train. I think I need a vacation!

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 6/12/2008 3:37:38 PM
Author: diamondfan
Freke, I totally get your point. I mean, if you feel something so vehemently (again the general ''you'' not anyone in particular) it would make sense that you can articulate the reasons why. I am just more looking at, for example, I SAY why, the reasons that make sense to me and work for me, and yet, again and again, MORE is demanded and my views are being challenged. My answers are never satisfactory. At some point that is not MY problem any longer. I think at the end of the day, you COULD say to me, Hey, McCain is old. I do not want a President who is that old, it worries me because of his health etc. I could they say, well, he IS old, but that does not mean he is infirm or ill or whatever...and again you could say it still does not sit well with you. At that point, whether I agree or not, you have stated your view, and my continual harrague would not necessarily accomplish much. But certainly I would not feel I could not ask you to elaborate. I think, for me, it is about knowing when to say WHEN. And to always be nice and respectful during the process.

I recall a philosophy teacher at USC asking us once if knowledge was implicit or explicit in nature. Like, if you are a math genius but cannot explain to someone else how to do the problem, are you any less capable? Or if I have eaten steak all my life and you ask me to describe what steak tastes like, and I cannot verbalize it in a way that makes sense, does that mean I have not eaten it or tasted it?

(((Hugs)))DF. I completely understand. While we may have differing opinions on many things (and unforunately, differing shoe size) you are one of my favorite posters.

BTW you outlined my reasoning behind McCain''s health perfectly. Wanna go post it for me on the "President McCain" thread? "Freke says:..."

Only kidding...

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 6/12/2008 3:45:10 PM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 6/12/2008 3:39:37 PM
Author: FrekeChild

Date: 6/12/2008 3:32:04 PM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 6/12/2008 3:28:32 PM
Author: FrekeChild
Moon- Today we''re talking about Marx and Hegel and the causes of class conflict, and what happens if the proletariat over takes the bourgeoisie. Oh. And materialism. Very interesting stuff. However, still hard to read. *sigh*

Girl, where on Earth do you find the time to read these threads, let alone respond? My head is hurting thinking about what you''re studying.

Lol. A tiny bit of insomnia mixed with a dash of sleeping in, whip it together with a whole lot of posting in between reading and doing homework, and you''ve got it figured out.

All I have to say is thank god my mom made me read when I was little because I became a speed reader at a very early age and it has helped out tremendously. I guess I should give FF some credit too though, because he has oodles of patience explaining it to me.

Besides-I could ask the same of you! Between finding all of the articles that you do, random interesting stuff, working AND reading all of these books (political and otherwise)-when do you have time to sleep?

P.S. I made banana bread in my ''spare time'' last night.

Good point. A friend of mine said something similar just yesterday. I''m an insane multi-tasker. I think it comes from being severely responsible (3 younger brothers, no dad around) since I was a 6 year old. I type 80wpm, typically don''t review very well for spelling/grammer before hitting submit...which really shows I''ve noticed lol, read articles first thing in the morning, through out the day (for breaks between work), and through out the evening (for breaks from school work). I also have an hour and a half commute to and from work and I read a lot on the train. I think I need a vacation!

Lol. I''m a multitasker too-thanks to my culinary training. What kind of sucks is that it''s mixed with stupid ADHD so often I jump from one thing to the next without telling the person I''m working with or talking to, and they have no idea what I''m doing or where I''m going. Sometimes it scares FF with how much my mind flits about. I try to proof read stuff before I post it and make sure it makes sense, but sometimes...oy!

 

[Erin]

Date: 6/12/2008 3:43:38 PM
Author: HeadOverHeels4James
NEL~ I totally get what your saying, but I could never get passed the way I feel when I see him; no matter how great he is/was.

You think he looks like an alien? His facial expressions are twitchy? His skin is too dark? He''s too short? His smile is insincere?
We''re getting somewhere. I feel like a probing therapist. Although you don''t have to answer.

 

[HeadOverHeels4James]

hehe starset your too cute! I was cracking up about the alien thing. haha It has to do with a quality I just can''t explain. You know people you look at and just get chills, Charles Mason, Jeffrey Dahmer, Ron Jeremy........ haha OK........ I''m not comparing him to the notorious murders or **** star I''m just stating them to help convey my message. There is something odd in their eyes.

 

[partgypsy]

OOOKay.


(Partgypsy comes to check out Obama thread, sees antichrist, Jeffrey Dahmer references. Tip toes out back the way she came)

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 6/8/2008 12:29:49 PM
Author: ksinger

Date: 6/7/2008 1:06:14 PM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 6/7/2008 12:50:45 PM
Author: ksinger

Date: 6/7/2008 12:31:05 PM

Author: MoonWater

Karen I agree with you and I think what you''re discussing is different. For example, I''m sure you wouldn''t make a blatant comparison between Bush and Hitler because you would be oversimplifying the issue(s). FI, as he''s reading this book about Totalitarianism finds another creepy parallel among how Jews were treated in Germany and how black people are treated in the US. That would be an extremely long discussion and it would have to be laid out by him. He has a better understanding of this than I do (although I plan to read the book he''s reading once he''s done). Basically, it starts, not with a hatred of a people, but an indifference to a people. As in, it''s not the people with strong racists beliefs, it''s the people that are oblivious to what''s going on around them. It makes it easier for someone to come in and convince you of a people''s flaws/evils/what have you, and convince you that you must turn against them for your own preservation. I think the same can be said for how this Administration has convinced US citizens to allow certain things to occur, you know, for their own protection.



AGBF, good example! I remember USENET and for some reason I feel I remember that rule as well.

Yeah, I do know it''s different. Invoking Hitler without precision is just asking for a fight, the mere name is SO loaded. And Hermann Goering was a devil, but he was no fool and was spot on when he said this:


''Naturally the common people don''t want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in Germany for that matter. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.''


And we watched it happen. Textbook.


The FI wouldn''t be reading Arendt''s ''Origins of Totalitarianism'' by any chance? I just bought it recently, and it''s on my list of ''light summer reading''. Along with finishing ''Bad Money'', ''American Dynasty'', ''The Trillion Dollar Meltdown'', ''The Age of American Unreason'', and ''American Fascists''. Obviously, I''m hardly over-booked.

(har)

LOL oh Karen. See, you remind me of my FI a lot. You have an enormous amount of knowledge loaded into your brain and you can back up any claim you make with FACTUAL EVIDENCE. First, spot on with that quote. I swear I''ve read it before or something similar and it amazes me how people don''t realize they are being manipulated. Second, yes! That is indeed the book he is reading. Chances are you''ll beat me to it so tell me what you think.

Wow. I just now read this. (In my zeal to NOT post anything to fan the flames I''ve skipped some stuff apparently) Coming from you Moon that means alot. Really. I absolutely respect your intellect and the substance of your posts, and have learned loads from you. As one of the ''emotional'' type folks I even respect you slapping me back to reason, and back to the point when necessary.

You help me hone my thoughts, and that is a pearl of great price to me.

And egghead that I am, I did actually go out and do some research on that quote''s attribution, it IS true. In one of my many quote files, (

even a bigger geek) I have the background on it. Apparently Goering said it to his lawyer? while on in jail and on trial in Nuremberg.

I doubt I''ll beat you to that book though. It''s a monster by all accounts, and I tend to jump around. Much like diamonds, with books I see the next interesting title and go ''Oooo!!!! Priiiiiiiity!!!'' and then I''m off. LOL!

Ok, hilarious that I missed your post in which you had missed my post! Likewise to the purple highlighted portion. It''s an absolute pleasure to exchange info with you and even to disagree with you! I have definitely learned a lot.

Ok, I''m copying and pasting that quote and sending it to FI with no other comments. I want to see if he recognizes it.

 

[MoonWater]

begin threadjack/

CONGRATULATIONS ON GETTING MARRIED KAREN! It was last Thursday correct? How were the margaritas? Man I''d kill for one right now.

/end threadjack

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 6/12/2008 3:30:41 PM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 6/12/2008 3:21:45 PM
Author: HeadOverHeels4James
Well maybe it is just a matter of where you live because all of my friends HATE Obama and think he tries way to hard. He think something is not right with him. My ff it's VERY STRONGLY against him!

Well, how old are you and your friends? I can certainly see him embarassing his kids trying to look cool. But I actually think most of it comes naturally to him because he's just not that old. How did you guys come to the conclusion that he doesn't take his job seriously and that he's unprofessional?

Hey HOH4J, care to answer the above?

 

[MoonWater]

Starset, is that Obama and Kathleen? LMAO!! OMG that''s awesome. I want it as a button!

 

[HeadOverHeels4James]

I''m 21, my friends are mostly 20-27. My mom is the same age as Obama. He certainly is A LOT younger then McCain, but I don''t think he is part of my generation.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 6/12/2008 4:23:25 PM
Author: HeadOverHeels4James
I''m 21, my friends are mostly 20-27. My mom is the same age as Obama. He certainly is A LOT younger then McCain, but I don''t think he is part of my generation.

Ok, but how did you come to the conclusion that he does not take the job seriously and that he''s not professional?

 

[Erin]

Date: 6/12/2008 4:19:24 PM
Author: MoonWater
Starset, is that Obama and Kathleen? LMAO!! OMG that''s awesome. I want it as a button!

Yes it is!!!

 

[HeadOverHeels4James]

I have no good reasons besides I feel like he is phony; and sometimes when he talks I feel like he thinks this country is going to be a great and happy place with rainbows, ponies, and chocolate chip cookies. In conclusion.... I feel like he is making many promises and statements, that he is going to be able to follow through with or accomplish. He is giving the American people false hope and false peace!

 

[Erin]

Looks more realistic when smaller

 

[Erin]

Date: 6/12/2008 4:41:25 PM
Author: HeadOverHeels4James
I feel like he is making many promises and statements, that he is going to be able to follow through with or accomplish.

Me Too! lol

What''s wrong with a little optimism?

 

[HeadOverHeels4James]

Nothing is wrong with optimism, my problem false security. I really think every politician is a liar. I mean, they can''t make everyone happy. What a crappy job! NO matter what you do you''ll be hated.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 6/12/2008 4:44:00 PM
Author: Starset Princess

Date: 6/12/2008 4:41:25 PM
Author: HeadOverHeels4James
I feel like he is making many promises and statements, that he is going to be able to follow through with or accomplish.

Me Too! lol

What''s wrong with a little optimism?

Haha. Cute.

And yes, that pic looks much more realistic smaller. I was happy with the little fantasy (and worried that Michelle was gonna kick Barack''s butt later lol)

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 6/12/2008 4:46:48 PM
Author: HeadOverHeels4James
Nothing is wrong with optimism, my problem false security. I really think every politician is a liar. I mean, they can''t make everyone happy. What a crappy job! NO matter what you do you''ll be hated.

Well, I hope no one really expects one single person to solve all their problems and make them happy. What I think Obama has accomplished, just by running, is a reawakening among many that had lost all ...here comes the buzz word...hope. This country belongs to US, not one person, not one group, not only the rich, not only the white, not only the straight. I think more people now, than before, feel like they have to put forth their own individual effort to see the ...here comes the buzz word...change they want.

I''m not sure if you already read about Obama''s life experiences and his accomplishments since becoming an elected official. But I don''t believe anything is false about what he seeks to accomplish. It really isn''t that hard if everyone chips in.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 6/12/2008 1:38:37 PM
Author: ladypirate

Date: 6/12/2008 1:22:03 PM
Author: NewEnglandLady

Date: 6/12/2008 1:11:48 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
I would agree with what Diamondfan last wrote. I think people have every right to make statements such as:

I don't like Obama. I hate liver.

I like rounds better than pears. Cheesecake is yummy and I don't like lemon pie at all. Abraham Lincoln was a great President.

I can make these kind of statements. They are my opinions and I can choose to justify them or not. I think it is wise to choose our words very carefully, however.

I know this is off topic, but I find it interesting. See, I can totally relate to the liver, rounds vs. pear, cheesecake, etc. comparisons because those have to do with one's senses. Aesthetically you like one or the other or you enjoy the taste of some things and not others. But when it comes to something cerebral, something that you have to think about, learn about and believe in, I think there is more substance there. If you don't like Obama because he doesn't appeal to you aesthetically, then that's understandable (not that I'd recommend anybody vote on that), but if you don't like what he believes in, that requires independent thought. It requires at least some analysis. But maybe that's just the way I think.

I totally agree, NEL. The idea of disliking someone for no reason (other than that you 'just do') is really strange to me.

Nope, you are twisting what I said (if you were referring to my post). All of those things have qualities that I like or do not like for a REASON. It is my choice whether or not I share those reasons. I don't have to justify who I vote for to anyone. But I have excellent reasons for not wanting Obama as my president. I disagree with many of his positions on major issues. I will not be voting for him. I think he will win because he has a charismatic personality and doesn't have the greatest possible opponent. Kind of reminds me of Bill Clinton in that regard.

 

[Erin]

Date: 6/12/2008 4:52:33 PM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 6/12/2008 4:46:48 PM
Author: HeadOverHeels4James
Nothing is wrong with optimism, my problem false security. I really think every politician is a liar. I mean, they can't make everyone happy. What a crappy job! NO matter what you do you'll be hated.

Well, I hope no one really expects one single person to solve all their problems and make them happy. What I think Obama has accomplished, just by running, is a reawakening among many that had lost all ...here comes the buzz word...hope. This country belongs to US, not one person, not one group, not only the rich, not only the white, not only the straight. I think more people now, than before, feel like they have to put forth their own individual effort to see the ...here comes the buzz word...change they want.

I'm not sure if you already read about Obama's life experiences and his accomplishments since becoming an elected official. But I don't believe anything is false about what he seeks to accomplish. It really isn't that hard if everyone chips in.

I feel so empowered. Yes, Obama promises to hire informed and talented people to aid him in the technicalities of this daunting position he seeks. With McCain - only because he's the only other viable choice - chooses solutions to problems which benefit the minority. And when I say minority that doesn't include the tired, the poor, the non-white, the gay.. Obama has inspired a reawakening where the people, all people, have a say, have the power, have the right, to expect more from our government.

Your job, hell, your right, as an American citizen, is to say every politician is a liar, a crook, they only say what I want to hear... Fine. People can accept that. But come November you have the right to vote. Don't take that for granted. There are millions of people in this world that would trade places with you in a second for that very right. So now. Who do you vote for to run your government? There are many things about McCain that I question but if he were the one who spoke to the masses about buzzzzzz hope and change instead (and I aligned with his issues) I'd vote for him in a heartbeat. I'm not trying to convince you to vote for Obama. I'm just hoping you vote based on which candidate's platform appeals to you.