What is this SCARINESS in my diamond that I thought I loved?? PIC

[sodenc]

Date: 2/24/2010 1:29:38 PM
Author: kristie
Well, I have been in contact with them via email and they refuse to budge. They found me a nicer 2.52 F/SI1 but I will have to pay them $14,000 MORE!!!!!

They REFUSE to do an even exchange and are taking $4000 from me as the ''trade in.'' I paid around $22,000 for it and they will only give me back $18,000 if I want to walk away. Same goes for a trade in......I only get $18,000 towards the trade.

THEY were the ones that mounted the stone so it has nothing to do with that.

The excuse for the ''no return'' is that he ordered it from an outside vendor/cutter and he told the vendor/cutter he had it sold. They ''shook'' on it so he says a deal is a deal and I CANNOT go back on it because that particular vendor would never ever sell to him again if he did this.

Did I mention that they NEVER GAVE ME THE GIA REPORT ON IT???????

I find that hard to believe. It may be somewhat of an inconvenience for him and the vendor, but I am sure they do quite a bit of business together... this is probably not the first time they have encountered something like this. I purchased a stone from a vendor , and when I had it appraised the reality was that it just did not match the certification with regard to color and clarity. The stone was already set in the mounting. At first the seller (who also obtained the stone from an outside vendor/cutter) was reluctant to return the stone. But after some serious negotiations he agreed to take the stone back. I know the original vendor has it, because it is already listed back in the diamond listings. I asked another web vendor to send me the certification to see if it was the same, and it is. Don''t give up hope. A few more calls, and he will probably change his mond

 

[kristie]

^^^That is exactly the reason I was given. That he and the cutter "shook" and said "mazel" on it and therefore, it CANNOT be returned to the cutter. They are making it sound like he will be blackballed from the entire industry if he sends it back to the cutter.

They refuse anything other than what they offered me, which is a 4K loss.

Did I contemplate doing a chargeback in a particularly evil and VERY upset moment? Yes, I did. Would I? No.....I won''t stoop to that level.

I pointed out to them in my last email that California has a LOT of consumer protection laws in place.....we will see how that goes over.

The part that is almost even worse than the $4k loss, is that I am being made to feel like CRAP by everyone involved like I am a HORRIBLE person for deciding I do not like it now that I have seen it in different kinds of lighting.

 

[bgray]

Kristie: Do they have a written return policy anywhere. on your receipt or online?

 

[sodenc]

Unfortunately I did not... so similar to you. It was a big headache to get them to take the stone back. I ultimately fedexed the stone back to them and flew across country to pick out another diamond based upon the specs I wanted 2 days later. Flying was a couple hundred dollars, and it was somewhat impractical, but I figured if I was spending thousands of dollars, I was going to get this done they way I wanted it...no matter the headache

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 2/24/2010 1:29:38 PM
Author: kristie
Well, I have been in contact with them via email and they refuse to budge. They found me a nicer 2.52 F/SI1 but I will have to pay them $14,000 MORE!!!!!

They REFUSE to do an even exchange and are taking $4000 from me as the ''trade in.'' I paid around $22,000 for it and they will only give me back $18,000 if I want to walk away. Same goes for a trade in......I only get $18,000 towards the trade.

THEY were the ones that mounted the stone so it has nothing to do with that.

The excuse for the ''no return'' is that he ordered it from an outside vendor/cutter and he told the vendor/cutter he had it sold. They ''shook'' on it so he says a deal is a deal and I CANNOT go back on it because that particular vendor would never ever sell to him again if he did this.

Did I mention that they NEVER GAVE ME THE GIA REPORT ON IT???????

probably because the cutter haven''t send him the report yet.

 

[cara]

Honestly, this is not *that* far off from other PS vendor's policies. For example, WF has only a 10-day return policy on stones that are not in-house for exactly this reason - they get the stone on memo and once they confirm the sale it becomes a huge hassle for them to go back on their word and return the stone to where ever it came from. AND if they keep it in-house to resell it, it ties up their money in a stone their customers might not want. Imagine how many people are going to want this not eye-clean 2.5 ct stone. Its not something WF would want in its inventory hogging up company resources.

Kristie, while this absolutely sucks, it is what it is. I think you want to send this diamond back and get what you can get from them. I'd ask if you can get cash out of this deal if you take the $4000 hit so you don't have to deal with them for the replacement because you are so unhappy with them. Or keep asking for full credit on the price if they will only do store credit. You can keep harping on the degree of eyecleanliness if you want, politely but firmly, and say this is way outside of acceptable for an SI stone, but at the end of the day it is going to be very hard for you dispose of this some other way and only lose $4000.

 

[kristie]

NOPE, there is NO RETURN POLICY written online or on the receipt. The only thing written on the receipt is "All claims and returned goods MUST be accompanied by this bill."

That is IT on there........

BTW, I paid for it on the and it has to be set, etc. I received it in hand on the 19th.

I have been SO nice until today I feel like I am losing it........

 

[Dreamer_D]

I am so sorry for this situation that you are in Kristie. And my comments are not going to be helpful to you, but hopefully will help future consumers.

I do not think that the vendor is at fault in this situation. You neglected to ask about the return policy, or lack thereof. You finalized the sale without receiving the GIA report. You also chose in the first place to go with an SI2 diamond, which is a big risk, one that people should not take without knowing there is an iron clad return period in place.

Sometimes when we make large purchases we take a hit for a bad choice. This might be the hit you take. I know I have taken some in my time. I would follow LittleGreyKitten''s advice and keep pushing for a larger refund. Over the phone or in person if need be. And if they will not oblige, then take the money they will give you and go elsewhere. And buy something lovely that you can live with.

 

[kristie]

^^I do fully accept that I should be penalized for not specifying a return policy prior to purchase. I would be happy to accept a loss of $1000-$1500 for my stupidity in not asking.......but $4000 is just a bit much KWIM?

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 2/24/2010 2:37:09 PM
Author: kristie
^^I do fully accept that I should be penalized for not specifying a return policy prior to purchase. I would be happy to accept a loss of $1000-$1500 for my stupidity in not asking.......but $4000 is just a bit much KWIM?

It sounds like a lot when stated baldly, but it amounts to a 5% "restocking fee". I know it hurts, I got mad at my computer store for charging me a 5% restocking fee on my $25 purchase.

ETA Ooops... it is a 20% restocking fee

I am feverish today. Yes, that is very steep.

Are they willing to give you $18k cash on a refund? Or is that only if you do the trade...

 

[cara]

kristie, this $4000 is apx 20% of the sale price. You will not be able to sell this stone on your own and recover anywhere near that amount. Not to mention the hassle. And for your vendor to take the stone back, they either need to unwind their own transaction with the cutter (which they have already committed to complete) or they need to hold onto this stone in-house for an unspecified period of time until they can resell it. Yes, they do sell diamonds for a business but this particular stone does cost a fair chunk of change and may not be the easiest item to move. They did not *plan* on purchasing this stone for their in-house inventory, if they maintain any, nor on breaking their word to their cutter regarding the transaction, and they have designed their (lack-of) return policy accordingly. You must compensate them for this hassle. While you might feel that $1000 or $1500 would be sufficient (and I'm not arguing on that point) the other number to consider is what you would get reselling this on your own. Its not pretty, and $4000 is probably a reasonable compromise between the two.

Like I said in my earlier post, I would see if you can get them to refund you cash if you agree to the $4000 hit so that you don't have to deal with them anymore. But they may not want to do that, and they aren't obligated to. At this point its about getting the best possible outcome for yourself, and I think that involves returning the stone for whatever optimal compensation you can negotiate to receive from the vendor.

Good luck. Sucky situation. Why its important to work with a vendor with a good return policy, and to read up on the details of said return policy even if you don't think you'll need it. I have learned some lessons like this before, and they don't sit very well with me but hopefully I woln't repeat them.

 

[purrfectpear]

Date: 2/24/2010 2:31:23 PM
Author: dreamer_dachsie
I am so sorry for this situation that you are in Kristie. And my comments are not going to be helpful to you, but hopefully will help future consumers.

I do not think that the vendor is at fault in this situation. You neglected to ask about the return policy, or lack thereof. You finalized the sale without receiving the GIA report. You also chose in the first place to go with an SI2 diamond, which is a big risk, one that people should not take without knowing there is an iron clad return period in place.

Sometimes when we make large purchases we take a hit for a bad choice. This might be the hit you take. I know I have taken some in my time. I would follow LittleGreyKitten''s advice and keep pushing for a larger refund. Over the phone or in person if need be. And if they will not oblige, then take the money they will give you and go elsewhere. And buy something lovely that you can live with.

Big Ditto. In no way is this the fault of the seller. Per your previous thread, you were even told that the twinning wisp could look dark by the appraiser, so it''s not as though it is some mystery thing that cropped up.

The restocking fee is fairly typical. Lesson learned and move on. Hopefully the diamond of your dreams is soon on your finger

 

[D&T]

so sorry for your headache in all of this. Honestly, even though they do not give refunds... it just sounds like they are really doing a "diamond buyback" program for you at 20% less the original price, which is pretty good, other PS vendors only do 70%, just think of it this way, whether you only had it a few days or 10 months. Unfortunately, this was just hard/expensive lesson to learn about the fine print. You will find your diamond of your dream soon, so imo... I'd take the refund of $18k and go elsewhere. I hate to work vendors that make you feel like crap any longer and would not do an exchange with them as they are double dipping if they only offer 20% less but selling you full price on the next diamond, so take the $$$ and run far from them.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

When the vendor refers to a ''mazal'' as the closure of a deal, it is indeed considered an unwritten rule that one cannot go back on this. However, in reality, mazals are broken constantly, without any repercussion. Granted, it will require some kind of apology, and if it is the first ever deal between two parties, it will not be positive for potential further collaboration.

I disagree however with those stating that the vendor did not do anything wrong. One of his essential roles as a retailer, aside from trying to make a sale, is also to protect his customers. In most cases, this is done by checking quality before delivery, but I can imagine that this is non-existent with a drop-shipper. In the absence of such quality-control, there will be regular situations in which the customer will not be satisfied with the goods delivered. The minimum one can expect then is a minimal return-policy, not a situation in which the vendor is trying to pressure 4K out of the consumer''s pockets.

While I realise that there is little recourse possible, I think that the vendor is at major fault here.

Live long,

 

[winternight]

Well if the vendor does not have their return policy stated on the website or in some form of written communication I think you would have a good shot with doing a chargeback through your credit card company. In my view a merchant is obligated to post a return policy and while customers should ask about one that doesn''t relieve the merchant of their responsibility.

I''m sorry you''re dealing with this! No matter what just repeat to yourself, its just money.

 

[sdevante]

Sue the appraiser for the $4000 loss for his/her negligence in not examining the diamond in various lighting conditions.

LOL.

 

[LD]

Date: 2/24/2010 2:20:53 PM
Author: kristie
NOPE, there is NO RETURN POLICY written online or on the receipt. The only thing written on the receipt is ''All claims and returned goods MUST be accompanied by this bill.''

That is IT on there........

BTW, I paid for it on the and it has to be set, etc. I received it in hand on the 19th.

I have been SO nice until today I feel like I am losing it........

Ok, I''m in the UK so this may not apply but ................ the wording on the receipt indicates that goods may be returned. So, that''s a starting point. The next part is that you are not stupid. We all make mistakes. You did what you thought you needed to ensure you would ultimately own a diamond you''d love. Very soon after buying it you realised that the diamond didn''t perform how you thought it would for the majority of the time. So, don''t beat yourself up - these things happen. I once bought a house thinking it was my "dream" house which turned into a nightmare.

Although I know you don''t want to do a chargeback, I would most certainly just speak with your credit card company and find out what they could do. You don''t have to start anything but at least get the information.

Also, see what consumer laws are on your side and use them. Do you have a consumer body who can intervene if the vendor still refuses to give you a full refund?

If I posted and said I''d spent over $20,000 on something and was unhappy, struggling to get a refund, what would your advice be to me? Keep on fighting. A good vendor wouldn''t treat you in this manner.

 

[Lestat]

I''m not American so I don''t know how effective these options are, but you could try:

1. Filing a complaint with the BBB http://www.bbb.org/

2. Filing a complaint with the FTC https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/

3. Contact the Jewelers Vigilance Committee http://www.jvclegal.org/Consumers/index.php?categoryid=18

Maybe someone at one of these places can help you come to an acceptable mutual agreement with your jeweler.

 

[Chase035]

Date: 2/24/2010 2:31:23 PM
Author: dreamer_dachsie
I am so sorry for this situation that you are in Kristie. And my comments are not going to be helpful to you, but hopefully will help future consumers.

I do not think that the vendor is at fault in this situation. You neglected to ask about the return policy, or lack thereof. You finalized the sale without receiving the GIA report. You also chose in the first place to go with an SI2 diamond, which is a big risk, one that people should not take without knowing there is an iron clad return period in place.

Sometimes when we make large purchases we take a hit for a bad choice. This might be the hit you take. I know I have taken some in my time. I would follow LittleGreyKitten''s advice and keep pushing for a larger refund. Over the phone or in person if need be. And if they will not oblige, then take the money they will give you and go elsewhere. And buy something lovely that you can live with.

I completely disagree with you. Did they tell you they bought this from another vendor and CLEARLY state that it could not be returned for that reason? Certainly if their normal return policy is 14 days and this stone was not subject to that same policy, that HAS to be stated in writing. If that is the case, a letter should be written to the Better Business Bureau and you should reveal the name of the vendor to us. Furthermore, beyond their legal obligations, this is just poor business practice. You don''t need an MBA from HBS to see that. Although if you get one, they''d tear this company to shreads from a CRM policy perspective.

 

[Chase035]

Date: 2/24/2010 5:50:10 PM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
When the vendor refers to a ''mazal'' as the closure of a deal, it is indeed considered an unwritten rule that one cannot go back on this. However, in reality, mazals are broken constantly, without any repercussion. Granted, it will require some kind of apology, and if it is the first ever deal between two parties, it will not be positive for potential further collaboration.

I disagree however with those stating that the vendor did not do anything wrong. One of his essential roles as a retailer, aside from trying to make a sale, is also to protect his customers. In most cases, this is done by checking quality before delivery, but I can imagine that this is non-existent with a drop-shipper. In the absence of such quality-control, there will be regular situations in which the customer will not be satisfied with the goods delivered. The minimum one can expect then is a minimal return-policy, not a situation in which the vendor is trying to pressure 4K out of the consumer''s pockets.

While I realise that there is little recourse possible, I think that the vendor is at major fault here.

Live long,

Spoken like a true professional. There''s a mountain of marketing research on CRM policies behind this perspective, and Paul''s response is a bulls-eye.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 2/24/2010 7:40:15 PM
Author: Chase035

Date: 2/24/2010 5:50:10 PM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
When the vendor refers to a ''mazal'' as the closure of a deal, it is indeed considered an unwritten rule that one cannot go back on this. However, in reality, mazals are broken constantly, without any repercussion. Granted, it will require some kind of apology, and if it is the first ever deal between two parties, it will not be positive for potential further collaboration.

I disagree however with those stating that the vendor did not do anything wrong. One of his essential roles as a retailer, aside from trying to make a sale, is also to protect his customers. In most cases, this is done by checking quality before delivery, but I can imagine that this is non-existent with a drop-shipper. In the absence of such quality-control, there will be regular situations in which the customer will not be satisfied with the goods delivered. The minimum one can expect then is a minimal return-policy, not a situation in which the vendor is trying to pressure 4K out of the consumer''s pockets.

While I realise that there is little recourse possible, I think that the vendor is at major fault here.

Live long,

Spoken like a true professional. There''s a mountain of marketing research on CRM policies behind this perspective, and Paul''s response is a bulls-eye.

I agree that it is crappy business and wrong from an ethical perspective, but from a legal perspective I don''t know where the onus lies regaring the return policy. Is a company legally obligated to refund goods 100% within a few weeks? If so, this would be useful information for consumers to have. Alternatively, are they legally obligated to disclose said return policy in writing? How obviously must it be declared? Just because the OP did not read a return policy does not mean it does not exist in writing somewhere.

I still think it is buyer beware when it comes to large purchases. It does us as consumers no good to make assumptions or to rely on ethics and risk getting bitten after the fact.

 

[bgray]

A couple of points:
1)The vendor is responsible for quality control per Paul's post but it is not necessarily their responsibility to vet acceptable aesthetics. If the stone was damaged or didnt match a cert, that is a different issue.
2)The vendor bought from a supplier. That is how most do business. There is a lot of inference that there is something wrong with that
3)Buyers have some responsibility before buying. You have someone inspect a house (usually) before buying a house. She had someone inspect her stone and she said okay I am keeping it. Now she discovers something later that she doesnt like. Is that their fault? I guess thats the question. I dont think it is I do think they should help her out by giving her full or nearly full credit but I dont think they have done anything technically wrong.

 

[Chase035]

Legally, not sure myself. But I have a feeling third parties like VISA or the BBB could put enough pressure on the company in a situation like that (where they violate their own return policy without stating the exception in writing) to the extent that the company would lose more than the $4000 hit they think they are taking.

 

[Chase035]

Date: 2/24/2010 8:02:47 PM
Author: bgray
A couple of points:
1)The vendor is responsible for quality control per Paul''s post but it is not necessarily their responsibility to vet acceptable aesthetics. If the stone was damaged or didnt match a cert, that is a different issue.
2)The vendor bought from a supplier. That is how most do business. There is a lot of inference that there is something wrong with that
3)Buyers have some responsibility before buying. You have someone inspect a house (usually) before buying a house. She had someone inspect her stone and she said okay I am keeping it. Now she discovers something later that she doesnt like. Is that their fault? I guess thats the question. I dont think it is I do think they should help her out by giving her full or nearly full credit but I dont think they have done anything technically wrong.

It isn''t about whether it is their fault or not. Certainly if they told her there is no return on this diamond because xyz, they didn''t do anything wrong and are only at fault to the extent that they don''t have the consumers bests interests in mind. However, IF they normally have a certain return policy and, in this case, there is an exception, they have a responsibility to state that to the consumer in writing. Anything less is grounds for a claim to the BBB and reason for the rest of us to avoid this retailer in the future.

 

[512BB]

This is the reason why I buy almost everything with a credit card. With a credit card, you are buying with the cc company''s money, not your own, so if you get screwed, its THEIR money that is getting ripped off so they WILL help you get this resolved. Even if you don''t yet want to do a chargeback, you should call your cc company and tell them what happened and find out exactly what they can do for you. You may even be able to use this as leverage to get most or all of your money back. Being well informed is your best way to get leverage.

 

[bgray]

Date: 2/24/2010 8:22:59 PM
Author: 512BB
This is the reason why I buy almost everything with a credit card. With a credit card, you are buying with the cc company's money, not your own, so if you get screwed, its THEIR money that is getting ripped off so they WILL help you get this resolved. Even if you don't yet want to do a chargeback, you should call your cc company and tell them what happened and find out exactly what they can do for you. You may even be able to use this as leverage to get most or all of your money back. Being well informed is your best way to get leverage.

actually thats not really true....you owe the money unless it s resolved in your favor. I feel there is more to this story we dont know--on both sides.

 

[kristie]

So, I was told today that there is no change in the $$$ part because they said they will NOT lose any money out of this deal.

They said to recoup THEIR costs, THEY have to now sell it to a dealer or supplier "at a price that could not be refused" for them to even get SOME of their money back. I paid $22K for the stone......so that means they are going to sell it for $17-18K to another dealer and I guess that is my $4000 loss.

I agree with those of you that say it is not the vendor's fault but it is also not my fault.

As a business owner though, it is their reputation at stake should I get screwed out of an additional $4000.

I truly see everyone's perspective on this and there really is no 100% right answer. I see both sides logically.

Yes, I could be nasty and do a credit card chargeback but that would burn a LOT of bridges for me with other people and I do not know if that is worth it.

They are promising me that they will help as much as they can and be very fair in finding me a new stone, but at the end of the day, whether I get a refund or a new stone from them, it will be a $4000 loss for ME......they do not seem to be budging from that at all.

The vendor is saying he is shocked that I was happy with my other SI2 and not this one, since he said this one is MUCH better than my other one as far as inclusions......that I do not agree with at all. I could not find any inclusions in my other diamond no matter how I looked at it! Other than a tiny tiny clear crystal in the table when your eye was right next to it and it was tilted just right, could you see it.

 

[sdevante]

Legally speaking...

*THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE CONSULT AN ATTORNEY THIS IS ONLY MY GENERIC OPINION I AM NOT LICENSED TO PRACTICE LAW IN CALIFORNIA BLAH BLAH BLAH*

... most states have enacted some version of the Uniform Commercial Code which governs sales of goods and generally gives the consumer a "reasonable" time to inspect the goods and you have a right to return if the goods are not "fit for the purpose" you bought them for. In other words, there is perhaps an argument that the vendor KNEW you wanted an eye clean engagement ring and then sold you a diamond with inclusions not fit in 50% of the lighting conditions.

Again, I say, small claims court. Consult a local attorney, see if you have a claim, then take this guy to Judge Judy or something. Or just the local small claims court. But I wouldnt let a company screw you over, especially if the return policy is less than transparent.

*AGAIN - that is my general opinion, not legal advice*

 

[Chase035]

Kristie, call your CC company and inquire about a chargeback. Just inquire. See what your options are. Then decide. You have some rights here and your CC company will help to elaborate upon those.

 

[cara]

I am glad Paul chimed in because it is good to know what the standard practices are in regards to unwinding a purchase between people in the biz. Very telling is that the vendor says they will not be losing a dime on the transaction - well, that tells you what they think of their customers and providing them a good outcome. Clearly less important to them than a dime.

I agree with the others that this business model is unwise and somewhat unethical, from the perspective of not setting something up with a high likelihood of screwing over a customer occasionally or at least ending up with a very unhappy one, but I'm not sure its illegal. I guess it depends upon the state, but this is a really good lesson in why going with reputable vendors with good and reasonable policies might be a better decision than trying to go with the cheapest drop shipper.

Utilizing state consumer protection laws can also be quite difficult, for example my mother had an awful lot of trouble utilizing a lemon law in her state to return a car which the dealer had been unable to safely fix in several attempts. Did she get her money back? No way, at best the dealer may have tried to fix the problem a little more thoroughly on their fourth attempt or something but they were going to make her sue them in order to use the legal remedy to which she was entitled (full refund for car after three failed fixes on a major component.) I'm also not aware of BBB that have any teeth. I could be wrong, but I thought they were better as a warehouse for complaints rather than an advocate on behalf of a customer in a pickle.

Anyway, kristie, you can certainly try to escalate this more and I encourage you to drive the hardest bargain you can, but clearly my vote is for some version of take the money (even with $4k hit) and run! Cash out and be done with these people, and buy a nice diamond from some ethical outfit that you can be happy with. Life is too short.