Weight

[cmd2014]

I agree DS, but sex is the glue that holds a marriage together, no?

No. Not in any long term marriages I know, including mine. (All of my married friends have been together 18 years or more, with no divorces in the group). Sex doesn't glue people together, love does.

 

[kenny]

... Sex doesn't glue people together ...

I read in Cosmopolitan that sometimes if you don't wash up after sex, but just fall asleep spooning, you DO wake up glued together.

 

[cmd2014]

... Don't ask me how I know, but sometimes, after sex, if you don't wash up, and just spoon, and fall asleep, you DO get glued together.

Well, yes. That too. Real life isn't sexy in a Hollywood romance type of way, eh? (But that's not the type of glue that I think the OP was talking about).

 

[kylier]

I wonder how many husbands are truly happy with a partner who is clinically obese. I suspect not as many as us romantics would like to believe.

For something you are just suspecting, that is quite a cruel thing to say in a thread where so many have shared positive anecdotes to the contrary.

The six friends (six!) have told me more than I can write out here, and it's been a real eye-opener into the different psychologies and needs of men and women.

Six people in close proximity to you do not make any kind of sample population.

I'm all for unconditional love, but the longer I live and the more I see of life, the more I think it's mostly unrealistic and that unconditional love is what parents have for children.

I've seen a lot of awful parents. I've seen parents abuse their kids, steal from their kids, and treat them in general like property without feelings. Awful people wield awful power as parents. But then again, just because I've been exposed to a lot of bad parents it doesn't really mean anything overall.

Partner love IS conditional. Would you still love your husband if he raped or murdered someone? I doubt it.

I'm pretty sure that my partner wouldn't do those things, but I've known him closely for nine years now. If he did those things, through some extraordinary circumstance like a lobotomy or a psychological disorder, my love wouldn't cease for him instantly. I would love him as I called the police, testified in court and saw justice done. You can love someone and still do the right thing.

Yet so often when men are arrested their mothers are quoted as saying he's a good man and could not possibly have done it, and they proclaim their child's innocence in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. That's unconditional love.

That sounds more like narcissism, to deny the facts in the face of evidence at a cost to victims who may be there. I don't see it as unconditional love. I see it as protecting themselves from blame or guilt and practicing a pleasant delusion to the exclusion of reality.

 

[kenny]

There will never be unanimous agreement on this topic.

There is no single right way, to love.
We all do the best we can and spend a life learning.

 

[cmd2014]

Jambalaya said: ↑
I wonder how many husbands are truly happy with a partner who is clinically obese. I suspect not as many as us romantics would like to believe.

For something you are just suspecting, that is quite a cruel thing to say in a thread where so many have shared positive anecdotes to the contrary.

I think this might be coming from a place of anxiety/insecurity rather than a place of intentional cruelty. I think this reflects a worry that fat/unattractive people aren't worthy of love (and a fear that men don't really find their fat wives attractive or feel love towards them) rather than a belief that this should be so.

My uncle buried his wife of 50+ years this weekend. I can tell you with certainty that he was DEVOTED despite the ravages of long term illness, disability, and despite her weight. He is broken without her. This has nothing to do with sex. It has everything to do with love. I see the same in my husband, in my father towards my mum, in the spouses of my friends. Love is the glue. Not appearance and not sex. (Attraction gets you through the door; love grows over time and keeps you there).

 

[kylier]

Jambalaya said: ↑
I wonder how many husbands are truly happy with a partner who is clinically obese. I suspect not as many as us romantics would like to believe.



I think this might be coming from a place of anxiety/insecurity rather than a place of intentional cruelty. I think this reflects a worry that fat/unattractive people aren't worthy of love (and a fear that men don't really find their fat wives attractive or feel love towards them) rather than a belief that this should be so.

My uncle buried his wife of 50+ years this weekend. I can tell you with certainty that he was DEVOTED despite the ravages of long term illness, disability, and despite her weight. He is broken without her. This has nothing to do with sex. It has everything to do with love. I see the same in my husband, in my father towards my mum, in the spouses of my friends. Love is the glue. Not appearance and not sex. (Attraction gets you through the door; love grows over time and keeps you there).

I think you are right. My condolences to your family.

 

[House Cat]

These husbands are not the majority. They are an anomaly. They didn't really love their wives in the first place. They probably thought they did. A lot of people get married thinking they love another person, but as they age, they find out that they married the person for the wrong reasons. One of those huge reasons might have been looks. Her looks made him feel better about himself. He was proud of her. She was good enough to bring around the friends and marry.

But marriage is hard. It is hard in ways that you could never assume. I thought when people said "marriage is hard," that meant that you fought all of the time and tried to make up. That isn't the case at all. What makes it hard are the ebbs and flows of living with another person. Loving them while growing into different people...much different than when you married. It is holding on for dear life while living life, no matter what it throws at you.

These men were shallow *******s. There is no other explanation. We don't need to explore anything else. They didn't have a deep and true love for their wives. If they did, they woudn't have left for the reason of a few or even 100 pounds. Remember, I said, IF.

Marriages are so, so private. I know for a fact that my best friend doesn't tell me all of the details of her marriage. She and I have known one another since we were 9 years old. We are like sisters in every way. I don't tell her everything about my marriage either.

Back to my original point, we can talk all we want about why these men did it but these men are not "all men." High school boys date for tits and ass that impresses their friends and sooner or later, most of them figure out there is more to a relationship than that.

Unfortunately, there are people in the world who are flawed and emotionally stunted and they get married. Some people never come out of certain issues. These men seem destined to repeat this same mistake on new women, thinking the problem is the woman. Maybe they will learn or maybe when they are 70, they will find a 30 year old to take them in...who knows?

 

[Jambalaya]

I'm questioning everything I thought was a given. I saw these relationships from the start and they were all so in love.

I am also extremely overweight and have been for years. I never really cared that much looks-wise, secure in the knowledge that character is what matters and that most grown-up people know enough not to be so shallow (I thought), but I care about the health implications. Health is why I'm motivated to do something about it (which I have, sporadically).

I thought that anyone past junior high realizes that what really matters is what people are like on the inside. Character, not superficial appearances.

Now I'm wondering if I gave humanity too much credit!

And hearing all that I have done, I'm wondering if being overweight is why I don't get a lot of dates.

I was talking to an acquaintance who lost quite a bit of weight, and she said there was a guy at her work who never took any notice of her, but after she lost the weight he was interested. She said she just couldn't bring herself to go out with him, given that he wasn't interested when she was larger. I would feel exactly the same. She also said that being very overweight was a great a-hole screen, and that she found it difficult to accept the greater share of male attention since she hadn't gotten it when larger, and she felt like they were just interested in her appearance.

If I ever lose the weight, I'll report back on whether I get more dates, but no one hold their breaths as I find it hard to lose weight!

ETA: If I did get more dates when slim, i would definitely have mixed feeling about that, like the person above.

 

[kenny]

I'm questioning everything I thought was a given. I saw these relationships from the start and they were all so in love.

I am also extremely overweight and have been for years. I never really cared that much looks-wise, secure in the knowledge that character is what matters and that most grown-up people know enough not to be so shallow (I thought), but I care about the health implications. Health is why I'm motivated to do something about it (which I have, sporadically).

I thought that anyone past junior high realizes that what really matters is what people are like on the inside. Character, not superficial appearances.

Now I'm wondering if I gave humanity too much credit!

And hearing all that I have done, I'm wondering if being overweight is why I don't get a lot of dates.

I was talking to an acquaintance who lost quite a bit of weight, and she said there was a guy at her work who never took any notice of her, but after she lost the weight he was interested. She said she just couldn't bring herself to go out with him, given that he wasn't interested when she was larger. I would feel exactly the same. She also said that being very overweight was a great a-hole screen, and that she found it difficult to accept the greater share of male attention since she hadn't gotten it when larger, and she felt like they were just interested in her appearance.

If I ever lose the weight, I'll report back on whether I get more dates, but no one hold their breaths as I find it hard to lose weight!

ETA: If I did get more dates when slim, i would definitely have mixed feeling about that, like the person above.

Maybe I'm a shallow A-hole because when single a skinny guy wouldn't catch my eye.
No matter how good his character is, if the spark ain't there then the spark ain't there so it can't advance beyond friendship.
IMO when it comes to romance all parts of the person matter, including how you feel about the appearance of him/her.
Insisting that appearance doesn't matter is pious and unrealistic.

That said, taking a marriage vow changes everything.
Once vowed, you're stuck together till death, no matter what.
If that's a problem don't take such a vow, or change the wording of the vows.

 

[kenny]

IMO when it comes to romance all parts of the person matter, including how you feel about the appearance of him/her.

I must point this out ...
Notice I said, "how you feel about their appearance", not how attractive they are.

This takes into account that beauty is in the eye of the beholder as much as, and perhaps more, than the beheld.

So, if I were to dump my guy because he lost too much weight that would not be an insult to him.
He is not less-attractive, PERIOD!
Also that he is now seen as more attractive to the majority shouldn't make him feel better.
Everyone is someone's type.

Perhaps it should work the same way with gaining weight ... as in, you just became more attractive to a different partner.

 

[Jambalaya]

SonnyJane said:

"You seem very naive/ignorant about marriage to me (ignorant in that there's much you don't know, not an insult of your intelligence)."

Given that I'm divorced, Id say that's an accurate judgement.

 

[Jambalaya]

Re. the above: I have no idea how to do partial quotes on PS, which is why I'm doing it in the style above.

 

[Jambalaya]

Kenny...how about Leonardo DiCaprio in Titanic? He was skinny but, to me, beautiful. If he gave you the come-hither vibes (back then) would you have said no? Just curious, since I've never heard anyone say anything negative about his looks! He seems to have a universal appeal, so...you're the litmus test. Picture this: Cappers in his prime, offering himself to you like, um, a piece of prime rib. What say you?

 

[Jambalaya]

SonnyJane said:

I know SO many marriages, including my own, for which sex is a very minimal factor.

I don't know that much about the majority of my married friends' sex lives, except the ones whose marriages are now in trouble. I certainly don't know how their husbands feel about the sex in their marriages, whether we're talking quality of quantity! Are you really saying that you're privy to how both halves of a couple feel about their sex lives in "SO many marriages"? People must be really open with you!

 

[Jambalaya]

OK, I'm going to play devil's advocate once again:

As women, we believe in unconditional love and total acceptance and being with someone no matter what.

And we assume that we're right.

But why are we right? Why is our insistence that we love a romantic partner through thick and thin more valid than someone prioritizing a frequent, healthy sex life with someone who makes an effort to control those aspects of appearance that are within control? (Bolded because we are controlling for natural changes through age, accidents and disease, as most of the sociological research I've done does.)

My base setting is the above - loving through thick and thin. But I've come to realize through lots of reading that there is another point of view. Us "unconditionalists" are so sure we're right. But the other point of goes goes like this: (paraphrasing)

"If my partner cared about my needs at all, he/she would make more of an effort. I've articulated time and time again that I can't live like this. I'm too young to say goodbye to an exciting sex life. I can't get my legs around him in bed [that one is a true quote]. His/her lack of self-respect is a turn-off. What upsets me is that my feelings don't matter. My needs are cast aside. She/he looks like a totally different person from the one I married, yet I am supposed to be attracted to him/her the same."

If you research this topic, those are the sentiments. I'm sorry, but they are. And there's a study quoted by the Economist that asked 70,000 people if they would leave their partners for gaining weight, and 50% said yes.

I consider myself a die-hard romantic whose dream is to find someone who can see the inner beauty of my soul, and I his, and we will be bonded together forever, no matter what, like two trees standing strong against a raging storm. Seriously, that's what I always imagined true love to be like.

But I have to tell you that it seems there are many, many people out there who don't feel quite that strongly about character trumping all. I'm not so inflexible that I can't see there is a) another point of view and I am not so superior that I consider MY world view trumps all others. If someone wants to spend their short time on earth having a frequent, healthy sex life with someone who makes a reasonable effort to control what they can, appearance-wise, who am I to judge? I want the storm scenario, but it seems there are an awful lot of realists (as opposed to romantics) out there.

That's what I found in my research. Don't shoot the messenger!

 

[Jambalaya]

DS said, regarding the concept of sex bring the glue of a marriage:

No. Not in any long term marriages I know, including mine.

But DS, like SonnyJane, this assumes that you know how both halves of ALL those couples feel about their sex lives. The fact that they're together doesn't tell you anything about the quality of the union.

All I'm saying is that my research contradicts many of the beliefs about love, sex, and marriage that many of us romantics hold dear.

 

[Jambalaya]

Another thing I turned up is that losing a lot of weight after gastric band surgery is also likely to lead to divorce.

It seems it's the change in the person that's the issue, not whether they gain or lose weight.

In other words, someone looking a lot different (by choice) from the one a person married is likely to be seen as a bait-and-switch, whether up or down the scale.

Like Kenny...If Kenny married his big squidgy dream, who then dropped 100 lbs and became a skinny cyclist, he might not be as attracted. And if he's pledged his life to his big squidgy dream, who then became a skinny dream, our hypothetical Kenny might be a) a bit pissed and b) thinking, "I pledged a lifetime to someone who changed and to whom I'm no longer attracted. I can't sleep with anyone else, yet he's not my type now. Holy crap! What am I going to do? I'll never sleep with someone I find attractive again! Heylp!"

And so forth.

I am not saying that this is right.

I am saying that it's reality for many folk, perhaps to those whom a vigorous sex life is important. And that's a lot of folk!

 

[Jambalaya]

I have NO idea how to use the new PS quote system, let alone the partial quote.

So asscherhalo said:

"Oh FFS, there's so much going on here and it's driving me crazy."

This is a REALLY complex topic, much more so than I realized when I started researching. If it drives you crazy, shield your eyes from it!

 

[kenny]

Kenny...how about Leonardo DiCaprio in Titanic?
He was skinny but, to me, beautiful.

To YOU. Not to me.

If he gave you the come-hither vibes (back then) would you have said no?

Yes, I would have said no.
BTW, someone being rich & famous is a huge strike against them when it comes to being appealing to me.
I might make an exception for the late Bob Hoskins.

Just curious, since I've never heard anyone say anything negative about his looks!
He seems to have a universal appeal, so...you're the litmus test.

Jambalaya you are illustrating my very point.
People vary.
Universal appeal?
NOT! ... just as heavy women are NOT universally unattractive.
Beauty, or not, is in the eye of the beholder.
Please let people vary.

Picture this: Cappers in his prime, offering himself to you like, um, a piece of prime rib. What say you?

I say no.
You can have him.
(BTW, I typed but removed words of disgust, as a show of respect for anyone who does find that type of person attractive)

Leo DiCaprio is the polar-opposite of my type ...

 

[Jambalaya]

I feel like a terrier hacking away at a bone, trying to get at the truth and the heart of a matter. I'm not going to let my own romantic views get in the way of staring the truth in the face.

Here's my question:

Does physical beauty matter in love and sex?

If we all gained weight until we were morbidly obese and we stayed that way permanently, can we be sure our partners would love and desire us just the same?

if not, why not? After all, we are the same person inside. They would be sleeping with, talking to, and dining with, EXACTLY THE SAME PERSON.

So why would 50% of 70,000 people say they would dump their partner for gaining weight?

I keep at this because I really don't understand it myself. I can understand the intellectual reasoning, but my heart and soul doesn't want to accept it.

I'm kind of having a crisis - especially since I'm rally overweight myself! Is there no hope for me??

 

[Jambalaya]

Point taken, Kenny.

You and I ain't never going to get in a bar bawl over a man!

ETA: Oh, but what about Cappers these days? He's filled out a lot since Titanic! Forget the fame bit. Would ya?

 

[livannie]

I have been married 11 years and after I had my first baby in 2008, I have struggled with my weight. I have had 3 kids now, my youngest is almost 2.

I have recently lost 35 lbs. I need to lose like 8 more to be in my healthy weight range but I am feeling pretty good where I am at right now.

My husband is constantly telling me how beautiful I am and he hardly ever told me those words before I lost the weight. He calls me his beauty everyday. I love it but I definitely know it has to be because of my weight loss.

It sucks but a lot of people want to be attracted to their spouse physically and physical appearance changes as we age. You just hope that there can be more holding the relationship together as you grow older than just physical attraction because physical beauty doesn't last for anyone.

 

[kenny]

It sucks but a lot of people want to be attracted to their spouse physically and physical appearance changes as we age. You just hope that there can be more holding the relationship together as you grow older than just physical attraction because physical beauty doesn't last for anyone.

Agreed.
I'm still holding on.

If I end this 15-year relationship it won't be for physical/sexual attraction reasons.
It'll be because it's become clear he's self-destructive.

 

[Jambalaya]

Livannie said: (Hi, Livannie!) You just hope that there can be more holding the relationship together as you grow older than just physical attraction because physical beauty doesn't last for anyone.

The nuance of what I have uncovered in my research is not that people have a problem with changes that their partner can't help, such as age or illness, but it's the fact that the person dismisses their partner's needs by not doing anything to control what they can. It seems that the unhappy partner sees this as a blatant disregard for their needs. This would only apply where a partner has communicated their feelings, of course. I bolded the gist of my research above so it's easy to pick out in my long thread.

Yup, the focus on appearance sucks. I totally understand that it sucks how you'd get those compliments from your husband after but not before the weight loss. I'm a romantic who gets that, big-time. He should be saying that all along because, Christ on a pony, you gave him two beautiful kids! I'd like to see HIM go through pregnancy, birth, and total exhaustion and still look like an effing centerfold!

I say ignore it, and just remember that losing the weight means that you're healthier, which means there's a higher chance you'll be around longer to enjoy life with your kids in their adulthood. It's a pity your husband couldn't appreciate the gift of his partner's enhanced health, rather than her looks! Believe me, I get it.

 

[kenny]

You and I ain't never going to get in a bar bawl over a man!

Indeed.

BTW, there are way more men of my type than yours ... "universally-attractive" as you put it.
Neener Neener.

 

[Jambalaya]

Kenny said:

If I end this 15-year relationship it won't be for physical/sexual attraction reasons.
It'll be because it's become clear he's self-destructive.

You're saying almost exactly some of the things I found in my research. That it isn't about looks, per se, but about a lack of respect, and the word "self-destructive" was definitely mentioned at least once.

 

[Jambalaya]

Indeed.

BTW, there are way more men of my type than yours ... "universally-attractive" as you put it.
Neener Neener.

You're just too clever for me!

I do have a type. I like 'em lean and long-legged and coltish...while also wishing that same would accept my heavy self. Yes, I can see the flaw in my logic!

(Found the multi-quote function. Just need to find where they hid the emojis.)

 

[Jambalaya]

Oh, and Kenny? My type outstrips yours if you go young! (Yet still legal, I hasten to add.)

NER!

 

[kenny]

I do have a type. I like 'em lean and long-legged and coltish...while also wishing that same would accept my heavy self. Yes, I can see the flaw in my logic!

Your size and his have NOTHING to do with each other when it comes to attraction.
Everyone just likes whatever they like.
Some like different, some like the same.

Please let people vary.