Teach your daughters not to get drunk

[AGBF]

I have more female friends now than I did back then..strange that a boy raped me, most girls reacted to me like the cat who came back from the vet and smells weird, and it was boys who closed ranks around me, allowing me to learn to work through it. And now it's women that I discuss it w/online.

It really has been a long, hard journey, packrat. I am so sorry that you didn't have a female best friend to be at your side, too. I always had one...all my life. From the time I moved into this neighborhood. (I am currently living with and caring for my 95 year-old father in the house where I grew up. I had a best friend here at 3 1/2 when I moved in.) I always had the solace of women friends to lean on. Of course what I always yearned for is what you have and had in spades: male protection!!!

I am so glad you have thrived!

Big hugs,
(((packrat)))
Deb

 

[telephone89]

Would these men behave the same way if it were a 6'4 250 pound man standing next to them?
Do they look on women as a lower life form?

Absolutely not.
Absolutely yes.

"Hey baby how you doin"
"Oh I have a boyfriend sorry"
"Oh shit, sorry!"

"Hey baby how you doin"
"Not interested, bye"
"Why are you being such a bitch! I'm only paying a compliment" (etc etc)

Men respect other mens claim over a woman more than the woman herself. Men (in general) don't want to disrespect other men, even imaginary ones, but have no problem disrespecting women.

 

[monarch64]

Would these men behave the same way if it were a 6'4 250 pound man standing next to them?
Do they look on women as a lower life form?

Absolutely not.
Absolutely yes.

"Hey baby how you doin"
"Oh I have a boyfriend sorry"
"Oh shit, sorry!"

"Hey baby how you doin"
"Not interested, bye"
"Why are you being such a bitch! I'm only paying a compliment" (etc etc)

Men respect other mens claim over a woman more than the woman herself. Men (in general) don't want to disrespect other men, even imaginary ones, but have no problem disrespecting women.

Nailed it.

"How you doin'?"
"Not interested."
"You're kind of fat anyway."

 

[iluvshinythings]

Laila, I didn't mean to come off as critical of you. I kind of went off topic and on a rant and I'm sorry. I think I responded more to the other threads (about the swimmer and his stupid family and the "joke" that Kenny posted (not mad at Kenny as he didn't make the film, just mad in general about the whole story), etc) than what you posted. I think we both have the same goal and that is to prevent rape from happening through education and awareness.

Matata, thank you for your kind words and showing so much compassion.

AGBF, I think you are brilliant in your thinking and the way you express it with your writing style. I'm so sorry about your friend and I'm glad she moved on and had such a major recovery. It's a testament to her resilience that her own son would have never guessed. In my case, I had a really terrible few years but had lots of therapy and help and life is good now. Like most survivors, I have scars and sometimes react, but it taught me to keep putting one foot of the other and eventually you'll get on a better path.

Rainwood, I'm sorry about your husband. People do say the meanest things and sometimes I don't even think they are aware they are being hurtful. That's a very good insight into human nature and fears. It's true what you said about the value of finding out who you can trust.

ltl, gypsy and azstonie, Thank you for your perspectives on how this could be beneficial for his children. I honestly never thought about it that way.

diamondseeker, You can take partial blame if you want to but I think you were a victim. One of the main points I wanted to make and forgot about was that we should do a better job of sharing that it is rape when a person can't give consent. I see a person who takes advantage of an incapacitated person the same way I see a person who has sex with a child or an animal. It's not sex if the other party didn't consent - it's rape. Children, animals and intoxicated individuals can't give consent. If my step son hears me on one thing ever, I hope it's this. (not that I think he's a potential rapist - but maybe he can stop it from happening to someone else)

packrat, I loved your weird smelling cat after the vet analogy. That's exactly what it feels like. I'm sorry that happened to you and I'm sorry about the way you were treated. I'm glad you found a safe place in the end.

VRBeauty, the story about the grandchild on FB made me want to barf. I feel terrible for that child for so many reasons. To have been raped and it to have been made public is awful. But then to have her mother and grandmother coaching her to say she's okay is just - ahhhhhh - sometimes I want to fling poo at people.

And I almost never talk about what happened to me IRL anymore. My therapy has moved on to other topics.... But this has been cathartic for me too. I haven't been sleeping well and part of it is because all of this has been rattling around in my brain and needed to be released.

{{{hugs to all}}}

 

[MJ_Mac]

I am so shocked and saddened to hear that so many on this forum have been sexually assaulted. My jaw dropped reading all the stories of the survivors.

I have not been sexually assaulted but I was assaulted and bullied by a male co-worker. It was in 1979 and I was a naive 19 year old. He used to slap me on the butt every time I walked by. One day I finally summoned up the courage to tell him not to do that and he grabbed my arm, twisted it to the point where it turned red and burned. He told me through clenched teeth to never talk to him like that again. I reported him to my supervisor (a woman) and the human resources manager in our department. The first question my supervisor asked me was if I did anything to lead him on. I couldn't believe she asked me such a degrading question. Nothing was done and they told me to avoid him the best I could. I learned to recognize his footsteps so when I heard him coming up behind me I would jump and turn around. One time he walked into the woman's washroom by mistake instead of the stairwell. I was just coming out and I asked him what he was doing. He looked shocked and then told me if I told anyone he'd say he caught me with my panties down. This was at the end of the day and most people on our floor had already left. I realized well after the fact I was very lucky that nothing worse happened that day.

I think I must still be quite naive as I didn't realize that sexual assaults were still so prevalent. This thread has really opened my eyes.

 

[LJsapphire]

On the topic of consent :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjPMsjphCUU

Consent explained in the most British Way.


I have a son, he is not old enough yet but I hope that I will be able to teach him not to rape rather than expect someone else to teach their daughter not to get drunk.

 

[rainwood]

Packrat

I wrote a long response last night but my computer ate it like a piece of coconut cake. I'll try my best to duplicate it.

First, I'm so happy you had a group of friends you could trust and rely on when this happened even if it was all guys. Men can be good friends too. I also think the response you got from girls/women when it happened was just a twist on what I was talking about. They were trying to differentiate themselves from you so that the first part was spoken but the second part was all subconscious. My guess is that they say it happened because "you're a slut" is really it happened because "you're a slut" (and I'm not), because "you asked for it" (and I wouldn't) and because "you deserved it" (and I don't). The stuff in parentheses is the subconscious, unspoken part. These people need to come up with a reason why you were raped because if they don't they'd be admitting it could happen to them too, and that's just too scary. I think the same is happening with some women/girls who denied it could have happened. If they acknowledged it happened to you, they'd have to acknowledge it could happen to them too and they're just not willing to do that. None of this excuses what they say because it's awful, awful behavior but it's really more about them and their fears than you. And some of the girls may have just been straight-up mean. That can happen too, especially in high school. So that's what I was trying to say and not linking up the analogies very well. In short, they have to find a reason (it was the victim's fault somehow or it didn't happen) because they're not willing to accept the fact it could happen to them too.

I hope that makes sense. My situation with my husband's cancer isn't the same as what happened to you, but the WTF remarks in both situations come out of the same kind of fear and need for reassurance it couldn't happen to them. And it's ALWAYS the wrong thing to say or think.

 

[rainwood]

rainwood-

I am very sorry for your loss. I do not want to gloss that over, but I had to speak up to tell you what an amazingly insightful woman you are. You really understand how people tick. Usually the people who can understand others as you do are people who have had good psychodynamic psychotherapy themselves, but since you didn't mention having any, you may be one of those rare spirits who can just sit and figure things out by yourself!

God bless you. (And if you are not a Theist, then I send you good thoughts.)

Hugs,
Deb

Thank you, Deb, that is so sweet! I'm not a professional therapist, but to do my very different kind of job well, I have to understand why people do what they do and what they might do next. And it was happening enough that I found it perplexing and gave it a fair amount of thought.

 

[LLJsmom]

I think what you are talking about is a basic safety issue. You tell your children (male and female) not to drink and drive because they might kill themselves or someone else. They might get a DWI and lose their license. If they are drunk, they are more likely to use poor judgment and get in a car with another person who has been drinking. They might pass out and get a head injury. A friend of my older daughter was partying at an apartment with a balcony and she fell to her death in her early 20's. They might be more likely to try other substances because their reasoning is impaired. A friend's son experimented with alcohol and drugs one time when his parents were out of town one night and he died (wonderful family and kids certainly had been taught about responsibility and dangers). They might also end up in a situation like I did, which would never have happened had I been sober. Lots of things can be prevented.

Our last child is in college now. You'd better believe she has been taught about personal safety, and not getting drunk is absolutely a part of that, because getting drunk puts one in all kinds of danger and can have deadly consequences. She also knows not to go places at night alone. We certainly cannot avoid all evil, disasters, or crime, but personal responsibility and wise choices will go a long way in keeping one from harm.

DS, I agree with everything you say. SAFETY FIRST. I know my stance on alcohol is probably very unpopular, but I will teach my children to abstain, for many more reasons than just not being impaired at parties. Impairment can affect so many aspects of your life. There is what they may say, what they may do, which may having nothing to do with sex, the affect alcohol has on the human body. They do only have one liver. I feel the same way about drugs, weed, smoking, etc. Whether they will heed my advice is a whole other question, but it will not deter me from sharing my opinion, experiences and reasoning. I realize I cannot mitigate every risk, but I will try to mitigate some just by practicing safe habits.

My impression is that a certain part of the population looks at women as a whole group of "potential victims" simply because we are women. It makes me so angry. Never walk the street alone? Never step into an elevator with maintenance personnel? Never trust another police officer? Not go to sleep at night by yourself in an apartment? Never step into an apartment alone with a man? Who would or could have ever guessed? NO ONE. ZERO. NADA. THESE WOMEN DID NOTHING WRONG. Yet, they were attacked.

So what is to be done?

short term immediate steps:
I cannot regret having my children train in martial arts. My daughter intends on getting her black belt. She's at green brown now. I've been interested in Krav Maga myself, and if I had the courage, I would like to take classes. If I do, I will definitely have her take classes with me. I hope people won't crucify me for perpetuating the "rape culture" by informing and equipping my kids, but it won't change what I do. As a mother I have to address the realities of the dangers my daughter will face and equip her as best I can. I would not be able to live with myself if I did any less. The same goes for my son. He started martial arts because he was being bullied, and the school was barely addressing it. Instead of a prolonged fight with the administration, we sent him to martial arts, and the bullying stopped. I won't draw any further conclusions except that I am glad we did.

long term steps:
I am going to teach my son not only to respect women, NOT rape, but not even to become intimate with a woman who is impaired, even if there is consent. Wouldn't it be better when both parties are sober? I am reminded of a scene from one of my favorite movies, The Philadelphia Story, with Cary Grant, Katherine Hepburn and Jimmy Stewart. Katherine Hepburn wakes up on the morning of her wedding day, after a night of imbibing, and remembers very little of the details about the night before. From her discussion with Jimmy Stewart, she discovers that he had been drinking with her, and had carried her up to her room and deposited her in her bed, and walked away. She was a little insulted that he had not made a more significant pass at her.

Mike: Kittredge, it may interest you to know that the so-called 'affair' consisted of exactly two kisses and a rather late swim...All of which I thoroughly enjoyed, and the memory of which I wouldn't part with for anything... After which I deposited Tracy on her bed in her room, and promptly returned down here to you two - which doubtless you'll remember.
Tracy: Why? Was I so unattractive, so distant, so forbidding, or something - that - ?
George: Well, this is fine talk, too.
Tracy: I'm asking a question.
Mike: You were extremely attractive, and as for distant and forbidding, on the contrary. But you also were a little the worse - or the better - for wine, and there are rules about that.

Where are these gentlemen? I guess my goal is to train one myself.

 

[D_]

I know from hearing several of my family and family friends speak to their kids, their boys, they use vague language like "respect" of other people, and "danger" instead of being REALLY clear and blunt and saying, "DO NOT RAPE." And saying "THIS IS WHAT RAPE IS."

Look at Monarch's list. Yes, it is partially funny. But it's NOT. THAT'S HOW BLUNT you HAVE TO BE with BOYS.

Do not put shit in someone's drink.
Do not rape someone. Intentionally or unintentionally by not paying attention in the heat of the moment and ASSUMING consent.

Role playing about consent situations is important with children. Modelling what consent does and does NOT look like. It's a hard thing, but it is ESSENTIAL.

This is a level of bluntness and detail that most parents shy aware from. And it is WRONG.

It's really heartbreaking to read the stories here.

I would like to be enlightened a little in relation to Gypsy's post. Let me preface it by saying that rape is wrong and it's never the victim's fault. And I generally agree with the content of the above. It's just that it somehow reminds me of the often related discussion about when women say no it means no - and men should back off right away, that it is black and white, should be clear as day etc.

When saying this, I think people often forget there is a culture (even in this day and age unfortunately) that frowns upon or at least make women feel like it's frowned upon if they are "too receptive" if a man makes a move, which in turn requires women to often say no as though it is a default or "correct" initial response. Then the man would have no choice to try harder and ask again (either right after or some other time) just so the woman can respond without being labeled "a slut", "easy" and the like. I have a close friend whom girlfriend said no when he tried to get intimate, being the nice person he was taught to be he didn't proceed. Much to his surprise, the only reward for his supposed chivalry was having the girlfriend pissed and asking the next day "why didn't you try going further last night?" Now, I would not have mentioned it if it is just a single incidence with one person, but I heard it time and again, many different people, many different instances, many different girlfriends. LLJSMOM just brought up a good example with the movie reference, but the scenario is far from being just a fantasy or make-believe. Granted that any form of non-consensual sex is wrong, many women seem to not want to have any responsibility on even consensual sex. Quite a few female friends imbibe just so they can at least blame it on the alcohol. Especially among the more sexually active women, can they look someone in the eye and really say that they never say or not be at least remotely familiar with variations of the following phrases "oh I don't normally sleep with guys on a first date", "I wasn't myself last night, I must be drunk" etc.?

On that note, if a sober man has sex with an intoxicated woman, it is a rape because one has the capacity to think (at least partially) clearly while the other doesn't. When two drunk people have sex, it is not a rape. I will teach my children to avoid having sex if he/she and/or the other person has consumed excessive amount of alcohol, or even looks a little drunk. A friend of a friend had sex while they were both drunk, the woman reported it as a rape and the man lost his job, was having a really hard time obtaining a gainful employment again, got depressed and committed suicide. I didn't personally know the person so I can't tell which side of story was correct. But discounting the possibility that they both really were drunk or they both were not too drunk and thus it was consensual would do injustice as much as if we were to blame "the victim" (quotation mark because I don't know what really happened). I'm just saying that reading this thread has been an eye-opener and likewise we need to always consider both sides (or all sides for that matter) of each story - not all of them are as black and white as some of the posts here.

I'm an solution oriented person, so what would you suggest a man does when a woman says no given this pervasive culture?

And what is that "women can change their mind at any time" all about? I get the essence of it, but really? Has anyone thought about the practicality of that? For one thing, whoever says that better know how painful getting blueballed is. For another, say a woman wants to stop in the middle of sex, the man should just cease and desist, pull out and feel OK about it? What if the situation is flipped? Dare anyone say "then the same thing should apply, the woman should stop and feel OK too"? I'd say bollocks, because men and women alike often hear all the complaints about women's frustration of not being able to reach orgasms.

Also, men can get raped by women too, but again the culture hasn't evolved to the point that men can feel OK talking about this without being/fearing to be considered a wuss. I inherently do not believe that men want sex any more that women do. Men don't or can't say no when women make advances not because they are lusty bastards, but they may at least not want to hurt women's feelings. People think that men can get scary if they are denied sex, does anyone know how scary women can be when they are denied sex or even as much as feeling rejected? I have empirical evidence too, but that's for another time...

 

[kenny]

When saying this, I think people often forget there is a culture (even in this day and age unfortunately) that frowns upon or at least make women feel like it's frowned upon if they are "too receptive" if a man makes a move, which in turn requires women to often say no as though it is a default or "correct" initial response. Then the man would have no choice to try harder and ask again (either right after or some other time) just so the woman can respond without being labeled "a slut", "easy" and the like ...

Wrong.
The man does have a choice.
He has only one choice ... to listen to her, "No." and stop.

Stating the man has 'no choice' assumes he simply MUST get sex!!!! Period!!!... therefore he has no choice but to keep hounding her.

Now, if she says, "No." but means Yes (hugely dangerously slippery slope/////can of worms there) then she ain't getting any sex and neither is he.
If she want sex but says no, and is frustrated she ain't getting none, she'll just have to negotiate the waters of learning how to say, "Yes.", unambiguously.

Saying no but meaning, "Yes, but I don't want to appear slutty." is a passive-aggressive game that not fair to the man or to the woman.
Neither men or women should play this sex guessing game.


Maybe besides condoms consent forms should be widely available.
Hey, maybe I'll get rich writing code for an ap for that.

 

[azstonie]

I know from hearing several of my family and family friends speak to their kids, their boys, they use vague language like "respect" of other people, and "danger" instead of being REALLY clear and blunt and saying, "DO NOT RAPE." And saying "THIS IS WHAT RAPE IS."

Look at Monarch's list. Yes, it is partially funny. But it's NOT. THAT'S HOW BLUNT you HAVE TO BE with BOYS.

Do not put shit in someone's drink.
Do not rape someone. Intentionally or unintentionally by not paying attention in the heat of the moment and ASSUMING consent.

Role playing about consent situations is important with children. Modelling what consent does and does NOT look like. It's a hard thing, but it is ESSENTIAL.

This is a level of bluntness and detail that most parents shy aware from. And it is WRONG.

It's really heartbreaking to read the stories here.

I would like to be enlightened a little in relation to Gypsy's post. Let me preface it by saying that rape is wrong and it's never the victim's fault. And I generally agree with the content of the above. It's just that it somehow reminds me of the often related discussion about when women say no it means no - and men should back off right away, that it is black and white, should be clear as day etc.

When saying this, I think people often forget there is a culture (even in this day and age unfortunately) that frowns upon or at least make women feel like it's frowned upon if they are "too receptive" if a man makes a move, which in turn requires women to often say no as though it is a default or "correct" initial response. Then the man would have no choice to try harder and ask again (either right after or some other time) just so the woman can respond without being labeled "a slut", "easy" and the like. I have a close friend whom girlfriend said no when he tried to get intimate, being the nice person he was taught to be he didn't proceed. Much to his surprise, the only reward for his supposed chivalry was having the girlfriend pissed and asking the next day "why didn't you try going further last night?" Now, I would not have mentioned it if it is just a single incidence with one person, but I heard it time and again, many different people, many different instances, many different girlfriends. LLJSMOM just brought up a good example with the movie reference, but the scenario is far from being just a fantasy or make-believe. Granted that any form of non-consensual sex is wrong, many women seem to not want to have any responsibility on even consensual sex. Quite a few female friends imbibe just so they can at least blame it on the alcohol. Especially among the more sexually active women, can they look someone in the eye and really say that they never say or not be at least remotely familiar with variations of the following phrases "oh I don't normally sleep with guys on a first date", "I wasn't myself last night, I must be drunk" etc.?

On that note, if a sober man has sex with an intoxicated woman, it is a rape because one has the capacity to think (at least partially) clearly while the other doesn't. When two drunk people have sex, it is not a rape. I will teach my children to avoid having sex if he/she and/or the other person has consumed excessive amount of alcohol, or even looks a little drunk. A friend of a friend had sex while they were both drunk, the woman reported it as a rape and the man lost his job, was having a really hard time obtaining a gainful employment again, got depressed and committed suicide. I didn't personally know the person so I can't tell which side of story was correct. But discounting the possibility that they both really were drunk or they both were not too drunk and thus it was consensual would do injustice as much as if we were to blame "the victim" (quotation mark because I don't know what really happened). I'm just saying that reading this thread has been an eye-opener and likewise we need to always consider both sides (or all sides for that matter) of each story - not all of them are as black and white as some of the posts here.

I'm an solution oriented person, so what would you suggest a man does when a woman says no given this pervasive culture?

And what is that "women can change their mind at any time" all about? I get the essence of it, but really? Has anyone thought about the practicality of that? For one thing, whoever says that better know how painful getting blueballed is. For another, say a woman wants to stop in the middle of sex, the man should just cease and desist, pull out and feel OK about it? What if the situation is flipped? Dare anyone say "then the same thing should apply, the woman should stop and feel OK too"? I'd say bollocks, because men and women alike often hear all the complaints about women's frustration of not being able to reach orgasms.

Also, men can get raped by women too, but again the culture hasn't evolved to the point that men can feel OK talking about this without being/fearing to be considered a wuss. I inherently do not believe that men want sex any more that women do. Men don't or can't say no when women make advances not because they are lusty bastards, but they may at least not want to hurt women's feelings. People think that men can get scary if they are denied sex, does anyone know how scary women can be when they are denied sex or even as much as feeling rejected? I have empirical evidence too, but that's for another time...

Please print your post on this thread to give to women who date you. It'll save time and angst all around.

(I'm actually assuming this post is a prank, especially the last 2 paragraphs.)

 

[lovedogs]

I know from hearing several of my family and family friends speak to their kids, their boys, they use vague language like "respect" of other people, and "danger" instead of being REALLY clear and blunt and saying, "DO NOT RAPE." And saying "THIS IS WHAT RAPE IS."

Look at Monarch's list. Yes, it is partially funny. But it's NOT. THAT'S HOW BLUNT you HAVE TO BE with BOYS.

Do not put shit in someone's drink.
Do not rape someone. Intentionally or unintentionally by not paying attention in the heat of the moment and ASSUMING consent.

Role playing about consent situations is important with children. Modelling what consent does and does NOT look like. It's a hard thing, but it is ESSENTIAL.

This is a level of bluntness and detail that most parents shy aware from. And it is WRONG.

It's really heartbreaking to read the stories here.

I would like to be enlightened a little in relation to Gypsy's post. Let me preface it by saying that rape is wrong and it's never the victim's fault. And I generally agree with the content of the above. It's just that it somehow reminds me of the often related discussion about when women say no it means no - and men should back off right away, that it is black and white, should be clear as day etc.

When saying this, I think people often forget there is a culture (even in this day and age unfortunately) that frowns upon or at least make women feel like it's frowned upon if they are "too receptive" if a man makes a move, which in turn requires women to often say no as though it is a default or "correct" initial response. Then the man would have no choice to try harder and ask again (either right after or some other time) just so the woman can respond without being labeled "a slut", "easy" and the like. I have a close friend whom girlfriend said no when he tried to get intimate, being the nice person he was taught to be he didn't proceed. Much to his surprise, the only reward for his supposed chivalry was having the girlfriend pissed and asking the next day "why didn't you try going further last night?" Now, I would not have mentioned it if it is just a single incidence with one person, but I heard it time and again, many different people, many different instances, many different girlfriends. LLJSMOM just brought up a good example with the movie reference, but the scenario is far from being just a fantasy or make-believe. Granted that any form of non-consensual sex is wrong, many women seem to not want to have any responsibility on even consensual sex. Quite a few female friends imbibe just so they can at least blame it on the alcohol. Especially among the more sexually active women, can they look someone in the eye and really say that they never say or not be at least remotely familiar with variations of the following phrases "oh I don't normally sleep with guys on a first date", "I wasn't myself last night, I must be drunk" etc.?

On that note, if a sober man has sex with an intoxicated woman, it is a rape because one has the capacity to think (at least partially) clearly while the other doesn't. When two drunk people have sex, it is not a rape. I will teach my children to avoid having sex if he/she and/or the other person has consumed excessive amount of alcohol, or even looks a little drunk. A friend of a friend had sex while they were both drunk, the woman reported it as a rape and the man lost his job, was having a really hard time obtaining a gainful employment again, got depressed and committed suicide. I didn't personally know the person so I can't tell which side of story was correct. But discounting the possibility that they both really were drunk or they both were not too drunk and thus it was consensual would do injustice as much as if we were to blame "the victim" (quotation mark because I don't know what really happened). I'm just saying that reading this thread has been an eye-opener and likewise we need to always consider both sides (or all sides for that matter) of each story - not all of them are as black and white as some of the posts here.

I'm an solution oriented person, so what would you suggest a man does when a woman says no given this pervasive culture?

And what is that "women can change their mind at any time" all about? I get the essence of it, but really? Has anyone thought about the practicality of that? For one thing, whoever says that better know how painful getting blueballed is. For another, say a woman wants to stop in the middle of sex, the man should just cease and desist, pull out and feel OK about it? What if the situation is flipped? Dare anyone say "then the same thing should apply, the woman should stop and feel OK too"? I'd say bollocks, because men and women alike often hear all the complaints about women's frustration of not being able to reach orgasms.

Also, men can get raped by women too, but again the culture hasn't evolved to the point that men can feel OK talking about this without being/fearing to be considered a wuss. I inherently do not believe that men want sex any more that women do. Men don't or can't say no when women make advances not because they are lusty bastards, but they may at least not want to hurt women's feelings. People think that men can get scary if they are denied sex, does anyone know how scary women can be when they are denied sex or even as much as feeling rejected? I have empirical evidence too, but that's for another time...

Are you freaking serious? I cannot even begin to explain how offensive this is and why. I have to hope this is a joke or troll post.

 

[MisterGypsy]

I know from hearing several of my family and family friends speak to their kids, their boys, they use vague language like "respect" of other people, and "danger" instead of being REALLY clear and blunt and saying, "DO NOT RAPE." And saying "THIS IS WHAT RAPE IS."

Look at Monarch's list. Yes, it is partially funny. But it's NOT. THAT'S HOW BLUNT you HAVE TO BE with BOYS.

Do not put shit in someone's drink.
Do not rape someone. Intentionally or unintentionally by not paying attention in the heat of the moment and ASSUMING consent.

Role playing about consent situations is important with children. Modelling what consent does and does NOT look like. It's a hard thing, but it is ESSENTIAL.

This is a level of bluntness and detail that most parents shy aware from. And it is WRONG.

And what is that "women can change their mind at any time" all about? I get the essence of it, but really? Has anyone thought about the practicality of that? For one thing, whoever says that better know how painful getting blueballed is. For another, say a woman wants to stop in the middle of sex, the man should just cease and desist, pull out and feel OK about it? What if the situation is flipped? Dare anyone say "then the same thing should apply, the woman should stop and feel OK too"? I'd say bollocks, because men and women alike often hear all the complaints about women's frustration of not being able to reach orgasms.

I had to come on here and post about this, after my wife told me someone had trotted out this load of horsesh*t.

Getting blueballed is uncomfortable. It's not painful. And it's temporary. It's not like there's a blockage, and the boys might blow up if you don't get release. The "oh my balls hurt" excuse has been used by men to take advantage of women who genuinely believe they have caused some sort of harm to a man by changing their mind. It's manipulative bullsh*t, and any "man" should be ashamed of himself if he ever used that nonsense to coerce someone into "helping" him.

As someone who has actually spent large portions of the past five year's in actual pain, it's offensive that you even use the word. I'd take 100 sets of blue balls over any second of the chronic nerve pain I deal with.

This is what you do if the woman you're with has a change of heart. You man the f*ck up and stop what you're doing, because you're not a child who can't handle the little "owie", and later on, if you really feel like you just can't go on with all the "pain", you grab what you need and take care of the issue yourself. Trust me, you'll feel better about yourself the next day. And you know what? Chances are the woman you were with will appreciate it. And you might just get another date . . . because she knows she can trust you. That's what it means to be a man.

 

[LLJsmom]

Granted that any form of non-consensual sex is wrong, many women seem to not want to have any responsibility on even consensual sex. Quite a few female friends imbibe just so they can at least blame it on the alcohol. Especially among the more sexually active women, can they look someone in the eye and really say that they never say or not be at least remotely familiar with variations of the following phrases "oh I don't normally sleep with guys on a first date", "I wasn't myself last night, I must be drunk" etc.?

On that note, if a sober man has sex with an intoxicated woman, it is a rape because one has the capacity to think (at least partially) clearly while the other doesn't. When two drunk people have sex, it is not a rape. I will teach my children to avoid having sex if he/she and/or the other person has consumed excessive amount of alcohol, or even looks a little drunk. A friend of a friend had sex while they were both drunk, the woman reported it as a rape and the man lost his job, was having a really hard time obtaining a gainful employment again, got depressed and committed suicide. I didn't personally know the person so I can't tell which side of story was correct. But discounting the possibility that they both really were drunk or they both were not too drunk and thus it was consensual would do injustice as much as if we were to blame "the victim" (quotation mark because I don't know what really happened). I'm just saying that reading this thread has been an eye-opener and likewise we need to always consider both sides (or all sides for that matter) of each story - not all of them are as black and white as some of the posts here.

And what is that "women can change their mind at any time" all about? I get the essence of it, but really? Has anyone thought about the practicality of that? For one thing, whoever says that better know how painful getting blueballed is. For another, say a woman wants to stop in the middle of sex, the man should just cease and desist, pull out and feel OK about it? What if the situation is flipped? Dare anyone say "then the same thing should apply, the woman should stop and feel OK too"? I'd say bollocks, because men and women alike often hear all the complaints about women's frustration of not being able to reach orgasms.

Did he just say "Practicality"? Would it be more practical for me to steal someone's wallet than to work all day?

I talked to a woman friend of mine today about the prevalence of sexual assault, and she said the same thing the poster above said. I could not believe my ears. Seriously. She is a mother of two boys, around the age of my kids. She said that some women are a tease, implying that teasing would justify rape, and that it's not as black and white. I was soooooo very disappointed. So sad. I saw today, first hand, how "rape culture" is manifested, among women. Oh my goodness. It was just upsetting. We didn't continue the conversation because we clearly had different view points. I'm still sad and disturbed by it. HOW????

 

[LLJsmom]

I know from hearing several of my family and family friends speak to their kids, their boys, they use vague language like "respect" of other people, and "danger" instead of being REALLY clear and blunt and saying, "DO NOT RAPE." And saying "THIS IS WHAT RAPE IS."

Look at Monarch's list. Yes, it is partially funny. But it's NOT. THAT'S HOW BLUNT you HAVE TO BE with BOYS.

Do not put shit in someone's drink.
Do not rape someone. Intentionally or unintentionally by not paying attention in the heat of the moment and ASSUMING consent.

Role playing about consent situations is important with children. Modelling what consent does and does NOT look like. It's a hard thing, but it is ESSENTIAL.

This is a level of bluntness and detail that most parents shy aware from. And it is WRONG.

And what is that "women can change their mind at any time" all about? I get the essence of it, but really? Has anyone thought about the practicality of that? For one thing, whoever says that better know how painful getting blueballed is. For another, say a woman wants to stop in the middle of sex, the man should just cease and desist, pull out and feel OK about it? What if the situation is flipped? Dare anyone say "then the same thing should apply, the woman should stop and feel OK too"? I'd say bollocks, because men and women alike often hear all the complaints about women's frustration of not being able to reach orgasms.

I had to come on here and post about this, after my wife told me someone had trotted out this load of horsesh*t.

Getting blueballed is uncomfortable. It's not painful. And it's temporary. It's not like there's a blockage, and the boys might blow up if you don't get release. The "oh my balls hurt" excuse has been used by men to take advantage of women who genuinely believe they have caused some sort of harm to a man by changing their mind. It's manipulative bullsh*t, and any "man" should be ashamed of himself if he ever used that nonsense to coerce someone into "helping" him.

As someone who has actually spent large portions of the past five year's in actual pain, it's offensive that you even use the word. I'd take 100 sets of blue balls over any second of the chronic nerve pain I deal with.

This is what you do if the woman you're with has a change of heart. You man the f*ck up and stop what you're doing, because you're not a child who can't handle the little "owie", and later on, if you really feel like you just can't go on with all the "pain", you grab what you need and take care of the issue yourself. Trust me, you'll feel better about yourself the next day. And you know what? Chances are the woman you were with will appreciate it. And you might just get another date . . . because she knows she can trust you. That's what it means to be a man.

THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS MISTERGYPSY. I'M SO SAD THAT YOU HAD TO.

 

[Gypsy]

That's why I married him.

I'm going to ignore "D"'s post. Because if I don't I'll no doubt get banned.

LLJ, I have a DB listing still up, I believe. If you wanted to try that out.

As for your 'friend' today. Yeah, unfortunately... that's rape culture right there.

 

[Matata]

The main theme of this thread has been education and communication. Even if D was only half earnest in the post, it's better to educate and communicate in a way that just might help rather than flame the poster.

[.When saying this, I think people often forget there is a culture (even in this day and age unfortunately) that frowns upon or at least make women feel like it's frowned upon if they are "too receptive" if a man makes a move, which in turn requires women to often say no as though it is a default or "correct" initial response. Then the man would have no choice to try harder and ask again (either right after or some other time) just so the woman can respond without being labeled "a slut", "easy" and the like. Women are subject to all sorts of mixed messages about their sexuality, due in large part, to the pervasive objectification of them. It's referred to as the Virgin/Whore syndrome and comes from the Middle Ages when wives were supposed to be virtuous, virgins at marriage, and chaste most of the time within marriage. Their husbands took sexual pleasure outside of the marriage. Sex within the marriage was for procreation only. A tenet that is still deeply rooted in most major religions. If you're interested in the effects of objectification on women today, Google it. Tons of stuff out there to read. So yeah, there are women out there who are conflicted about how they're perceived just as there are women who are confident in who they are. I have a close friend whom girlfriend said no when he tried to get intimate, being the nice person he was taught to be he didn't proceed. Much to his surprise, the only reward for his supposed chivalry was having the girlfriend pissed and asking the next day "why didn't you try going further last night?" Now, I would not have mentioned it if it is just a single incidence with one person, but I heard it time and again, many different people, many different instances, many different girlfriends. LLJSMOM just brought up a good example with the movie reference, but the scenario is far from being just a fantasy or make-believe. The mature thing for a man to do in that situation is to explain that he was taught that "no" means "no" and he was respecting the woman's wishes. And then they should TALK about it and work it out. Granted that any form of non-consensual sex is wrong, many women seem to not want to have any responsibility on even consensual sex. Quite a few female friends imbibe just so they can at least blame it on the alcohol. Especially among the more sexually active women, can they look someone in the eye and really say that they never say or not be at least remotely familiar with variations of the following phrases "oh I don't normally sleep with guys on a first date", "I wasn't myself last night, I must be drunk" etc.? Sounds like you have quite a few female friends with alcohol-related problems. The humane thing to do would be to TALK to them about the potential consequences of drinking so much that they'll jump into bed with someone at the drop of a hat. This doesn't sound like people who don't want to take responsibility for their actions, it sounds like people who are in desperate need of counseling

On that note, if a sober man has sex with an intoxicated woman, it is a rape because one has the capacity to think (at least partially) clearly while the other doesn't. When two drunk people have sex, it is not a rape. It is rape any time one of the people involved says "no" and the other proceeds. No ifs ands or buts about it. I will teach my children to avoid having sex if he/she and/or the other person has consumed excessive amount of alcohol, or even looks a little drunk. A friend of a friend had sex while they were both drunk, the woman reported it as a rape and the man lost his job, was having a really hard time obtaining a gainful employment again, got depressed and committed suicide. I didn't personally know the person so I can't tell which side of story was correct. But discounting the possibility that they both really were drunk or they both were not too drunk and thus it was consensual would do injustice as much as if we were to blame "the victim" (quotation mark because I don't know what really happened). I'm just saying that reading this thread has been an eye-opener and likewise we need to always consider both sides (or all sides for that matter) of each story - not all of them are as black and white as some of the posts here. If she reported it as a rape and a proper investigation was done, along with a physical exam of the woman, then there should be no ambiguity about whether or not it was a rape. Since you have stated that your information is 3rd hand, I can't understand why you would even bring it up. When you repeat information that is inaccurate or for which you do not have 1st hand knowledge, you perpetuate the ignorance that makes rape culture so pervasive.

I'm an solution oriented person, so what would you suggest a man does when a woman says no given this pervasive culture? He should stop. Again, no ifs ands or buts about it

And what is that "women can change their mind at any time" all about? I get the essence of it, but really? Has anyone thought about the practicality of that? For one thing, whoever says that better know how painful getting blueballed is. For another, say a woman wants to stop in the middle of sex, the man should just cease and desist, pull out and feel OK about it? What if the situation is flipped? Dare anyone say "then the same thing should apply, the woman should stop and feel OK too"? I'd say bollocks, because men and women alike often hear all the complaints about women's frustration of not being able to reach orgasms. Mr. Gypsy and Kenny answered this quite well. Both people in this situation can masturbate to a non-criminal conclusion. No one is saying a man or woman has to "feel good" about being told to stop. They can feel as bad they want to but they still have to stop otherwise they will have committed a crime. And a woman's ability or lack of ability to orgasm has nothing to do with rape which is primary topic of this thread. If you want to learn about the physical and emotional factors involved in orgasm for women, you should TALK to women you know about the subject, ask your doctor, and/or read about the subject.

Also, men can get raped by women too, but again the culture hasn't evolved to the point that men can feel OK talking about this without being/fearing to be considered a wuss. I inherently do not believe that men want sex any more that women do. Men don't or can't say no when women make advances not because they are lusty bastards, but they may at least not want to hurt women's feelings. People think that men can get scary if they are denied sex, does anyone know how scary women can be when they are denied sex or even as much as feeling rejected? I have empirical evidence too, but that's for another time...

It's been acknowledged in this thread that men can be raped. If there are men who want to share their stories here, we'll listen. You have what seems to be a shallow and inexperienced view of male-female relationships in general, and sexuality in particular. If your perceptions of either are based on your current social circle, I highly recommend that you expand your circle of friends to include people who are more mature and savvy about being in the world and being in healthy relationships. And educate yourself. Access to information is easy and there's no excuse to stay naive about any of the issues mentioned in this discussion

 

[Gypsy]

One tweak.

The main theme of this thread has been education and communication. Even if D was only half earnest in the post, it's better to educate and communicate in a way that just might help rather than flame the poster.

[.When saying this, I think people often forget there is a culture (even in this day and age unfortunately) that frowns upon or at least make women feel like it's frowned upon if they are "too receptive" if a man makes a move, which in turn requires women to often say no as though it is a default or "correct" initial response. Then the man would have no choice to try harder and ask again (either right after or some other time) just so the woman can respond without being labeled "a slut", "easy" and the like. Women are subject to all sorts of mixed messages about their sexuality, due in large part, to the pervasive objectification of them. It's referred to as the Virgin/Whore syndrome and comes from the Middle Ages when wives were supposed to be virtuous, virgins at marriage, and chaste most of the time within marriage. Their husbands took sexual pleasure outside of the marriage. Sex within the marriage was for procreation only. A tenet that is still deeply rooted in most major religions. If you're interested in the effects of objectification on women today, Google it. Tons of stuff out there to read. So yeah, there are women out there who are conflicted about how they're perceived just as there are women who are confident in who they are. I have a close friend whom girlfriend said no when he tried to get intimate, being the nice person he was taught to be he didn't proceed. Much to his surprise, the only reward for his supposed chivalry was having the girlfriend pissed and asking the next day "why didn't you try going further last night?" Now, I would not have mentioned it if it is just a single incidence with one person, but I heard it time and again, many different people, many different instances, many different girlfriends. LLJSMOM just brought up a good example with the movie reference, but the scenario is far from being just a fantasy or make-believe. The mature thing for a man to do in that situation is to explain that he was taught that "no" means "no" and he was respecting the woman's wishes. And then they should TALK about it and work it out. Granted that any form of non-consensual sex is wrong, many women seem to not want to have any responsibility on even consensual sex. Quite a few female friends imbibe just so they can at least blame it on the alcohol. Especially among the more sexually active women, can they look someone in the eye and really say that they never say or not be at least remotely familiar with variations of the following phrases "oh I don't normally sleep with guys on a first date", "I wasn't myself last night, I must be drunk" etc.? Sounds like you have quite a few female friends with alcohol-related problems. The humane thing to do would be to TALK to them about the potential consequences of drinking so much that they'll jump into bed with someone at the drop of a hat. This doesn't sound like people who don't want to take responsibility for their actions, it sounds like people who are in desperate need of counseling

On that note, if a sober man has sex with an intoxicated woman, it is a rape because one has the capacity to think (at least partially) clearly while the other doesn't. When two drunk people have sex, it is not a rape. It is rape any time one of the people involved says SOMETHING OTHER THAN "YES" including "maybe" or "I'm not sure". YES is the only valid answer. Any other answer means "NO". No ifs ands or buts about it. Or, if one party is sleeping, unconscious, in an altered state of consciousness and/or is otherwise in a state where they cannot give valid consent including, but not limited to: underage, mentally unfit, or in a position that they have no power and the other party has all the power. I will teach my children to avoid having sex if he/she and/or the other person has consumed excessive amount of alcohol, or even looks a little drunk. A friend of a friend had sex while they were both drunk, the woman reported it as a rape and the man lost his job, was having a really hard time obtaining a gainful employment again, got depressed and committed suicide. I didn't personally know the person so I can't tell which side of story was correct. But discounting the possibility that they both really were drunk or they both were not too drunk and thus it was consensual would do injustice as much as if we were to blame "the victim" (quotation mark because I don't know what really happened). I'm just saying that reading this thread has been an eye-opener and likewise we need to always consider both sides (or all sides for that matter) of each story - not all of them are as black and white as some of the posts here. If she reported it as a rape and a proper investigation was done, along with a physical exam of the woman, then there should be no ambiguity about whether or not it was a rape. Since you have stated that your information is 3rd hand, I can't understand why you would even bring it up. When you repeat information that is inaccurate or for which you do not have 1st hand knowledge, you perpetuate the ignorance that makes rape culture so pervasive.

I'm an solution oriented person, so what would you suggest a man does when a woman says no given this pervasive culture? He should stop. Again, no ifs ands or buts about it

And what is that "women can change their mind at any time" all about? I get the essence of it, but really? Has anyone thought about the practicality of that? For one thing, whoever says that better know how painful getting blueballed is. For another, say a woman wants to stop in the middle of sex, the man should just cease and desist, pull out and feel OK about it? What if the situation is flipped? Dare anyone say "then the same thing should apply, the woman should stop and feel OK too"? I'd say bollocks, because men and women alike often hear all the complaints about women's frustration of not being able to reach orgasms. Mr. Gypsy and Kenny answered this quite well. Both people in this situation can masturbate to a non-criminal conclusion. No one is saying a man or woman has to "feel good" about being told to stop. They can feel as bad they want to but they still have to stop otherwise they will have committed a crime. And a woman's ability or lack of ability to orgasm has nothing to do with rape which is primary topic of this thread. If you want to learn about the physical and emotional factors involved in orgasm for women, you should TALK to women you know about the subject, ask your doctor, and/or read about the subject.

Also, men can get raped by women too, but again the culture hasn't evolved to the point that men can feel OK talking about this without being/fearing to be considered a wuss. I inherently do not believe that men want sex any more that women do. Men don't or can't say no when women make advances not because they are lusty bastards, but they may at least not want to hurt women's feelings. People think that men can get scary if they are denied sex, does anyone know how scary women can be when they are denied sex or even as much as feeling rejected? I have empirical evidence too, but that's for another time...

It's been acknowledged in this thread that men can be raped. If there are men who want to share their stories here, we'll listen. You have what seems to be a shallow and inexperienced view of male-female relationships in general, and sexuality in particular. If your perceptions of either are based on your current social circle, I highly recommend that you expand your circle of friends to include people who are more mature and savvy about being in the world and being in healthy relationships. And educate yourself. Access to information is easy and there's no excuse to stay naive about any of the issues mentioned in this discussion

 

[Gypsy]

I'm sorry but while "No means No" SEEMS like good saying, it's not. It is inadequate and misleading.

The conversation with a rape victim should not be "Did you say NO?"

It should be, "Did you say YES?"

And even then context matters. If one of the parties is not able to give valid consent, then no matter what they SAY, there is no consent. It's a bright line. There is no gray.

It seems like a small distinction but it's not. Anything other than a "YES" is NOT consent. You don't have to say No. If you do not say YES, then at is enough.

No gray. Just black and white.

 

[Matata]

Mea culpa Gypsy. I was entirely focused on the posters specifics and lost sight of an important aspect.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

[Gypsy]

Mea culpa Gypsy. I was entirely focused on the posters specifics and lost sight of an important aspect.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

No worries.

 

[D_]

Thank you for responding to my questions, Matata.
I'll try be brief in my response as I had thought that this forum was a safe and respectful place for an exchange of idea and viewpoints. Clearly I was wrong, I'll know better next time. I brought up differing view, so I can learn in the process as well, much like Laila, because sometimes the nuances maybe subtle (i.e. situational awareness vs perpetuating rape culture), but can actually be very different.

In any case, just to be clear - personally when people told me to stop - I stop, so do men in my social circle (at least what they said). It is uncomfortable, but hey we deal with it. It is just frustrating that the same thing doesn't go over as well if the situation was flipped, hell we even got s**t for stopping when they said stop, because they changed their mind so often - they even changed their mind about having changed their mind. We are not mind readers (I don't think anyone is, even if they want to think the contrary) - we use cues, verbal and physical and when they conflict, verbal trumps physical (although it's weird, given that 93% of communication is non-verbal). Also, just to be clear, to respond to azstonie's snide remark, luckily I don't have to deal with such shenanigans in my current long term relationship. But I and a lot of my peers (some of them still are) unfortunately had to go through a lot of those nonsense with multiple people. Maybe I need to change my social circle too, including the female friends. It's just that I feel that this thread (and many other threads) are full of anger directed toward men. Although there are scumbags out there, they are far outnumbered by decent people, not the other way round. A lot of times what women have fought so hard to accomplished are nullified by actions of fellow women, not men. Many subscribe to the school of thought or even preach not to have double standard here, but instead of bringing the pendulum to the centre, it is often swung far to the other end.

Oh, and is that how people have sex nowadays? Instead of letting things flow until either party is told otherwise, people actually say "yes, let's do this"? If that's the case, why not go further and have it written first or sign a consent form like Kenny has mentioned? I actually won't be opposed to that - even better if we include an addendum to the form every time either party changes their mind so there won't be any confusion.

 

[monarch64]

Remember that time we were all just sitting around wishing someone would come and mansplain to us what rape actually is?

ME EITHER.

 

[LJsapphire]

I had to come on here and post about this, after my wife told me someone had trotted out this load of horsesh*t.

Getting blueballed is uncomfortable. It's not painful. And it's temporary. It's not like there's a blockage, and the boys might blow up if you don't get release. The "oh my balls hurt" excuse has been used by men to take advantage of women who genuinely believe they have caused some sort of harm to a man by changing their mind. It's manipulative bullsh*t, and any "man" should be ashamed of himself if he ever used that nonsense to coerce someone into "helping" him.

As someone who has actually spent large portions of the past five year's in actual pain, it's offensive that you even use the word. I'd take 100 sets of blue balls over any second of the chronic nerve pain I deal with.

This is what you do if the woman you're with has a change of heart. You man the f*ck up and stop what you're doing, because you're not a child who can't handle the little "owie", and later on, if you really feel like you just can't go on with all the "pain", you grab what you need and take care of the issue yourself. Trust me, you'll feel better about yourself the next day. And you know what? Chances are the woman you were with will appreciate it. And you might just get another date . . . because she knows she can trust you. That's what it means to be a man.

+1
My thoughts to those comments were "grow up!"

 

[Niel]

please everyone ignore the troll and continue on with your intelligent conversation

Rebuttal is what he's after. Don't feed the beast.

 

[House Cat]

Thank you all for sharing your stories and perspectives. I'm sorry that any of us have been through this and I'm sorry we have to talk about it.

I had many conversations with my daughter about safety and about drugs and alcohol. I never told her that she might get raped if she was impaired, because that's the same as telling her she might get raped if she wears the wrong clothing or goes out at night or any other thing we should all be able to do. It's taking the blame away from the perpetrator and placing it on the victim. Rape doesn't happen because the victim had a lapse in judgment. Rape happens because someone decided to assert their control and will over an unwilling person. The rapist might say that it was consensual and he might even believe that because we are all capable justifying just about anything and society makes it easy in the case of rape by blaming the victim or joking that "boys will be boys" or referring to it as "20 minutes of action" or questioning the victim's sobriety or state of mind.

I don't have a problem with saying that alcohol and drugs impair your judgment. They do. That's accurate. Drinking too much, using drugs or even not getting enough sleep makes you less aware of your surroundings and clouds your judgment. But implying that your child could be the victim of an assault because they are drinking is telling them that they are to blame if it happens.

Until I saw the graphic earlier I thought I was alone in this. I was raped in an elevator. I was at work and went to the bank in the lobby of the building to deposit a check. I was sober. I was dressed appropriately for an office job. I wasn't flirting. I was just going about my day when the maintenance man got on the elevator with me, stopped it and raped me. One minute I was thinking what I needed to do when I got back to my desk and the next moment it was dark and he had me pushed against the side of the elevator pulling my skirt up. I'm glad someone mentioned the fight or flight or freeze. I froze. Later, the police asked why I hadn't screamed (putting the blame on me - even though he had locked the elevator and I couldn't get away) and I didn't have an answer at the time. I was exposed and embarrassed mostly and didn't want someone to get the door open and see me naked I guess. I felt like either way was humiliating and that screaming would have made it worse because more people would have seen my shame. So I froze and I still feel guilty about it. Maybe he would have stopped if I screamed. Maybe not. I wish I knew. I remember telling him to stop and trying to move his hands off me, but my options were limited, I couldn't flee, I was too shocked and terrified to fight so it happened. It was like I left my body and was watching this terrible thing happen to someone else. Thank goodness I was even too shocked to really feel any pain until afterwards. When it was over he re-started the elevator and dropped me off on an empty floor after telling me to get my "sh*t together" and that he'd had a vasectomy. I remember thinking WTF??? A vasectomy? Really? That's the take away from the situation is that I should be grateful to not be pregnant?

You'd think that was as bad as it could get. To be naked in an elevator with a ripped skirt, sore vagina and some bruises, but it got much, much worse. I went to the bathroom and washed my face and hands and looked myself in the eyes and told myself that I was never going to think about this again because it seemed so much easier to try and forget than to try and deal with the situation. That lasted a couple of hours before I started crying and shaking uncontrollably. So I went to the hospital and they called the police. I had to call my ex to pick up our daughter from daycare because I wasn't going to be finished before daycare closed. And I made the mistake of telling him what happened. So later he sued me for custody because I was taking anti-depressants and anxiety meds. I had to borrow money from my parents and cash in my 401k to pay for an attorney to fight the custody battle. It still got worse. I told my supervisor what had happened and he would have found out anyway because the police questioned him about my behavior that day. The police also questioned his supervisor who in turn told several other people I worked with what had happened - what I was "alleging". The rumor got started that I was having an affair with this guy and that I had claimed rape when he wouldn't leave his wife. (I did know who he was - we didn't have any kind of personal relationship) I was put on paid leave until the whole office could calm down and stop talking about it. I was questioned about my sexual history, mental health history, drug and alcohol usage, work history - you name it. I was told that raped are rarely prosecuted in this county unless the DA feels that the case is solid enough so I needed to cooperate. I felt just as violated answering questions from law enforcement as I did in the elevator with my lower half exposed. In the meantime, the rapist failed his lie detector test. The next day he committed suicide. After I finally returned to work, someone called my work phone anonymously to ask me if I was going to be charged with his death. My mother told my then seven year old daughter what had happened to me because my daughter was under the impression that I hated her because I cried all the time.

I say all this because you never know how you will react in a situation. You might think you will fight or try to prevent it. You might or you might not. You might be sober or drunk. You will probably feel guilty. I did. I still do. I work on this daily. There are three children out there without a dad because I called the police. I can't imagine how bad I would feel if I felt like I deserved this because I was drunk and society makes it clear that this makes it the victim's fault. I don't want anyone to ever feel like they deserved it. No one does. I didn't. Sober or drunk. Naked or dressed. Doors locked or windows open. No one should ever have to go through this and as a society we should stop blaming the victim and we should stop further victimizing them. We should get the word out that no means no and that rape is not funny and that it doesn't matter what the victim did.

In my lifetime, drunk driving was okay at one time. Domestic violence was a womens' issue. Because it was the woman's fault for not acting right and obeying her husband. It was okay to slander people who didn't love the kind of people society said they should. Not being paid equally for equal work was okay because women should have a husband to support them anyway. There's still a tiny segment of the population that still thinks that way but it's getting smaller and smaller every day because people are aware and society refuses to tolerate it anymore. I hope rape is the same way. I hope we bring it into the light, take a good look at it and refuse to tolerate any more victim shaming. I hope the perpetrators are punished and society (and judges) stop looking to the victim to stop the crime.

TL;DNR - The victim feels bad enough. Please don't perpetuate the victimization by blaming.

I am so sorry. I wish I could just hug you right now.

That man was an awful human being. You can't be an awful human like that in just one area of life. He would have been awful to his kids too.

I really hope you are healing. I really hope this isn't a part of your daily story anymore...

And shame on your coworkers...!!

Big hugs

 

[SmokeSteam]

Laila619 is it possible to PM you somehow with a question about your Hammered Heart Pendant?

 

[kenny]

Laila619 is it possible to PM you somehow with a question about your Hammered Heart Pendant?

Private messaging is not allowed, or even possible, on Pricescope.

Also, we're not allowed to posting personal contact info like email address or phone number.

It's about security, since it's a site where people discuss the very expensive baubles they have purchased.

 

[SmokeSteam]

Private messaging is not allowed, or even possible, on Pricescope.

Also, we're not allowed to posting personal contact info like email address or phone number.

It's about security, since it's a site where people discuss the very expensive baubles they have purchased.