Teach your daughters not to get drunk

[House Cat]

Gypsy - I'm so sorry you went through that, but I have to thank you for posting not only your experience but your thoughts and reflections on it.

I cringe when I see parents who are constantly taping their kids and asking them to smile/mug/emote whatever for the camera or cell phone. It makes me feel like a curmudgeon, but I hate the thought of those kids growing up and feeling like they need to put on a display for their parents' approval.

Several months ago someone in one of my facebook groups posted that they just found out that her granddaughter, a girl of maybe 3 or 4, had been molested by her father (the parents are separated but the father had visitation rights). Of course there was an outpouring of concern and support.

A few days later the grandmother posted a video of the little girl that was apparently shot by g'ma's daughter, the little girl's mother. The girl is looking right into the camera and smiling, and being coached to say "hi" and "thank you" and "I'm alright." Except that she couldn't quite get the "I'm alright" part out.

I wish I had said something at the time about how inappropriate I thought the video was - making that little girl act and emote and basically put on a display for the needs of the adults around her. I'm sure that it all seemed benign to the women involved, but to me it seemed like implicitly telling that child, once again, that the needs of the adults around her mattered more than her own feelings.

But I'm kind of on the outside of that group and, people pleaser that I am, I didn't speak up.

Gypsy, you've given me the courage (and words) to speak up should I see something like that again.

Sorry for the thread-jack.

What is worse than that is the fact that this grandmother violated her granddaughter's privacy on facebook. The fact that she has been molested by father will be on the internet forever. That grandmother put that information on the internet for HER OWN emotional gain and didn't give a lick of a shit for her granddaughter's feelings.

Then am I reading this right, the grandmother FILMED THE GIRL and put her on the internet, further violating her future privacy? What the hell is wrong with this woman? Has she lost her freakin mind?

The internet and facebook is no place to reveal another person's sexual assault. If someone wants to reveal their own sexual assault, that their choice.

Wow.

 

[monarch64]

Great posts, Gypsy.

Packie, I am so poor at articulating my thoughts on the matter of rape culture because there are so many overlapping ideologies and permeations of gender bias that come up when we are talking about situational awareness vs. if, then statements. But, I am stubborn and will try anyway. So, I think the reason some say rape culture is perpetuated when we teach our daughters not to get drunk is the CONTEXT in which it's brought up. If we were talking about this within the context of "everyone needs to protect themselves by keeping their wits about them, staying sharp, and practicing safe socializing behaviors" then hey, cool, ok, we can all agree on that. If, however, it's brought up because we are talking about it within the context of rape and how to prevent it, and we are not ALSO bringing up the same "don't get wasted" speech to boys/men, it does imply or send the very subtle but still there message that hey, this could be prevented if you would just not drink. See what I'm saying? In and of itself, teaching responsible drinking habits for various reasons is not a perpetuation of rape culture. But using it as something exclusive to the potential victims of rape keeps alive and well that very subtle, squicky idea that just possibly, if one hadn't had too much to drink, they wouldn't be in that situation and they somehow had a small piece of blame for the consequence of their behavior. We know that not to be true, but to be at all unclear about it still leaves room for confusion, and it's not working out so well for us.

TRIGGER WARNING: THIS VIDEO MAY PROVOKE MEMORIES OF SEXUAL ASSAULTS OR RAPE

(I'm trigger warning this video because it's a demonstration of a woman being attacked--in gym setting--in which she uses a choke hold to get out of the attack.) Please share with your friends/family/children, this is a move I have never seen and am so glad someone shared it on FB today!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqRThX9cZGM

 

[CJ2008]

Those are all the things swimming around my mind Monarch that I too find hard to articulate. But you've gotten much closer than I have. You're right it's about context.

To this

"just possibly, if one hadn't had too much to drink, they wouldn't be in that situation and they somehow had a small piece of blame for the consequence of their behavior."

I'd add

"Just possibly, if one hadn't had too much to drink, they wouldn't be in that situation or could have gotten themselves out of it and therefore they somehow had a small piece of blame for the consequence of their behavior."

 

[House Cat]

It is so much more than teaching boys not to rape. You don't say, "now honey, don't rape a girl, ok?" or "rape is bad, ok?" It has so much more to do with the lessons behind consent and sex and what a person IS, personal space, and caring for a PERSON. Rape isn't about sex, it's violent crime that is about power and control. When raising your children, you raise them in a way to never want power and control over one another in a malignant way. You make sure that your love is solidified in their hearts in such a way so that each time they walk out of your house, their hearts are warm with it. They have no emptiness inside... no need to fill their hearts with something dangerous and ****ed up. And I say that because I do believe that kids partake in risky behaviors beyond normal rebellion when they question their parents' love...

I think I had it easier, teaching my boys not to rape because when I revealed that I had been raped, I saw a deep fire of anger burn in their eyes. Boys love their moms and when they learn that their mom had been hurt in that way, something happens inside of them. I would venture to say the lesson is learned at that moment.

My daughter is a badass. I don't know... She's better than anything I could have ever imagined, much better than me.


I was sober for my rape too. What made it confusing and what made me blame myself was the fact that I walked into the guy's house and I liked him. I would have given him sex. Instead, he took it...so violently. My confused thoughts kept me from calling it rape because, well, how can you be raped by someone you like? Then there was the, "it was all your fault because you put yourself in that position" thoughts! It took my husband and then a therapist to confirm that it was rape.

Packrat, your description of being too drunk to fight made my heart hurt. I have heard politicians ask why women don't just get up and walk away from the act of rape, being too drunk is one reason. There is also the mechanism of freezing. Everyone talks about fight or flight, but it is actually fight, flight or FREEZE. Freezing can be a natural response to a traumatizing situation.

The fact of the matter is that we live in a world with predator people. We need to teach our children about this world in such a way that they can be responsible for themselves and protect themselves, but not feel responsible for their attacker's actions if, God forbid, the worst happens. People who have experienced violence need a lot of support. When they don't get the support then need right away, that violent act has a way of settling in and becoming a demon that haunts them for a very, very long time. It has been my observation that the people who are able to get immediate support and who are able to prosecute and win, are the people who tend to get on with their lives in a better way. Those that internalize the act with no retribution have a much harder time.

So, I think that is why I have such a hard time with the way this thread is originally worded. Rape culture is designed to put the responsibility on the survivor and to allow the rapist to justify his actions. There is no excuse for perpetuating this culture. We must find a better way to protect ourselves while keeping the responsibility where it belongs...on the rapist.

((((Hugs to the other survivors))))

 

[packrat]

I get context. We talk to both of our kids about everything, not just London about rape b/c she's a girl or Trapper about whatever b/c he's a boy. There've been instances in the family where a male has been on the receiving end of physical and emotional abuse, and we have discussed that w/them. None of it seems to..."hit home" I guess b/c the things we talk about, they've never witnessed, it doesn't cross their minds that people could or would do that to each other. JD does it actually more than I do, b/c he comes home at times and needs to just sit w/the kids and talk to them about people and behaviors after whatever disgusting thing he's had to deal w/that day. Neither of us is particularly pc about...anything..ever, really. I do tell them that more often than not, for instance, a woman is more likely to be raped by a man than a man to be raped by a woman. Not that it doesn't happen, b/c it does. it's more common for women. It's more common for a man to be the abuser than the woman. Not that it doesn't happen that a woman is the abuser, b/c it does. We use those things to discuss the *why's*. Why do people do these things? Why would a man be less likely to report it? Or even admit that it's happening? What if it happens to you? What if it happens to someone you know? I want to have an open line of communication w/my kids, and I have that right now. I want it to stay that way. I don't hide things or sweep things under the rug or say if you do X, then Y will happen. It could. It could happen if you don't do X. You'll be less vulnerable and more able to protect yourself from those who prey on the weak if you're aware of all possibilities. I'm not going to scare them by telling them that Ted Bundy used to prey upon the kindness of women and pretend to be injured and need help so therefore if they help someone they're going to become a victim. I will tell them to keep awareness and if they start to feel weird to get the hell out of dodge and kindness be damned. There are plenty of ways to prey on people. Walking up to someone and saying you'll help them w/their groceries and they say no and you insist, crowding the person and trying assert your dominance and intimidate them. I want to teach my kids red flags, how to recognize them and how to react appropriately. Sometimes recognizing those red flags and being able to react is inhibited. I will not teach them that if judgement is impaired they are at fault. I will teach them if they are not impaired they are more likely to be able to recognize red flags and defend themselves if need be. I will not teach them that if they are impaired they are going to be a victim. I will teach them that if they are not impaired they are more likely to be able to react. I will not teach them that just b/c you're a girl you shouldn't do x, y, z or just b/c you're a boy you shouldn't do x, y, z. I will teach them to have respect for themselves and others and that you can not expect everyone you encounter to be taught the same things and be just as nice as they. You have to be prepared to deal w/the things people can do and not assume it won't or can't happen to you b/c you're drunk or you're sober, or your house is unlocked or your house is locked. The potential is there, regardless and you need to be able to be prepared and willing to attempt to stop it.

 

[monarch64]

CJ, thank you for that addition. Quick, online discussion is not conducive to writing super coherent, perfectly worded posts for me!

HouseCat, I agree with everything you posted in this thread, esp this last one. I'm glad your daughter is a badass, I hope mine turns out to be, too.

Packie, we are not in disagreement whatsoever. I was fortunate enough to take two women's studies courses in college and I learned SO much about the ways in which society as a whole has very subtle sneaky ways of objectifying women and trying to keep them in their place, so to speak. I am not necessarily in favor of picking apart every single thing and finding ways to compare it to rape culture or find the little details that COULD be interpreted certain ways to say that everyone's out to get women, but it is pretty clear once you see the lines drawn right in front of you how it happens on a daily basis. Even in one of those classes, there were 2 guys in it who were friends with my boyfriend at the time. On several occasions, one or the other of them went to my boyfriend and told him things I had discussed in class in relation not to him specifically, but about random things that could've been related to him. So they used my words in class against me in my relationship. It was very eye-opening. I was seen as some feminist enemy. My boyfriend shrugged it off, like, whatever--they're stupid, but the damage was done and I couldn't even feel safe to share in that class. Our campus had 10k students. Big enough that you'd think you wouldn't have to put up with that crap, but small enough to be just another small community in which you have your usual misogynist shitheads. They didn't have the courage to say what was on their minds in class, nor open their minds to the possibility that yeah, gender bias exists. Discrimination is rampant. Etc., etc. My example is really neither here nor there with regard to our discussion here, but I wanted to share that. I think it's important to share experiences as so many have done here so we can relate on that personal level--hey that happened to you? Me, too, how can we stop it.

I could ramble on all day. Sheesh.

Laila, lastly I want to thank you for starting this thread. I know you didn't mean to come across as victim-blaming or anything like that. I know you have your children's best interests at heart. I think you're an awesome parent, not that my opinion matters. I hope none of my words were offensive to you and that you didn't take anything I said personally. This is also a very personal issue for me and one I am invested in on many levels.

 

[packrat]

See, and I see things a little different as far as "perpetuating" things. Nobody would talk to me about *anything* when I was younger. And after being raped whooooo doggies talk about crickets chirping. (*tap tap..is this thing on?...testing..testing..) I was basically left to fend for myself for years and put shit together on my own, and by gosh n by golly I'll take all the credit for coming to the realization that it was in no way shape or form my *fault*--just as much as I understand that I was in a weakened position and preyed upon b/c of that weakened position. I was taken advantage of by someone who had absolutely no regard or care or respect for me as a person, as a female or as a friend. And here's the kicker--I was drunk and completely unable to defend myself besides feeble "no" "stop" "get off me" "that hurts" and trying to push w/arms that were so disjointed and full of jello they were useless. I was unable to help myself. I could not help myself. I didn't create the situation. But I could not get myself out of the situation. Not even the slightest little bit. I was completely at his mercy and the option of fight/flight/freeze was not there. it was more like hover over yourself and scream inside your head to get your body to react, wake up wake up stop dreaming, and you are physically unable. No control, helplessness, powerlessness-the worst feelings in the world. And then to realize that there's nothing you can do after the fact, the feelings spiral out of control. You can't prove anything. And the "best" thing that could've happened was for a friend of your brothers to come looking for you and find you, during. Who started yelling and shoved the person off and got your pants up and physically carried you back to the main house and announced to everyone what he'd just witnessed. Had that not happened, the person probably wouldn't have even gotten the 6 months of probation he received. When you're drunk and the person's drunk and everyone there is drunk-it's hard to put pieces together. London is 12. I will be *damned* if I'm going to worry about how I talk to her about what happened to me and the after effects of it 26 years later when typing about it that still cause me to feel like the air is sucked out of my lungs and clutching the counter is the only thing that keeps me from going to my knees while I'm trying to make a party pizza for my kids. F uck rape culture. Until the laws are changed and until perceptions are changed, women will be the ones left holding the shortest straw. I refuse to dance around it.

I'll add--males handled my rape better than females. I experienced less judgement, less animosity, less doubt, from the majority of males, than females. It's not just males who have a war on women, in my experience--women are waging a war on each other. Until and unless we can shift how we think and react, it will continue.

 

[House Cat]

I want to teach my kids red flags, how to recognize them and how to react appropriately. Sometimes recognizing those red flags and being able to react is inhibited. I will not teach them that if judgement is impaired they are at fault. I will teach them if they are not impaired they are more likely to be able to recognize red flags and defend themselves if need be. I will not teach them that if they are impaired they are going to be a victim. I will teach them that if they are not impaired they are more likely to be able to react.

I like this, a lot.

 

[CJ2008]

I want to teach my kids red flags, how to recognize them and how to react appropriately. Sometimes recognizing those red flags and being able to react is inhibited. I will not teach them that if judgement is impaired they are at fault. I will teach them if they are not impaired they are more likely to be able to recognize red flags and defend themselves if need be. I will not teach them that if they are impaired they are going to be a victim. I will teach them that if they are not impaired they are more likely to be able to react.

I like this, a lot.

Me too.

I think it takes ALL that detail / explanation to make sure the right message comes across.

 

[Calliecake]

House Cat, So much of how you react in this awful situation is your feeling of what is needed to survive. The more I fought the more violent my attacker became. After the third time of getting my head smashed into the floor with all his force I quickly realized if I continued to fight I would most likely end up dead. I wanted to stay alive so I knew I had to quit fighting. I also told myself that at 90 lbs I was never going to overpower a large man. The detectives told me over and over that I was alive and that meant I did everything correctly. I tried my best to get some of his skin under my nails so the police would know more about what happened if I ended up dead. The detectives could not believe I was able to keep my head during the attack. So much of what a person does during an attack is their instinct. I remember telling my self over and over again to be smart and come up with a plan to stay alive.

Packrat, I felt some of the worst comments came from women too.

 

[iluvshinythings]

Thank you all for sharing your stories and perspectives. I'm sorry that any of us have been through this and I'm sorry we have to talk about it.

I had many conversations with my daughter about safety and about drugs and alcohol. I never told her that she might get raped if she was impaired, because that's the same as telling her she might get raped if she wears the wrong clothing or goes out at night or any other thing we should all be able to do. It's taking the blame away from the perpetrator and placing it on the victim. Rape doesn't happen because the victim had a lapse in judgment. Rape happens because someone decided to assert their control and will over an unwilling person. The rapist might say that it was consensual and he might even believe that because we are all capable justifying just about anything and society makes it easy in the case of rape by blaming the victim or joking that "boys will be boys" or referring to it as "20 minutes of action" or questioning the victim's sobriety or state of mind.

I don't have a problem with saying that alcohol and drugs impair your judgment. They do. That's accurate. Drinking too much, using drugs or even not getting enough sleep makes you less aware of your surroundings and clouds your judgment. But implying that your child could be the victim of an assault because they are drinking is telling them that they are to blame if it happens.

Until I saw the graphic earlier I thought I was alone in this. I was raped in an elevator. I was at work and went to the bank in the lobby of the building to deposit a check. I was sober. I was dressed appropriately for an office job. I wasn't flirting. I was just going about my day when the maintenance man got on the elevator with me, stopped it and raped me. One minute I was thinking what I needed to do when I got back to my desk and the next moment it was dark and he had me pushed against the side of the elevator pulling my skirt up. I'm glad someone mentioned the fight or flight or freeze. I froze. Later, the police asked why I hadn't screamed (putting the blame on me - even though he had locked the elevator and I couldn't get away) and I didn't have an answer at the time. I was exposed and embarrassed mostly and didn't want someone to get the door open and see me naked I guess. I felt like either way was humiliating and that screaming would have made it worse because more people would have seen my shame. So I froze and I still feel guilty about it. Maybe he would have stopped if I screamed. Maybe not. I wish I knew. I remember telling him to stop and trying to move his hands off me, but my options were limited, I couldn't flee, I was too shocked and terrified to fight so it happened. It was like I left my body and was watching this terrible thing happen to someone else. Thank goodness I was even too shocked to really feel any pain until afterwards. When it was over he re-started the elevator and dropped me off on an empty floor after telling me to get my "sh*t together" and that he'd had a vasectomy. I remember thinking WTF??? A vasectomy? Really? That's the take away from the situation is that I should be grateful to not be pregnant?

You'd think that was as bad as it could get. To be naked in an elevator with a ripped skirt, sore vagina and some bruises, but it got much, much worse. I went to the bathroom and washed my face and hands and looked myself in the eyes and told myself that I was never going to think about this again because it seemed so much easier to try and forget than to try and deal with the situation. That lasted a couple of hours before I started crying and shaking uncontrollably. So I went to the hospital and they called the police. I had to call my ex to pick up our daughter from daycare because I wasn't going to be finished before daycare closed. And I made the mistake of telling him what happened. So later he sued me for custody because I was taking anti-depressants and anxiety meds. I had to borrow money from my parents and cash in my 401k to pay for an attorney to fight the custody battle. It still got worse. I told my supervisor what had happened and he would have found out anyway because the police questioned him about my behavior that day. The police also questioned his supervisor who in turn told several other people I worked with what had happened - what I was "alleging". The rumor got started that I was having an affair with this guy and that I had claimed rape when he wouldn't leave his wife. (I did know who he was - we didn't have any kind of personal relationship) I was put on paid leave until the whole office could calm down and stop talking about it. I was questioned about my sexual history, mental health history, drug and alcohol usage, work history - you name it. I was told that raped are rarely prosecuted in this county unless the DA feels that the case is solid enough so I needed to cooperate. I felt just as violated answering questions from law enforcement as I did in the elevator with my lower half exposed. In the meantime, the rapist failed his lie detector test. The next day he committed suicide. After I finally returned to work, someone called my work phone anonymously to ask me if I was going to be charged with his death. My mother told my then seven year old daughter what had happened to me because my daughter was under the impression that I hated her because I cried all the time.

I say all this because you never know how you will react in a situation. You might think you will fight or try to prevent it. You might or you might not. You might be sober or drunk. You will probably feel guilty. I did. I still do. I work on this daily. There are three children out there without a dad because I called the police. I can't imagine how bad I would feel if I felt like I deserved this because I was drunk and society makes it clear that this makes it the victim's fault. I don't want anyone to ever feel like they deserved it. No one does. I didn't. Sober or drunk. Naked or dressed. Doors locked or windows open. No one should ever have to go through this and as a society we should stop blaming the victim and we should stop further victimizing them. We should get the word out that no means no and that rape is not funny and that it doesn't matter what the victim did.

In my lifetime, drunk driving was okay at one time. Domestic violence was a womens' issue. Because it was the woman's fault for not acting right and obeying her husband. It was okay to slander people who didn't love the kind of people society said they should. Not being paid equally for equal work was okay because women should have a husband to support them anyway. There's still a tiny segment of the population that still thinks that way but it's getting smaller and smaller every day because people are aware and society refuses to tolerate it anymore. I hope rape is the same way. I hope we bring it into the light, take a good look at it and refuse to tolerate any more victim shaming. I hope the perpetrators are punished and society (and judges) stop looking to the victim to stop the crime.

TL;DNR - The victim feels bad enough. Please don't perpetuate the victimization by blaming.

 

[rainwood]

I want to thank everyone who has been through this terrible experience for your courage in coming here to tell your story so we will better understand the effect of what we say and do. I learned a lot and need to keep on learning. I understand a little of what you risk in doing that. When I was a child, I almost drowned. I later learned to swim and function around the water just fine. Something like 40 years later, I was learning to dive and ran into a set of equipment problems and my face mask flooded with water. I was instantly back to when I almost drowned and that feeling was just as powerful as the first time even though I wasn't in real danger. So I understand what you risk in coming forward and thank you for being willing to go to that dark, dark place so that we can be part of the change. You are very brave women.

I don't have much I can add except I think I understand why women tend to say the worst things. I don't think it's a woman on woman thing or even unique to rape. My husband had cancer and died of cancer. Both while he was sick and after he died, some people would come up to me and ask me questions about what type of cancer, whether it ran in his family, how we think he got it, etc., and I would be thinking "WTF?" It finally dawned on me that they were trying to distinguish themselves from my DH to reassure themselves not only that they wouldn't get his cancer but COULDN'T get his cancer. It was still an awful, self-centered thing to do but I understood why they were doing it.

Once I saw the pattern, I started to see it in other conversations like when people have had their house or car broken into or someone in their family is really sick or other bad things happen. Those other supposedly well-meaning people want to feel less scared by distinguishing themselves or their loved ones as a way to reassure themselves that it CAN'T happen to them or their loved ones. I'm not an expert, but that's my guess why it's mostly women who say these things. They feel the greater risk and want the most reassurance. And it doesn't in any way excuse such crappy behavior. It's still awful, but I was less bothered once I realized it wasn't about him/us. It was totally about them, and their own fears. And it served to separate the people who were there for me from the people who were there for themselves. Always good to know.

 

[Matata]

I was raped in an elevator. I was at work and went to the bank in the lobby of the building to deposit a check. I was sober. I was dressed appropriately for an office job. I wasn't flirting. I was just going about my day when the maintenance man got on the elevator with me, stopped it and raped me. One minute I was thinking what I needed to do when I got back to my desk and the next moment it was dark and he had me pushed against the side of the elevator pulling my skirt up. I'm glad someone mentioned the fight or flight or freeze. I froze. Later, the police asked why I hadn't screamed (putting the blame on me - even though he had locked the elevator and I couldn't get away) and I didn't have an answer at the time. I was exposed and embarrassed mostly and didn't want someone to get the door open and see me naked I guess. I felt like either way was humiliating and that screaming would have made it worse because more people would have seen my shame. So I froze and I still feel guilty about it. Maybe he would have stopped if I screamed. Maybe not. I wish I knew. I remember telling him to stop and trying to move his hands off me, but my options were limited, I couldn't flee, I was too shocked and terrified to fight so it happened. It was like I left my body and was watching this terrible thing happen to someone else. Thank goodness I was even too shocked to really feel any pain until afterwards. When it was over he re-started the elevator and dropped me off on an empty floor after telling me to get my "sh*t together" and that he'd had a vasectomy. I remember thinking WTF??? A vasectomy? Really? That's the take away from the situation is that I should be grateful to not be pregnant?

You'd think that was as bad as it could get. To be naked in an elevator with a ripped skirt, sore vagina and some bruises, but it got much, much worse. I went to the bathroom and washed my face and hands and looked myself in the eyes and told myself that I was never going to think about this again because it seemed so much easier to try and forget than to try and deal with the situation. That lasted a couple of hours before I started crying and shaking uncontrollably. So I went to the hospital and they called the police. I had to call my ex to pick up our daughter from daycare because I wasn't going to be finished before daycare closed. And I made the mistake of telling him what happened. So later he sued me for custody because I was taking anti-depressants and anxiety meds. I had to borrow money from my parents and cash in my 401k to pay for an attorney to fight the custody battle. It still got worse. I told my supervisor what had happened and he would have found out anyway because the police questioned him about my behavior that day. The police also questioned his supervisor who in turn told several other people I worked with what had happened - what I was "alleging". The rumor got started that I was having an affair with this guy and that I had claimed rape when he wouldn't leave his wife. (I did know who he was - we didn't have any kind of personal relationship) I was put on paid leave until the whole office could calm down and stop talking about it. I was questioned about my sexual history, mental health history, drug and alcohol usage, work history - you name it. I was told that raped are rarely prosecuted in this county unless the DA feels that the case is solid enough so I needed to cooperate. I felt just as violated answering questions from law enforcement as I did in the elevator with my lower half exposed. In the meantime, the rapist failed his lie detector test. The next day he committed suicide. After I finally returned to work, someone called my work phone anonymously to ask me if I was going to be charged with his death. My mother told my then seven year old daughter what had happened to me because my daughter was under the impression that I hated her because I cried all the time.

This is one of the most heartbreaking things I've ever read. Thank you for sharing your experience. It took guts to survive what you did, to fold such a horrific experience into the fabric your life and not be irrevocably shattered by it.

 

[AGBF]

I was raped in an elevator. I was at work and went to the bank in the lobby of the building to deposit a check. I was sober. I was dressed appropriately for an office job. I wasn't flirting. I was just going about my day when the maintenance man got on the elevator with me, stopped it and raped me.

This is one of the most heartbreaking things I've ever read. Thank you for sharing your experience. It took guts to survive what you did, to fold such a horrific experience into the fabric your life and not be irrevocably shattered by it.

Hi, iluvshinythings-

I read Matata's comment first and your story second. I have not been following the thread closely until now. Your story is truly terrible in so many ways, and that you managed to come through it in one piece with the grace to think about your rapist's children amazes me.

A close friend of mine was raped after she left my apartment to walk one block to her own apartment after dinner in New York City when were in graduate school. She was not drunk. She was not dressed inappropriately. I do not recall how she was dressed, except that I remember she had on a camel hair coat. I remember this because I ran over to her building when she called to say she had been raped and two men (both former marines) went over with me. We found her in the kitchen of her apartment naked below the waist, washing her coat in the sink.

My first impulse was to wrap her in the coat, because the men were there and were seeing her naked. But when I tried to put the coat around her, she started to scream. It turned out that the man (who had out a knife to her throat on the street and then forced her into the courtyard behind her building) had raped her on that coat and gotten his semen all over it.

Her son is now in his 30's and she is a grandmother. Her son is from her second marriage. I remember that her son had trouble believing his mother had ever been married before she married his father. When she told him she had been raped once, he really couldn't believe that.

AGBF

 

[azstonie]

I want to thank everyone who has been through this terrible experience for your courage in coming here to tell your story so we will better understand the effect of what we say and do. I learned a lot and need to keep on learning. I understand a little of what you risk in doing that. When I was a child, I almost drowned. I later learned to swim and function around the water just fine. Something like 40 years later, I was learning to dive and ran into a set of equipment problems and my face mask flooded with water. I was instantly back to when I almost drowned and that feeling was just as powerful as the first time even though I wasn't in real danger. So I understand what you risk in coming forward and thank you for being willing to go to that dark, dark place so that we can be part of the change. You are very brave women.

I don't have much I can add except I think I understand why women tend to say the worst things. I don't think it's a woman on woman thing or even unique to rape. My husband had cancer and died of cancer. Both while he was sick and after he died, some people would come up to me and ask me questions about what type of cancer, whether it ran in his family, how we think he got it, etc., and I would be thinking "WTF?" It finally dawned on me that they were trying to distinguish themselves from my DH to reassure themselves not only that they wouldn't get his cancer but COULDN'T get his cancer. It was still an awful, self-centered thing to do but I understood why they were doing it.

Once I saw the pattern, I started to see it in other conversations like when people have had their house or car broken into or someone in their family is really sick or other bad things happen. Those other supposedly well-meaning people want to feel less scared by distinguishing themselves or their loved ones as a way to reassure themselves that it CAN'T happen to them or their loved ones. I'm not an expert, but that's my guess why it's mostly women who say these things. They feel the greater risk and want the most reassurance. And it doesn't in any way excuse such crappy behavior. It's still awful, but I was less bothered once I realized it wasn't about him/us. It was totally about them, and their own fears. And it served to separate the people who were there for me from the people who were there for themselves. Always good to know.

Wholeheartedly agree, Rainwood. Its the reason behind all the shaming, parsing and blaming in the face of tragedy: Oh! Wouldn't happen to my kid, I wouldn't have allowed him in that area/out at night/whatever (Disney alligator attack). The reality is that tragedy happens every day and some is random, some is not.

I was date raped first semester/first year of college. I told no one except later on my first husband, who went to the same college. (I have not told my DH of 20 years and he doesn't follow Pricescope.) I knew I'd be blamed, shamed and ultimately discounted so instead I developed anorexia and serious control issues. Junior year at USC, a police officer tried to grab me off a crosswalk and into his patrol car when I was meeting friends for a matinee movie in Westwood. Thank God for a feisty bunch of women dining outdoors who saw it and stopped it (I fought hard and made a big ass scene). They told me they were Holocaust survivors and they don't ignore $hit.

We have to start identifying ourselves (assault survivors) and rejecting shame and blame in order to halt rape culture in its tracks. Although we all use avatars and screen names, most of you in Hangout 'know' me.

 

[longtimelurker]

I say all this because you never know how you will react in a situation. You might think you will fight or try to prevent it. You might or you might not. You might be sober or drunk. You will probably feel guilty. I did. I still do. I work on this daily. There are three children out there without a dad because I called the police. I can't imagine how bad I would feel if I felt like I deserved this because I was drunk and society makes it clear that this makes it the victim's fault. I don't want anyone to ever feel like they deserved it. No one does. I didn't. Sober or drunk. Naked or dressed. Doors locked or windows open. No one should ever have to go through this and as a society we should stop blaming the victim and we should stop further victimizing them. We should get the word out that no means no and that rape is not funny and that it doesn't matter what the victim did.

In my lifetime, drunk driving was okay at one time. Domestic violence was a womens' issue. Because it was the woman's fault for not acting right and obeying her husband. It was okay to slander people who didn't love the kind of people society said they should. Not being paid equally for equal work was okay because women should have a husband to support them anyway. There's still a tiny segment of the population that still thinks that way but it's getting smaller and smaller every day because people are aware and society refuses to tolerate it anymore. I hope rape is the same way. I hope we bring it into the light, take a good look at it and refuse to tolerate any more victim shaming. I hope the perpetrators are punished and society (and judges) stop looking to the victim to stop the crime.

TL;DNR - The victim feels bad enough. Please don't perpetuate the victimization by blaming.

The person responsible for three kids not having a dad is NOT you, it's the "dad" who was a rapist. NOT your fault. It breaks my heart that you feel guilt for calling the police.

 

[azstonie]

Iluvshiny, rapists are violent and they vent it on anyone vulnerable. You most likely saved those 3 children from more violence at their father's hands. I can only hope he was not also molesting them.

 

[lovedogs]

Wanna teach your daughters something? Teach them to pick good friends. Teach them what consent looks like. Teach them to be strong through your example of strength. Teach them to love themselves through your unconditional love. Teach them to be competent in the world through self defense. But don't teach them that they are responsible for their rape.



Laila, I get what you are trying to say. Don't make yourself vulnerable because the world isn't the safe place we wish it would be. Ever since I was attacked, believe me, I have been hypervigilant. I am thinking there might be a better way to phrase this or to think about this... When you said it on my thread, it went up my spine like an electric shock. I knew what you were trying to say, but as someone who has lived through this...and as someone who blamed herself for years for her rape, this isn't the best way to put this out there.

The title of this thread upsets me whenever I see it. I avoided opening it until now for exactly this reason, because I find it offensive and triggering. Now that I've read (some) of the thread I can see that Laila didn't mean it that way, but it's still upsetting.

 

[LLJsmom]

As I read more and more of these posts, it is hitting home how pervasive this "rape culture" is. My understanding is that it must be ingrained in the culture, that so many "men" (I use the term loosely.) think they have some kind of right to a woman's body, simply because she is female. (I realize I am not addressing the issue for men, which I am sure exists, but I am just not as aware of it.) How else can you explain why so many women, in so many different situations, locations, physical states, are straight up attacked, simply for being a woman. Would these men behave the same way if it were a 6'4 250 pound man standing next to them? Do they look on women as a lower life form?

It is sickening. And I can definitely see how prevention starts by teaching our children, both genders, that people MUST respect other people's person, be it rape or inappropriate contact or physical violence. It is so horrible. Words are completely inadequate.

Thank you to the courageous survivors and the people that have shared their stories here, and every other place. You are making a difference.

 

[azstonie]

Yes, its triggering and upsetting and until this kind of thought process is brought into daylight it'll continue. Obviously, I hit the roof when I read it.

 

[chemgirl]

Ok so tonight I was accused of contributing to rape culture.

I was with a local running group and a girl was complaining about a naked homeless man who hides on one of the trails and then jumps out and tackles women while they run.

I asked where this was so I wouldn't accidentally run into him. Apparently I shouldn't have to avoid the trail. Ok I shouldn't, but I sort of want to now.

The woman who brought it up has been tackled by him 3 times! She reports it to the police every time, he is gone for a while, and then comes back.

3 times!

Yes it shouldn't happen, but shouldn't she take some measures to protect herself? What if it happens again and he has a weapon?

 

[Gypsy]

Yeah, I had nightmares last night.

I was screaming at people, enraged, all night long in my dreams.

It's a recurrent thing with me, when I feel powerless or memories bring up times in my life I've felt powerless.

This kind of thinking makes me feel very powerless. And angry.

I've got to say that you all observing that many men are kinder about rape than women are is totally true. I had carpooled to that city with a male friend (who was visiting separate friends of his own) and when we drove back, he could tell something was wrong and when I started to tell him-- just a bit about it-- he got SO angry he wanted to turn the car around and beat the crap out of the jerkwad. But I was worried about him getting arrested, the jerkwad was from a very affluent family and had a LOT of money. So I toned down the tale and told my friend that I really just wanted to go home.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Laila, I actually get what you mean.

I don't like to give too much personal information on the internet, and I am certainly not proud of mistakes I have made in the past. In college, I went to plenty of parties and drank excessively. Let's just say that I ended up in a situation that I would have never been in had I been sober (and I was a virgin, just FYI). He was drunk, too, and I take equal responsibility for ending up in the situation which some people today would probably call "date rape" since I was in no condition to give consent or resist. PLEASE NOTE that this is vastly different than violent criminal rape that people have reported here. No one is blaming any victims of rape here!

I think what you are talking about is a basic safety issue. You tell your children (male and female) not to drink and drive because they might kill themselves or someone else. They might get a DWI and lose their license. If they are drunk, they are more likely to use poor judgment and get in a car with another person who has been drinking. They might pass out and get a head injury. A friend of my older daughter was partying at an apartment with a balcony and she fell to her death in her early 20's. They might be more likely to try other substances because their reasoning is impaired. A friend's son experimented with alcohol and drugs one time when his parents were out of town one night and he died (wonderful family and kids certainly had been taught about responsibility and dangers). They might also end up in a situation like I did, which would never have happened had I been sober. Lots of things can be prevented.

Our last child is in college now. You'd better believe she has been taught about personal safety, and not getting drunk is absolutely a part of that, because getting drunk puts one in all kinds of danger and can have deadly consequences. She also knows not to go places at night alone. We certainly cannot avoid all evil, disasters, or crime, but personal responsibility and wise choices will go a long way in keeping one from harm.

 

[Gypsy]

Thank you all for sharing your stories and perspectives. I'm sorry that any of us have been through this and I'm sorry we have to talk about it.

I had many conversations with my daughter about safety and about drugs and alcohol. I never told her that she might get raped if she was impaired, because that's the same as telling her she might get raped if she wears the wrong clothing or goes out at night or any other thing we should all be able to do. It's taking the blame away from the perpetrator and placing it on the victim. Rape doesn't happen because the victim had a lapse in judgment. Rape happens because someone decided to assert their control and will over an unwilling person. The rapist might say that it was consensual and he might even believe that because we are all capable justifying just about anything and society makes it easy in the case of rape by blaming the victim or joking that "boys will be boys" or referring to it as "20 minutes of action" or questioning the victim's sobriety or state of mind.

I don't have a problem with saying that alcohol and drugs impair your judgment. They do. That's accurate. Drinking too much, using drugs or even not getting enough sleep makes you less aware of your surroundings and clouds your judgment. But implying that your child could be the victim of an assault because they are drinking is telling them that they are to blame if it happens.

Until I saw the graphic earlier I thought I was alone in this. I was raped in an elevator. I was at work and went to the bank in the lobby of the building to deposit a check. I was sober. I was dressed appropriately for an office job. I wasn't flirting. I was just going about my day when the maintenance man got on the elevator with me, stopped it and raped me. One minute I was thinking what I needed to do when I got back to my desk and the next moment it was dark and he had me pushed against the side of the elevator pulling my skirt up. I'm glad someone mentioned the fight or flight or freeze. I froze. Later, the police asked why I hadn't screamed (putting the blame on me - even though he had locked the elevator and I couldn't get away) and I didn't have an answer at the time. I was exposed and embarrassed mostly and didn't want someone to get the door open and see me naked I guess. I felt like either way was humiliating and that screaming would have made it worse because more people would have seen my shame. So I froze and I still feel guilty about it. Maybe he would have stopped if I screamed. Maybe not. I wish I knew. I remember telling him to stop and trying to move his hands off me, but my options were limited, I couldn't flee, I was too shocked and terrified to fight so it happened. It was like I left my body and was watching this terrible thing happen to someone else. Thank goodness I was even too shocked to really feel any pain until afterwards. When it was over he re-started the elevator and dropped me off on an empty floor after telling me to get my "sh*t together" and that he'd had a vasectomy. I remember thinking WTF??? A vasectomy? Really? That's the take away from the situation is that I should be grateful to not be pregnant?

You'd think that was as bad as it could get. To be naked in an elevator with a ripped skirt, sore vagina and some bruises, but it got much, much worse. I went to the bathroom and washed my face and hands and looked myself in the eyes and told myself that I was never going to think about this again because it seemed so much easier to try and forget than to try and deal with the situation. That lasted a couple of hours before I started crying and shaking uncontrollably. So I went to the hospital and they called the police. I had to call my ex to pick up our daughter from daycare because I wasn't going to be finished before daycare closed. And I made the mistake of telling him what happened. So later he sued me for custody because I was taking anti-depressants and anxiety meds. I had to borrow money from my parents and cash in my 401k to pay for an attorney to fight the custody battle. It still got worse. I told my supervisor what had happened and he would have found out anyway because the police questioned him about my behavior that day. The police also questioned his supervisor who in turn told several other people I worked with what had happened - what I was "alleging". The rumor got started that I was having an affair with this guy and that I had claimed rape when he wouldn't leave his wife. (I did know who he was - we didn't have any kind of personal relationship) I was put on paid leave until the whole office could calm down and stop talking about it. I was questioned about my sexual history, mental health history, drug and alcohol usage, work history - you name it. I was told that raped are rarely prosecuted in this county unless the DA feels that the case is solid enough so I needed to cooperate. I felt just as violated answering questions from law enforcement as I did in the elevator with my lower half exposed. In the meantime, the rapist failed his lie detector test. The next day he committed suicide. After I finally returned to work, someone called my work phone anonymously to ask me if I was going to be charged with his death. My mother told my then seven year old daughter what had happened to me because my daughter was under the impression that I hated her because I cried all the time.

I say all this because you never know how you will react in a situation. You might think you will fight or try to prevent it. You might or you might not. You might be sober or drunk. You will probably feel guilty. I did. I still do. I work on this daily. There are three children out there without a dad because I called the police. I can't imagine how bad I would feel if I felt like I deserved this because I was drunk and society makes it clear that this makes it the victim's fault. I don't want anyone to ever feel like they deserved it. No one does. I didn't. Sober or drunk. Naked or dressed. Doors locked or windows open. No one should ever have to go through this and as a society we should stop blaming the victim and we should stop further victimizing them. We should get the word out that no means no and that rape is not funny and that it doesn't matter what the victim did.

In my lifetime, drunk driving was okay at one time. Domestic violence was a womens' issue. Because it was the woman's fault for not acting right and obeying her husband. It was okay to slander people who didn't love the kind of people society said they should. Not being paid equally for equal work was okay because women should have a husband to support them anyway. There's still a tiny segment of the population that still thinks that way but it's getting smaller and smaller every day because people are aware and society refuses to tolerate it anymore. I hope rape is the same way. I hope we bring it into the light, take a good look at it and refuse to tolerate any more victim shaming. I hope the perpetrators are punished and society (and judges) stop looking to the victim to stop the crime.

TL;DNR - The victim feels bad enough. Please don't perpetuate the victimization by blaming.

This broke my heart too. Into tiny little pieces. I am so amazed at your strength throughout what was a nightmare.

And honey, YOU did not take that man away from his family. HE took himself away when he placed his desire to rape over his responsibilities as a law abiding citizen and as a father.

Additionally, frankly those kids are better off. Whether or not they realize it. You know why? THEY know now what their father is, what he is capable of, and know that the society punishes those crimes. And that is how it should be.

 

[AGBF]

I don't have much I can add except I think I understand why women tend to say the worst things. I don't think it's a woman on woman thing or even unique to rape. My husband had cancer and died of cancer. Both while he was sick and after he died, some people would come up to me and ask me questions about what type of cancer, whether it ran in his family, how we think he got it, etc., and I would be thinking "WTF?" It finally dawned on me that they were trying to distinguish themselves from my DH to reassure themselves not only that they wouldn't get his cancer but COULDN'T get his cancer. It was still an awful, self-centered thing to do but I understood why they were doing it.

Once I saw the pattern, I started to see it in other conversations like when people have had their house or car broken into or someone in their family is really sick or other bad things happen. Those other supposedly well-meaning people want to feel less scared by distinguishing themselves or their loved ones as a way to reassure themselves that it CAN'T happen to them or their loved ones. I'm not an expert, but that's my guess why it's mostly women who say these things. They feel the greater risk and want the most reassurance.

rainwood-

I am very sorry for your loss. I do not want to gloss that over, but I had to speak up to tell you what an amazingly insightful woman you are. You really understand how people tick. Usually the people who can understand others as you do are people who have had good psychodynamic psychotherapy themselves, but since you didn't mention having any, you may be one of those rare spirits who can just sit and figure things out by yourself!

God bless you. (And if you are not a Theist, then I send you good thoughts.)

Hugs,
Deb

 

[gregchang35]

I have nothing to add to the conversation.
I want to thank you each for sharing these painful events that occured. it has opened up my eyes to what can and does occur.

it is just in humane how some men behave and then, how society reacts/ relates to victims of crime.

one can never be too careful and sometimes, we are put into positions that we are helpless.

my heart goes out to all of you and that your healing continues to grow from strength to strength. your sharing here shows that you are stronger than you were yesterday.


BIG HUGS,
xxxx

 

[packrat]

Maybe b/c I was so young, hell, we all were so young,just high schoolers. I didn't get the questions, looking for answers from other girls. It was more along the lines of..you're a slut. I was lying. I asked for it. I deserved it. It was my fault. He was your friend, friends can't rape you. He's such a nice guy, I can't believe he'd do that. It's not fair that he can't be in the wrestling meet this weekend now, how could you do that to him? He's so cute, you're so lucky. At least you're not a virgin anymore.

As an adult, I am grateful, I guess, I don't know what word I'm looking for, for those that ask questions. Not like I go around and announce it or bring it up or anything, but here for instance..it gives me an opportunity to talk about it, to hash it out in my head, it's cathartic I guess in a way?

That many years ago..I don't know, I feel like..there weren't the resources available to adults to have a clue what to do to help a young person dealing w/it. It was still a hush hushy thing-it still is now, but not as bad, people talk about it more at least. I know there are more things available for law enforcement, b/c JD talks about them. We used to have a female officer and JD said he learned a lot from her and admired how she was, especially w/the younger girls, and he's wondered how different it would've been back then if that had been available to me. That's neither here nor there, but I'm glad it's more available now.

I remember talking to my brother about it when we were older and he looked so..just utterly crestfallen that he had not been the one to find me to "save" me, as if he had somehow allowed it to happen b/c he wasn't paying attention. We were high schoolers, completely clueless on what to do, how to handle it, and looked to the adults to guide us. And they were just as "chicken running around w/no head" as we were, so it was just a big mess. And as the victim-the laws pretty much have your hands tied and you're painted in the wrong right off the bat. He told me he felt helpless too. Mom said that as well.

Rape is a scary thing, and I feel as if..it's just so hard to wrap your mind around the fact that someone would exert that power and control over someone else in such a manner that is supposed to be an intimate thing between two people..it's like...sacrilege. And it puts you in this whole different box, you've been violated in such a way, it scares people. Especially kids I think..it's such an "adult" thing (or it used to be, years ago) it sets you apart in not a good way. You're someone to be feared and mocked.

The guy friends that I had at that time, I still have a couple of them, and a few more were added to our "group" the next couple years. That was good for me. The guy who did it was in some ways shunned from our group, so wasn't around. I had my brother and several guys to..surround me, in a way. That's all they knew to do. They were "safe" guys for me. Then JD joined the group. And the guy was shunned even more b/c he hated the guy to begin w/, and hated him more after he found out what he had done. Then the guy died in a car accident, and I still had my group of guy friends, and I "used" them in a manner of speaking, they were my safe haven at parties, in groups, wherever we were. They were "bad asses", my brother was making a name for himself in the area, people left me alone and if I was uncomfortable I returned to them for solace and there was a vibe of "mess w/her and see what happens". It helped me find confidence again, in myself and with boys.

I have more female friends now than I did back then..strange that a boy raped me, most girls reacted to me like the cat who came back from the vet and smells weird, and it was boys who closed ranks around me, allowing me to learn to work through it. And now it's women that I discuss it w/online.

 

[VRBeauty]

Gypsy - I'm so sorry you went through that, but I have to thank you for posting not only your experience but your thoughts and reflections on it.

I cringe when I see parents who are constantly taping their kids and asking them to smile/mug/emote whatever for the camera or cell phone. It makes me feel like a curmudgeon, but I hate the thought of those kids growing up and feeling like they need to put on a display for their parents' approval.

Several months ago someone in one of my facebook groups posted that they just found out that her granddaughter, a girl of maybe 3 or 4, had been molested by her father (the parents are separated but the father had visitation rights). Of course there was an outpouring of concern and support.

A few days later the grandmother posted a video of the little girl that was apparently shot by g'ma's daughter, the little girl's mother. The girl is looking right into the camera and smiling, and being coached to say "hi" and "thank you" and "I'm alright." Except that she couldn't quite get the "I'm alright" part out.

I wish I had said something at the time about how inappropriate I thought the video was - making that little girl act and emote and basically put on a display for the needs of the adults around her. I'm sure that it all seemed benign to the women involved, but to me it seemed like implicitly telling that child, once again, that the needs of the adults around her mattered more than her own feelings.

But I'm kind of on the outside of that group and, people pleaser that I am, I didn't speak up.

Gypsy, you've given me the courage (and words) to speak up should I see something like that again.

Sorry for the thread-jack.

What is worse than that is the fact that this grandmother violated her granddaughter's privacy on facebook. The fact that she has been molested by father will be on the internet forever. That grandmother put that information on the internet for HER OWN emotional gain and didn't give a lick of a shit for her granddaughter's feelings.

Then am I reading this right, the grandmother FILMED THE GIRL and put her on the internet, further violating her future privacy? What the hell is wrong with this woman? Has she lost her freakin mind?

The internet and facebook is no place to reveal another person's sexual assault. If someone wants to reveal their own sexual assault, that their choice.

Wow.

Housecat: The grandma would answer that this is a secret fb group whose members, many of them, have been together for six years. It is a group of mature, trustworthy (mostly) women who have formed very close friendships, and over the years more than a few miscreants have been booted from the group basically because they couldn't be trusted.

Nevertheless, you are absolutely right. It was not appropriate for the grandmother, whatever her motivation, to post this information and video and to take a chance, however slight, that it might be misused or perpetuated. And it's especially wrong when the subject is too young to realistically consent to the posting.

 

[Gypsy]

Gypsy - I'm so sorry you went through that, but I have to thank you for posting not only your experience but your thoughts and reflections on it.

I cringe when I see parents who are constantly taping their kids and asking them to smile/mug/emote whatever for the camera or cell phone. It makes me feel like a curmudgeon, but I hate the thought of those kids growing up and feeling like they need to put on a display for their parents' approval.

Several months ago someone in one of my facebook groups posted that they just found out that her granddaughter, a girl of maybe 3 or 4, had been molested by her father (the parents are separated but the father had visitation rights). Of course there was an outpouring of concern and support.

A few days later the grandmother posted a video of the little girl that was apparently shot by g'ma's daughter, the little girl's mother. The girl is looking right into the camera and smiling, and being coached to say "hi" and "thank you" and "I'm alright." Except that she couldn't quite get the "I'm alright" part out.

I wish I had said something at the time about how inappropriate I thought the video was - making that little girl act and emote and basically put on a display for the needs of the adults around her. I'm sure that it all seemed benign to the women involved, but to me it seemed like implicitly telling that child, once again, that the needs of the adults around her mattered more than her own feelings.

But I'm kind of on the outside of that group and, people pleaser that I am, I didn't speak up.

Gypsy, you've given me the courage (and words) to speak up should I see something like that again.

Sorry for the thread-jack.

What is worse than that is the fact that this grandmother violated her granddaughter's privacy on facebook. The fact that she has been molested by father will be on the internet forever. That grandmother put that information on the internet for HER OWN emotional gain and didn't give a lick of a shit for her granddaughter's feelings.

Then am I reading this right, the grandmother FILMED THE GIRL and put her on the internet, further violating her future privacy? What the hell is wrong with this woman? Has she lost her freakin mind?

The internet and facebook is no place to reveal another person's sexual assault. If someone wants to reveal their own sexual assault, that their choice.

Wow.

Housecat: The grandma would answer that this is a secret fb group whose members, many of them, have been together for six years. It is a group of mature, trustworthy (mostly) women who have formed very close friendships, and over the years more than a few miscreants have been booted from the group basically because they couldn't be trusted.

Nevertheless, you are absolutely right. It was not appropriate for the grandmother, whatever her motivation, to post this information and video and to take a chance, however slight, that it might be misused or perpetuated. And it's especially wrong when the subject is too young to realistically consent to the posting.

Responding to only this conversation of this thread because I actually want to sleep tonight.

AMEN Housecat.

And VR, I am happy my post had a positive effect on you.

I was very much raised the way that grandmother is. So much it's like you are describing my entire childhood. I wasn't a person. I wasn't an adult. I was the family entertainment. To be fair, I was the first grandchild. But the way I was raised was wrong in so many ways. I was a... I don't even know the right word. An extension of them. I wasn't my own being. I was never allowed to be. My preferences and opinions were overridden constantly.

As my therapist once said, most of my childhood was an exercise is cognitive dissonance. I was told one thing. That I was the princess. That I was special. That I mattered. That I was ... all these things. But I was TREATED like an extension of them. I wasn't allowed my own identity. I was shown that I actually DIDN'T matter at all when it came to my family. Their desires and dreams and orders took precedence against anything I wanted for myself.

I was the good child only when I was doing or saying what they wanted. But whenever I tried to asset my own independence I was suddenly being 'influenced badly" or I was being "selfish."

They were the ones that were selfish. SO incredibly selfish. And sadly, most of it was incidental. They just DIDN'T KNOW A BETTER WAY. And they did the best they could. I'll give them that. And I had all the material things. And I was loved. Even if it was incredibly conditional.

Very difficult way to be raised. Lots of therapy to work through too.

I am enraged she would FORCE that child to say she was alright when she had NO WAY OF KNOWING and for her own selfish reasons. The child didn't skin her KNEE. She was sexually molested. By her father a man that is supposed to represent safety to her. She's going to be dealing with the issues of that for years. And if her grandmother doesn't realize that then I'm sorry but she's ignorant as well as selfish. ARGH.....

 

[Gypsy]

Huge typos above and too late to edit. Sorry.