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Teach your daughters not to get drunk

Laila619

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I didn't want to threadjack the other thread, and I think this is a very important topic. Let me make this clear before I say anything else: NO WOMAN EVER DESERVES TO GET RAPED. PERIOD. Now, with that said, why is it so controversial for us to teach our daughters/sisters/nieces that it is simply NOT safe or smart to get drunk in public? In an ideal world, even if a woman were completely black-out drunk, nothing would happen to her and some man or woman would see her home safely where she could sleep it off. But we do not live in an ideal world. There are bad people out there, people who prey on others who are weak, elderly, intoxicated, disoriented, etc. My question is, why is it so controversial to teach women to keep their wits about them, and that when you are drunk you are not able to keep yourself safe because your judgment is impaired? It's just not smart. That doesn't mean a drunk woman deserves to get raped. It means her judgment might have been impaired and she might have gone into a dangerous situation that, if she were sober, she wouldn't. The rapist is always to blame, 100%. But the woman still has a personal responsibility to keep herself safe and not get impaired when out in public. Do you agree?
 

Laila619

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No one would get mad if someone said "We need to teach young women to look both ways before they cross a street, to lock their doors when home alone" etc. It's just common sense to stay safe. So why do people get so angry if someone mentions that getting black-out drunk in public probably isn't the best idea for safety's sake? It's absolutely your right to do it, but it's just not a smart idea.
 

azstonie

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This "keeping their wits about them," aspect of your premise bothers me.

Is it then open rape season on the mentally ill or demented/Alzheimer's or special needs people?

Sure, you'll say oh no, of course not, blah blah blah.

HERE'S A THREAD FOR YOU: TEACH YOUR SONS NOT TO BE RAPISTS
 

telephone89

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I agree, lets teach sons not to rape.

Also - date rape drugs. A woman can have 1 drink, or be drinking 7up all night long and end up with drugs in her drink. By your account, that's probably her fault for not watching her drink closely enough, or perhaps for not taking an 'anti-date rape drug' ahead of time to nullify any potential effects of the drug.

edit - Ok I guess I'm not done.
I bet it's ok for women to be drunk if they're dressed homely. No one wants to f&ck that.
I bet it's ok for women to be drunk if they're unattractive. No one wants to f&ck that.
I bet it's ok for women to be drunk if they're with other men. No one wants to f&ck that.

How about it's ok for women to be drunk and not get raped because theyre human beings? How about it's ok for women to feel safe no matter what theyre drinking, who theyre with or what theyre wearing?

edit 2 - why is this thread not about teaching men not to get so drunk they lose control of their penis? Why is it always the womans fault? Why do we never focus on what a f*cked up person the rapist was? Especially after the Stanford rapist case. I feel so strongly about this. This is just more rape culture.
 

CJ2008

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I'm really pondering over your question laila, and talking it out to myself...

The first thing that comes to mind and heart is that even though drinking is stupid and not very attractive it is something that I should be allowed to do if that's what I want to do. (as long as I'm not driving/putting others in danger).

There's an inherent "judgmental" feel about it...

Because by holding that attitude / viewpoint then what I hear you saying is that if it happened to one of your daughters (so sorry to even think about this like this - knock on wood OMG) you would either secretly or vocally be saying "I told you so." It's judgmental.

That said - when I was younger and I would go out by myself I allowed myself only 2 drinks maximum because I knew it was smarter to not drink, in case. My parents didn't teach me that, I taught myself that.

And having said that...hummm...yeah when I was younger and went out in a group there have been a handful of times that I was...well...let's just say I wouldn't have been able to fight anyone off. :/ let's just say that if one of those nights something had happened to me I couldn't even begin to imagine the shame and rejection I would feel if my mom/friends anyone made me feel as if it was somehow my fault. :blackeye: because in the end that's the message that viewpoint sends...to me at least.
 

telephone89

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Laila619|1466024129|4044454 said:
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/10/sexual_assault_and_drinking_teach_women_the_connection.html
A common denominator in these cases is alcohol, often copious amounts, enough to render the young woman incapacitated.
Another common denominator is a god damn rapist.
 

azstonie

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telephone89|1466025932|4044478 said:
Laila619|1466024129|4044454 said:
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/10/sexual_assault_and_drinking_teach_women_the_connection.html
A common denominator in these cases is alcohol, often copious amounts, enough to render the young woman incapacitated.
Another common denominator is a god damn rapist.
X2.
 

Laila619

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telephone89|1466025293|4044472 said:
I agree, lets teach sons not to rape.

Also - date rape drugs. A woman can have 1 drink, or be drinking 7up all night long and end up with drugs in her drink. By your account, that's probably her fault for not watching her drink closely enough, or perhaps for not taking an 'anti-date rape drug' ahead of time to nullify any potential effects of the drug.

edit - Ok I guess I'm not done.
I bet it's ok for women to be drunk if they're dressed homely. No one wants to f&ck that.
I bet it's ok for women to be drunk if they're unattractive. No one wants to f&ck that.
I bet it's ok for women to be drunk if they're with other men. No one wants to f&ck that.

How about it's ok for women to be drunk and not get raped because theyre human beings? How about it's ok for women to feel safe no matter what theyre drinking, who theyre with or what theyre wearing?

edit 2 - why is this thread not about teaching men not to get so drunk they lose control of their penis? Why is it always the womans fault? Why do we never focus on what a f*cked up person the rapist was? Especially after the Stanford rapist case. I feel so strongly about this. This is just more rape culture.
Sorry we don't live in an ideal world. It should be safe for women to do whatever they want. But unfortunately it isn't. Date rape drugs--again, never the woman's fault. But police officers DO go around telling women that, unfortunately, you have to be vigilant and not leave your drink unattended because there are sickos out there. There are bad people in this world. It's why we have to teach our kids about stranger danger, lock your doors, and on and on.
 

Niel

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This is rape culture.

No, I won't teach my daughter not to drink too much so she doesn't get raped. I'll teach her that it's unhealthy, she might embarrass herself, or make choices shell regret later. But I will not tell her not to drink because she might get raped.

Suggesting women change their lifestyle to avoid rape is rape culture and I won't subscribe to that
 

Laila619

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telephone89|1466025932|4044478 said:
Laila619|1466024129|4044454 said:
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/10/sexual_assault_and_drinking_teach_women_the_connection.html
A common denominator in these cases is alcohol, often copious amounts, enough to render the young woman incapacitated.
Another common denominator is a god damn rapist.
Well, obviously. But what can women DO about it? To protect themselves from it? Teaching some basic safety measures seems like one thing.
 

Laila619

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Niel|1466026363|4044486 said:
This is rape culture.

No, I won't teach my daughter not to drink too much so she doesn't get raped. I'll teach her that it's unhealthy, she might embarrass herself, or make choices shell regret later. But I will not tell her not to drink because she might get raped.

Suggesting women change their lifestyle to avoid rape is rape culture and I won't subscribe to that
What if the convo went like this? "Sweetie, you probably shouldn't drink because it's unhealthy, you might embarrass yourself, you might make choices you'll regret later, and you could possibly end up in an unsafe situation."
 

monarch64

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Wow. Just ...wow. Laila, you live a very sheltered existence if you think this strategy is the answer. What do you propose: that your daughters carry a portable breathalyzer with them and blow every 20 minutes (they make disposable ones, in case you aren't aware)? "Sorry, guys, just have to make sure I'm not getting drunk so I don't get raped."

Do you not see that this is comparable to "teach your daughters to be modest--short skirts mean they are obviously ASKING FOR IT."?

I plan to teach my daughter how to drink responsibly, sure. But I'm not teaching her that IF she gets drunk, THEN she will get raped. Because the absolute truth of the matter is, the rapist is always responsible for causing and executing the rape. Until parents of boys start drilling that into their skulls, until boys understand that other people's bodies are not there for their taking in any state, sober, drunk, high, or otherwise, women are going to continue to be blamed and said to have contributed to their own sexual assaults. This is totally backwards, flawed logic! What is so hard to understand about not raping people?

Perhaps you want to begin again, with, "I plan to take a Women's Studies course so I can learn how to best advocate for myself and my daughter in our patriarchal society." AND/OR "I plan to teach my sons not to rape and that if someone is not sober it is not consensual sex."
 

telephone89

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Laila619|1466026368|4044487 said:
telephone89|1466025932|4044478 said:
Laila619|1466024129|4044454 said:
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/10/sexual_assault_and_drinking_teach_women_the_connection.html
A common denominator in these cases is alcohol, often copious amounts, enough to render the young woman incapacitated.
Another common denominator is a god damn rapist.
Well, obviously. But what can women DO about it? To protect themselves from it? Teaching some basic safety measures seems like one thing.
We as women can petition the courts for harsher sentences for rapists. We can make sure women feel comfortable coming forward after it happens. We can teach our sons, nephews, brothers, fathers, AND WOMEN about consent - what it is, why it's important. We can influence school boards to start teaching consent and proper sex ed. We can stand up when we hear someone talking about a slut. We can tell a construction worker to f*ck off when he whistles at a 13 year old girl wearing a tank top walking down the street.

There are hundreds of things we can do.
 

azstonie

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And I'm not putting a black Hefty bag over my head because my hair could incite something.
 

Laila619

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monarch64|1466026955|4044493 said:
Wow. Just ...wow. Laila, you live a very sheltered existence if you think this strategy is the answer. What do you propose: that your daughters carry a portable breathalyzer with them and blow every 20 minutes (they make disposable ones, in case you aren't aware)? "Sorry, guys, just have to make sure I'm not getting drunk so I don't get raped."

Do you not see that this is comparable to "teach your daughters to be modest--short skirts mean they are obviously ASKING FOR IT."?

I plan to teach my daughter how to drink responsibly, sure. But I'm not teaching her that IF she gets drunk, THEN she will get raped.
I will not tell my daughters that either. I might say something like IF she gets drunk THEN she might have impaired judgment or she might get into an unsafe situation and explain that, unfortunately, there are *******s out there.
 

Niel

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Acknowledging danger is out there is different than what you're proposing. You suggest women change their activities to avoid getting raped. I won't play that game with my daughter. I want her to live in a world she doesn't have to have guilt for the way men treat her.
 

CJ2008

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telephone89|1466027006|4044495 said:
We as women can petition the courts for harsher sentences for rapists. We can make sure women feel comfortable coming forward after it happens. We can teach our sons, nephews, brothers, fathers, AND WOMEN about consent - what it is, why it's important. We can influence school boards to start teaching consent and proper sex ed. We can stand up when we hear someone talking about a slut. We can tell a construction worker to [censored] off when he whistles at a 13 year old girl wearing a tank top walking down the street.

There are hundreds of things we can do.
That's going to the heart of the problem...and making real change.

And we doing enough of this?

I know I'm probably not. I don't think I've ever had a conversation with my niece (in her teens) about it.

But I will.
 

House Cat

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Wanna teach your daughters something? Teach them to pick good friends. Teach them what consent looks like. Teach them to be strong through your example of strength. Teach them to love themselves through your unconditional love. Teach them to be competent in the world through self defense. But don't teach them that they are responsible for their rape.



Laila, I get what you are trying to say. Don't make yourself vulnerable because the world isn't the safe place we wish it would be. Ever since I was attacked, believe me, I have been hypervigilant. I am thinking there might be a better way to phrase this or to think about this... When you said it on my thread, it went up my spine like an electric shock. I knew what you were trying to say, but as someone who has lived through this...and as someone who blamed herself for years for her rape, this isn't the best way to put this out there.
 

Laila619

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House Cat|1466028899|4044512 said:
Wanna teach your daughters something? Teach them to pick good friends. Teach them what consent looks like. Teach them to be strong through your example of strength. Teach them to love themselves through your unconditional love. Teach them to be competent in the world through self defense. But don't teach them that they are responsible for their rape.



Laila, I get what you are trying to say. Don't make yourself vulnerable because the world isn't the safe place we wish it would be. Ever since I was attacked, believe me, I have been hypervigilant. I am thinking there might be a better way to phrase this or to think about this... When you said it on my thread, it went up my spine like an electric shock. I knew what you were trying to say, but as someone who has lived through this...and as someone who blamed herself for years for her rape, this isn't the best way to put this out there.
I'm sorry you had to live this, HouseCat. It's never any woman's fault at all. Unfortunately, we do have to be vigilant. When I'm out alone in public, I look around and walk with my keys in my hand, ready to use them like a weapon if I had to. It would be nice if women could feel safe doing anything and going anywhere, but it's just not reality. MOST men are good and kind I still think.
 

packrat

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I understand what Laila is saying.

In an ideal world..

We don't live in an ideal world. That's a fact. It's a fact that sometimes, no matter how hard we try, shit happens to us. To me, in my eyes, it is better to be cognizant of the fact that something *could* happen, not that if you do X it is a guarantee that Y will happen. It's no different to me, in my eyes, than London learning taekwondo. She's learning to defend herself-not b/c I think there's a boogeyman behind every corner, but b/c there could be a time when she needs to protect herself, and she will hopefully have the training in her head, that her body and mind will just react and revert to the level of training she's had. She needs to have the confidence in herself and her abilities.

Absolutely we should teach our children not to rape, not to attack, not to kill, not to hurt other people. But no matter what we teach our own kids--that doesn't mean everyone is teaching their kids the same thing. That's why we have people that commit those heinous crimes--b/c they're not taught personal responsibility, personal space, to tolerate other people, other people might (well, there's no might about it, since obviously they're out doing the shit) be teaching their kids that they can do whatever they want.

That piece of f uck guy who's dad felt so horrible that he's being punished for "20 minutes of action" is a perfect example. There are people like that in this world and that is a cold hard indisputable *fact*.

Stranger danger--why do we teach kids about this if not to help protect them? That doesn't mean that every person they don't know is out to abduct them or molest them. But some people do. So we teach them.

Bad touches--why do we teach kids about this if not to help protect them? That doesn't mean that every person who touches them is doing so in order to molest them. But some people do. So we teach them. They need to be able to differentiate between touches.

I absolutely teach Trapper that no means no, personal space, everything i can think of. I teach London the same thing. I teach both my kids about defending themselves. Not b/c I think omg they're going to be assaulted at some point--but b/c something *could* happen. I want my kids to be prepared. I don't want them to be so naive that they think that b/c people *shouldn't* do something wrong that they won't. Drivers should be on the look out for pedestrians-that doesn't mean you can just step off the curb b/c they should be looking.

We all should learn personal responsibility--we alone are responsible for our own selves, our own safety, and to assume that we will never be assailed and we can tra la la skip merrily along down that dark alley at 2am knowing full well there could be dangers present, and not be willing and able to defend ourselves isn't very smart.

I was sixteen when I was raped. By someone who was supposed to be my friend. At a party. And I was drunk. So drunk that at the hospital the Dr didn't know why I wasn't in a coma or dead. I tried to defend myself and I was unable to do so. That does not mean in any way shape or form I was in the wrong, of course it doesn't--he was fully capable of stopping when I was pushing on him and saying no. He didn't.

I can't change what happened. It happened. It's over with. But I can do what I can to take control if the situation were to happen again, and I can teach my kids about protecting themselves should a situation arise.

i will do everything in my power to help ensure that I am not a victim again, and that my kids are not victims. However, we can't control other people's actions, only our own. I want my kids actions, and my own actions, to be such that should the situation arise, we are able to try and defend ourselves.
 

packrat

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Situational awareness. We all need to learn this. Gavin Debecker, The Gift of Fear. We need to learn to listen to our "spidey senses". One of the things officers are taught is situational awareness. We *all* should be more aware of our surroundings, period.
 

CJ2008

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OK so no woman could *ever* go out and have a drink too many?

There's something off about that logic, even though I don't like drinking and if I had a daughter - or son - I would hope they wouldn't do too much of it (or at all, actually).

I don't know.

There's something different about saying be aware that if you drink too much it will be harder to defend yourself if something were to happen. But that's different than teaching women to not get drunk because of potential rape. I don't know exactly how, but it is.

ETA It puts the onus on the woman.
 

Laila619

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Thank you Packrat, you said it all perfectly. I'm sorry you had to go through that at 16.
 

monarch64

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^Yeah, and I get where Laila is trying to go with this, but here's what: you can't tell one sex not to do something and not tell the other one the same thing. It's not equal treatment. If you're going to argue that being inebriated could have the unfortunate effect of being raped, you better damn well be teaching BOTH your daughters AND your sons not to get drunk. Did you know boys can be raped, too? Did you know they are even less likely to report sexual assaults? If you want to talk about teaching kids how to be responsible and avoid putting themselves in compromising situations, please talk about teaching both sexes.

And before anyone goes and starts arguing that men and women are different, blah blah blah:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/15/us/politics/congress-women-military-draft.html?_r=0

We could have even more cause to worry about our sons AND daughters if whichever yahoo that gets elected this time gets us into another war.
 

luv2sparkle

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I would never say a woman should be blamed for the action of others or that because of her behavior she 'deserved' (that thought is so horrible I have a hard time even leaving that word there) to be assaulted, but I do agree that we need to teach our daughters that there are dangers involved in getting so intoxicated that we are not able to judge whether a situation is safe or not. There are certainly consequences to any action we take and it is a good idea to teach all of our children that. If the worst thing our daughter or sons had to face was making a fool of themselves the world would be a much nicer place.

All of our teens need to be taught of the various consequences to all kinds of behavior. The fact is most teens think nothing bad can happen to them, it will only happen to someone else. It goes way beyond our daughters getting intoxicated. It is just hard as parents to think to tell them of all the possible ramifications of their choices.
 

Gypsy

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Niel|1466026363|4044486 said:
This is rape culture.

No, I won't teach my daughter not to drink too much so she doesn't get raped. I'll teach her that it's unhealthy, she might embarrass herself, or make choices shell regret later. But I will not tell her not to drink because she might get raped.

Suggesting women change their lifestyle to avoid rape is rape culture and I won't subscribe to that
Agree 100%
 

Gypsy

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telephone89|1466027006|4044495 said:
Laila619|1466026368|4044487 said:
telephone89|1466025932|4044478 said:
Laila619|1466024129|4044454 said:
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/10/sexual_assault_and_drinking_teach_women_the_connection.html
A common denominator in these cases is alcohol, often copious amounts, enough to render the young woman incapacitated.
Another common denominator is a god damn rapist.
Well, obviously. But what can women DO about it? To protect themselves from it? Teaching some basic safety measures seems like one thing.
We as women can petition the courts for harsher sentences for rapists. We can make sure women feel comfortable coming forward after it happens. We can teach our sons, nephews, brothers, fathers, AND WOMEN about consent - what itAgree is, why it's important. We can influence school boards to start teaching consent and proper sex ed. We can stand up when we hear someone talking about a slut. We can tell a construction worker to [censored] off when he whistles at a 13 year old girl wearing a tank top walking down the street.

There are hundreds of things we can do.
AGREE 1000%
 

Bonfire

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packrat|1466030123|4044518 said:
Situational awareness. We all need to learn this. Gavin Debecker, The Gift of Fear. We need to learn to listen to our "spidey senses". One of the things officers are taught is situational awareness. We *all* should be more aware of our surroundings, period.

You nailed it Packrat!! Situational awareness. I wish I had a nickle for every time my husband says this! He's a veteran airline pilot and says this repeatedly, especially when he was instructing our son and daughter how to fly. It's great advice out of aviation too. I'm not excusing our rape culture. Teaching our daughters not to drink excessively is wise, same for our sons. We need to always be aware.

When I was 20 years old, I was aggressively attacked while doing laundry alone in a Laundromat in broad daylight. The man had himself exposed and slammed me to the wall and grabbed my throat. Fortunately for me I had my car keys in my hand and was able to surprise him with a right hook with keys between my fingers. I escaped with only bruises. Timing and the element of surprise saved me. Situational awareness always. I will never be that lone lamb ever again! Is it fair? Hell no!!
But it's smart and it's about survival. It makes me mad as hell. What, I can't go to a Laundromat in the daytime without lots of people around?! My fault? Of course not! But my safety is my responsibility by NOT being a victim!! I don't have the answers, but it's not just females that are targeted. Teach your children well.
 

Gypsy

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House Cat|1466028899|4044512 said:
Wanna teach your daughters something? Teach them to pick good friends. Teach them what consent looks like. Teach them to be strong through your example of strength. Teach them to love themselves through your unconditional love. Teach them to be competent in the world through self defense. But don't teach them that they are responsible for their rape.



Laila, I get what you are trying to say. Don't make yourself vulnerable because the world isn't the safe place we wish it would be. Ever since I was attacked, believe me, I have been hypervigilant. I am thinking there might be a better way to phrase this or to think about this... When you said it on my thread, it went up my spine like an electric shock. I knew what you were trying to say, but as someone who has lived through this...and as someone who blamed herself for years for her rape, this isn't the best way to put this out there.

As a rape victim too. Who was SOBER, I agree and could have written this

Laila you have 4 children. Have you talked to your boys about whar true consent is? Have YOU done everything you could to make sure your sons are not part of this problem?

Because if you say this to your daughter in front of your sons what message are you giving them? That drunk women are stupid and asking for it?

Have you taught your SONS not to drink??
 
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