Teach your daughters not to get drunk

[LLJsmom]

Wanna teach your daughters something? Teach them to pick good friends. Teach them what consent looks like. Teach them to be strong through your example of strength. Teach them to love themselves through your unconditional love. Teach them to be competent in the world through self defense. But don't teach them that they are responsible for their rape.

Laila, I get what you are trying to say. Don't make yourself vulnerable because the world isn't the safe place we wish it would be. Ever since I was attacked, believe me, I have been hypervigilant. I am thinking there might be a better way to phrase this or to think about this... When you said it on my thread, it went up my spine like an electric shock. I knew what you were trying to say, but as someone who has lived through this...and as someone who blamed herself for years for her rape, this isn't the best way to put this out there.

I'm sorry you had to live this, HouseCat. It's never any woman's fault at all. Unfortunately, we do have to be vigilant. When I'm out alone in public, I look around and walk with my keys in my hand, ready to use them like a weapon if I had to. It would be nice if women could feel safe doing anything and going anywhere, but it's just not reality. MOST men are good and kind I still think.

Housecat, I am so so sorry that happened to you. IT IS HORRIBLE AND IT IS THE RAPIST'S FAULT.

Laila, I have a daughter, and I will teach her not to drink because she can get raped. I don't care that other people think it subscribes to the "rape culture". I cannot be with my daughter 24/7 and I want her to be as safe a possible. I know that it is not her fault, but there are people out there, men and women, that will take advantage of or hurt another person because that person is impaired. That is my view of the reality of the world. I have a son, and I will teach him the same thing. I will teach him not to drink so he is not taken advantage of and I will teach him not to rape as well. People, both genders, need to be respectful of each person. I will teach them both about people putting stuff in their drink, stuff that you cannot smell or taste, that will impair them. I hope they will listen to me and understand my reasoning and my concern for their safety and well-being. I do not care if they are the only people at the party not drinking, and will always be the designated driver. I hope they will listen to me, but no matter what I will have tried my best. They will know that people aren't supposed to do bad things but people will do bad things anyway. I want my children to be informed of what can happen.

I have taught both my children not to drink. period. They will choose when they get older, but I have taught them not to and I have explained my reasons. It can be a hard road for them if they choose to abstain for their whole lives. It has been challenging for me in certain situations. I am the only person not to drink at parties, business functions, etc. I am happy to be the designated driver. I am the person that is watching out for my friends. Who is that guy she is with? Where did she go? Where is he? Is he sick? I have made that choice and have not regretted it for a second. I have chosen friends who don't give me a hard time. If they do, they are not people I associate with.

 

[Laila619]

Wanna teach your daughters something? Teach them to pick good friends. Teach them what consent looks like. Teach them to be strong through your example of strength. Teach them to love themselves through your unconditional love. Teach them to be competent in the world through self defense. But don't teach them that they are responsible for their rape.



Laila, I get what you are trying to say. Don't make yourself vulnerable because the world isn't the safe place we wish it would be. Ever since I was attacked, believe me, I have been hypervigilant. I am thinking there might be a better way to phrase this or to think about this... When you said it on my thread, it went up my spine like an electric shock. I knew what you were trying to say, but as someone who has lived through this...and as someone who blamed herself for years for her rape, this isn't the best way to put this out there.

As a rape victim too. Who was SOBER, I agree and could have written this

Laila you have 4 children. Have you talked to your boys about whar true consent is? Have YOU done everything you could to make sure your sons are not part of this problem?

Because if you say this to your daughter in front of your sons what message are you giving them? That drunk women are stupid and asking for it?

Have you taught your SONS not to drink??

Yes, I will teach ALL of them not to get highly intoxicated. It's just not safe. A drunk man could get mugged, beaten, or raped. We can't help what other people do or don't do, but we can certainly teach personal safety and staying alert. It's not a panacea, but at least it's something. I am sorry for your experience too, Gypsy.

 

[Calliecake]

Laila, I'm pretty sure my response to you in another thead is one of the reasons you started this one.

Here's a thought. Why don't we teach our sons and nephews not to be rapists. Why don't we teach them how to respect woman.

You need to educate yourself on rape. Rape is a violent crime. It's a crime about violence and control. It has nothing to do with what a woman looks like, how she dresses. Your comments above made me feel sick to my stomach as I read them. I'm certain they bring many memories flooding back to a survivor of rape.

I was raped when I was in 26. I was at home asleep when the rapist figured out a way to break into my apartment. The doors were locked but he figured out a way to break into the patio door of my second floor apartment. I chose the second floor apartment to rent because I thought it was safer. I also never drank more than one drink when I was out with my friends.

I now have a wonderful life but I still miss the person I was before the rape and I'm now in my fifties. I have nightmares every year around the time of the attack and a few times randomly through out the year. The date of the attack and all that happened that night is etched in my mind forever. I can remember the fear I felt when I thought he was going to kill me. I remember him telling me he could break my neck in an instant. I remember being afraid I may never get to say goodbye to my family. I remember thinking how devastated my parents and brothers would be if he killed me. I remember how I had bruises all over my body after the attack.

I remember how kind the police officers, ambulance attendants, hospital nurses and doctors and rape couselor were to me that night. He promised he would come back and kill him me if I called the police. I was terrified he would keep that promise. The fear lasted for a few years after the attack.

Packrat, I am sorry you were also raped. I'm also sorry you were so young when it happened to you. I know I have told you before that this was never your fault. I'm glad you are the strong wonderful woman you are today. I also love your posts Packie!

House Cat, Your comments made me cry. I'm sorry you had to go thru this awful experience and it hurts me to think you blamed yourself. It was NEVER your fault.

Gypsy, I am so sorry honey.

Laila, You mentioned in the other thread that you have two daughters. If something were ever to happen to them, please speak to a rape counselor on how to speak to your daughters. I would hate for your girls to ever feel that their mother thought they were somehow responsible if they were ever in a similar situation.

 

[Laila619]

OK so no woman could *ever* go out and have a drink too many?

There's something off about that logic, even though I don't like drinking and if I had a daughter - or son - I would hope they wouldn't do too much of it (or at all, actually).

I don't know.

There's something different about saying be aware that if you drink too much it will be harder to defend yourself if something were to happen. But that's different than teaching women to not get drunk because of potential rape. I don't know exactly how, but it is.

ETA It puts the onus on the woman.

Well I don't know if onus is the right word per se, but women (people, really) need to be in charge of their own safety. Just like the burden falls on us to lock our houses, our cars, to put our valuables in a safe, to teach our children about stranger danger, etc. We SHOULD be able to feel safe and trust that someone won't attack us, but there are predators out there. To me, not getting drunk in public is no different than looking both ways before crossing the street, avoiding bad neighborhoods when alone at night, or not texting and driving. They are reasonable safety measures I can take.

 

[amc80]

We all have to decide how much risk we want to take on. One way to cut down on risk is to not put yourself in a vulnerable situation. We can teach our sons all day long not to rape, to respect women, etc. But there are still some people who are just bad, people with no moral compass, people who get off on hurting other people. The Stanford kid, Brock whatever, do you really think he was never told that rape is bad? Either by parents or school or society?

 

[Laila619]

Callie, hugs. Your situation was a horrible, terrifying one. Every woman should be safe in their own home.

I already stated many times that I do not believe it is ever a woman's fault. I (and several others who agreed with me) said we should teach our daughters that getting drunk in public might not be the best choice in terms of safety. GOD FORBID, if anything happened to my daughter, it's not like I'd be like "I told you so." Women who have this awful crime committed against them are blameless.

 

[Niel]

We all have to decide how much risk we want to take on. One way to cut down on risk is to not put yourself in a vulnerable situation. We can teach our sons all day long not to rape, to respect women, etc. But there are still some people who are just bad, people with no moral compass, people who get off on hurting other people. The Stanford kid, Brock whatever, do you really think he was never told that rape is bad? Either by parents or school or society?

Truthfully? No , I doubt his mother say him down and told him rape is bad. Did he learn "no means no"? Maybe in a PSA he watched in 5th grade sex Ed...... but truthfully I don't think a lot of moms and dads tell their sons not to rape.

"Little Johnny is a good boy. Sometimes he's headstrong but boys will be boys"

 

[Laila619]

We all have to decide how much risk we want to take on. One way to cut down on risk is to not put yourself in a vulnerable situation. We can teach our sons all day long not to rape, to respect women, etc. But there are still some people who are just bad, people with no moral compass, people who get off on hurting other people. The Stanford kid, Brock whatever, do you really think he was never told that rape is bad? Either by parents or school or society?

Exactly. I think most good parents try to do right by their sons and teach them to respect and protect women. My own husband would NEVER lay a hand on any woman, no matter how defenseless or drunk or vulnerable she was. But there are still going to be bad seeds out there. Just like most people would never harm a child, but you still teach your kids about stranger danger and to not go anywhere with someone he/she doesn't know.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

It's never the victim's fault. I think we forget that men ALSO get raped. Often. I agree with Joe Biden's letter what said everyone who saw her and did not intervene were also the blame. I can only hope my daughter never black out drinks. However if she does, I can only hope those around her will help her not look the other way.

 

[purplesparklies]

This is such a delicate, emotionally charged topic and I feel for every victim. There just are no easy answers. As a mother of two boys, I do and will continue to have talks with them about respect of others. All others. I talk to them about consciously making decisions and acting in such a way that their judgment is not impaired. Everyone muddles their judgment and ability to react when they introduce alcohol or drugs into their system. The fact is that a night of fun and drinking with friends can have life changing consequences for anyone but females are at a higher risk of being a victim than are males. It sucks and it's not fair but it is reality. I hope my boys never put themselves in the position to be at risk but I am aware of the possibility so I talk to them about the dangers. From themselves and others. While the risk of sexual attack is less than for women, how many times do we hear of a missing male college student who stumbled out of a bar and was not seen again? It happens. I can't talk to every potential perpetrator in the world. I can't assume that evil does not exist. All I can do is talk with my boys about reality. I talk to them about maintaining the ability to think for themselves and not allowing a substance to impair judgment. I take them to Tae Kwon Do so they can move through the world confidently and have some self defense tools in their toolbox. Not because anyone would consider them responsible for an attack against them but because I want them to be aware that there are people in the world just searching for a victim and I want them to avoid risk as much as possible and I want them armed with the skills needed to defend themselves. If I had daughters, I would teach them exactly the same. No victim is responsible for being attacked. The attacker is always the one in the wrong. But some would-be victims are able to avoid/escape potentially dangerous situations. Because I don't know what lies ahead for my boys, I provide them with the information and the skills to have a chance to avoid/escape if they find themselves faced with a dangerous situation. It's the best I can do.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[monarch64]

I am posting this here because I think it's appropriate. Some may have seen it before. I hope it gets shared all the time, forever, so everyone has a chance to review it, make copies, post them everywhere and make everyone carry one in their wallet. I am only half-joking.

 

[Gypsy]

Callie, Honey, I'm sorry. I can't imagine having someone break into your home and do that. Much love to you. And to all the survivors.

Laila, I understand what you are trying to say. And at it's root, there is nothing wrong with situational awareness. I actually have SAID to my nieces and nephew that while it is true that crime is the criminal's fault, when you are lying in a ditch bleeding out somewhere that's cold comfort. So control what you can, while realizing other people's actions are not YOUR responsibility or your fault.

So it's not that I don't understand your intentions. I sincerely do. But I want to share why the way you are thinking is going to inflict harm on your children that I certainly know you don't intend.

I am going to share just a part of my experience and this is hard for me, so please just understand that.

I was date raped.
I went out "AS FRIENDS" with a friend of my roommate in law school. A man she had known for 4 years and who she stayed with when she traveled to the city where he lived. I was NOT attracted to him and did NOT want to date him. I was visiting the town he lived in, which I had never been to before, and agreed to let him show me around because he knew the area and I didn't.

I am a very blunt person. On the phone, before I even arrived in town, I told him point blank that I was not interested in anyway in anything romantic. He promised me that he would treat me 'exactly like he would [my roomate]."

So I arrived and greeted him, AS A FRIEND and he said that we had reservations at a restaurant. I left my luggage at his place to retrieve later. We show up and there is a couple there and the bastard says to me: "I thought a double date would be fun!"

Now, again, I'm a blunt person, so I said VERY CLEARLY, "Except this isn't a date! We're just friends." He was clearly unhappy with me saying that. I DID NOT CARE. Though I did try to soften it with a smile.

He tried to get me to drink. I refused and actually cancelled his presumptive order of wine for me and asked for sparking water. After dinner he tried to get me to drink again. I ordered hot tea. He was visibly irritated with that.

He tried to put his arm around me. I pulled away. All the while this other couple is watching us and he says to me, "you are embarrassing me."

Now I'm in the middle of a restaurant, on a double date I did not want to be on, and uncomfortable as hell. All I wanted to do is scream "You are embarrassing yourself you ******* I TOLD YOU I DIDN'T WANT TO DATE YOU."

But I don't do that. Why? Because I'm a f*cking lady and lady's don't yell in the middle of restaurants. And because he's the friend of someone I value, so I stupidly didn't want to be rude to him. SO instead I say I have a headache and would like to go. He is solicitous about that and agrees for us to leave. Then the bill comes. I make it VERY clear I expect to pay for myself. The bastards says, "I always pay for [your roomate], so you have to let me pay for you." Again I want to scream. Again I opt not to make a scene and let him pay.

Now my stuff is at his house. I have to go to retrieve it. We got into his house and... well, I was raped. I "lead him on"... I was "a tease"... it was "just a kiss goodbye...", I "owed him." And next thing I know... rape.

You know why I got raped? Because of the rape culture that made that entitled bastard feel he was entitled to my body. And because PART OF ME ACTUALLY BELIEVED IT TOO.

When I told my roomate, she said that I was a "flirtatious person and must have lead him on." I never reported it.

I was 22. No one had EVER had a frank discussion about what TRUE consent was. No one had EVER TOLD ME THAT IT WAS NOT MY FAULT and that I didn't owe ANY PERSON the rights to my body.

I was pretty, young, flirtatious (not with him, but in general it was true) and had CLEARLY gone on a date with him. WHAT DID I EXPECT TO HAPPEN SINCE I WENT BACK TO HIS PLACE (forget the fact that my stuff was there!)? That's rape culture.

That's what I got.

So imagine I had drunk that wine. Would that have changed anything? No. If I had 5 drinks, would that have changed anything? No.

What would have changed things is me having the confidence to tell him off the minute he started talking about my being a tease. I should have kicked him in the balls. I should have grabbed my stuff and hit him with the suitcase on the way out and run.

But I didn't have the confidence to do any of that. And I TRULY did not believe he would rape me. He was my roomate's friend.

But he WAS a rapist. Nothing I could have done-- except to abandon him and leave my stuff at his place and not ever going back to his place --short of running in the opposite direction would have prevented what happened.

Alcohol doesn't cause rape. Rapists cause rape. Alcohol does result in poor judgement. That's true. But telling ANY of your kids not to drink because of RAPE specifically is just reinforcing rape culture. And making them THINK that they are in control of something they are NOT in control with.

You can do everything right and still be raped. Why? Because WOMEN don't CAUSE rape. You can do everything right and still be raped. Giving a woman any other message is reinforcing the same rape culture that shut me up and kept me from reporting what happened to me.

Say you tell your daughters not to drink. Not to dress provocatively. Not to hitchhike. Not to go to college fraternity parties.

And say your daughter does ALL OF THAT (not realistic in the least). But she's friendly and trusting. And she still gets raped. She gets asked "did you drink." she says no. She's asked "what were you wearing." she says baggy sweat pants and sweatshirt. They ask her all these questions.

What is her take away? That she SOMEHOW did SOMETHING wrong, that somehow SHE provoked that behavior and that SHE is to blame for her own rape. That's rape culture. That's what perpetuates RAPE. That is what CAUSES RAPE.

Which is how I felt.

You do NOT want your daughter to feel that way. Trust me. It's a slippery slope. Once you tell them not to drink. Then you tell them how to dress. Then you tell them not to go here. Not to go there. Then the message is that it is all THEIR fault if it happens. Because they should have done x or y or z. When really it's not in their control. It's not their fault. And it's not their responsibility.

I am sick to my stomach that some other woman may have been raped by the bastard because I didn't report him.

I understand that your goal is to protect your children. But you have to be careful of HOW you do that. Because you might just be perpetuating the SAME culture that ALLOWS one in 4 women get raped.

And you don't want to do that. I know.

There is a difference between teaching your kids situational awareness and teaching them not to drink for fear of rape. A BIG difference. Situational awareness starts with confidence. The confidence to know that you are entitled to safety and to bodily integrity. That you have a RIGHT to DEFEND your body from unwanted touching. And that NOTHING, and NO ONE, for any reason, has the right to take that away from you.

Make sure your daughters know at 7 years old, what bad touching is. Not with euphemisms but in blunt language (with a child therapist assisting if you need to) and with a doll for demonstration. Explain to that 7 year old that her body is HERS and HERS ALONE that NO ONE, has the rights to touch her in a wrong way. And that WRONG is ANYTHING that makes her uncomfortable. That she is entitled to bodily integrity and that no one is ENTITLED to touch her (even a hug from grandma) if she didn't want it. Yes, I realize that seems young, but its not too early unfortunately.

Does that seem extreme? It's not. My grandmother made me VERY VERY uncomfortable when she touched me. It wasn't her intent to and there was nothing sexual about it. But it made me feel "icky" and I HATED it as a child, a young teen, as a young woman too. But my mother would tell me I HAD to let her do that, because she was my grandmother and it would hurt her feelings. Now, my mother didn't MEAN to infringe on my bodily integrity. She didn't MEAN to teach me that grandma's feelings were somehow more important than mine. But she DID nonetheless and that taught me that I was NOT in charge of my own body. That others had rights to it. And that's the message I got. That my body was not solely mine. That OTHER people's needs OVER RODE my feelings about what was okay with my body.

And you know what? That translated partially into the mentality that allowed that rape culture to seep in. The thought that someone else had rights to my body and that I COULDN'T say no. So when that bastard said to me that I had lead him on and that I was a tease. I actually doubted myself. And that was reinforced by my roommate's reaction.

That's not okay.

Sorry for the rambling. But this is a hugely important topic for me.

 

[Gypsy]

This is such a delicate, emotionally charged topic and I feel for every victim. There just are no easy answers. As a mother of two boys, I do and will continue to have talks with them about respect of others. All others. I talk to them about consciously making decisions and acting in such a way that their judgment is not impaired. Everyone muddles their judgment and ability to react when they introduce alcohol or drugs into their system. The fact is that a night of fun and drinking with friends can have life changing consequences for anyone but females are at a higher risk of being a victim than are males. It sucks and it's not fair but it is reality. I hope my boys never put themselves in the position to be at risk but I am aware of the possibility so I talk to them about the dangers. From themselves and others. While the risk of sexual attack is less than for women, how many times do we hear of a missing male college student who stumbled out of a bar and was not seen again? It happens. I can't talk to every potential perpetrator in the world. I can't assume that evil does not exist. All I can do is talk with my boys about reality. I talk to them about maintaining the ability to think for themselves and not allowing a substance to impair judgment. I take them to Tae Kwon Do so they can move through the world confidently and have some self defense tools in their toolbox. Not because anyone would consider them responsible for an attack against them but because I want them to be aware that there are people in the world just searching for a victim and I want them to avoid risk as much as possible and I want them armed with the skills needed to defend themselves. If I had daughters, I would teach them exactly the same. No victim is responsible for being attacked. The attacker is always the one in the wrong. But some would-be victims are able to avoid/escape potentially dangerous situations. Because I don't know what lies ahead for my boys, I provide them with the information and the skills to have a chance to avoid/escape if they find themselves faced with a dangerous situation. It's the best I can do.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

PS, If I am taking this out of context, please forgive me.


I know from hearing several of my family and family friends speak to their kids, their boys, they use vague language like "respect" of other people, and "danger" instead of being REALLY clear and blunt and saying, "DO NOT RAPE." And saying "THIS IS WHAT RAPE IS."

Look at Monarch's list. Yes, it is partially funny. But it's NOT. THAT'S HOW BLUNT you HAVE TO BE with BOYS.

Do not put shit in someone's drink.
Do not rape someone. Intentionally or unintentionally by not paying attention in the heat of the moment and ASSUMING consent.

Role playing about consent situations is important with children. Modelling what consent does and does NOT look like. It's a hard thing, but it is ESSENTIAL.

This is a level of bluntness and detail that most parents shy aware from. And it is WRONG.

See here:
http://www.adweek.com/adfreak/sexual-consent-ads-ditch-metaphors-and-go-right-talking-cartoon-genitals-169967


Do not dance around the topic by talking about "danger" and "respect." That doesn't get the job done. Clear. Concise and BLUNT talk is what is needed.

And actually, contrary to what you said, it is an easy answer.

And if you have daughters, have the EXACT same conversation with them. I know men that have been raped too.

 

[LLJsmom]

Gypsy, I am so sorry that horrible thing happened to you. Thank you for sharing your story. I am not sure I would have the courage to if it were me. I am going to have my daughter read your story. It conveys a strong and clear message.

Unfortunately, I am teaching my daughter not to be trusting, not to be too nice, how to tell a guy/girl off, what is inappropriate, what is wrong with certain touching, where to draw the boundaries, and how. Don't assume a person doesn't have bad intentions, be it a friend, close relative, teacher, elder. Yes, a woman can still get raped, even if she knows and does all the these things, but as a mother, I need to teach her how to do everything she can to prevent it. You're right. All those horrible things should not happen. But it does. And as a mother, I must and will do everything I think I can to equip her to deal with it should the situation arise.

 

[chemgirl]

Reading this thread I was like "Teach our boys not to rape? Don't they already know this?"

Then I remembered a guy I dated for like a year back when I was 22. We were talking about sexual fantasies and his was to do it while I'm sleeping. I freaked out and called him a rapist. He swore up and down that he had never done it (and I believe him, I'm the lightest sleeper ever). He didn't get that sex with a sleeping person is rape.

Something similar happened to a former roommate. She woke up to find her boyfriend on top of her.

Heck creepy work dude got drunk at a company event and said I quote "Any man who says he hasn't thought about sticking it in his wife's mouth while she's sleeping is a liar". Luckily he doesn't work here anymore.

Clearly people aren't understanding consent, but then again I wonder how many are predatory creeps who would do it anyway.

 

[Gypsy]

Gypsy, I am so sorry that horrible thing happened to you. I am going to have my daughter read your story. I know it will help and convey a strong message.

Unfortunately, I am teaching my daughter not to be trusting, not to be too nice, how to tell a guy/girl off, what is inappropriate, what is wrong with certain touching, where to draw the boundaries, and how. Don't assume a person doesn't have bad intentions, be it a friend, close relative, teacher, elder. Yes, a woman can still get raped, even if she knows and does all the these things, but as a mother, I need to teach her how to do everything she can to prevent it. You're right. All those horrible things should not happen. But it does. And as a mother, I must and will do everything I think I can to equip her to deal with it should the situation arise.

LLJ, thank you.

One other thing I meant to include.

DO NOT EVER DEPEND ON YOUR FRIENDS.

I mean that. I have EXCELLENT friends. NOW.

But in junior high, in high school and in college and even in law school I didn't have the discernment to know what a real friend is. And I had too many people around him that I considered friends, like that roommate above, who proved themselves to not be very good friends at all.

You should NEVER abdicate your responsibility for your own well being to another person with the exception of your parents, siblings and spouse.

Not your boyfriend. Not your BFF.

No one. Because, has harsh as this sounds, no matter how good a friend they are, unless they are truly extraordinary human beings, they aren't going to be hero's and go out on a limb to keep you safe. You have to be able to keep yourself as safe as possible.

Humans are inherently selfish and put themselves first.

I can't tell you how many times BFF's of mine left me at a club when they met a 'hot guy', or 'felt sick' and didn't tell me they were leaving, or 'thought you looked busy and didn't want to bother you.' and then left.

If you go to a party or a club make sure you AT ALL TIMES have at least 20 bucks on you, pinned to your bra as emergency cash. Worse comes to worse, take a cab to a police station. Most cops, at least in a station environment, are a safe haven.

 

[Laila619]

All good points, Gypsy. Thank you for sharing your story, and I am sorry you were made to feel like it was somehow your fault for being a "tease." UGH!!!

 

[Gypsy]

Reading this thread I was like "Teach our boys not to rape? Don't they already know this?"

Then I remembered a guy I dated for like a year back when I was 22. We were talking about sexual fantasies and his was to do it while I'm sleeping. I freaked out and called him a rapist. He swore up and down that he had never done it (and I believe him, I'm the lightest sleeper ever). He didn't get that sex with a sleeping person is rape.

Something similar happened to a former roommate. She woke up to find her boyfriend on top of her.

Heck creepy work dude got drunk at a company event and said I quote "Any man who says he hasn't thought about sticking it in his wife's mouth while she's sleeping is a liar". Luckily he doesn't work here anymore.

Clearly people aren't understanding consent, but then again I wonder how many are predatory creeps who would do it anyway.

I've heard men (not any I know now, thankfully) call these things "gray areas."

Like when a girl says "maybe".

Or when a girl said yes, but changed her mind but it was "too late" cause he was "too far gone."

I think many men see gray where there is just black and white and they DO NOT know better because people ASSUME they they do, and don't ever have blunt conversations about it with them.

 

[Gypsy]

All good points, Gypsy. Thank you for sharing your story, and I am sorry you were made to feel like it was somehow your fault for being a "tease." UGH!!!

That really wasn't the point of the post. The point is that perpetuating rape culture causes more rape. But thank you.

 

[Laila619]

All good points, Gypsy. Thank you for sharing your story, and I am sorry you were made to feel like it was somehow your fault for being a "tease." UGH!!!

That really wasn't the point of the post. The point is that perpetuating rape culture causes more rape. But thank you.

No, I do get what you are saying. It's opened my eyes and made me re-think some of the things I will tell my daughters. I don't want to imply the wrong thing.

However, I do not agree that advising girls to be cautious about drinking to the point where you are impaired is promoting rape culture. To me, it is promoting safety. On that, we will have to disagree. Now, if I were saying, (which I'm not) "Well of course you got raped, you were sloppy drunk" then that would be promoting rape culture.

 

[LLJsmom]

Gypsy, I am so sorry that horrible thing happened to you. I am going to have my daughter read your story. I know it will help and convey a strong message.

Unfortunately, I am teaching my daughter not to be trusting, not to be too nice, how to tell a guy/girl off, what is inappropriate, what is wrong with certain touching, where to draw the boundaries, and how. Don't assume a person doesn't have bad intentions, be it a friend, close relative, teacher, elder. Yes, a woman can still get raped, even if she knows and does all the these things, but as a mother, I need to teach her how to do everything she can to prevent it. You're right. All those horrible things should not happen. But it does. And as a mother, I must and will do everything I think I can to equip her to deal with it should the situation arise.

LLJ, thank you.

One other thing I meant to include.

DO NOT EVER DEPEND ON YOUR FRIENDS.

I mean that. I have EXCELLENT friends. NOW.

But in junior high, in high school and in college and even in law school I didn't have the discernment to know what a real friend is. And I had too many people around him that I considered friends, like that roommate above, who proved themselves to not be very good friends at all.

You should NEVER abdicate your responsibility for your own well being to another person with the exception of your parents, siblings and spouse.

Not your boyfriend. Not your BFF.

No one. Because, has harsh as this sounds, no matter how good a friend they are, unless they are truly extraordinary human beings, they aren't going to be hero's and go out on a limb to keep you safe. You have to be able to keep yourself as safe as possible.

Humans are inherently selfish and put themselves first.

I can't tell you how many times BFF's of mine left me at a club when they met a 'hot guy', or 'felt sick' and didn't tell me they were leaving, or 'thought you looked busy and didn't want to bother you.' and then left.

If you go to a party or a club make sure you AT ALL TIMES have at least 20 bucks on you, pinned to your bra as emergency cash. Worse comes to worse, take a cab to a police station. Most cops, at least in a station environment, are a safe haven.

THIS IS EXCELLENT ADVICE, AND IT IS REALITY. Thank you for sharing, from the bottom of my heart. Your writing is clear, and simple and straightforward. My DD just read your story. Her take away was don't trust someone just because someone you know and trust does. If they don't listen to your words, kick them in the nuts and run. Don't worry about embarrassing them in whatever group or crowd or situation they are in. I've had her in martial arts since she was seven, and it's trained her not to freeze when confronted physically and to defend herself. There is no guarantee she will be able to respond in a physical situation, but it's better than not having been trained. I told her that I am on her side if she gets into any kind of physical situation, be it a fight or the need to protect or defend herself. If she gets in trouble with the school, she can tell the administration that her mom told her to do it. Recently a boy asked her if her parents make love. She responded by hitting him with a yardstick on the shoulders and head. Maybe that isn't exactly the right time for a physical response, but I am glad she doesn't shy away from it.

 

[Gypsy]

I am so happy LLJ. If my story can help one woman to be safer that's wonderful. Thank you for sharing it with her.

 

[Gypsy]

All good points, Gypsy. Thank you for sharing your story, and I am sorry you were made to feel like it was somehow your fault for being a "tease." UGH!!!

That really wasn't the point of the post. The point is that perpetuating rape culture causes more rape. But thank you.

No, I do get what you are saying. It's opened my eyes and made me re-think some of the things I will tell my daughters. I don't want to imply the wrong thing.

However, I do not agree that advising girls to be cautious about drinking to the point where you are impaired is promoting rape culture. To me, it is promoting safety. On that, we will have to disagree. Now, if I were saying, (which I'm not) "Well of course you got raped, you were sloppy drunk" then that would be promoting rape culture.

It's an insidious thing, rape culture.

Where does it stop Laila? Don't drink. Don't dress this way. Don't go to this place. Don't go to that place.

It becomes burden shifting. The responsibility for rape becomes the woman's. The message becomes IF you drink... rape. IF you dress this way... RAPE. IF you go here...RAPE.

IF YOU. Not if THEY.

That's why it IS rape culture.

Now teaching situational awareness is another thing. Martial arts is especially good coupled with "emotional IQ" training. And blunt talk to kids about what is and what isn't okay.


But situational awareness is VERY different from telling a woman that she should not drink because she could get raped. That's just teaching fear. And the corollary is that it leaves your daughter unprepared for the reality which is.... she could do everything right-- she could be on her own couch, sober in sweats and some bastard could break in-- and she could still get raped.


And also, telling her not to drink because she might get raped MAY result in her not reporting the crime OR TELLING YOU, because they don't want you to blame them, to be disappointed in them for drinking. Or they are afraid if they press charges you'll find out.

 

[packrat]

I don't see how teaching my kids not to drink to excess b/c bad shit could possibly happen b/c not everyone is a fine upstanding citizen when others are vulnerable is perpetuating rape culture. I don't see how teaching my kids to be aware of their surroundings, to know what's going on, to listen to their inner voices/intuition, is a bad thing. Teaching my kids to be able to defend themselves, should a situation arise, to me, is a smart thing. I don't want my kids to freeze and not know what to do-if anything, that feeling of powerlessness, that feeling of helplessness, would go more toward making me feel like I'd done something wrong, that I had failed myself somehow b/c I didn't know what to do to help my situation. My wanting to have as much control over myself and what happens to me as possible, isn't perpetuating anything other than perpetuating the power that I alone have over myself.

Both my kids know what happened to me, tho I don't think either of them understands it. We'll talk about it more as they get older. Not talking to my kids about drinking, drugs, their friends, the choices that they make in their lives and about the bad shit that can happen is not an option. It's easier for someone to take advantage of you if you are vulnerable. I will not teach my kids that they can be vulnerable and the onus is on everyone else to be responsible decent human beings-b/c they aren't always going to act that way. I don't want my kids to be so naive and uninformed that they think oh well it's ok if I get drunk b/c I am surrounded by white knights and proper ladies who will see I arrive home unscathed. I've been around plenty of people who were drunk and people didn't take their keys-- tho those who were drunk expected that they would b/c that's what good people do. One went to jail for vehicular homicide, another miraculously survived an accident and spent months in a halo thing and has lasting brain damage. We all know people who have been drunk and made bad decisions, and we all know people who have been drunk and had bad shit happen to them that wasn't their choice.

I have personal responsibility for myself, and only myself (not counting my kids). My kids have responsibility for themselves. They can not assume only good things will happen to them just b/c they were raised right and to be good people. Teaching my kids not to rape, that rape is wrong, doesn't mean someone won't try to rape them. Teaching my kids not to rape, that rape is wrong, teaches them that some people do try to rape, and that it is wrong. Teaching my kids not to rape, that rape is wrong, teaches them that if someone does try to rape them, the other person is in the wrong. We all have the onus to not do bad. We all have the onus of our own personal self. I control my body. I have the onus not to rape others. It does not rape of its own volition. In a rape situation, the onus is on me to protect myself. There's no one else to do it. I will not teach my daughter she is without onus b/c she is a girl and boys shouldn't rape.

In our small community, JD has come home countless times after dealing w/a complete lack of regard for personal safety, and were he not already bald, he would be bald after just 4 years of dealing w/it, and dealing w/what has happened to kids whose parents didn't explain to them that bad shit can happen. "But..that's not supposed to happen b/c it's wrong" and then he's left trying to explain the dangers in assuming everyone is always going to do the right thing just b/c they should. In an ideal world, you'd be able to walk around naked and drunker'n a skunk, through a street full of sailors on leave, unafraid and untouched. However, due to a lack of teaching and understanding of common decency, that's not maybe going to be how it actually goes. The reality of our world is, we all have to assume some sort of culpability for our own safety. We can not just blithely go thru life and assume everyone is going to have our best interests in mind.

Let me be clear--I am not saying that it is the victims fault when they're raped. I don't care if the girl stripped down naked and flung herself on a guy-the onus there is on him, full stop, 100% period, end of story, he alone controls her body. But I'm teaching my kids they alone have control over their body, nobody else does. if someone tries to take control of their body-I want them to be fully cognizant and prepared to defend their body to the fullest extent.

 

[missy]

My heart goes out to every person dealing with this trauma. And how dangerous it is to blame the victim especially when stating you are not blaming the victim. That is how insidious and dangerous this kind of thinking is. It even fools usually smart and rational people into drinking this nonsense.

I 100% completely agree with the comments we have to teach our sons not to rape. We have to teach society it won't be tolerated. The message we are sending now is a terrible one and one just has to look at the news to see this society still doesn't get it.

Sending (((hugs))), healing vibes and bucket loads of good thoughts to everyone dealing with this kind of trauma, abuse and violence.

 

[arkieb1]

1 out of 6 women in America has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime. The amount of intelligent, lovely diverse women on here sadly who have been victims of these statistics says it all. Women don't have to be drunk to experience rape, they don't have to be dumb, they don't have to be from poor families it can and does happen to anyone.

I think more broadly it's not only about teaching and giving our young women to tools to reject domestic violence, the tools to be vigilant when they go out, about having high levels of self respect, it IS about teaching our young men about respecting women. Too many frat boys and men in general think its O.K to get drunk and make obscene comments, too many men think it's O.K to leer at women, it's O.K to force themselves on women because they were somehow asking for it.

I for one am teaching my son that calling anyone especially women things like bi@#*es and various other derogatory words he hears at school, in video games, via music and so on is NOT O.K, that any form of emotional or actual violence against someone else is not O.K and when he gets older I am going to be one of those tough blunt in your face women that teaches her son it's not O.K to hit, hurt, rape or bully another human being, male or female for any reason under any situation. It's not O.K to stand by and watch when ten of your buddies kick hit or punch some person in the wrong place at the wrong time to the ground.....

Similarly it's not O.K to accept being the victim of rape or assault either, because lets not forget 1 out of every 10 rape victims is male. Yes that occurs too, young men getting young men drunk and raping each other. I'm all for teaching both sexes situational awareness but I'm also for teaching them that rape and violence against others is not acceptable period, and until we change the attitudes behind what we will and won't accept in our society staring with our kids and until we teach our young people to value themselves and to value others, then nothing will change.

 

[CJ2008]

All good points, Gypsy. Thank you for sharing your story, and I am sorry you were made to feel like it was somehow your fault for being a "tease." UGH!!!

That really wasn't the point of the post. The point is that perpetuating rape culture causes more rape. But thank you.

No, I do get what you are saying. It's opened my eyes and made me re-think some of the things I will tell my daughters. I don't want to imply the wrong thing.

However, I do not agree that advising girls to be cautious about drinking to the point where you are impaired is promoting rape culture. To me, it is promoting safety. On that, we will have to disagree. Now, if I were saying, (which I'm not) "Well of course you got raped, you were sloppy drunk" then that would be promoting rape culture.

It's an insidious thing, rape culture.

Where does it stop Laila? Don't drink. Don't dress this way. Don't go to this place. Don't go to that place.

It becomes burden shifting. The responsibility for rape becomes the woman's. The message becomes IF you drink... rape. IF you dress this way... RAPE. IF you go here...RAPE.

IF YOU. Not if THEY.

That's why it IS rape culture.

Now teaching situational awareness is another thing. Martial arts is especially good coupled with "emotional IQ" training. And blunt talk to kids about what is and what isn't okay.


But situational awareness is VERY different from telling a woman that she should not drink because she could get raped. That's just teaching fear. And the corollary is that it leaves your daughter unprepared for the reality which is.... she could do everything right-- she could be on her own couch, sober in sweats and some bastard could break in-- and she could still get raped.


And also, telling her not to drink because she might get raped MAY result in her not reporting the crime OR TELLING YOU, because they don't want you to blame them, to be disappointed in them for drinking. Or they are afraid if they press charges you'll find out.

Right.

I think it's about where does it stop.

Don't do this because this may happen.

It really sends the message that what YOU'RE doing is what's CAUSING or inciting the rape.

It's different than teaching awareness.

Even though I still haven't found the right way to express exactly how in my own mind.

And Gypsy I love love love what you say about using BLUNT language rather than things like "respect" and "danger." Don't rape - and just to be clear, this is what rape is.

 

[telephone89]

Thank you to everyone who shared their story. I have not been in this situation, so I can only imagine how terrible it was, and continues to be.

I know we will continue to fight the good fight and continue educating people on rape culture, consent and how we can stop this besides just 'not drinking'.

 

[VRBeauty]

Gypsy - I'm so sorry you went through that, but I have to thank you for posting not only your experience but your thoughts and reflections on it.

I cringe when I see parents who are constantly taping their kids and asking them to smile/mug/emote whatever for the camera or cell phone. It makes me feel like a curmudgeon, but I hate the thought of those kids growing up and feeling like they need to put on a display for their parents' approval.

Several months ago someone in one of my facebook groups posted that they just found out that her granddaughter, a girl of maybe 3 or 4, had been molested by her father (the parents are separated but the father had visitation rights). Of course there was an outpouring of concern and support.

A few days later the grandmother posted a video of the little girl that was apparently shot by g'ma's daughter, the little girl's mother. The girl is looking right into the camera and smiling, and being coached to say "hi" and "thank you" and "I'm alright." Except that she couldn't quite get the "I'm alright" part out.

I wish I had said something at the time about how inappropriate I thought the video was - making that little girl act and emote and basically put on a display for the needs of the adults around her. I'm sure that it all seemed benign to the women involved, but to me it seemed like implicitly telling that child, once again, that the needs of the adults around her mattered more than her own feelings.

But I'm kind of on the outside of that group and, people pleaser that I am, I didn't speak up.

Gypsy, you've given me the courage (and words) to speak up should I see something like that again.

Sorry for the thread-jack.

 

[NTave]

I agree with this partly, and have taught my daughter to be careful of drinking in public situations, never leaving her drink alone, being careful for two reasons. One is I told her, rapists are predators. Much like a wolf that seeks out a weakened or baby buffalo, they prey on someone as a target. It's not the woman's fault that a predator is looking for someone to prey upon and woman should have the right to get drunk if they want to however:. I've also taught her most people are good, wonderful safe people, but that there are a few people that are just not, due to a multitude of reasons and we also don't always know who they are. And that's where the problem lies, not in her, but in not knowing.
I've also taught my daughter and sons about respecting their own bodies, other people's body's and consent. I have school age children on up and I believe respecting others should be taught from a young age. There is a cute video about consent is easy as a cup of tea. They play this in the classroom in high school, but I played it for my older a few years ago. It's a great funny safe respect video. It's not always a fair world but I think we need to teach our daughters self defense tactics from rapists, muggers, etc, and part of that is social awareness of surroundings and situation. I teach my boys to be loving and respectful as equal partners in relationships as well as social awareness and situationional awareness, and I am cautiously hopeful they will make good choices as they have been taught to respect others. It bothers me that I need to teach her that but in this day and age it's needed.