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Should student loan debt (USA) be forgiven?

msop04

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We've had this conversation before on here. I pay a lot of taxes, but I get a lot for it, too. And after that property tax thread on here, the sum of all my taxes isn't necessarily higher than it would be in an affluent metropolitan area in the US. But with all charges and taxes I get free education, a social security net, healthcare (top notch, free choice of doctor, dental included) and retirement at 63.

But no one's getting rich as fast. Smaller homes, smaller cars, smaller BLING. More equality and security for all.
To me, this would also mean lower incentive as well...
 

missy

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We've had this conversation before on here. I pay a lot of taxes, but I get a lot for it, too. And after that property tax thread on here, the sum of all my taxes isn't necessarily higher than it would be in an affluent metropolitan area in the US. But with all charges and taxes I get free education, a social security net, healthcare (top notch, free choice of doctor, dental included) and retirement at 63.

But no one's getting rich as fast. Smaller homes, smaller cars, smaller BLING. More equality and security for all.
Yes, it's not so much how much we are paying but where the funds are allocated ...The USA places different importance on issues than let's say the EU. Do I agree with the allocation? No, not in all cases.
It's always a trade off.
 

Bayek

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@msop04 Ha! scared to death for me??, hardly, having attended catholic grammar, catholic high school, took classes at 2 catholic colleges I'd hardly say I was scared. Many young people are not religious today and prefer to not be required to do religious classes, etc, preferring secular schools, the obvious reason I brought up the religious aspect was because many Americans do not want their tax dollars to be spent at religious institutions. Those youth who don't care will attend if they are accepted, there are those who would be willing to not compromise their desire not to attend a religious university, and I am assuming, perhaps incorrectly that the topic of free college would be public colleges paid for by tax dollars, as in Europe.

Harvard has a huge endowment but the cost to attend Harvard is: The total 2018-2019 cost of attending Harvard College without financial aid is $46,340 for tuition and $67,580 for tuition, room, board, and fees combined. The cost to attend last year was almost 40K, which is covered under the endowment. These are expensive schools. To go to SUNY the cost is 29K a year, without assistance etc. https://www.suny.edu/smarttrack/tuition-and-fees/ Where would I want my tax dollars to go, why to a public college of course, they are cheaper and and could therefore educate more students at a better price.
 

Bayek

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Bayek

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I have very close Jewish friends who's kids would NEVER have attended a catholic college because they are Jewish, altho the old testament would be alright I suppose. I don't want my tax dollars to go to ANY religious college, my kids did not want to attend any college with a religious requirement, that's them and that' me.. I'm for choice, if Jewish kids want to go to Georgetown that's wonderful. Georgetown is prestigious. The study of theology is the study of God, now Georgetown may offer classes on Zoroastrianism and good for them. My husband's uncle was a Jesuit and he taught religion at Georgetown. As I said before, we are talking about free college and many Americans do not want their tax dollars to be used for the study of any theology. I live in Texas and my sons high school had a class "history of the bible" and it was an elective, I'm fine with that actually as that is an elective, and I pay Texas taxes for Texas schools, but if a religious class is required? I'd sue.



Two of my cousin’s kids go to providence, and it was not their first choice. the financial incentives were so generous that they matriculated. We are Jewish. There is a theology requirement, not religion. Lots of very catholic students. They both love it. My nieces first choice is Georgetown. I’d be thrilled if she is accepted. I’m not so quick to dismiss institutions with religious affiliations.
 

Bayek

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@missy CCNY would have been a good choice in your day perhaps, it was extremely cheap in mine. I did take classes at Marist and Fordham but I would never have applied for full time, too expensive. If they were free? maybe I would have thought about it. Take Yeshiva, it's undergraduates are predominately Jewish because studying the Torah is required..their graduate schools are not as Jewish as they don't have the same requirements. Would I have considered Yeshiva if it had been free? maybe but probably not. I recognize that I'm seguing into religion, I basically want to point out different aspects of 'free college' and what it might mean in America. You know Missy I understand where you are coming from totally. :)
 

missy

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@missy CCNY would have been a good choice in your day perhaps, it was extremely cheap in mine. I did take classes at Marist and Fordham but I would never have applied for full time, too expensive. If they were free? maybe I would have thought about it. Take Yeshiva, it's undergraduates are predominately Jewish because studying the Torah is required..their graduate schools are not as Jewish as they don't have the same requirements. Would I have considered Yeshiva if it had been free? maybe but probably not. I recognize that I'm seguing into religion, I basically want to point out different aspects of 'free college' and what it might mean in America. You know Missy I understand where you are coming from totally. :)
I totally understand your points @Tekate and agree. I would never attend a college where religion was the major focus because I am not religious. I choose to study areas I am interested in and can use towards my future career. I am Jewish (as you know) and I would not have attended a Yeshiva college. Because that area of study is not an area I am interested in focusing on more than just briefly. It is also why I would have been fine attending Georgetown or BC because most of their curriculum is secular in nature and I would not have had to take any religious classes if I did not want to. Or I would have made sure that I would not have had to if I was interested in attending. So yeah free doesn't automatically mean yes I want to attend. I agree with you. Again, it comes down to the individual. For me and if I may for a moment speak for @msop04 (and please correct me if I am wrong msop) it comes down to the fact that in the USA if one wants to attend college one can attend college. There is more than one option and one doesn't have to be wealthy. Though I do feel the cost of higher education has gone up way too much and is verging on ludicrously expensive if not already there.
 

msop04

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@msop04 Ha! scared to death for me??, hardly, having attended catholic grammar, catholic high school, took classes at 2 catholic colleges I'd hardly say I was scared. Many young people are not religious today and prefer to not be required to do religious classes, etc, preferring secular schools, the obvious reason I brought up the religious aspect was because many Americans do not want their tax dollars to be spent at religious institutions. Those youth who don't care will attend if they are accepted, there are those who would be willing to not compromise their desire not to attend a religious university, and I am assuming, perhaps incorrectly that the topic of free college would be public colleges paid for by tax dollars, as in Europe.

Harvard has a huge endowment but the cost to attend Harvard is: The total 2018-2019 cost of attending Harvard College without financial aid is $46,340 for tuition and $67,580 for tuition, room, board, and fees combined. The cost to attend last year was almost 40K, which is covered under the endowment. These are expensive schools. To go to SUNY the cost is 29K a year, without assistance etc. https://www.suny.edu/smarttrack/tuition-and-fees/ Where would I want my tax dollars to go, why to a public college of course, they are cheaper and and could therefore educate more students at a better price.
That's fine if said students wish not to attend such schools... but they may have to pay (more). I was referring to the schools mentioned that were tuition free. These schools aren't funded by tax dollars, but offer a chance to graduate debt free... I think students that are serious about saving would get over the theology class requirement if they had the opportunity to go to one of these colleges and save $60-120K+... I know I would have.
 

missy

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I’m not so quick to dismiss institutions with religious affiliations.
I don't think we are dismissing colleges with religious affiliations rather ones where religion is the *major* focus. Aka religious institutions vs religious affiliations. And again everyone is different and what works for one student may not work for another. Lots of choices for different people.

I wouldn't mind taking a theology course just wouldn't want to take a lot of religious courses. I personally find theology subjects very interesting.

Good luck to your niece...hope she gets her Georgetown acceptance. My best friend is on the admissions committee and it is a very challenging school to be accepted to but it is an excellent school indeed. Wishing her all the best!
 

msop04

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For me and if I may for a moment speak for @msop04 (and please correct me if I am wrong msop) it comes down to the fact that in the USA if one wants to attend college one can attend college. There is more than one option and one doesn't have to be wealthy. Though I do feel the cost of higher education has gone up way too much and is verging on ludicrously expensive if not already there.
Yes, @missy... we are totally on the same page. =)2
 

msop04

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I don't think we are dismissing colleges with religious affiliations rather ones where religion is the *major* focus. Aka religious institutions vs religious affiliations. And again everyone is different and what works for one student may not work for another. Lots of choices for different people.

I wouldn't mind taking a theology course just wouldn't want to take a lot of religious courses. I personally find theology subjects very interesting.

Good luck to your niece...hope she gets her Georgetown acceptance. My best friend is on the admissions committee and it is a very challenging school to be accepted to but it is an excellent school indeed. Wishing her all the best!
I think this is a big misconception about schools with religious affiliations... do people really believe that said colleges are going to try to indoctrinate their students to whatever the religious affiliation is?? I'm not being sarcastic... this is a real question.
 

missy

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I think this is a big misconception about schools with religious affiliations... do people really believe that said colleges are going to try to indoctrinate their students to whatever the religious affiliation is?? I'm not being sarcastic... this is a real question.
No I don't think people think that though I cannot speak for others (though on occasion I try haha). As I wrote before I would have gladly attended schools like Georgetown and Boston College. Schools that have religious affiliations. However I would not have wanted to attend a Yeshiva as that is a religious school. Big difference.
 

msop04

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No I don't think people think that though I cannot speak for others (though on occasion I try haha). As I wrote before I would have gladly attended schools like Georgetown and Boston College. Schools that have religious affiliations. However I would not have wanted to attend a Yeshiva as that is a religious school. Big difference.
Yes... I agree about attending those affiliated. (obviously, I attended a Methodist school for undergrad and a Baptist school for pharmacy) LOL

My argument was more along the lines of... if you don't want/can't afford the debt, schools such as Berea and others that offer a means to help pay back loans or are even debt free shouldn't be dismissed simply due to them having some form of religious affiliation. I mean, it's not all "have your cake and eat it too..." especially if one is looking to save a ton of money. As you and several others have mentioned before, everything has a trade-off. I would hate to know that someone decided to give up the opportunity of lower cost or debt free higher education simply bc they didn't want to take a theology class or two...
 

rocks

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I don't think we are dismissing colleges with religious affiliations rather ones where religion is the *major* focus. Aka religious institutions vs religious affiliations. And again everyone is different and what works for one student may not work for another. Lots of choices for different people.

I wouldn't mind taking a theology course just wouldn't want to take a lot of religious courses. I personally find theology subjects very interesting.

Good luck to your niece...hope she gets her Georgetown acceptance. My best friend is on the admissions committee and it is a very challenging school to be accepted to but it is an excellent school indeed. Wishing her all the best!
She is at the top of her class academically and an athlete....we are told that since she will qualify academically that she has a chance. The coach in her sport has been “watching” her for a while. We are cautiously hopeful.

Interestingly, the only school my father would not pay for was Brandeis.
 

rocks

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@msop04 Ha! scared to death for me??, hardly, having attended catholic grammar, catholic high school, took classes at 2 catholic colleges I'd hardly say I was scared. Many young people are not religious today and prefer to not be required to do religious classes, etc, preferring secular schools, the obvious reason I brought up the religious aspect was because many Americans do not want their tax dollars to be spent at religious institutions. Those youth who don't care will attend if they are accepted, there are those who would be willing to not compromise their desire not to attend a religious university, and I am assuming, perhaps incorrectly that the topic of free college would be public colleges paid for by tax dollars, as in Europe.

Harvard has a huge endowment but the cost to attend Harvard is: The total 2018-2019 cost of attending Harvard College without financial aid is $46,340 for tuition and $67,580 for tuition, room, board, and fees combined. The cost to attend last year was almost 40K, which is covered under the endowment. These are expensive schools. To go to SUNY the cost is 29K a year, without assistance etc. https://www.suny.edu/smarttrack/tuition-and-fees/ Where would I want my tax dollars to go, why to a public college of course, they are cheaper and and could therefore educate more students at a better price.
Harvard offers extraordinarily generous aid to the middle class. More often than not, attending Harvard, the other ivies (or many other well endowed liberal arts colleges) is cheaper than SUNY Binghamton.
 

msop04

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Harvard offers extraordinarily generous aid to the middle class. More often than not, attending Harvard, the other ivies (or many other well endowed liberal arts colleges) is cheaper than SUNY Binghamton.
That's very interesting, @rocks...
 

YadaYadaYada

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Just wanted to pop in and say that Connecticut has a new program called PACT where you can attend community college free if you meet certain requirements:

Have graduated from a CT high school

Be attending college for the first time

Attend college full time

Fill out FAFSA and all accept all awards

Remain in good academic standing once enrolled
 

LLJsmom

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Just wanted to pop in and say that Connecticut has a new program called PACT where you can attend community college free if you meet certain requirements:

Have graduated from a CT high school

Be attending college for the first time

Attend college full time

Fill out FAFSA and all accept all awards

Remain in good academic standing once enrolled
That's great. It's a great start. I wonder if they cover cost of books as well. Those can get really pricey, even if buying used.
 

LLJsmom

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Hi @LLJsmom and everyone, while my sons are both out of college (both graduated in 2014, one in August the other December) and we paid their full ride. But I feel for this generation and their inability to repay their loans consistently or at all due to bad major, not finishing,etc.

Well I did reading and my eyes were opened a bit. First I must say I am liberal but often have more in line views of center democratic and can be downright conservative (death penalty).

So here are two different ways to assist future college students and and assist those who are having trouble. Of course I am liberal and like the liberal approach but I also think the conservative approach would meet my requirements for assistance and be more palatable to many many Americans. For me this segues into @OboeGal posting on coming together for the good of our spirit, ourselves and others.




I have to say I really like the conservative approach in making the institutions accountable. THAT is awesome, that might end the for profit colleges :)

This is been a great read and I so enjoyed everyone's thoughts. THANK YOU. especially @missy who always has a great view on things and posts thought provoking topics all the time.
Thanks for linking these pieces @Tekate . I found both of them interesting and informative. With regard to the first article, I like the proposal for future loans, but I would adjust the maximum payoff factor to 1.6 instead of 1.75. At 1.75, the imputed interest rate seems a bit exhorbitant.

With regard to the second article, this probably deserves more in depth study. Their findings about the Latino/Hispanic borrowers being linked to the lower debt amounts is interesting, as is the $40K-$100K debt being attributed to a more African American borrowers. I would be interested in a study that would uncover the reason for that. I am also curious why Pell Grants have such a high rate of default. I feel like there is something systemic with regard to these trends, and they need to understand why and probably reform the Pell Grants, and uncover why African American borrowers have such a high default rate. They need to fix this before more of these loans are granted. I also really liked that they considered the various implications of each proposal.

After reading the study, I could sign up for a partial forgiveness, maybe a loans that are under a certain dollar amount.

I am definitely supportive of refinancing opportunities. If homeowners can refinance, why can't student borrowers? I am also in agreement with IDR options. These seem like no brainers.

And the cost to administer all this reform, well the country will need to just suck that up.
 

missy

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Harvard offers extraordinarily generous aid to the middle class. More often than not, attending Harvard, the other ivies (or many other well endowed liberal arts colleges) is cheaper than SUNY Binghamton.
That's very interesting, @rocks...
That is interesting and I wonder how recent this is. I attended an Ivy Sister School and my parents (solidly middle class) and I were unable to get any financial aid. Let alone generous financial aid. And it was expensive even in 1982. I wonder if I did the calculation of 1982 dollars extrapolated to today's dollars what that would be...curious. BRB. OK did the calculation though not sure how accurate it is but in today's dollars my yearly education would be $66,573.58. Times 4 equals 266 294.32 US$ Wow. Interesting.
Back in 1982 it cost $25,000 per year for my undergraduate education.

I am not complaining about the cost because it was my choice to attend that college and at the time it was the second most expensive in the country so definitely there were more affordable schools one could and did attend in those days. I chose it because for me it was the perfect fit. Small undergrad, excellent liberal arts education with an excellent science program (my field of study)and the location was exactly where I wanted to be. I went into this with eyes wide open. As for cost of college education today I think the big difference is that today there are more expensive schools vs affordable schools. Expensive seems to be the norm today for education in the USA. Whereas back in the 80s there were many more affordable options.

Yes... I agree about attending those affiliated. (obviously, I attended a Methodist school for undergrad and a Baptist school for pharmacy) LOL

My argument was more along the lines of... if you don't want/can't afford the debt, schools such as Berea and others that offer a means to help pay back loans or are even debt free shouldn't be dismissed simply due to them having some form of religious affiliation. I mean, it's not all "have your cake and eat it too..." especially if one is looking to save a ton of money. As you and several others have mentioned before, everything has a trade-off. I would hate to know that someone decided to give up the opportunity of lower cost or debt free higher education simply bc they didn't want to take a theology class or two...
Yes I agree @msop04. Where there is a will there is a way.

That's great. It's a great start. I wonder if they cover cost of books as well. Those can get really pricey, even if buying used.
I wonder why students can't (or can they) do textbooks online? Is that not an option in 2020. I am old school in my books but just thinking wouldn't that be a much more affordable option?

She is at the top of her class academically and an athlete....we are told that since she will qualify academically that she has a chance. The coach in her sport has been “watching” her for a while. We are cautiously hopeful.
Good luck to her @rocks. Sounds like she has more than a good chance of getting accepted to her first choice school. And an excellent one it is.

And the cost to administer all this reform, well the country will need to just suck that up.
Easier said than done. Work in progress and let's see if in a decade we are in a stronger and better position for our young people to receive a good and affordable education. I am pleased to see that more affordable options exist though perhaps not at the schools one might want to attend. There do seem to be affordable choices at some very good schools. And some very good options. It is far from perfect but few things are perfect and yes (from my perspective) there are countries that do it better. It's all about prioritizing and while we might not be the ones who get to decide what is most important in order of priority we live in this country for better or worse so have to deal with what is while working towards what we hope and want it to be in the future. And that starts with right now.

@LLJsmom Sending you and L (and L in the future) lots of good luck for them to attend the college of their dreams and the one that fits them (and you guys) best. XOXO.


Just wanted to pop in and say that Connecticut has a new program called PACT where you can attend community college free if you meet certain requirements:

Have graduated from a CT high school

Be attending college for the first time

Attend college full time

Fill out FAFSA and all accept all awards

Remain in good academic standing once enrolled
Thanks for chiming in @StephanieLynn with that info and there are definitely good and affordable options do exist. One has to search a bit perhaps but they are available. Maybe it isn't the school of one's dreams but if one dreams of attending college it can be done.

Yes, @missy... we are totally on the same page. =)2
Yes, I believe we are @msop04.
 

Slick1

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Yes, a lot of prestigious institutions offer amazing need-based tuition on a sliding scale. For example, I have read that Yale will offer tuition at 10% of your income if your family makes less than $200k. Of course room and board is a significant expense to consider as well. I know that my DD’s swanky small liberal arts school offered many need-based scholarships as their endowments are plentiful. They had students from all over the world take advantage of these programs.

Sending luck to all who are entering this phase. Somehow we did it for our two, at the same time, and so can you! Where there is a will, there is a way!

Off to teach and prepare future college applicants!
 
Last edited:

kipari

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To me, this would also mean lower incentive as well...
The human mind seems to work differently though. You'd still be earning more by working more. Can't find the study right now,but humans prefer to earn "more than their peers" vs "more in absolute terms". So everyone is on a cushy base of social security and health insurance and you'll earn relatively more by working harder. No incentive conflict.

(And there are types like my DH, who aren't primarily money driven. He needs to be intellectually challenged and relatively autonomous in his work)
 

missy

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And there are types like my DH, who aren't primarily money driven. He needs to be intellectually challenged and relatively autonomous in his work
This is me. But with one caveat. I have to be earning enough to live comfortably. I chose my profession almost 40 years ago knowing I would not get rich (far from it) going into that field. Rather I knew I could be relatively autonomous and feel intellectually challenged but fulfilled in my career yet never breaking solid middle class earnings. It was enough for me. Yes many years after my decision I met and fell in love with my dh making life easier financially speaking but that was never a requirement for me. I wanted to enjoy my work and earn enough to have a small modest apartment and travel and enjoy life. But money was never (and will never be) the motivating factor for me.

I wrote it before and I will write it again. If we choose wisely when going into a particular field life becomes better. If one's motivation is to enjoy life the hours one is at work matters. IMO. We can't love our jobs all the time but we can at least choose something we will enjoy much of the time. Of course no one size fits all and you don't have to love your job to love your life. Depends on one's motivation factors and one's priorities. And now that I am retired I love my life still. So obviously one doesn't get all one's fulfillment from work. But it certainly goes a long way in making life nice when one enjoys what one does for a living.
 

missy

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Just asked my dh why he chose his profession (cannot believe I never asked him before) and he said he was concerned about the natural environment and wanted to do his part in improving the state of the environment and public health. It shifted over the years from the focus on the environment to focus on the environment and public health and safety.

Of course I knew that but I never formally asked him that question before. Thanks @kipari I think we have another topic for an interesting thread.
 

rocks

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@missy......many of the more prestigious schools committed to need blind admissions, meaning that if accepted, all financial need would be covered...and lived up to it. Your family can earn up to $200 k and the applicant can still be eligible for significant aid
 

missy

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@missy......many of the more prestigious schools committed to need blind admissions, meaning that if accepted, all financial need would be covered...and lived up to it. Your family can earn up to $200 k and the applicant can still be eligible for significant aid
Definitely a move in the right direction. When I attended this was not in place at place at my school. My parents earned significantly less and I did not qualify for any aid. IIRC the fact that my parents owned a home automatically disqualified me from receiving any help.
 

msop04

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The human mind seems to work differently though. You'd still be earning more by working more. Can't find the study right now,but humans prefer to earn "more than their peers" vs "more in absolute terms". So everyone is on a cushy base of social security and health insurance and you'll earn relatively more by working harder. No incentive conflict.

(And there are types like my DH, who aren't primarily money driven. He needs to be intellectually challenged and relatively autonomous in his work)
I can understand where you're coming from... For me, though, I wouldn't see any reason to push oneself to endure extremely vigorous programs (such as medical), if the payoff isn't there. I like my job, but I like the pay more. I'd love to sit around and play with diamonds and cats all day, but I'd rather have the lifestyle I do now.
 

rocks

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Definitely a move in the right direction. When I attended this was not in place at place at my school. My parents earned significantly less and I did not qualify for any aid. IIRC the fact that my parents owned a home automatically disqualified me from receiving any help.
Yes and no. There are unintended consequences. $1, 2 or 3 billion sounds like a lot of money, but endowments need to be working assets. You can’t use the principal to fund current expenses. Some of these schools have raided the endowment to fund the need blind policy while others have had to artificially increase tuition on full pay students....or both. What some do not realize is that many full pay students are not “trust fund” kids. This policy is impacting full pay applicant’s choices. some of these schools are seeing applications suffer, yielding a shrinking pool of full pay students. It needs to be a delicate balance.
 

missy

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Yes and no. There are unintended consequences. $1, 2 or 3 billion sounds like a lot of money, but endowments need to be working assets. You can’t use the principal to fund current expenses. Some of these schools have raided the endowment to fund the need blind policy while others have had to artificially increase tuition on full pay students....or both. What some do not realize is that many full pay students are not “trust fund” kids. This policy is impacting full pay applicant’s choices. some of these schools are seeing applications suffer, yielding a shrinking pool of full pay students. It needs to be a delicate balance.
Yes. I was a full pay student and very far away from a “Trust Fund” kid. Like with everything it’s a balancing act. Some more delicate balancing acts than others. And Always trade offs. All choices.
 
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