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Should student loan debt (USA) be forgiven?

msop04

Ideal_Rock
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Do you define the school of hard knocks as a brutal commute? Do you realize not everyone has parents who can provide their grown children free room and board so that the grown children can pay back loans?
I think you're missing the point, @nala... No one is saying that students shouldn't take out loans... most don't have $30K+ sitting around to pay immediately (not anyone I know anyway). Those who do must be responsible about it. If your income after graduation is going to be $28K and not likely to rise that much after time, then it's not very responsible to take out $100K in loans.

The only person who should be financially responsible for their poor choices is the person who made them. Period.
 

msop04

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And yet. You didn’t address my questions. Like I said. I’m shocked because most posters here define themselves as liberals. I expect republicans to disagree.
Why would anyone who can do math disagree??
 

YadaYadaYada

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When I was 18 I was totally on my own, had to pay rent so had to work full time and pay all my bills, no way I could afford to go to college and hated the idea of going into debt for a degree so instead I went into insurance. That was a choice, didn't want to be tied to debt so I didn't sign up for it.

If you make the choice to take out a loan then you should pay it back. Granted I don't agree with the skyrocketing cost of college but most employers want to see a degree, even if it had nothing to do with the job they just want to see you made the effort to attend college.

I do think most kids graduating high school have no idea what they want to do for the next 45-50 years but they are just picking something to study and signing up for these loans without really knowing how it will all pan out or whether it will be worth it in the long run.
 

nala

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I think you're missing the point, @nala... No one is saying that students shouldn't take out loans... most don't have $30K+ sitting around to pay immediately (not anyone I know anyway). Those who do must be responsible about it. If your income after graduation is going to be $28K and not likely to rise that much after time, then it's not very responsible to take out $100K in loans.

The only person who should be financially responsible for their poor choices is the person who made them. Period.
No. You are missing my point. I said that I take issue with the argument that most posters are writing. I paid for it so you should too. That’s the issue.
 

nala

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Why would anyone who can do math disagree??
Again. I said that I didn’t know the plan. I simply commented on the common argument people are using to disagree in this thread. It reminds me of republicans who do not support most government sponsored programs.
 

nala

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Right.

We borrow money… We pay it back. You borrow money… You pay it back.

Anyone who borrows money is responsible for paying it back.
And this is why Trump is going to win. If even liberals don’t support these ideas, we are doomed to another 4 years. But hey, we will all sleep well at night knowing that we are responsible individuals living under an irresponsible government.
 

msop04

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Again. I said that I didn’t know the plan. I simply commented on the common argument people are using to disagree in this thread. It reminds me of republicans who do not support most government sponsored programs.
I’m not gonna sit here and argue with you about a moot point. Our
personal feelings on the matter are irrelevant…

It is a far greater disservice to create an entitled victim mentality, than to teach the importance of personal/financial responsibility.
 

Asscherhalo_lover

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What kept you from transferring to a less expensive state school after you lost your student aid? Choosing to stay at the more expensive school cost you $60K... transferring may not have been what you'd planned or wanted necessarily, but it would've saved you a ton of money. You knew the private college was going to be more expensive... especially at the point you found out the aid was no longer available due to your mom's increased income. No one "screwed" anyone.

I hope you don't misinterpret this post as me being mean or insensitive to you, because that's not how it is intended. I've had a couple of friends that ended up having to transfer to a state school or junior college for the same reason - they didn't want to have such high student loans to pay back after graduating.
Because by the time we found out I was two years in, in a school with the best program where I would actually get a job after graduation. If we had any clue what would have happened my Mom probably would have held off on getting married, or at least we would have had more time to figure something out. The biggest thing that peeves me is that parental income is so heavily weighed on kids getting aid. To this day my Mom has actually contributed $0 to my education. Yet her income was my night and day. But I paid it, so that's that. FWIW I sure as heck went to a public college for grad school.
 

msop04

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And this is why Trump is going to win. If even liberals don’t support these ideas, we are doomed to another 4 years. But hey, we will all sleep well at night knowing that we are responsible individuals living under an irresponsible government.
And this is why Trump is going to win. If even liberals don’t support these ideas, we are doomed to another 4 years. But hey, we will all sleep well at night knowing that we are responsible individuals living under an irresponsible government.
This post makes absolutely no sense. I think it’s safe to say that liberals and conservatives alike understand the concept of borrowing money and repaying the debt. It is amazing to me how this could possibly be seen as irresponsible.
 

msop04

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Because by the time we found out I was two years in, in a school with the best program where I would actually get a job after graduation. If we had any clue what would have happened my Mom probably would have held off on getting married, or at least we would have had more time to figure something out. The biggest thing that peeves me is that parental income is so heavily weighed on kids getting aid. To this day my Mom has actually contributed $0 to my education. Yet her income was my night and day. But I paid it, so that's that. FWIW I sure as heck went to a public college for grad school.
Shoot, girl… I completely understand why you did! $60K is no joke.
 

Karl_K

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Again. I said that I didn’t know the plan. I simply commented on the common argument people are using to disagree in this thread. It reminds me of republicans who do not support most government sponsored programs.
It was a goverment program that created the problem in the first place.
 

rocks

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Do you define the school of hard knocks as a brutal commute? Do you realize not everyone has parents who can provide their grown children free room and board so that the grown children can pay back loans?
Yeah...my parents didn’t make me pay rent. I was 20 when I graduated from college.

Actually, we lived in a pretty dangerous part of Brooklyn. My parents made choices. There was a notorious crack house/sro next door to the apartment building we lived in (written up in the newspapers regularly). I was beaten up on my way to school twice. Bad enough for the perpetrator to be prosecuted. We lived in a tiny two bed, one bath. I shared a room with my brother. We had to sit in the laundry room to insure that our clothing would not be stolen. On multiple occasions we would come home to intruders trying to pry the bars off the windows. And even then, I didn’t think my life was so bad. My parents elected to stay there until my brother graduated from college. We never applied for, nor received financial aid. We are proud of that fact.

It took about two hours to get to midtown. In high school I was on my way to school by 6:30am. We had an 8 hour day, so home around 5:30. 90 minute trip. For work, on my way by 6am. As an associate, we generally worked until 8 or 9pm. The good news was that after 9 the bank I worked for paid for a car home. And still, I thought I was pretty lucky.

They moved to the suburbs to the “big house” once there were no college expenses to save for. I was taught personal responsibility at a very early age, and I’m glad I was.
 

nala

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Yeah...my parents didn’t make me pay rent.

Actually, we lived in a pretty dangerous part of Brooklyn. My parents made choices. There was a notorious crack house/sro next door to the apartment building we lived in (written up in the newspapers regularly). I was beaten up on my way to school twice. Bad enough for the perpetrator to be prosecuted. We lived in a tiny two bed, one bath. I shared a room with my brother. We had to sit in the laundry room to insure that our clothing would not be stolen. On multiple occasions we would come home to intruders trying to pry the bars off the windows. And even then, I didn’t think my life was so bad. My parents elected to stay there until my brother graduated from college. We never applied for, nor received financial aid. We are proud of that fact.

It took about two hours to get to midtown. In high school I was on my way to school by 6:30am. We had an 8 hour day, so home around 5:30. 90 minute trip. For work, on my way by 6am. As an associate, we generally worked until 8 or 9pm. The good news was that after 9 the bank I worked for paid for a car home. And still, I thought I was pretty lucky.

They moved to the suburbs to the “big house” once there were no college expenses to save for. I was taught personal responsibility at a very early age, and I’m glad I was.
So because you endured these “hardships” you feel it’s only right that others endure theirs as well?
It’s Too bad you didn’t apply for aid. Seems like you would have qualified and avoided such hardships. That’s the goal of this loan forgiveness. To allow for those who have made mistakes to move forward with their lives. That is where compassion comes in. Forgiveness of people’s poor choices.
 

redwood66

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So because you endured these “hardships” you feel it’s only right that others endure theirs as well?
@nala I am finding it hard to believe that you don't think persons who take out loans for college should not be responsible for paying them back? The taxpayers should not be on the hook to the tune of billions for people's mistakes they chose to make. Compassion is for the ones who have no choice in their circumstance.
 

nala

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@nala I am finding it hard to believe that you don't think persons who take out loans for college should not be responsible for paying them back? The taxpayers should not be on the hook to the tune of billions for people's mistakes they chose to make.
Lol. No. I’m playing devil’s advocate because I’m really shocked. Thank you for asking. I just have this idea that liberals are super compassionate. I mean. They fully supported loan mod. Welfare. Obamacare. I’m just shocked that most posters define themselves as liberals but draw the line here. Lol. Why draw the line at college loans. They fall under the rationale as other govt aid programs. In fact. I’m willing to bet that college loans helped to produce a lot of valuable contributing citizens. Doctors. Surgeons. Researchers. Teachers. People who help humanity. But for their one mistake of overpaying for college they are great human beings who deserve to pursue the American dream. We forgive teen moms who reproduce irresponsibly by giving them welfare, for example. There’s too many to list. That’s the liberal way. My comment here was to express my shock. Thank you for noticing.
 

rocks

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So because you endured these “hardships” you feel it’s only right that others endure theirs as well?
It’s Too bad you didn’t apply for aid. Seems like you would have qualified and avoided such hardships. That’s the goal of this loan forgiveness. To allow for those who have made mistakes to move forward with their lives. That is where compassion comes in. Forgiveness of people’s poor choices.
It’s a choice.

I never saw myself as deprived or needy. I understood that there would always be someone with more...and less.

And no, even if my parents had been willing to apply for aid, we wouldn’t have qualified. My parents had no personal debt. They had savings earmarked for school, and had business debt that was personally guaranteed.

Many of my classmates received generous aid, lived in affluent suburbs, and drove themselves home in their expensive cars to go on vacation. I never quite understood it,but also didn’t think much about it. Gaming the system was not an option. I also remember other genuinely needy classmates that showed up on full financial aid without the winter clothing they needed for our northeastern winters.....I had more than I needed, and gave away winter coats and sweaters.
 
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redwood66

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Lol. No. I’m playing devil’s advocate because I’m really shocked. Thank you for asking. I just have this idea that liberals are super compassionate. I mean. They fully supported loan mod. Welfare. Obamacare. I’m just shocked that most posters define themselves as liberals but draw the line here. Lol. Why draw the line at college loans. They fall under the rationale as other govt aid programs. In fact. I’m willing to bet that college loans helped to produce a lot of valuable contributing citizens. Doctors. Surgeons. Researchers. Teachers. People who help humanity. But for their one mistake of overpaying for college they are great human beings who deserve to pursue the American dream. We forgive teen moms who reproduce irresponsibly by giving them welfare, for example. There’s too many to list. That’s the liberal way. My comment here was to express my shock. Thank you for noticing.
There are resources for people who are truly dedicated to a profession but it requires work on their part to receive it. Our local hospital pays tuition for employees furthering their career into nursing or other medical professions requiring further education. They are required to sign contracts that they will remain for an agreed amount of time. Other businesses do this as well. The problem I and others have is forgiving debt for college that did not produce results in the form of higher pay or benefit to employers. Or those who did not even finish college but still have debt. Or people who just expect their college to be paid for by others when they signed on the dotted line. We have too many other things to pay for.
 

redwood66

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Oh I just noticed I had a total double negative in my original post to you @nala. Bad grammar.
Lemme fix it.

I am finding it hard to believe that you think persons who take out loans for college should not be responsible for paying them back?

I think you understood me anyway but still.
 

the_mother_thing

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Dear God I am so happy to read the majority of posts in this thread laced with so much common sense! :clap: :clap:

I do agree with what someone wrote above about needing a mandatory Personal Finance 101 course in high school. It would be more useful than many of the classes they'd take!
NC is making it mandatory, thank God! :clap: I talked a LOT with DD about money, debt, loans, etc., and shared practical lessons and details of my finances with her when she was old enough so she could see it first hand & understand, but she also mentioned several times that she thought there should be a course in HS teaching it as well for the kids who didn’t have ‘basic finances’ taught at home.

Separately, I am kinda tired of people blaming ‘the banks’ ... school loans, mortgages, credit cards, interest rates, etc. Banks ARE a business, and thanks to an immense amount of regulation (not saying it’s entirely unwarranted, mind you), it is a VERY expensive ‘business’ not only in terms of D2D operating costs but also the risk. And those regulations also are a big part of the reason many financial institutions had to make loans to some people they otherwise wouldn’t have due to income requirements/ability to pay.

How many geniuses does society lose out because they don't pursue the spark of a talent in math, science, whatever because they fear they can't afford to?
If they are ‘geniuses’, I’m pretty sure they can figure out how to go to college; less-"brilliant" people have managed to do it for years.

And this is why Trump is going to win. If even liberals don’t support these ideas, we are doomed to another 4 years.
Hallelujah! People won’t be perpetually taxed to death to spare other people from having to be responsible for their choices.
 

Bayek

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my simple answer is YES.

My long answer is yes because I believe these kids were sold bad information and believed they would be able to get out of college or grad school and improve themselves. When I was young any major could get a job.. today it's all STEM, not many people can do programming, yes there are coders and there are data scientists, robotics and many more areas where it's a heck of a lot more than just code 'boot camp'.. so I think we bailed out the Savings and Loans, car manufacturers, and banks we should bail out our kids and young adults, our most precious commodity, our future.
 

MakingTheGrade

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I don’t think all school debt should be wiped but I also don’t think it’s all as simple as “personal responsibility” either. I think tuition inflation and intentional predatory lending practices are problematic. If individuals need to be accountable then so do lending companies that are willfully malicious. Hassan Minaj did a patriot act episode on Netflix about some of the practices employed and some involve downright lying to students.

And as a physician who also teaches at a medical school and recently had a partner apply, there are so many costs to just applying to medical school successfully (don’t even get me started on tuition of med school itself on top of college debt) that it often really does feel like there are problematic economic barriers that are influencing who can pragmatically apply and also people’s choices of specialities and where they choose to practice. And med school is incredibly competitive and unfortunately most med schools will consciously or unconsciously be biased against candidates who went to community colleges, even if that was the fiscally responsible thing to do. The saving grace is that physicians currently earn a lot (assuming they don’t go into primary care or academia. Who needs those anyways) but I feel bad for whatever generation of graduating docs takes on all the debts for school just in time for the collapse of conventional healthcare as we know it and flattened physician salaries.

Personally I’d be happy to take a 50% pay cut to my physician salary if med school had been tuition free. I know that that would mean less money for me in the long run. But I don’t think I’d be any less happy and I think it’d do wonders for the field. Some med schools are already going this direction. Yay.
 

diamondseeker2006

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my simple answer is YES.

My long answer is yes because I believe these kids were sold bad information and believed they would be able to get out of college or grad school and improve themselves. When I was young any major could get a job.. today it's all STEM, not many people can do programming, yes there are coders and there are data scientists, robotics and many more areas where it's a heck of a lot more than just code 'boot camp'.. so I think we bailed out the Savings and Loans, car manufacturers, and banks we should bail out our kids and young adults, our most precious commodity, our future.
So you think it's fine to do that while penalizing those of us who sacrificed and saved to pay for college or the students who worked to pay tuition? Is it fair for us to have been responsible and also have to pay for the huge error of others? That's extremely unfair. There's nothing wrong with using community colleges and finishing at a state school, preferably nearby. Someone could do that with relatively little debt if they also worked part-time. As I said in an earlier post, most kids would have parents or a guidance counselor who might have warned them that $200k in debt when they want to be a communications major isn't the best idea.

I know a family right now whose daughter is either a junior or senior at a very expensive private college. They have five kids so can't afford to help them with college. But they allowed the child to go to this school because she wanted to, even with other relatives expressing concern about the debt. So she'll graduate and hopes to get a job in government in DC. She'll have high living expenses and very little chance of paying back those loans unless she happens to marry someone with money. I am very sorry, but I do not see that I have ANY reason or responsibility to help pay for her very poor decision.
 

msop04

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my simple answer is YES.

My long answer is yes because I believe these kids were sold bad information and believed they would be able to get out of college or grad school and improve themselves. When I was young any major could get a job.. today it's all STEM, not many people can do programming, yes there are coders and there are data scientists, robotics and many more areas where it's a heck of a lot more than just code 'boot camp'.. so I think we bailed out the Savings and Loans, car manufacturers, and banks we should bail out our kids and young adults, our most precious commodity, our future.
@Tekate, what was the bad information sold to students? What would hinder these kids from improving themselves?
 

rocks

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Another problem....freshman arrive at mediocre schools academically unprepared for college. The schools then test these kids to see what kind of remediation is needed. That translates into a 5 year bachelors degree, or a useless degree. Really? If they can’t perform at college level, they shouldn’t be there.
 

diamondseeker2006

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Another problem....freshman arrive at mediocre schools academically unprepared for college. The schools then test these kids to see what kind of remediation is needed. That translates into a 5 year bachelors degree, or a useless degree. Really? If they can’t perform at college level, they shouldn’t be there.
That actually is a huge issue. For some reason certain people in our state government decided that virtually everyone (other than special ed) should be on a college prep track, and so the C-average kids think they all should go to a 4 year school, too. So they manage to get in and end up dropping out, or like @rocks said, end up taking longer to get a useless degree and have all that debt. The sad thing is, there's a shortage of people going to trade schools and there's a lot more money to be made in some of those jobs. People such as plumbers, electricians, car mechanics, computer technicians, etc. stay busy and make good money. So everyone loses with the idea that all kids need a college prep academic track. I have said forever that there needs to be a tech/trade school track for a lot of students in high school. My state just doesn't get it, thus far. (Well, I have an idea why, but that's another issue.)

(Sorry for all the posts...this whole issue is one of my pet peeves after being an educator my entire career.)
 

Queenie60

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So because you endured these “hardships” you feel it’s only right that others endure theirs as well?
It’s Too bad you didn’t apply for aid. Seems like you would have qualified and avoided such hardships. That’s the goal of this loan forgiveness. To allow for those who have made mistakes to move forward with their lives. That is where compassion comes in. Forgiveness of people’s poor choices.
Really? Are you kidding? If you make poor choices, then face the consequences of your poor choices. Welcome to real life. I don't feel that I should pay for the poor choices of others.
 

msop04

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That actually is a huge issue. For some reason certain people in our state government decided that virtually everyone (other than special ed) should be on a college prep track, and so the C-average kids think they all should go to a 4 year school, too. So they manage to get in and end up dropping out, or like @rocks said, end up taking longer to get a useless degree and have all that debt. The sad thing is, there's a shortage of people going to trade schools and there's a lot more money to be made in some of those jobs. People such as plumbers, electricians, car mechanics, computer technicians, etc. stay busy and make good money. So everyone loses with the idea that all kids need a college prep academic track. I have said forever that there needs to be a tech/trade school track for a lot of students in high school. My state just doesn't get it, thus far. (Well, I have an idea why, but that's another issue.)

(Sorry for all the posts...this whole issue is one of my pet peeves after being an educator my entire career.)
My dad was a high school economics teacher for 32 years. He always said that the idea everyone needs to go to a 4 year school and requiring all these students to take higher maths, sciences, etc. was/is a huge mistake and disservice to ALL students involved.

The C average kids don’t want or need to take them (much less earn a good grade in them). Then the kids who DO want to be in those classes can’t actually benefit from them, because they’ve had to be “dumbed down” so that the C average and special ed students might have a chance at passing...

By the time I was in HS, he was getting really put off by all of this. When “no child left” behind was passed (early 2000s), that was pretty much straw that broke the camel’s back for him. He has said that enactment was a huge disservice to students of every level and the worst insult to education of his tenure... maybe ever. It made him a teacher to some, but a babysitter to those who were disruptive and/or had no business taking his class. So he was forced to make everything much easier, in an effort to have a higher actual pass rate. They still couldn’t/wouldn’t/didn’t pass the tests, but he was not allowed to actually fail them... and a lot of them took full advantage.

My sister teaches 2nd grade, and she’s constantly traveling to seminars and workshops dedicated to improving test scores.

She says the main thing she instructed to “teach” is how to take the standardized tests they give each year... but she loves being a teacher, and hopes education will somehow turn itself around for the better. So far, it’s only gotten worse.

I didn’t intend for this to be so long, but with the entitlement and victim mentality that is being taught these days, taking away responsibility of paying back student loans because of poor choices just seems like another huge step backward if we want these kids to make it in the real world.
 

Dancing Fire

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And yet. You didn’t address my questions. Like I said. I’m shocked because most posters here define themselves as liberals. I expect republicans to disagree.
whether you are a liberal or a conservative it is still your responsibility to pay off your debt. Entitlement!, entitlement!, entitlement!... :wall::wall:
 

nala

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whether you are a liberal or a conservative it is still your responsibility to pay off your debt. Entitlement!, entitlement!, entitlement!... :wall::wall:
Thank you Dancing Fire! I doubt that you read all my posts but thanks for chiming in. I rest my case! Guess you finally got the majority of the liberals on PS to agree with you on something!
 
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