Ringworm

[elizat]

I'm sorry about all of this. What a big pile of stress.

Do you have supplical to give to Fred? Its just high cal and fat nutrition paste. If he has health issues, maybe ask if it's ok for him to have it, but it's generally fine to give in situations like this.

 

[bludiva]

I'm sorry about all of this. What a big pile of stress.

Do you have supplical to give to Fred? Its just high cal and fat nutrition paste. If he has health issues, maybe ask if it's ok for him to have it, but it's generally fine to give in situations like this.

Poor Fred :/ +1 on this, we used Nutrical (same thing I think) when our little guy was really sick and it helped. We'd shoot a little into his mouth with a syringe or smear on his lips.

 

[cmd2014]

Oh Missy,

Poor Fred. Poor you!!! Oliver is such a cutie and clearly a lovebug, but I am horrified to hear that he has inadvertently put everyone else (including you and Greg) at risk. What a nightmare! I am so pulling for everyone to pull through.

We had a similar (but WAY less serious) issue when we brought our Max home from the Humane Society. Unbeknownst to us all he had tapeworms. Tons and tons of tapeworms that came out his little bum in live worm segments everywhere and infected our other cat (also a senior fellow in fragile health who was 15 at the time) and potentially us, as we had had Max in our bed too until we discovered worm segments crawling everywhere, including the kitchen. We all had to be treated, and neither myself nor our senior cat tolerated the treatment well (we were both really sick from the meds - but at that point, what are you going to do, you literally have no choice).

I don't think shelters do enough to ensure that these situations don't happen. I would hate to see an animal euthanized for something treatable, but putting people and other pets at risk is terrible. Not everyone has the resources or time or willingness to do what you and Greg are doing to try to save your pets, and not everyone is going to be well enough (like your poor Fred) to be able to tolerate treatment. And even the idea that you might lose your existing pets to something avoidable is excruciating. I am so, so, so sorry that this is happening to you. I want to cry for you and wish that there was something that we could all do to help.

Sending lots of dust your way.

 

[bludiva]

I don't think shelters do enough to ensure that these situations don't happen.

I know they're overburdened, especially during kitten season, but yes. We got a litter of kittens to foster last year that were seriously sick and we had no idea. We lost one, fortunately the others made it. But they came with no warning and no meds even though they were all seen by the shelter vet. We still don't know what they had and if it was viral or not but they could have gotten other animals and humans sick.

Another volunteer we know basically won't work with small kittens anymore because one that was in transit got all of her fosters ill a few years ago. Everyone is trying to do their best with few resources but man, the unintended consequences can be so brutal.

Fingers & paws crossed for your kitties, Missy!

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

oh Missy
i don't know what to say
poor Fred, poor Ollie
poor sad everyone
just keep going
you have to just keep going
dig deep and find the strength
Kia Kaha
(stay strong)

 

[missy]

I'm so sorry you are going through all of this Missy, I can't imagine the stress of it all.

I wanted to comment on the roundworm with Oliver, when we adopted Dexter last year he too had roundworm and the vet told us a flea treatment (like the one you apply to the back of the neck) would eliminate them. Well that proved to not be true and we have young kids so I had to get rid of them ASAP. I actually got a liquid wormer and gave it to him and that worked immediately. If you want I can try to find out which one it was. I remember going to Petco and not being able to find it there so I might have ordered it from Amazon. The other cats can also become infected if they were using the same box, drinking the same water or grooming each other so usually you treat all the cats at the same time but of course Fred is a concern as you don't want to overwhelm him. It is a liquid so easy to administer.

Thanks Stephanie and glad you all got through it. From what my vets told me roundworm is transmitted through stool not drinking water but I guess anything is possible right? Anyway the other cats are negative for it thank goodness and as you wrote it is the least of our problems at the moment. Appreciate your sharing your experience and glad your kids didn't get it. My sister recommended two dewormers and I ordered both of them lol. Panacure and Drontal. I overnighted them so we have them both here and I started treating Oliver. The local vet gives them something for it that my sister said is too weak. Who knew how hard it would be to find a good vet locally. Wish my sister lived closer. Glad Dexter is doing well.

 

[missy]

I'm sorry about all of this. What a big pile of stress.

Do you have supplical to give to Fred? Its just high cal and fat nutrition paste. If he has health issues, maybe ask if it's ok for him to have it, but it's generally fine to give in situations like this.

Poor Fred :/ +1 on this, we used Nutrical (same thing I think) when our little guy was really sick and it helped. We'd shoot a little into his mouth with a syringe or smear on his lips.

Thanks Eliza and Bludiva. Yes he is refusing Nutrical too. My sister advised us to give him She also told us to administer Mirtizpine to help his appetite and Neo-synephrine to clear his nasal passages (he has an URI again) and it helped a bit as he ate a bite of food last night. But a bite of food in 5 days won't sustain him. But we continue to do what we can and hope for the best.

 

[missy]

Oh Missy,

Poor Fred. Poor you!!! Oliver is such a cutie and clearly a lovebug, but I am horrified to hear that he has inadvertently put everyone else (including you and Greg) at risk. What a nightmare! I am so pulling for everyone to pull through.

We had a similar (but WAY less serious) issue when we brought our Max home from the Humane Society. Unbeknownst to us all he had tapeworms. Tons and tons of tapeworms that came out his little bum in live worm segments everywhere and infected our other cat (also a senior fellow in fragile health who was 15 at the time) and potentially us, as we had had Max in our bed too until we discovered worm segments crawling everywhere, including the kitchen. We all had to be treated, and neither myself nor our senior cat tolerated the treatment well (we were both really sick from the meds - but at that point, what are you going to do, you literally have no choice).

I don't think shelters do enough to ensure that these situations don't happen. I would hate to see an animal euthanized for something treatable, but putting people and other pets at risk is terrible. Not everyone has the resources or time or willingness to do what you and Greg are doing to try to save your pets, and not everyone is going to be well enough (like your poor Fred) to be able to tolerate treatment. And even the idea that you might lose your existing pets to something avoidable is excruciating. I am so, so, so sorry that this is happening to you. I want to cry for you and wish that there was something that we could all do to help.

Sending lots of dust your way.

Thanks for sharing your experience and glad it all went well for you. Not fun to have tapeworms all over. I am sorry you got so sick from treatment. That is our issue. My sister says to stop all ringworm treatments and just give Fred supportive care. But if we stop all treatments then the other cats despite being treated will not be able to clear the ringworm if Fred continues spreading it. And we cannot isolate Fred as that is just as good as signing his death sentence He cannot tolerate being isolated. We tried last week and it was a miserable fail. You're right too in that many people wouldn't be able to do what we are (trying to do) as the cost is pretty high and keeps going up. I never realized how expensive it would be. I mean we have had our fair share of vet bills but this is into the many thousands and we might have months left of this. I don't care about the expense though as I just want our babies to get better. I can do without other stuff. It's just stuff. But I want my babies to make it and get healthy. I know you get it. And thank you for your empathy.

 

[missy]

I know they're overburdened, especially during kitten season, but yes. We got a litter of kittens to foster last year that were seriously sick and we had no idea. We lost one, fortunately the others made it. But they came with no warning and no meds even though they were all seen by the shelter vet. We still don't know what they had and if it was viral or not but they could have gotten other animals and humans sick.

Another volunteer we know basically won't work with small kittens anymore because one that was in transit got all of her fosters ill a few years ago. Everyone is trying to do their best with few resources but man, the unintended consequences can be so brutal.

Fingers & paws crossed for your kitties, Missy!

Yes the shelters are overwhelmed. There aren't enough people to help. That is how we adopted Oliver as he needed us with his severe corneal ulcer. He was going to lose his eye. But believe me if we realized he had ringworm no way would we have put our other cats at risk. I feel sick about it but I know there is no going back and what is done is done. We had him checked out but nothing showed up but Coccidia and his severe corneal ulcer. After decades of having cats as part of our family I had no clue what ringworm was or ever experienced anything remotely close to what we are dealing with now. You are right. The unintended consequences are brutal. And you know what they say about good intentions.

Thanks for your good wishes.

 

[missy]

oh Missy
i don't know what to say
poor Fred, poor Ollie
poor sad everyone
just keep going
you have to just keep going
dig deep and find the strength
Kia Kaha
(stay strong)

Thank you dear Daisy.

 

[distracts]

I mean we have had our fair share of vet bills but this is into the many thousands and we might have months left of this.

oh my god... what on earth is so expensive about it? I think I paid about $150-200 total to treat the ringworm, maybe $30 for the pills, $100 for the vet appt, and the rest on ointments/shampoos mainly trying to find one I wasn't allergic to. And I thought MY vet was expensive... she's used by a lot of the specialty rescues for their difficult cases because she's really good, and she charges more than most vets in the area.

I was wondering if a pill antifungal would be better for Fred... even if it's not the most effective, it's probably easier/faster to get a pill down than the liquid... would take longer to clear but probably would be less stressful for him? I've never had to give my cats liquid medicine before and I can't even imagine doing so. I used to have to give liquids to my rabbit and she spat them out a lot and unlike with pills, you can't just push it back in!

 

[PintoBean]

Ask your sister if it's ok to give everyone lysine.

 

[missy]

oh my god... what on earth is so expensive about it? I think I paid about $150-200 total to treat the ringworm, maybe $30 for the pills, $100 for the vet appt, and the rest on ointments/shampoos mainly trying to find one I wasn't allergic to. And I thought MY vet was expensive... she's used by a lot of the specialty rescues for their difficult cases because she's really good, and she charges more than most vets in the area.

I was wondering if a pill antifungal would be better for Fred... even if it's not the most effective, it's probably easier/faster to get a pill down than the liquid... would take longer to clear but probably would be less stressful for him? I've never had to give my cats liquid medicine before and I can't even imagine doing so. I used to have to give liquids to my rabbit and she spat them out a lot and unlike with pills, you can't just push it back in!

Wow you got off easy @distracts. We never leave the vet without spending lots of money and these past 2 months we have spent thousands. Unbelievable right? And I am not including Francesca's chemo treatments and meds the last week of her life which cost a lot. And she died in a week but at least we know we did everything we could do.

This is how the bills added up so fast @distracts: Last month Tommy, Bobby and Fred got very ill. They all stopped eating and had fevers. Took them to the local vet. For 3 cats it was over 1K for that 1 visit. She gave them antibiotic injections, fluids (Sub Q not IV so we could have done that and we did for the week following while they were recuperating) and only Tommy got blood work. Tommy's blood work cost us $450. Don't ask. Over 1K in bills for that 1 visit for 3 cats. For Oliver's eye we have spent over 2K at the vet ophthalmologist on visits (3 so far) and meds (many different drops round the clock). And now on ringworm we have spent in excess of 2K so we are over 5K right now. Between vet visits for each of the 4 cats, cultures, meds (each bottle is $70 and we go through a bottle in 4 days), topicals and lime baths times 4 we are spending well over $500 a week now. And my estimate might be light. It is mind boggling but this is not the worst part. The worst part is they are getting worse it seems. More hair coming off Bobby and Fred. Oliver might be turning a corner but I am not sure about that. Greg feels Oliver is getting better so I will hold onto that hope.

Thanks for the pill suggestion. I will ask again at the vets office but from what I understand Itrafungol is the gold standard for ringworm and the more compromised a cat is immune wise the more important it is to give them the best treatment. He doesn't do pills well either so I am not sure it will go more smoothly. The cat that we are having the hardest time with re liquid is Bobby as he needs a lot of liquid since he is 16 lbs. He needs four times what Oliver needs and he spits it out. No matter which way we look at this it's very challenging. I want Fred to recover from this as he might be old but he has life left in him and it's so upsetting that ringworm might be his undoing. I am praying and hoping so hard that we can get him through this ordeal. My sister tells us to stop treating Fred for ringworm but if we do the other cats cannot recover. Nor can we. The local vet says we cannot stop treating Fred if we want everyone to get well because one cat infected keeps everyone sick. My sister is concerned about Fred's life as are we. But what do we do? We have 3 other cats with ringworm. So this is our week off Itrafungol but lime dip is due Tuesday. Fred needs the lime dip as the hair loss and fungus is spreading on him. But it was the lime dip that caused him to get this latest URI.

Good news (there is some) is finally we got Fred to eat some more. My sister suggested Mirtizapine (appetite stimulant and anti nausea med) and Neo Synephrine to open up his nasal passages and it seems to be working.

 

[missy]

Ask your sister if it's ok to give everyone lysine.

We were giving them all L-Lysine (last month when they developed an URI) before Matata weighed in and said it was shown to be harmful to cats and she linked info but I have to find that if you are interested. IIRC it depletes arginine or something like that in cats. Thanks for your suggestion and if you have any other ideas please share. I know with your kitties you have lots of experience.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

thank goodness Fred had something to eat

 

[mtsapphirelovingannie]

I'm glad Fred has eaten! I hope today continues to be a positive one for him.

 

[PintoBean]

We were giving them all L-Lysine (last month when they developed an URI) before Matata weighed in and said it was shown to be harmful to cats and she linked info but I have to find that if you are interested. IIRC it depletes arginine or something like that in cats. Thanks for your suggestion and if you have any other ideas please share. I know with your kitties you have lots of experience.

Yes I saw the articles online where around 2015 on lysine was frowned upon because of what you stated above.

I wouldn't oppose giving lysine short time, like once a day for a week, but not long term.

 

[missy]

thank goodness Fred had something to eat

I'm glad Fred has eaten! I hope today continues to be a positive one for him.

Thanks Daisy and mtsappirelovingannie. He's not doing well though and I am back to feeling this might be it for him. He is lying lifeless in front of the attic door where it is like 110 degrees F and he won't move. He is just laying still and looks unhappy. I don't know how to make him feel better. Hoping he rallies. Giving him sub q fluids soon.

Yes I saw the articles online where around 2015 on lysine was frowned upon because of what you stated above.

I wouldn't oppose giving lysine short time, like once a day for a week, but not long term.

Thanks Pinto. Do you or anyone reading have any suggestions on how to give Bobby liquid anti fungal meds? Bobby has a huge amount of liquid due to his weight and we are breaking it up but no matter the amount or how slow I give the Itrafungol it he spits it out and froths at the mouth. I just tried giving him his dose and we went though 9 ccs of Itrafungol as he kept spitting it out and frothing and got saliva and meds all over himself and us. It's a sticky mess. I am concerned as his ringworm is spreading and getting much worse with lots more hair loss so he really needs the correct amount of Itrafungol to get into him.

@ecf8503 any suggestions on how to get the liquid into Bobby? He's 16 lbs of terror. We hold him with a towel to restrain him and then I slowly give him the meds with the syringe on the side of his mouth between his teeth down his throat but no matter what I do it comes out with lots of saliva. Thanks.

 

[PintoBean]

Thanks Daisy and mtsappirelovingannie. He's not doing well though and I am back to feeling this might be it for him. He is lying lifeless in front of the attic door where it is like 110 degrees F and he won't move. He is just laying still and looks unhappy. I don't know how to make him feel better. Hoping he rallies. Giving him sub q fluids soon.



Thanks Pinto. Do you or anyone reading have any suggestions on how to give Bobby liquid anti fungal meds? Bobby has a huge amount of liquid due to his weight and we are breaking it up but no matter the amount or how slow I give the Itrafungol it he spits it out and froths at the mouth. I just tried giving him his dose and we went though 9 ccs of Itrafungol as he kept spitting it out and frothing and got saliva and meds all over himself and us. It's a sticky mess. I am concerned as his ringworm is spreading and getting much worse with lots more hair loss so he really needs the correct amount of Itrafungol to get into him.

@ecf8503 any suggestions on how to get the liquid into Bobby? He's 16 lbs of terror. We hold him with a towel to restrain him and then I slowly give him the meds with the syringe on the side of his mouth between his teeth down his throat but no matter what I do it comes out with lots of saliva. Thanks.

I like the "blow job" method for pills. Never tried it with liquid, but it could work. Tilt head back, dose as far down the throat as possible, clamp mouth shut, blow on nose. The blowing action makes them lick their nose and swallow.

 

[distracts]

I really think you ought to ask the vet about an antifungal that can be given in pill form, at least for Fred and Bobby. It will be much easier to judge whether the cat has swallowed it or not, and even if less effective, all of a less-effective antifungal is better than some or none of the most effective one. Even if your cat won't eat pill pockets, with a pill popper administering a pill is pretty easy since you can put it straight back into their throat.

I have read online that you can also get the medicine you are using in capsule form and open the capsules and measure out the beads to the correct dosage, then put in a new capsule... that may be easier than what you are currently doing, especially if a compounding pharmacy can do that part for you.

 

[ecf8503]

@ecf8503 any suggestions on how to get the liquid into Bobby? He's 16 lbs of terror. We hold him with a towel to restrain him and then I slowly give him the meds with the syringe on the side of his mouth between his teeth down his throat but no matter what I do it comes out with lots of saliva. Thanks.[/QUOTE]

Ask about the 50mg Sporanox capsules available for humans

 

[cmd2014]

I am so sorry to hear that Fred and Bobby are struggling so much still. You must be beside yourself with worry.

I have had to do drop by drop with a spitter/frother of a cat. Literally one drop at a time - not enough to spit out. It takes forever and is miserable for everyone. It helps if you flip them on their back. I’d do it sitting with them on their back on my knees (wrapped in a towel to avoid scratches, holding them with my knees and one arm). Somehow if they are right side up it helps with spitting. It sounds like a capsule might be better.

 

[PintoBean]

How about getting some empty gel capsules and filling them with some meds so it will be easier to drop down the hatch?

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

Missy
how are you two and the moggies today ?

 

[missy]

Missy
how are you two and the moggies today ?

Hi Daisy, thanks for asking. We are taking all 4 cats for their weekly lime dip. It's Oliver's third lime dip and Fred and Bobby and Tommy's second lime dip. We have been going back and forth in our discussions about what to do with Fred. The stress of the lime sulfur dip caused Fred an immediate URI which means the virus was present before hand but the stress of the lime dip made him succumb to the URI. It took us almost a week to get him eating and back to somewhat normal behavior though he isn't quite there yet. However the fungus has now spread to his entire front leg whereas before it was just on his face. So we have a dilemma which is putting us and Fred between a rock and a hard place.

The vet we are seeing says either we dip him and continue the ora antifungals or we must keep him separate forever from the others as he will not get over the ringworm without treatment. His immune system is greatly compromised due to his age and health. So there you have it. Greg and I decided we have to try getting him better so we are bringing him in today for his second lime sulfur dip. If he gets sick again we might have to make a difficult decision as this treatment is months and months long and from what I am observing all the cats are getting worse.

Bobby's ringworm has spread as well as has little Oliver's. So there you have it. Our dismal update. I cannot express how much we love our cats and how devastating this is for us to see them suffer with these harsh treatments and then not seeing improvement yet. It is a slow process but one that is super hard on older cats and all our cats (with the exception of Oliver) are older. Fred is 16, Tommy is over 12 and Bobby is 10. I was surprised Bobby got ringworm though but what that means is his health isn't as good as perhaps we thought it was or he wouldn't have caught ringworm probably. And Bobby's health is worsening quickly. He is now afraid of me and when I approach he runs away. Even for just the topical treatment. So Bobby is the most difficult to do any treatments on and he is not responding well to any of the treatments. Lime dip, oral antifungals and now just topicals. You can imagine how we are feeling. And poor Greg is upset that Fred is running away from him too due to Greg doing Fred's topical treatments every day three times a day.

I wish I had a happier update to share and the truth is I am not sure we are going to have our happy ending. And not just for Fred but for Bobby too. I think Oliver will recover as he is young but observing Bobby's decline as well as Fred's decline well has me thinking of all the possibilities. It's surreal. I cannot believe ringworm might be the end of one or 2 of my cats or g-d forbid even worse. I spoke with Doug yesterday. The lovely rescue guy we adopted Bobby from in 2009 and told him what is happening. He said ringworm is very hard on older cats and he had it twice in his household of 5 cats and 3 dogs. He said it took the better part of a year for everyone to get better but they were younger. He also said generally everyone will recover but yes older cats cannot fight it themselves and sometimes the treatments cannot help especially if the treatments stress them out. And these are stressful treatments. He had no words of advice to offer but sympathy and empathy and of course much sadness for what is happening to our poor kitties.

Fred



Tommy



Tommy
(we had to replace all cat blankets etc with towels that we can launder daily and the cat beds we also wash daily in the washing machine).



Bobby




Patient Zero

 

[missy]

I am so sorry to hear that Fred and Bobby are struggling so much still. You must be beside yourself with worry.

I have had to do drop by drop with a spitter/frother of a cat. Literally one drop at a time - not enough to spit out. It takes forever and is miserable for everyone. It helps if you flip them on their back. I’d do it sitting with them on their back on my knees (wrapped in a towel to avoid scratches, holding them with my knees and one arm). Somehow if they are right side up it helps with spitting. It sounds like a capsule might be better.

Thanks so much for chiming in and sharing advice. I so appreciate it. Bobby needs many ccs of fluid every day so it would be impossible to hold him for that long to get all the liquid down his throat. But we are holding him well with the towel and it's just he is hypersalivation and I think some cats do that. I read all the studies and 2 of 80 cats in the Itrafungol research paper I read hypersalivated. Poor Bobby. We keep plugging along hoping he is getting enough med to jump start his immune system to kill the darn fungus.

 

[missy]

@ecf8503 any suggestions on how to get the liquid into Bobby? He's 16 lbs of terror. We hold him with a towel to restrain him and then I slowly give him the meds with the syringe on the side of his mouth between his teeth down his throat but no matter what I do it comes out with lots of saliva. Thanks.

Ask about the 50mg Sporanox capsules available for humans[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the info @ecf8503 and I will ask today. It's their weekly lime dip. I am so nervous because of Fred's reaction last time but after much discussion with my dh we decided we have to go ahead and try as Fred's fungus has now spread to his entire front leg from just his face.

 

[missy]

I really think you ought to ask the vet about an antifungal that can be given in pill form, at least for Fred and Bobby. It will be much easier to judge whether the cat has swallowed it or not, and even if less effective, all of a less-effective antifungal is better than some or none of the most effective one. Even if your cat won't eat pill pockets, with a pill popper administering a pill is pretty easy since you can put it straight back into their throat.

I have read online that you can also get the medicine you are using in capsule form and open the capsules and measure out the beads to the correct dosage, then put in a new capsule... that may be easier than what you are currently doing, especially if a compounding pharmacy can do that part for you.

Thanks @distracts I am asking at the vet's office today. Appreciate you sharing this with me. The problem is compounded Itrafungol has been shown not to be effective so not sure what that means about the other options but definitely will be asking today.

 

[missy]

I like the "blow job" method for pills. Never tried it with liquid, but it could work. Tilt head back, dose as far down the throat as possible, clamp mouth shut, blow on nose. The blowing action makes them lick their nose and swallow.

Thanks we are doing the "blow job" method now. Not sure if it is helping but it cannot hurt right? Thank you.

How about getting some empty gel capsules and filling them with some meds so it will be easier to drop down the hatch?

It's too much liquid to get into capsules (4 ccs or 8 ccs depending which dose we decide to do) but will be asking about other forms of the anti fungal. Thank you for your input and advice @PintoBean.

 

[yssie]

Oh, that is a dreary update @missy.
I was hoping Fred would continue eating... And I'm SO sorry to read that Bobby is getting worse

We discovered yesterday that of our cats has a tumour on his leg. It's probably been there for a while, getting worse - he started limping day before yesteerday. He's terrified of the carrier - he's 17lbs of muscle and fights like his life depends on getting away, and we're so scared of hurting him! The only way we can ever catch him is by cornering him in a bedroom, rigging the door to drape a fitted bedsheet over him when he bolts past, and scaring him into bolting past (which doesn't take much - walking toward him with said carrier is enough!)

I've been wondering if there's a sedative spray we could use first. I've asked at our vet... I'll update here if I hear anything promising. We use Feliway by the gallon - diffusers, sprays, you name it. Stuff is crazy pricey. I don't know if it's all hype or actually useful.

::HUGS::