question for parents

[princesss]

Date: 10/28/2009 9:49:30 AM
Author: Tacori E-ring
Not to beat a dead horse but the fact that you are so open minded regarding my comments instead of angry and defensive tells me you might think we are all right. Listen, I don''t know you but I know how hard it is to let go sometimes when you love someone. Maybe you realize B is NOT the man you want to spend your life with. Just like someone said the only constant with his two daughters is HIM. He is to blame for at least some of the problem. I would spend every last penny to protect my child. That is the normal and healthy response for a parent. Someday if you have a child you will understand where we are all coming from. Children are innocent, blameless and so easily molded by outside influences. It is prudent that you provide a healthy and happy environment so they can become healthy and happy adults and in return raise healthy and happy children. B has more than dropped the ball. They have talk shows that revolve around men like him. But I do believe you love him and are blinded by that love. Don''t live your life in fear. Fear of being alone or someone else will hurt you too. You have to believe there is someone better out there for you. I urge you to see a therapist and explore why you are with a man who is so much older than you and obviously does not value or respect you. You MUST take care of YOURSELF. Is this relationship healthy for you? Are you happy? Is this the man you can to have children (if you want children) with? Marriage is hard but we all deserve love and respect. It is in your control. I would hate to see you stay b/c you don''t know what else to do.

Ditto this whole post. TP, there is a lot that is unhealthy in this situation, and it might benefit you to see a counselor and sort through it.

I do not know a parent that would not, from day one, sacrifice everything to make sure their child was safe.

Also, I''m curious - were you and B told that his daughter was hopeless by the psychologists, or was B told and he told you? Because I''m really having trouble believing that any psychologist with a shred of credibility would say, "This child is hopeless, and it''s going to hurt her more to try to get her out of this unhealthy, unsafe environment than it will to leave her there." But I can believe that a person who did not want to bother anymore would tell his very caring, very involved, very impressionable GF that.

B has a history of dropping out of the picture when things get tough with the females in his life. 2 divorces, 2 abandoned daughters (because you do not "cut off" or "become estranged from" a 10 year old. You ABANDON them). He''d rather work on his plane than help his child. He''d rather work on his plane than keep his daughter safe. If that''s how he ranks his child on his priority scale, what''s going to happen when *you* need to be kept safe? You take care of him a lot, from preparing his taxes to caring for him when his illness flares up. Would he do the same for you? Would he stick by you in you were in an accident, and, God forbid, became paralyzed or needed constant care?

Honestly, TP, I''m terrified for his daughters and I''m scared for you.

 

[KimberlyH]

Date: 10/28/2009 9:49:30 AM
Author: Tacori E-ring
Not to beat a dead horse but the fact that you are so open minded regarding my comments instead of angry and defensive tells me you might think we are all right. Listen, I don''t know you but I know how hard it is to let go sometimes when you love someone. Maybe you realize B is NOT the man you want to spend your life with. Just like someone said the only constant with his two daughters is HIM. He is to blame for at least some of the problem. I would spend every last penny to protect my child. That is the normal and healthy response for a parent. Someday if you have a child you will understand where we are all coming from. Children are innocent, blameless and so easily molded by outside influences. It is prudent that you provide a healthy and happy environment so they can become healthy and happy adults and in return raise healthy and happy children. B has more than dropped the ball. They have talk shows that revolve around men like him. But I do believe you love him and are blinded by that love. Don''t live your life in fear. Fear of being alone or someone else will hurt you too. You have to believe there is someone better out there for you. I urge you to see a therapist and explore why you are with a man who is so much older than you and obviously does not value or respect you. You MUST take care of YOURSELF. Is this relationship healthy for you? Are you happy? Is this the man you can to have children (if you want children) with? Marriage is hard but we all deserve love and respect. It is in your control. I would hate to see you stay b/c you don''t know what else to do.

With all due respect, Tacori, I don''t think a person needs to have children to understand why this is such a horrific situation for both of his children, anyone with some common sense and a bit of compassion would be appalled.

TP, I don''t usually get stuck on strangers lives, but last night you popped into my head a few times as I am simply stunned that you can rationalize any of this man''s behavior, let alone go to bed next to him every night. Again, I really wish you would spend some time away from him contemplating why you are involved with him and what it says about who you are as a person.

 

[Aloros]

Yeeeah, something doesn''t smell right here. My stepson has some emotional issues (mother is relapsing drug addict, has a criminal record and a record with CPS). He has a lot of anger, and it can be very hard to deal with him. But underneath all that is just a KID.

Oh, we''ve been through the false abuse allegations as well, instigated by mom. I have a really hard time believing that CPS would pick up on a little red mark as a sign of abuse. If these allegations have already been proven false, then they''re not likely to keep rushing to her aid. If you keep some minimal documentation, and her psychologist can vouch for you...I don''t see that this would be a continuing problem. And these manipulations would help your bf build a case against the mother. Courts these days are more and more aware of PAS (Parental Alienation Syndrome).

My DH isn''t the most naturally paternal man in the world, but even despite all of these difficulties, he is NOT giving up on his son. Even though my stepson has professed at times that he would like to go live with his mom, nuh-uh. Not going to happen. It''s not in his best interests. Sure it''d make things easier on US, but it''s not about us.

Is your bf''s behavior in his children''s best interests? Kids need more than a nice room, they need someone who is willing to fight for them. They need someone to fight for them even if they, themselves, seem to be against such action. These children are emotionally damaged, and they ESPECIALLY need their father to let them know that he will be there for them, no matter what.

At least, that''s the advice that our therapist gave on my 12-year-old stepson.

 

[princesss]

Date: 10/28/2009 11:30:50 AM
Author: KimberlyH

Date: 10/28/2009 9:49:30 AM
Author: Tacori E-ring
Not to beat a dead horse but the fact that you are so open minded regarding my comments instead of angry and defensive tells me you might think we are all right. Listen, I don''t know you but I know how hard it is to let go sometimes when you love someone. Maybe you realize B is NOT the man you want to spend your life with. Just like someone said the only constant with his two daughters is HIM. He is to blame for at least some of the problem. I would spend every last penny to protect my child. That is the normal and healthy response for a parent. Someday if you have a child you will understand where we are all coming from. Children are innocent, blameless and so easily molded by outside influences. It is prudent that you provide a healthy and happy environment so they can become healthy and happy adults and in return raise healthy and happy children. B has more than dropped the ball. They have talk shows that revolve around men like him. But I do believe you love him and are blinded by that love. Don''t live your life in fear. Fear of being alone or someone else will hurt you too. You have to believe there is someone better out there for you. I urge you to see a therapist and explore why you are with a man who is so much older than you and obviously does not value or respect you. You MUST take care of YOURSELF. Is this relationship healthy for you? Are you happy? Is this the man you can to have children (if you want children) with? Marriage is hard but we all deserve love and respect. It is in your control. I would hate to see you stay b/c you don''t know what else to do.

With all due respect, Tacori, I don''t think a person needs to have children to understand why this is such a horrific situation for both of his children, anyone with some common sense and a bit of compassion would be appalled.

TP, I don''t usually get stuck on strangers lives, but last night you popped into my head a few times as I am simply stunned that you can rationalize any of this man''s behavior, let alone go to bed next to him every night. Again, I really wish you would spend some time away from him contemplating why you are involved with him and what it says about who you are as a person.

True, Kim, but I know that as a non-parent I know I can''t grasp the depth of this situation. I logically know that parents are supposed to protect their kids and I''m horrified at the thought of somebody NOT doing it (especially to such an extreme), and my heart hurts for the little girl, but I don''t know what it is to love and care for a child like a parent does and so I can''t understand the horror of this situation to the degree that the parents on PS can. I''m guessing that''s what Tacori meant - not that TP can''t understand how bad the situation is (if she took a step back, or thought about anybody but B doing this), but that she won''t understand the depth of it until she has a child and feels the need to protect it at all costs.

 

[KimberlyH]

deleted because I went off topic, and an apology for doing so above as well.

 

[TooPatient]

I thank everyone for their concern.
(I have been doing much thinking since yesterday, but still beleive B was not the problem. I don''t know what I would have done if I was in his place and don''t think anyone can really know unless they are there.)

For the sake of the kids, I really do wish I was making this up and it was a hoax.

I didn''t mention any of this to upset anyone. I really did just want to know how many hours is normal. We received another letter in the mail regarding this so it was on my mind.

I don''t think I explained some things very well so I''ll try to clarify a couple of things.


The first daughter was 17 (4 months away from 1. Her mother called and threatened to kill herself if the girl didn''t come back to her (B had moved with his daughter to the other side of the country to get her help). There are recordings of the call. The girl wrote a letter to the judge stating that she really wanted to be with her mother.
What could be done? He could have tried to keep her away for another 4 months, but then she is an adult. She was already sneaking out, running away, etc.
She went to a private school with daily counseling in and out of school. Even went to a live in facility for awhile because she had gotten so bad.
B lost his house, airplane, savings, business (he had his own business for several years), and more.
He had managed to fight the mother in court successfully for 10 years though.

The daughter has since gotten married and seems quite happy in life (and has stopped contact with her mother). (I do have a contact who is able to keep me up to date.)


This younger daughter really leaves me sad. I was in the room when the psychologist said there was nothing we could do to help EVEN if the mother wasn''t around it was very slim chances.
I talked to another psychologist on my own who agreed with this.
At the time, we were living in an apartment barely able to pay rent. WAY behind on all other bills. Getting notices of power being shut off.
We are now in a house. Still having trouble paying bills (especially since the house is a fixer-upper).
The 2 airplanes are currently not flying (and haven''t in 3 years) and could with potentially be sold as scrap for a total of $20,000 or so. At best.
Of the money B makes (after taxes), about 45% goes to the mortgage, 45% goes to the daughter''s tuition/support/insurance/babysitters/classes/etc., 5% goes to car payment/cellphone.
Of the money I make (BEFORE taxes), 99% goes to electricity, water, internet, home phone, animal expenses (3 cats & dog), groceries.
Doesn''t leave much to work with.

Even if we gave up the house (which would cost money to leave) and went back to a small apartment, we couldn''t manage to fight the mother in court.

What we do:
Pay for private school. (we were the ones who pushed to get it in the court agreement)
Keep in touch with a few school staff people to see how she is doing.
Mentioned the possibility of abuse to the school psychologist so she can document stuff.
Have a mutual friend invite the girl over for meals, sleepovers, and holidays so she can have time with a normal happy family (with kids her age too) and get to observe holidays that she would otherwise miss. This friend has her over and lets her help with meal prep and table setting (which the girl loves).


I don''t know what else we can do. We don''t have any more money until I get a better job. I can''t qualify for a better job until I am closer to done with college.

If there was any chance at getting her away from her mother, we would have done it. And still would.
For now, we don''t have the money to even begin to fight her.
Maybe someday.
The mother''s health isn''t great. She''s already got skin cancer. Her mother died (just a few years older than she is now) of a heart problem that is very often hereditary. She is over weight, very sedintary, and eats a lousy diet.

If there was anything we could give up that would help in the slightest we would.
For now, the only comfort is that the mother rarely sees the daughter. She gets her up just before school starts & drops her off. After school is either with friends or the baby sitter. They put her to bed (including staying the night with friends on school days) and the mother comes home later. The only time they really have together is weekends and even then she is often with friends.
(and, yes, I have people who let me know how she is)

I don''t know what more we can do. We can''t take the girl and leave. What kind of a life would she have if we were always running and hiding?



I''m glad none of you have ever had to go through anything like this and I truly hope you never have to. It is a miserable situation and made worse because no one wants to beleive it is really that bad and there is nothing we can do. (a few people IRL who are very good friends have seen the e-mails/pictures/court stuff and are shocked because not only was I telling the truth, I left some of the worst out.)


Again, I am sorry this upset people and hope this clarifies a bit.

 

[fieryred33143]

Date: 10/28/2009 12:35:16 PM
Author: TooPatient
I thank everyone for their concern.
(I have been doing much thinking since yesterday, but still beleive B was not the problem. I don''t know what I would have done if I was in his place and don''t think anyone can really know unless they are there.)

And that was Tacori’s point. If you aren’t a parent, you don’t understand. A loving parent would not be conflicted with what to do. It wouldn’t even be an issue. Child is in danger, remove from situation. Child needs you, be there for them.
It doesn’t matter the reasons why he decided to “give back” his daughters. There is no reason why he shouldn’t have any contact with them now. Abused children need to feel loved and protected. A phone call to say “we’re here for you” would go a long way and be way more effective than well, we’re broke and your mom is crazy so catch you on the flip side

 

[robbie3982]

Date: 10/28/2009 12:35:16 PM
Author: TooPatient


If there was any chance at getting her away from her mother, we would have done it. And still would.

I thought you said he didn''t want to have anything to do with her. Ever.

 

[Lauren8211]

Ditto everyone else who is confused as all hell on this situation.

Why is private school such a priority when the kid is in trouble? I''m not grasping that. 1600/month - pay someone to SAVE THIS CHILD. That education will do her no good when she''s too depressed to get out of bed later in life.

How are you doing everything within your power to help when he''s clearly stated he doesnt want anything to do with her?

It makes no sense. This is serious. HELP HER.

 

[TravelingGal]

You are seeing jacked up shrinks.

What kind of shrink would say there is NOTHING you can do to help? And the other one who made the same assessment without even ever meeting the girl? This makes no sense to me. Your story is either a lie or you really really need to see better people for this.

Secondly, you are 24? OK, if everyone is going to be messed up, then save yourself.

Who signs up for this kind of life? Beside the type who jockey to be on Jerry Spring, that is.

I''ve decided you must be an inspiring 24 year old writer, because the alternative is too mind boggling for me.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

Date: 10/28/2009 12:54:50 PM
Author: fiery

Date: 10/28/2009 12:35:16 PM

Author: TooPatient

I thank everyone for their concern.

(I have been doing much thinking since yesterday, but still beleive B was not the problem. I don't know what I would have done if I was in his place and don't think anyone can really know unless they are there.)

And that was Tacori’s point. If you aren’t a parent, you don’t understand. A loving parent would not be conflicted with what to do. It wouldn’t even be an issue. Child is in danger, remove from situation. Child needs you, be there for them.

It doesn’t matter the reasons why he decided to “give back” his daughters. There is no reason why he shouldn’t have any contact with them now. Abused children need to feel loved and protected. A phone call to say “we’re here for you” would go a long way and be way more effective than well, we’re broke and your mom is crazy so catch you on the flip side

Thank you for helping me explain my comment Princesss and fiery. Of course anyone can sympathize and know this is not an okay situation and even feel sad, sick, angry, etc but thinking how you would respond and KNOWING is very different. I always loved kids but it wasn't until I became a mother I truly understood the depths (that describes it perfectly P!) I would go to protect my child.

I also think fiery made an excellent point. If his daughter was manipulated to go back to her abusive mother cutting off ties only gives the mother power. Even at 17 she is still the child. Yes, he could not physically keep her from returning to her mom but he was in total control of HIS relationship with his daughter. He dropped the ball. If he is this mentally stable, great guy you paint him to be than IMHO it makes him a monster to turn his back on his children. It isn't all about money. Calling her is free. Writing her a letter is (mostly) free. Going to one of her school concerts, sporting events, etc is all free. Being there is free. The easy road is most often the wrong road.

ETA: I agree the therapists are out of line. To say a child has no future. That is too horrible to even believe. There is hope. Also what you are doing IS NOT ENOUGH! Period. It might help you both sleep at night but private school, play dates, nannies, etc does not take the place of a father.

 

[KimberlyH]

Date: 10/28/2009 12:54:50 PM
Author: fiery

Date: 10/28/2009 12:35:16 PM
Author: TooPatient
I thank everyone for their concern.
(I have been doing much thinking since yesterday, but still beleive B was not the problem. I don''t know what I would have done if I was in his place and don''t think anyone can really know unless they are there.)

And that was Tacori’s point. If you aren’t a parent, you don’t understand. A loving parent would not be conflicted with what to do. It wouldn’t even be an issue. Child is in danger, remove from situation. Child needs you, be there for them.

It doesn’t matter the reasons why he decided to “give back” his daughters. There is no reason why he shouldn’t have any contact with them now. Abused children need to feel loved and protected. A phone call to say “we’re here for you” would go a long way and be way more effective than well, we’re broke and your mom is crazy so catch you on the flip side

Too Patient doesn''t understand, that doesn''t mean others who aren''t parents can''t and don''t.

Ditto to the rest of this post. You rationalize and reason but it still makes no sense, a child is, according to you, being harmed by her mother, her father has turned his back on her, and all you, TP, can do is talk about the financial sacrifices you and he have made; it''s not about where you two live and what you two have had to give up, it''s about getting her in the best situation possible -- and that doesn''t mean private school and arranging for here to set the table at some friend of yours home -- because it''s the right thing to do. It seems from your posts that the best place for her wouldn''t be with the two of you either. Ugh, this poor little girl.

 

[TravelingGal]

Kimberly, I just think the point was that while people with kids can know it's wrong and understand the dire nature of the situation, it doesn't touch the same cord as people with children (assuming they are normal!)because that maternal cord doesn't exist in people without kids...no matter how caring you are.

Before I had Amelia, I would be horrified at stores in the news about kids. Now I can't read them at all for the most part. My heart fills with sorrow and I cry, every single time. There was a recently story of the mermaid girl dying and before I had Amelia, I would have just stared at the picture of her legs, thinking, that is so sad. Now I looked at it and cried because all I could see was her face...a faced loved by a mother.

It IS different. I can't explain how much it is different, but it is. You'll find out soon enough...I just realized you were pregnant the other day so will put my congrats on another, more happy thread. But you are in for an amazing ride, I can promise you that!

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 10/28/2009 1:09:24 PM
Author: TravelingGal
You are seeing jacked up shrinks.


What kind of shrink would say there is NOTHING you can do to help? And the other one who made the same assessment without even ever meeting the girl? This makes no sense to me. Your story is either a lie or you really really need to see better people for this.

None that I have ever heard of that''s for sure. Something doesn''t add up here.

You''ve said that he spends all his money fixing up planes and won''t buy you a ring-but now you are spending every penny in support for this girl? And his planes haven''t run in years? And you say that you''d do anything for her and have no money to fight this but you are here making threads about purchasing a fancy ring? Makes NO sense.

 

[KimberlyH]

Date: 10/28/2009 1:25:56 PM
Author: TravelingGal
Kimberly, I just think the point was that while people with kids can know it''s wrong and understand the dire nature of the situation, it doesn''t touch the same cord as people with children (assuming they are normal!)because that maternal core doesn''t exist in people without kids...no matter how caring you are.

Before I had Amelia, I would be horrified at stores in the news about kids. Now I can''t read them at all for the most part. My heart fills with sorrow and I cry, every single time. There was a recently story of the mermaid girl dying and before I had Amelia, I would have just stared at the picture of her legs, thinking, that is so sad. Now I looked at it and cried because all I could see was her face...a faced loved by a mother.

It IS different. I can''t explain how much it is different, but it is. You''ll find out soon enough...I just realized you were pregnant the other day so will put my congrats on another, more happy thread. But you are in for an amazing ride, I can promise you that!

I totally understand your point, TG, knowing something is going to be special and amazing and actually feeling it are two different things, but in a case like this saying you can''t understand because you''re not a parent excuses the person from culpability. It''s like saying you don''t know hitting a woman is wrong because you''ve never been hit, or you''re not female. My baby hasn''t been born yet, but I can garuantee you that I know what I would do were I the OP, and it would be the same thing now that I''m pregnant than it would have been two years ago before having kids was even a possibility and it will be the same thing in 5 years when this kid is out and about in the world.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 10/28/2009 1:36:29 PM
Author: KimberlyH

Date: 10/28/2009 1:25:56 PM
Author: TravelingGal
Kimberly, I just think the point was that while people with kids can know it''s wrong and understand the dire nature of the situation, it doesn''t touch the same cord as people with children (assuming they are normal!)because that maternal core doesn''t exist in people without kids...no matter how caring you are.

Before I had Amelia, I would be horrified at stores in the news about kids. Now I can''t read them at all for the most part. My heart fills with sorrow and I cry, every single time. There was a recently story of the mermaid girl dying and before I had Amelia, I would have just stared at the picture of her legs, thinking, that is so sad. Now I looked at it and cried because all I could see was her face...a faced loved by a mother.

It IS different. I can''t explain how much it is different, but it is. You''ll find out soon enough...I just realized you were pregnant the other day so will put my congrats on another, more happy thread. But you are in for an amazing ride, I can promise you that!

I totally understand your point, TG, knowing something is going to be special and amazing and actually feeling it are two different things, but in a case like this saying you can''t understand because you''re not a parent excuses the person from culpability. It''s like saying you don''t know hitting a woman is wrong because you''ve never been hit, or you''re not female. My baby hasn''t been born yet, but I can garuantee you that I know what I would do were I the OP, and it would be the same thing now that I''m pregnant than it would have been two years ago before having kids was even a possibility and it will be the same thing in 5 years when this kid is out and about in the world.

Agreed Kimberly. I think what Tacori was saying is that when and if TP has a child, she would understand the depth of why people are so enraged on this thread.

 

[fieryred33143]

Sorry Kim! Didn''t mean to imply that you can''t understand if you aren''t a parent.

I just think that in TP''s situation, what''s missing is the fact that she isn''t a parent. If she were, she would not be able to look into her own child''s face every night and still say that there isn''t more that can be done.


And to TP, I didn''t want to comment on your relationship with him because my relationship isn''t perfect and didn''t want to sound like a hypocrite. But you have a golden opportunity to remove yourself from this situation all together. You are 24 and are setting yourself up for a lifetime with a person that cares about one person only: himself. If he doesn''t have enough love in him to stop at nothing for his own children, then there is very little room in there for you. Do yourself the favor and really think this through.

 

[KimberlyH]

Fiery, don''t apologize to me, you did nothing wrong. I didn''t intend to hijack this thread and I understand where you, TGal, and Tacori are coming from, I just needed to put it out there that her not being a mom doesn''t mean she can''t comprehend that this situation is so very wrong and that she chooses to play a role in it by standing by her man and excusing his bad behavior.

 

[princesss]

Date: 10/28/2009 1:47:07 PM
Author: KimberlyH
Fiery, don''t apologize to me, you did nothing wrong. I didn''t intend to hijack this thread and I understand where you, TGal, and Tacori are coming from, I just needed to put it out there that her not being a mom doesn''t mean she can''t comprehend that this situation is so very wrong and that she chooses to play a role in it by standing by her man and excusing his bad behavior.

Yup.

 

[swimmer]

Psychologists do not say "there is no hope, walk away" from a child. Ever. Too patient, you might have wanted to hear that, but it was not said by a licensed professional. No way. No how. And if it actually was, report him or her immediately to your state''s licensing board and make sure that you set up an appointment with a new therapist immediately for your boyfriend''s child.

How exactly is paying for a private school the same thing as providing the unconditional love and support that a child requires for healthy development? You HINTED to the school therapist that there MIGHT be abuse? Any rational adult can think of thousands more things that a caring person can do to help a child in an abusive situation. Today. Your ability to check in with folks who encounter the child is such a cop out that it makes my skin crawl with revulsion. You are showing too much patience with your boyfriend, but not enough towards a child.

Like many others reading your horror story posts, I am wondering if Bruce is emotionally abusing you as well. Withholding affection and a commitment after 5 years? As I am sure you know, the majority of Orthodox men get engaged within three months of beginning a relationship. My apologies for my confusion earlier about your relationship status, but be thrilled that he is NOT your fiance and deliriously happy that you are not legally connected to this man through marriage. This is not a man that can make a commitment to anyone but his own interests. Keep on living your delusion if you want, but hopefully you can read the words of the more articulate and compassionate ladies on here who are advising you so well to OPEN YOUR EYES to his self centered and heartless ways. Or of course you can stay with him and perpetuate this cycle of abuse and neglect. Denial ain''t just a river in Egypt as they say, but you are choosing your own state of bondage; the children your partner has chosen to abandon did not choose their neglect/abuse status, he forced it on them.

 

[packrat]

I just want to say that if I had to give up everything I own and live w/my parents to protect my kids, I would do it. I would go to the ends of the Earth for my kids, and regardless of how hard it would be or how much debt I racked up, they will always come first. I don''t understand B, Too Patient. Yes, so he''s got a couple crazy ex''s..but his kids...argh..I just could never turn my back on them-ESPECIALLY if I thought someone was abusing them. People who abuse kids have no reason to be on the face of this earth, and to knowingly allow a child to be with someone who does that...regardless of how much time or energy or money it would take, that child needs to be taken from the situation. She can''t do it herself. She NEEDS adult intervention. Don''t let her be another child that is failed by adults. Adults are supposed to protect children, not leave them to suffer.

Oooo I better shut up. I go a little nusto about kids.

 

[MonkeyPie]

Date: 10/28/2009 1:28:27 PM
Author: neatfreak

Date: 10/28/2009 1:09:24 PM

Author: TravelingGal

You are seeing jacked up shrinks.

What kind of shrink would say there is NOTHING you can do to help? And the other one who made the same assessment without even ever meeting the girl? This makes no sense to me. Your story is either a lie or you really really need to see better people for this.

None that I have ever heard of that''s for sure. Something doesn''t add up here.

You''ve said that he spends all his money fixing up planes and won''t buy you a ring-but now you are spending every penny in support for this girl? And his planes haven''t run in years? And you say that you''d do anything for her and have no money to fight this but you are here making threads about purchasing a fancy ring? Makes NO sense.

Ditto this...I felt sad for you before, but now I just have to wonder how much of this is made up, or if you really are just completely blind to how your life truly is. B is not a replacement for your father, nor is he even capable of being a boyfriend/husband. All he is capable of is doing what he wants, when he wants - and there are two things clear in this situation. He will never want to get married, and he will never be the father he should be.

I really hope you just walk away. This is ridiculous.

 

[Aloros]

I don''t understand. B''s eldest daughter is married now and doing well, no longer contacting B''s toxic ex. Why isn''t B getting in contact with her?

He''ll probably be a grandpa someday...what about his grandkids?? Will he not see them either?

 

[princesss]

Date: 10/28/2009 2:35:07 PM
Author: Aloros
I don''t understand. B''s eldest daughter is married now and doing well, no longer contacting B''s toxic ex. Why isn''t B getting in contact with her?

He''ll probably be a grandpa someday...what about his grandkids?? Will he not see them either?

No idea. I thought that (based on TP''s previous post) they''d been estranged since the girl was 15 (10 years) and that it''s too painful for him to break the silence now. But it seems that if she''s no longer talking to the ex, it''s time to start speaking. But I guess now it didn''t happen until she was 17 or 18?

I''m officially lost.

 

[swingirl]

Date: 10/28/2009 2:35:07 PM
Author: Aloros
I don't understand. B's eldest daughter is married now and doing well, no longer contacting B's toxic ex. Why isn't B getting in contact with her?

He'll probably be a grandpa someday...what about his grandkids?? Will he not see them either?

None of us understand. The story of an 18 year old girl –– who gets involved with a 50ish year-old twice-divorced man (both ex wives being wackos) who thinks BF is a saint struggling to pay the bills, the unfair courts, bad psychologists and expensive private school –– IS difficult to follow.

 

[TooPatient]

People keep saying we should do something to help her. I would love to. I''m also sure that B would do it to. (I think he really does want to see her but doesn''t know how to get her out of there)

What would any of you do?
I''d really like to know if I''ve missed anything that can be done. If there is anything that can be done I''d love to know about it.


Sell off everything we have & move in with my family? That would pay about one month of just attorney fees. (and leave a situation where the court wouldn''t be able to give him custody -- have to have a place to live, including a bedroom for her)

Quit paying for her schooling and give it to people to fight this in court? Okay, so she loses all of her friends & gets stuck in a new school with people who don''t know her situation. Okay, that is about 1/4 the price of ONE day at court.

Just take her? So she can spend the next 10 years moving from place to place using a different name, not having any friends for fear of being found?

Report the mother for abuse? Tried that. She knows what to say and not say. She knows what bruises and doesn''t. (registered nurse with a masters degree in social work) -- That just accomplished putting the little girl through a miserably stressful situation.

Just suck it up and take whatever visitation we can win? Been there. Lived through that.
The little girl was miserable. She had different rules in each house (had to bathe, wear clean clothes, brush her hair - or let me do it, eat dinner - often something she helped decide on and helped cook, and (gasp) not say bad things about her mother -- Reverse that for her mother''s house), didn''t know which house she was going to be in on any given day (we did try a calendar for her to carry so she knew, but things often changed last minute -- not our doing, what were we going to say "you were supposed to pick her up, if you can''t then she can just sit at an empty school"?), etc.

Call her and go to her plays and stuff? Tried that. Her mother wouldn''t give her the phone. If we showed up at an event and her mother was there, she''d scream at us. (already has) How would that help the girl?


What is left?
What can we do for her?

I honestly want to know because I can''t think of anything else.

 

[FrekeChild]

Ditto every single word of Swimmer''s last post.

There are so many red flags in this situation that my head is spinning.

First of all, there are worse situations out there. I have seen them in working in a divorce office. I have seen (and this isn''t going to make all of you parents out there happy) parents where both of the mother and the father paid huge amounts of money to fight to NOT have custody of the child. I''ve seen children kidnapped by one parent, I''ve seen thousands of dollars spent to keep a child and then have that parent abandon them later, abuse, neglect, etc etc etc.

My own father''s history, where his three sons were taken away from him, taken to another state, and he wasn''t allowed to see them. She told everyone that her new husband was their father (her new hubby was 12 years older than the oldest bro btw). She denied that my father existed. She forced my oldest brother (now deceased) to stand up in front of the courts and tell them that he wanted nothing further to do with his father. The court granted full custody to the mother, with alimony and child support being paid to her--more money than my dad was making at the time. He worked 3 jobs so he could save up money to fly out there and visit them, under their mother''s watch, and talk to them for maybe 15 minutes. And he''d do this repeatedly. For those precious 15 minutes that eh got to spend with his sons. Sometimes he''d fly out there and she wouldn''t let them see him. A lawyer, working at JC Penneys selling shoes on the side so he could pay his child support and go visit his 3 boys. It was never beneath him. He would have done anything in his power to see them, and he did whatever he could. When the oldest turned 18, he moved back here to New Mexico to be with his father, and hardly talked to his mother until he died of brain cancer at 23. And guess what? My other two brothers, who are mid-late 40s now have anger management issues and depression, not to mention their own relationship problems due to this saga. And my dad wanted to help anyone he could, so they wouldn''t have to go through the same situation he did--so he became a divorce attorney. And he has spent his life doing what he could to prevent something like this from happening to other people.

This is how a normal parent (and a vast majority of these ladies here) acts.

What is striking me TP, is that for you this all boils down to money. I have heard nothing but talk of money in this thread and others. "I don''t have a better job so we can''t afford things..." "B has planes, he can''t sell them for enough money to do anything with." (BTW, $20,000 pays for almost 17 months of her monthly babysitting fees) "B loves his projection TV" "Bruce bought $2,000 worth of electronic equipment this weekend" "Bruce is willing to buy me a ring--should I do the $1,700 one or the $3,700 one?"

What about downsizing your house? What about selling those planes? What about BOTH of you getting a second job? You know, there are so many things you can do that you aren''t doing if you both truly wanted to see or be in this child''s life.

In every post I''ve read here, it''s about you & B. It''s not about the little girl. It''s about how her babysitting expenses are too much, and unreasonable, and you guys can''t afford it. Yet the woodworking, the planes, the electronics, the big dinner parties...You yourself have complained on other threads about how much money he spends on his stuff (see above for the usual suspects) and how he won''t buy you a ring because it''s too expensive.

And this is slightly off-topic, but since others have hit on it, lets break this down a little bit.
You: 24, with from what I''ve read elsewhere, an estranged father of 5 years (which strangely is along the same time frame as your relationship with B), converting to Orthodox Judaism for B
Him: 53, with a fungal infection thats now spreading to you, twice divorced, two estranged daughters, two crazy ex wives

You take care of 99% of B''s life, including his tax guys, the cooking, the cleaning, and who knows what else. He''s living in a house that you''re helping to pay for, that your name is not on, and he can''t operate without you.

These are not the signs of a normal healthy relationship, and I can''t see how this relationship is fulfilling for you.

From what I can tell, the most constant thing in B''s life--his 18 year old cat.

You are a young intelligent woman. You have your whole life ahead of you. A super bright future, and honestly, from what I''ve seen, I think you''re missing out on life.

Back to the little girl, and to a comment said elsewhere...TGal hit it on the head: He''s the common denominator.

Oh, and speaking as a Psych undergrad--those two shrinks you''ve gone to?

No psychology professional worth their salt would say they''d give up on a person--especially after not meeting the person in question.

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 10/28/2009 3:12:08 PM
Author: TooPatient
People keep saying we should do something to help her. I would love to. I'm also sure that B would do it to. (I think he really does want to see her but doesn't know how to get her out of there)

What would any of you do?
I'd really like to know if I've missed anything that can be done. If there is anything that can be done I'd love to know about it.

Sell off everything we have & move in with my family? That would pay about one month of just attorney fees. (and leave a situation where the court wouldn't be able to give him custody -- have to have a place to live, including a bedroom for her)

Quit paying for her schooling and give it to people to fight this in court? Okay, so she loses all of her friends & gets stuck in a new school with people who don't know her situation. Okay, that is about 1/4 the price of ONE day at court.

Just take her? So she can spend the next 10 years moving from place to place using a different name, not having any friends for fear of being found?

Report the mother for abuse? Tried that. She knows what to say and not say. She knows what bruises and doesn't. (registered nurse with a masters degree in social work) -- That just accomplished putting the little girl through a miserably stressful situation.

Just suck it up and take whatever visitation we can win? Been there. Lived through that.
The little girl was miserable. She had different rules in each house (had to bathe, wear clean clothes, brush her hair - or let me do it, eat dinner - often something she helped decide on and helped cook, and (gasp) not say bad things about her mother -- Reverse that for her mother's house), didn't know which house she was going to be in on any given day (we did try a calendar for her to carry so she knew, but things often changed last minute -- not our doing, what were we going to say 'you were supposed to pick her up, if you can't then she can just sit at an empty school'?), etc.

Call her and go to her plays and stuff? Tried that. Her mother wouldn't give her the phone. If we showed up at an event and her mother was there, she'd scream at us. (already has) How would that help the girl?

What is left?
What can we do for her?

I honestly want to know because I can't think of anything else.

Um. B makes $150k according to your other posts. You make, I'm assuming here, around $15k a year. There is PLENTY that you can do. See my previous post for how much money is being blown on other things that could be going to attorney fees, psychologist (A NEW ONE) fees. Both of your could get second jobs-even at freaking Taco Bell or Wal-mart. NO PRICE IS TOO MUCH FOR A CHILD.

And that's coming from a person who DOESN'T know that she wants to be a parent.

The problem here is that neither of you are making this child a priority. As I said before, I've been there. I've seen this and worse, and I've seen parents that care. What I'm seeing now? A man who cares more about his speakers, his planes and whatever else than he does his daughter and her sanity.

 

[Lauren8211]

The best situation for any child is to be in a home with a parent or parents who put her safety first. End of story.

She can make new friends. She can go to public school. These things won''t kill her. These are excuses.

I''m sorry, but two different sets of rules at two different homes is not the huge predicament you''re making it out to be. Children of divorce do it all the time, and we come out just fine if we have the support of parents who truly love us.

So WHAT if her mother yells at you if you show up for school functions? The fact that you wont stand up to her shows how little B cares for his daughter. You think kids don''t see how parents really are? They understand a lot more than you think, and that little girl will figure it out.

It just sounds like he''s rolling over and dying. If you want something bad enough, you can make it happen. Clearly it''s not a priority for B. He simply doesn''t care enough. That''s his flesh and blood. I''m not sure how well his lack of commitment is going to play out for you.

 

[fieryred33143]

Date: 10/28/2009 3:27:19 PM
Author: elledizzy5
The best situation for any child is to be in a home with a parent or parents who put her safety first. End of story.

She can make new friends. She can go to public school. These things won''t kill her. These are excuses.

I''m sorry, but two different sets of rules at two different homes is not the huge predicament you''re making it out to be. Children of divorce do it all the time, and we come out just fine if we have the support of parents who truly love us.

So WHAT if her mother yells at you if you show up for school functions? The fact that you wont stand up to her shows how little B cares for his daughter. You think kids don''t see how parents really are? They understand a lot more than you think, and that little girl will figure it out.

It just sounds like he''s rolling over and dying. If you want something bad enough, you can make it happen. Clearly it''s not a priority for B. He simply doesn''t care enough. That''s his flesh and blood. I''m not sure how well his lack of commitment is going to play out for you.

This exactly. I was trying to figure out how to word it so I''ll just ditto this entire post especially the highlighted parts.