question for parents

[TooPatient]

Long story. I''ll save you all the details.

How many hours a week do you use a babysitter? This specific kid is 10 years old and in 4th grade. School starts at 8 and gets out at 3:30.

 

[asscherisme]

Zero.

 

[vespergirl]

None for daily child care, but we try to get a babysitter for a date night every couple of weeks. Occasionally I''ll get a sitter for my son for a couple of hours if I have a doctor''s appointment that it''s not appropriate for him to attend (dentist, gyn).

 

[TooPatient]

That is what I would expect. Just wanted to make sure I wasn''t mistaken.


So $1,000+ per month for a babysitter for a kid in school full time is NOT the normal thing.

(she is in summer camps from the time school gets out and they have pre & aftercare from 6am until about 7pm)

 

[sctsbride09]

Too Patient- my Mom used to have to pay her Ex-husband child support (dont get me started) and when he was 4 and under (full day care) she had to pay an additional 1000 per month, when he turned 5 and was in school full time, child care cost was lowered to 200 per month additional. This was in the mid 90'' btw, hope that helps.

 

[TooPatient]

Date: 10/26/2009 1:37:08 PM
Author: sctsbride09
Too Patient- my Mom used to have to pay her Ex-husband child support (dont get me started) and when he was 4 and under (full day care) she had to pay an additional 1000 per month, when he turned 5 and was in school full time, child care cost was lowered to 200 per month additional. This was in the mid 90'' btw, hope that helps.

sctsbride --

Thanks for sharing. Any info helps right now.


She had been trying to claim that she paid $2,000/month on a nanny.
Now she''s down to only claiming $1300/month. (of which, we pay 60% + regular child support + 100% of private school tuition)


Just had this issue taken to court December last year. Long story short, the court gave her everything she wanted and then some.

 

[sctsbride09]

Wow. Thats absolutely incredible. I mean, Im all for child support and all, but ONLY if its for the child. Not indulgences for the parent getting support, which is what it sounds like in your case. (was in my moms too) Sorry that you are going thru this, I remember it was hell growing up dealing with court nonsense every year or so.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

A ten year old should not need $1,300 of babysitting a month. However I guess if the court approved it not sure what you can do. Does he pay alimony? Most lawyers push higher child support since it is tax free to the parent receiving it. Alimony is taxed to the spouse who is receiving it. Maybe it would save you money to readjust the amounts in your favor.

 

[vespergirl]

I guess it depends on the area, and whether it''s used as daily child care. A decent nanny in our area (meaning speaks English, and CPR certified) costs between $15 - 20 per hour depending on how many kids. We''re in the DC area. I didn''t do the math for the particular person that you''re talking about, but I know that getting a non-illegal nanny in DC or NY is very pricey.

 

[TooPatient]

Date: 10/26/2009 2:58:44 PM
Author: Tacori E-ring
A ten year old should not need $1,300 of babysitting a month. However I guess if the court approved it not sure what you can do. Does he pay alimony? Most lawyers push higher child support since it is tax free to the parent receiving it. Alimony is taxed to the spouse who is receiving it. Maybe it would save you money to readjust the amounts in your favor.

No alimony. She makes more than B does, owns 2 houses, and has a sizable trust fund.

Our attorney says the only thing we can do is re-evaluate the whole thing. He says this would easily cost $10,000+ and likely take 6 months or more.


When it was just the tuition and child support, it made more sense to just pay it and not bother with it.

Now I''m not so sure. This is expensive:
$1600/month tuition
$300/month child support
health insurance costs
+ whatever childcare she feels like


B wants to just wait it out. We have a payment plan in place with Child Support Services so she only gets $300/month for childcare no matter what she does. It does build up in an account that has to be paid though...


I think he is right for now. We just did court last year. Didn''t get us anything (other than a bill from the attorney).
In another couple of years, she''ll have a much harder time arguing for a nanny. (I''d love to see her try to justify 4+ hours per day with a nanny when the kid is 12 years old and lives 1/4 mile from the school and is surrounded by friends and SAHMS)

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Date: 10/26/2009 1:01:46 PM
Author: TooPatient
That is what I would expect. Just wanted to make sure I wasn''t mistaken.


So $1,000+ per month for a babysitter for a kid in school full time is NOT the normal thing.

(she is in summer camps from the time school gets out and they have pre & aftercare from 6am until about 7pm)

$1,000 is a lot. When I called around it was about $1,100 for two kids.

 

[fleur-de-lis]

If the both parents (or a single mother was to) work out of the home, needs a sitter with a valid driver''s license to be present between 3 and 7PM each day, 22 days a month, and is committed to following the labor laws, child care services could easily hit that figure per month as a matter of simple math.

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 10/26/2009 10:34:18 PM
Author: fleur-de-lis
If the both parents (or a single mother was to) work out of the home, needs a sitter with a valid driver''s license to be present between 3 and 7PM each day, 22 days a month, and is committed to following the labor laws, child care services could easily hit that figure per month as a matter of simple math.

That''s what I was thinking too. If the sitter is there everyday after school for even a few hours it could hit that much pretty quickly in expensive areas.

 

[swingirl]

Have you asked the 10 year old how often the nanny is with him? Before school. After school. School holidays and short days.

Doesn''t she need to supply anyone with the invoices? Or nanny pay check stubs to prove the expensive?

 

[Kaleigh]

Date: 10/27/2009 12:26:07 AM
Author: swingirl
Have you asked the 10 year old how often the nanny is with him? Before school. After school. School holidays and short days.

Doesn''t she need to supply anyone with the invoices? Or nanny pay check stubs to prove the expensive?

I get where you are coming from swingirl, but asking the kid for details is putting him on the spot?? I dunno... Makes me feel bad for the kid.

To me that''s a lot of $$$$ for a kid who is in school full time.

 

[KimberlyH]

If she makes more than your boyfriend does that means she works, and 4+ hours of child care a day wouldn''t be a stretch. Choosing a nanny over a daycare program is going to cost more, especially if the nanny is qualified. And just because they are in a neighborhood with SAHM''s doesn''t mean they are available to care for their daughter.

In other words, what fluer and neat said.

 

[swingirl]

Date: 10/27/2009 12:36:08 AM
Author: Kaleigh

Date: 10/27/2009 12:26:07 AM

Author: swingirl

Have you asked the 10 year old how often the nanny is with him? Before school. After school. School holidays and short days.

Doesn''t she need to supply anyone with the invoices? Or nanny pay check stubs to prove the expensive?

I get where you are coming from swingirl, but asking the kid for details is putting him on the spot?? I dunno... Makes me feel bad for the kid.

To me that''s a lot of $$$$ for a kid who is in school full time.

There are ways to ask questions. I volunteered as a child advocate working with foster kids and most kids will tell you everything going on in their lives if you just let them talk about themselves. If the 10 year old has a babysitter for 4 hours a day they are spending a lot of time together and the babysitter must be there for homework, meals, transportation, playdates, etc. Lots to talk about.

 

[TooPatient]

Date: 10/27/2009 12:36:08 AM
Author: Kaleigh

Date: 10/27/2009 12:26:07 AM
Author: swingirl
Have you asked the 10 year old how often the nanny is with him? Before school. After school. School holidays and short days.

Doesn''t she need to supply anyone with the invoices? Or nanny pay check stubs to prove the expensive?

I get where you are coming from swingirl, but asking the kid for details is putting him on the spot?? I dunno... Makes me feel bad for the kid.

To me that''s a lot of $$$$ for a kid who is in school full time.

We don''t have any contact with the kid.

I wouldn''t raise an eyebrow at the number if I hadn''t been through the records. The mother is done with work by 5. The building is LOCKED (and empty) by 6. She does go out to dinner and dancing classes in the evening. (we have her bank records since they were needed for the last court stuff)

She found someone who is willing to accept her word so no receipts are needed anymore. When they were, the nanny was paid in CASH.

The week of spring break I expected to have higher bills (no school). She did submit receipts for 51 hours that week.
But she was in DISNEYLAND. She and the kid went to Disneyland for just short of 2 weeks. Got lots of bank records (including tickets & hotel).
Keep in mind, we only pay 60% of childcare required for WORK. Since she does not travel for work (she works in a call center), this was NOT required.


I''ve got so many other examples of fraudulent charges. Including gifts for the nanny, book orders (on a child care receipt???), bonus for the nanny, meal expenses for the nanny (have to pay for a meal if she is there for more than 2 hours???), etc....


Supposedly the nanny is very experience, kind, caring, liked by the kid.
$9.00/hour. (great price)

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 10/26/2009 9:17:27 AM
Author:TooPatient
Long story. I''ll save you all the details.

How many hours a week do you use a babysitter? This specific kid is 10 years old and in 4th grade. School starts at 8 and gets out at 3:30.

My son is younger, but at that age we will need childcare for about an hour afterschool until we can get home from work.

Unless my husband works from home still then, in which case our son can just come home and say hi to dad and then occupy himself for an hour. So no childcare needed

We might also want a date night every couple weeks, so we would have a sitter then for a few hours I guess.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Just finished the thread. Where I live you could get afterschool care every day in an out of house setting for about $700 per month, but I think it would be more if you needed it until 7pm and in your own home. And summer camps are necessary when you work full time. So I think $1300 is probably fair.

As a child of divorce I am just going to throw it out there that your partner has the right idea to just pay what the court says and wait it out. To make a fuss will only hurt the child. Only about 25% of fathers actually pay their court ordered child support, and when your partner's son is a teenager and has a better idea what is going on, he will be very happy to have a father who happily paid to help support him no matter how much money it cost. If your partner makes a fuss, then the son will not see it from a logical point of view, he will only know that his father doesn't want to support him the way the courts think he should

My father never paid his child support, and you know what? I have never introduced my father to my son. My friends whose fathers paid the support have much better relationships with their fathers. Yup, many men feel that paying support isn't fair, and that the amounts are too much, and maybe in some cases it is, but there is no price you can put on a relationship with your child. The mother is there each day doing the dirty work, so the parent living elsewhere can only really show his support and love of the child in his absence by following through on his financial responsibilities. ETA this is even more important if the father has no contact with the child and ever wants to have contact in the future. Make a fuss now and your partner will probably never ever know his son.

And while I am offering unsolicited advice

be careful about getting to personally involved in this issue. As the step parent it is too easy for you to be cast as the villian, and you don't want that. Happened to my mom when she got involved with my father, who had kids from a previous marriage. Unless it is putting you into significant hardship financially, then it is better to just grin and bear it.

 

[mia1181]

I don''t know what area the child lives in, however when I nannied, I actually made more than twice what this nanny is being paid, so depending on the area, this could be a fair price. I also think at 10 years old I would want someone supervising my son too (I know, times are different. I remember being 9 years old and babysitting 3 of my siblings and neighbor kids as well). Also, single mothers need breaks. It is very difficult to be the sole caregiver around the clock. My last employers got a divorce and my hours increased even though both children were also in school more.

 

[TooPatient]

This is a very BIG financial hardship. If we didn''t have the payment plan with the support people, we would have lost the house. It came VERY close as it is.

We are paying 100% of her private school tuition and health insurance costs. Plus child support.
Also, 60% of additional medical care, clothing, summer camps, winter camps, dance classes, bat mitzvah party, trip to Israel, and college (through age 21) including room & board.


The daughter absolutely loved me. We baked cakes, did art, homework, cooking dinner, etc.
Bought cards & presents for her mother.

She DID NOT like her father. And told me so. Because her mother said ____. All of the stuff she was told was absolutely untrue but what can you do?

We used to pick her up from school at 3:30 or 4:30 (depending on any activities she had), have fresh baked healthy goodies for a snack, do homework, cook dinner, eat dinner, bath, etc. EVERY day. Mon/Wed/Fri back to mother at 7 or 8 (depending on what the mother wanted). Overnight with us in her own room Tues. & Thurs. (plus additional as the mother wanted). Weekends with her mother (except when her mother wanted). Most of the winter with us full time Mon - Fri. She got a nice breakfast, homemade snacks & lunch, off to school or day camp.


B does NOT want a relationship with her EVER. (I doubt he''ll change his mind, but we''ll see what happens) It has been 2 years & 3 months since we had any contact with her.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

Wait a minute...he wants no relationship with his TEN year old? I am confused.

 

[sctsbride09]

No contact with his own kid or the mom? ETA- must of been typing at the same time Tacori.

 

[mia1181]

Date: 10/27/2009 2:20:09 PM
Author: TooPatient
This is a very BIG financial hardship. If we didn''t have the payment plan with the support people, we would have lost the house. It came VERY close as it is.

We are paying 100% of her private school tuition and health insurance costs. Plus child support.
Also, 60% of additional medical care, clothing, summer camps, winter camps, dance classes, bat mitzvah party, trip to Israel, and college (through age 21) including room & board.


The daughter absolutely loved me. We baked cakes, did art, homework, cooking dinner, etc.
Bought cards & presents for her mother.

She DID NOT like her father. And told me so. Because her mother said ____. All of the stuff she was told was absolutely untrue but what can you do?

We used to pick her up from school at 3:30 or 4:30 (depending on any activities she had), have fresh baked healthy goodies for a snack, do homework, cook dinner, eat dinner, bath, etc. EVERY day. Mon/Wed/Fri back to mother at 7 or 8 (depending on what the mother wanted). Overnight with us in her own room Tues. & Thurs. (plus additional as the mother wanted). Weekends with her mother (except when her mother wanted). Most of the winter with us full time Mon - Fri. She got a nice breakfast, homemade snacks & lunch, off to school or day camp.


B does NOT want a relationship with her EVER. (I doubt he''ll change his mind, but we''ll see what happens) It has been 2 years & 3 months since we had any contact with her.

See Green Highlighted - These expenses do not seem like things that would be required by a court for child support. Is your partner just being a pushover and willingly giving this woman money whenever she asks? I personally would want to continue fighting this in court or see if there is a mediation option that is available. I personally know two mothers who receive child support for their kids. They are both the kind of women who would try and get as much as they could and they are not receiving money for any of these extras. Especially if the father is having hardships. This seems strange.

Yellow Highlighted- This is so so very sad. Not judging the father, because I don''t know the whole situation but she is still only ten years old and probably very impressionable by the mother. She may end up wanting a relationship with him in the future....

 

[TooPatient]

Date: 10/27/2009 2:35:40 PM
Author: mia1181

Date: 10/27/2009 2:20:09 PM
Author: TooPatient
This is a very BIG financial hardship. If we didn''t have the payment plan with the support people, we would have lost the house. It came VERY close as it is.

We are paying 100% of her private school tuition and health insurance costs. Plus child support.
Also, 60% of additional medical care, clothing, summer camps, winter camps, dance classes, bat mitzvah party, trip to Israel, and college (through age 21) including room & board.


The daughter absolutely loved me. We baked cakes, did art, homework, cooking dinner, etc.
Bought cards & presents for her mother.

She DID NOT like her father. And told me so. Because her mother said ____. All of the stuff she was told was absolutely untrue but what can you do?

We used to pick her up from school at 3:30 or 4:30 (depending on any activities she had), have fresh baked healthy goodies for a snack, do homework, cook dinner, eat dinner, bath, etc. EVERY day. Mon/Wed/Fri back to mother at 7 or 8 (depending on what the mother wanted). Overnight with us in her own room Tues. & Thurs. (plus additional as the mother wanted). Weekends with her mother (except when her mother wanted). Most of the winter with us full time Mon - Fri. She got a nice breakfast, homemade snacks & lunch, off to school or day camp.


B does NOT want a relationship with her EVER. (I doubt he''ll change his mind, but we''ll see what happens) It has been 2 years & 3 months since we had any contact with her.

See Green Highlighted - These expenses do not seem like things that would be required by a court for child support. Is your partner just being a pushover and willingly giving this woman money whenever she asks? I personally would want to continue fighting this in court or see if there is a mediation option that is available. I personally know two mothers who receive child support for their kids. They are both the kind of women who would try and get as much as they could and they are not receiving money for any of these extras. Especially if the father is having hardships. This seems strange.

Yellow Highlighted- This is so so very sad. Not judging the father, because I don''t know the whole situation but she is still only ten years old and probably very impressionable by the mother. She may end up wanting a relationship with him in the future....

She had a good attorney. He had a bad one. (who has been fired and replaced with a good one)

This is what the court ordered. It is in the support documents. I reviewed them again the other day. If the mother wants to push for more, she can quite easily. The wording is so vague on some areas that it really gives her free access to his checkbook (and the court has backed this twice now).


The only option if we choose to argue this is to do a whole new plan. This would require mediation, attorney fees, court filing, mental evaluations, etc.
He says the process would take 6 months or more (very likely more) or court dates, mediation, and evaluations.
Easily $10,000 (he said in this case expect to go beyond that)


To explain why we don''t and won''t see her:

The mother has several mental illnesses (stated by several psychologists "off the record").
These have greatly affected the daughter.

An example of what the kid did on a regular basis:
She wanted to wear a dress to school. She and I had agreed that she would wear her fancy dress to school IF she could make it through the one day without having an accident. (yes, as a 7 year old she peed on herself and it was NOT a medical problem -- we had her to all the specialists). Well, she had not one but 3 accidents that day (the school sent her extra clothing home to be washed). Her father said that she could not wear the dress (since we had ALL agreed to the deal) the next day but she could try it again the next week.
So we got home and she "fell" on the stairs. (she very daintily sat down and then said "ow") We got inside and I checked to see if she had been hurt. There was just the faintest bit of pink. And she said that she would feel much better if she got to wear the dress to school the next day. Otherwise she''d tell her mom what happened. And we all know that I pushed her

Before that:
We had her seeing a psychologist 3 times a week. After many months of this, the psychologist told us (again, "off the record") that the BEST case would be that this girl grows up to be self centered, manipulative, and a massive PITA. The only way this "best case" could occur is if the mother died NOW and we got the kid help. Therapy every day. Very set routine. And more. I would have had to quit working and dedicate my life to helping her get past stuff.

The mother didn''t die (still hasn''t) and there is no way that the biased court we would have to deal with would give full custody to the father. Even if they would, we have limited income. We could never afford the attorneys and court expenses like the mother can. (she''s got a LARGE trust fund to work with in addition to her $150,000/year salary plus income from rental home)

We spent a year fighting CRIMINAL charges against B. They were fraudulent. The doctors (the she took the kid to), the police (that she called), and all of the "witnesses" said so. But it took a year to deal with. Cost $15,000 in attorney fees. B got served in his OFFICE. And there was a mark on his record for several years.

The mother threatened to file more against him. Even accused ME of abuse.
She went so far as to bring her attorney in to threaten the psychologist with charges of abuse and formal complaints with the medical board (whoever it is who has the power to take her license away).


Sorry this got so long. This has been a LONG and miserable thing. We don''t talk about it much anymore but earlier on people kept asking why we don''t see her. There are so many details and so much information.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

I know it is not my place but as a mother I need to say a few things to you. His daughter is the VICTIM. SHE is his CHILD. I understand that her mother has mental issues and for that I would think you should pity her not hate her but half of that little girl is B. He is allowing his daughter to be raised it what you claim is a toxic environment. I would give up everything for my child''s health and happiness. EVERYTHING. I feel sorry that you and your SO cannot see beyond the problems. I would bet money that one day B will be very regretful that he missed an opportunity (b/c yes, it is an opportunity) to help raise his child. It is HIS CHILD. How are you okay with him abandoning her b/c it is *easier* that way? Hey, life is unfair. Believe me, I know this first hand but that little girl needs a stable parent. She needs her dad. The fact that b/c she has accidents (showing signs of emotional issues that B is only HELPING perpetuate) or wants to wear a dress...that is enough for him to cut ties? That is frightening. I could never just walk away from my kid.

I consider this fair game BTW. You brought up this topic in a public forum. I am not even sure what advice you are asking for. Your professional lawyer told you it would cost you more the right the arrangement. So what is the point of this thread? My heart goes out to that little girl. I pray she can overcome all the issues she is bound to have from *both* parents.

 

[MonkeyPie]

Date: 10/27/2009 3:42:38 PM
Author: Tacori E-ring
I know it is not my place but as a mother I need to say a few things to you. His daughter is the VICTIM. SHE is his CHILD. I understand that her mother has mental issues and for that I would think you should pity her not hate her but half of that little girl is B. He is allowing his daughter to be raised it what you claim is a toxic environment. I would give up everything for my child''s health and happiness. EVERYTHING. I feel sorry that you and your SO cannot see beyond the problems. I would bet money that one day B will be very regretful that he missed an opportunity (b/c yes, it is an opportunity) to help raise his child. It is HIS CHILD. How are you okay with him abandoning her b/c it is *easier* that way? Hey, life is unfair. Believe me, I know this first hand but that little girl needs a stable parent. She needs her dad. The fact that b/c she has accidents (showing signs of emotional issues that B is only HELPING perpetuate) or wants to wear a dress...that is enough for him to cut ties? That is frightening. I could never just walk away from my kid.

I consider this fair game BTW. You brought up this topic in a public forum. I am not even sure what advice you are asking for. Your professional lawyer told you it would cost you more the right the arrangement. So what is the point of this thread? My heart goes out to that little girl. I pray she can overcome all the issues she is bound to have from *both* parents.

BIG ditto to this.I really hope there is a lot more that we just don''t know and your FI-to-be is not just ignoring the problem because it''s easier.

But if he quit messing with airplanes and woodworking stuff, he could easily afford to take care of his daughter properly.

 

[TooPatient]

Date: 10/27/2009 3:42:38 PM
Author: Tacori E-ring
I know it is not my place but as a mother I need to say a few things to you. His daughter is the VICTIM. SHE is his CHILD. I understand that her mother has mental issues and for that I would think you should pity her not hate her but half of that little girl is B. He is allowing his daughter to be raised it what you claim is a toxic environment. I would give up everything for my child''s health and happiness. EVERYTHING. I feel sorry that you and your SO cannot see beyond the problems. I would bet money that one day B will be very regretful that he missed an opportunity (b/c yes, it is an opportunity) to help raise his child. It is HIS CHILD. How are you okay with him abandoning her b/c it is *easier* that way? Hey, life is unfair. Believe me, I know this first hand but that little girl needs a stable parent. She needs her dad. The fact that b/c she has accidents (showing signs of emotional issues that B is only HELPING perpetuate) or wants to wear a dress...that is enough for him to cut ties? That is frightening. I could never just walk away from my kid.

I consider this fair game BTW. You brought up this topic in a public forum. I am not even sure what advice you are asking for. Your professional lawyer told you it would cost you more the right the arrangement. So what is the point of this thread? My heart goes out to that little girl. I pray she can overcome all the issues she is bound to have from *both* parents.

I brought it up. No problems discussing.

I was hoping to find out what people thought was a reasonable number of hours for childcare for a 10 year old.


This is a very sad situation. I got to be very close to her and miss her very much. I can''t even imagine what B is feeling.
He gave up a house (they had 2) to avoid going to court because he didn''t want to see his daughter get hurt. (either having to go into court, or just the stress she would be exposed to due to it) I passed up better jobs to allow me to give her the help she needed.

We went so far as to get the stuff needed to record video & voice to protect ourselves the next time the mother made accusations. (which she did)

I had a small insurance settlement. Every bit of it went to making a nice room full of nice stuff for this little girl.
Everything else we made went to rent and attorneys. All credit was maxed. Bills were behind.

We found a house with a nice yard in a neighborhood full of kids. A bedroom and bathroom just for her. All the nice stuff.

Then the mother made her accusations again (with her attorney involved). Even if we gave up the down payment and forgot about the house, we couldn''t afford to go to court. Attorneys don''t work for free (and those that do didn''t have the time). We had already cut all the expenses we could manage.

If we had stood up to her and her trust fund, we would not have had a place to live, a car that ran, etc.
And then what happens to the kid? We couldn''t do anything for her if we didn''t even have a place to live and food to feed her.

The psychologist said that it would just make it worse.


After many discussions and much pain, we decided that the best thing we could do for her was to not fight it. We could at least make sure that her private school tuition is paid so she has a good education and people around who care about her and can help her. (great school even if it is expensive). And we could get a house with plenty of room so if anything happened to her mother (the mother is only a couple of years younger than her mother was when she died with heart problems. She isn''t a very healthy person, so this is a possibility) she would have a house and a nice room waiting.


ETA: The mother has a master''s degree in social work (works for an insurance company) and knows just what to say to get accusations taken seriously. She also knows what to say to convince people that she is just a kind, caring, mother who is doing the best she can for her kid.
(and while I suspect she abuses the kid, there was very little evidence to support that and certainly nothing I could say that wouldn''t have made it harder for this little girl)

 

[FrekeChild]

A lot of somethings don''t sound right here.

I agree with Tacori 100%.