question for parents

[cara]

Lindsey, you are correct, my last post was a little snarky and that probably isn't a helpful tone.

TooPatient, you have been nothing but polite and yet your posts have inspired people to snarkiness, to sarcasm, to insult you and your boyfriend, to pray for you, to beg you to help this girl, to help yourself by leaving this relationship, to go to therapy.

Please think about why that is - here is my interpretation:

It is the internet equivalent of people trying to warn a woman of bombs going off around her and a minefield ahead, while she insists that there are no bombs and it's a lovely day for a walk and marches cheerily into the minefield. Its frustrating to have such an exchange, even if you are motivated to help the woman, and eventually you might curse her or insult her in desperation.

TooPatient, I wish you well but I sincerely hope that you can read this thread again and try to understand why people are writing what they are writing. You may know more specific details about your situation than others, but you lack a detached perspective. And clearly, every time you offer more details in an effort to explain things, people become more appalled at the situation and more concerned. Please, consider that that perspective can allow one to see things that you are too close to see. And, if nothing else, go to therapy yourself to understand why you are making the choices you are.

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 11/1/2009 12:05:36 PM
Author: hlmr

Date: 11/1/2009 7:42:16 AM
Author: swimmer
Too Patient,
That is wonderful that Bruce is now going to permit you to be seen together in public! That is a real step forward in your relationship. It is great that his fungus is clearing up, are you still infected? Hopefully you can now start to get treated for that nasty and painful skin condition as well. It is good that Bruce''s daughter only sees her mother for transportation reasons, a child in grade school should really should only expect about 10 mins or so of parental contact right? It is really a shame that none of it is positive. That is wonderful that Bruce''s daughter is being raised by friends. Nice that they can foot the bill too for all of her weekend activities. Mostly it is good that Bruce is being so helpful to you in getting you ready for school. Giving you academic advice, talking about your financial future, helping you with homework...this is really great! Finally he is acting like a father. To you.

This is the very crux of why you can''t see the reality of this situation. You are the ''third daughter'', the one he will ''do right'' by. You speak like a little girl finally receiving some approval, being so excited by his acceptance, in your most recent post (''he even invited me to an event at his work'').

You need to RUN away from this man!!!! He will treat you the same as he has his biological daughters, once you become too much ''work'' for him. Of couse, if you get a good job, do what you are told, don''t ask too much and make lots of money to help pay bills, he might decide to keep you around.

You need to get yourself some professional help ASAP!!! You will never be able to see that what he is doing is wrong, until you get yourself out of this very toxic relationship.

My heart goes out to all three of you girls. I hope some day you can look at this man and see him for who/what he is before it is too late.

Am afraid I agree ... have spent WAY too much time this afternoon reading your previous posts because this situation concerned me so much. I really think you''ve been brainwashed. He got you young (18? 19?) when you were breaking ties with your own father & he''s held a sort of power over you the entire time. You believe everything he tells you when from the outside we see that whole stories change in completely unbelievable ways. Yet you seem convinced. You are being powerfully manipulated and used. You mentioned the one special moment when he made tea for you when you were sick as proof of his care & love. A gem in your crown of romance. Yet in another post you write how he complained the entire time while doing it - and that it was only once in a few weeks of illness. ONCE! A cup of TEA! After the YEARS you''ve cared for him & his various (*cough*manipulativelymadeup*cough*) illnesses. But the way you interpret it is so heartbreaking. You''ve put a lot out here on PS. The heart tattoo on your chest that only he can see because you''re modest with your clothing. The way he wants to be sure only he can see certain "parts of you". (Though he''s been married how many times before & seen countless women nude). The whole situation is unsettling and uncomfortable to bear witness to even virtually. But it doesn''t have to define you. You are 24 and have the rest of your life ahead of you. I doubt you''ll ever see this clearly until you''re fully detached from his tentacles but I really hope something someone says can pierce that stifling shell of denial & inappropriate mind control he''s using to snuff out the person you were born to be. The one with free will and hope. You deserve better. You are strong enough to get away. You''ll be okay without him. Thanks for being sweet to me when my kitty died. I really wish you only the best.

 

[hlmr]

Too Patient (and you are much too patient!): I have been reading up on you a bit.....sorry to creep, but I wanted to learn more about you, and how you think. I read a few things you posted but this broke my heart for you, and I just want to tell you that you deserve so much better from a relationship than this man can ever give. Please don't throw away your youth on someone like this. He is a true blue selfish bastard. Please try to read your words through unbiased eyes:



I'm not a newly wed either. Been 5 1/2 years waiting to become one.



He used to be a sweat pants guy. Not any more. Why put fabric in the way?
We don't bother to wear anything. If I try it doesn't stay long anyway.




I own one pretty lacy thing. Bought it because he made a comment about wanting to see me in just a little red lace. So I bought something that was little and just red lace.
Fed him a nice dinner. Nice wine & dessert. Went in and changed into the little bit of lace.
Came out (only took me 10 minutes) and found that he had turned on some old western movie. He barely noticed me. I stood in front of him and asked what he thought. He said it was fine but he'd like to see the movie now. (It had been a few years since he saw it). We watched the movie. He brushed his teeth and got ready for bed. Climbed in, looked at me, and said "It looks like you want me to do something."

That ended that and it has never come out of the drawer since then.

Before spending the money on something pretty, make sure it is something he would even notice.



(and that you would think this is the moral of the story is so very sad

)

 

[february2003bride]

When your BF''s daughter is all grown and if she has children of her own, she''ll question why her own father was never in her life other than financially. That shapes a person and the relationships they have with others. And just to reiterate- NO psychiatrist is EVER going to say a person is a LOST CAUSE unless they are incompetant and don''t know how to treat a patient like your BF''s daughter. And for you to BELIEVE that shows that you have NO LOVE for this child. A teacher told me that my daughter was a lost cause because of her learning disability. I FOUGHT BACK, became my daughter''s advocate and now my daughter has overcome her learning disability. For you and your BF to write this child off except for to pay for things is disgusting.

As a mother NOTHING comes before the well being of my children. Not my home, not cars, not vacations, not jewelry, nothing. You are with a man who has written off TWO of his own daughters and refuses to down size his middle aged crisis lifestyle for his daugther. I have to ask- why are you with this man????

Thank God my DH also became my DD''s advocate and didn''t write her off because she was also labeled by an incompetant teacher as a "lost cause".

 

[Jas12]

Toopatient, i have no doubt you believe that you are doing everything you can do, and i have no doubt that you are holding onto a thin string of hope that B is a good man.
But honey, there are many bright, educated, level-headed, rational women that frequent this site and what are each of them telling you?! The same thing! Over and over ! Give your head a shake and really, truly think about this.....

a) if you are adamant about staying with him start doing EVERYTHING you can (sell the planes to help with bills, get out of private school, find new Dr''s etc. etc. --a clean start!). I agree with the others that say you must have to have your own child to understand how fierce your will to protect them will run. It is crazy. He is not doing all he can to ensure that. Don''t make excuses & don''t believe those psychologists. I briefly worked in a treatment center that served the most extreme examples of abused and disturbed kids in all of canada. The case histories of these kids would make your step-daughter look like a dream; I dealt with kids that were locked in dog cages for years, refugee children that were tortured and a teen that smeared feces all over his room on a daily basis to deal with his pain. None of these kids were able to function outside the isolated group home. But no one ever gave up on these kids, and in many cases, many, many were successfully adopted to new families are reintegrated into society. It is not too late, NEVER too late, for your step daughter!

b) If you do decide to leave him, put forth a sincere effort to pass on the best info to that girl''s teachers and dr''s but go knowing that truly, this is not your battle and you are doing yourself a favor (and future kids, if you want ''em) in the long run.

 

[Aloros]

If your bf is interested at all in getting his daughter back, he''ll watch this very closely:
http://www.fathersandfamilies.org/?p=5156

You said your bf could sell the planes for $20k. That''s not pocket change! And why not, if they don''t work anyways? If his daughter is really being abused and manipulated, and your bf is blameless in this matter, then the truth is on your side. There are so many things that can be done. You already have abuse allegations proven false. And it looks like you''d have a case for proving that his daughter was manipulated into making these claims. That''s a big blow to his ex''s credibility.

BUT, I just don''t feel like your bf is very invested. I think you want to believe that he is. I think it''s more comfortable to believe that he is.

I haven''t read your other threads, but from what others have posted here, it doesn''t sound like he treats you very well.

 

[Allisonfaye]

All I can say is this man has some serious, major baggage. (That must be why he needs two airplanes). At 24, you should be having fun and enjoying life. I just don''t know what else to even say.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 11/1/2009 12:03:29 AM
Author: TooPatient

Date: 10/30/2009 10:20:29 AM

B and I spent a lot of time talking about A the last few days. He is not worried that her mother is hurting her. Since she gets her up just in time for school and doesn''t see her again until the next day when it is time to go to school. She has a nanny she likes and good friends (more like family) that she spends weekends & holidays with.

B says that if he thought for one minute that she was spending time with her mother again and the same kind of things were happening, he would do anything necessary to get her out.

I don''t know how I stumbled on this thread and I hesitated before replying but I do have something to say...

First I want to say that your composure in this thread impressed me. I don''t believe you truly understand the parent/child relationship yet, but I do think you''ve got a reasonably intelligent head on your shoulders, however naive you may be due to your early adulthood experiences. That''s all I''m going to say about you or your SO. I have nothing good to say about him so I will just zip it.

The kids however... start with the older one. She is an adult, she is no longer in contact with her mother, there really is NO reason whatsoever not to try to have a relationship with her. If he doesn''t want one then he should stay away, but why doesn''t he want one? A relationship with an adult child is much like any other relationship in that it takes work. She may be an adult, but likely he will need to reach out to her - she may already feel rejected. Who knows what she feels, maybe she wants nothing to do with him. But if there is a chance that their relationship can grow, it would be a shame to continue excluding her from your lives just because you''ve gotten in the habit of doing so.

The younger daughter... what you wrote above really hit me (and was the straw that made me hit reply). You said that if he thought she was actually spending time with her mother that he would intervene. This child HAS NO PARENTS. Has no mommy or daddy. And to top it off - she doesn''t even know any better, what she gets, that''s all she knows. And if all she gets is negative BS from her mother, that''s how she''ll grow. You cannot control how that woman will treat her daughter (it could be argued you could fight it etc. but I''m trying to be realistic for right now without involving more money or court costs or headaches), but you CAN control how much effort you put into having a relationship with this child - however small it may be. If her father continues to put even a small amount of time that he devotes exclusively on her, she will remember it and be better off as an adult because of it - regardless of the courts and regardless of her mother. Right now she is being raised by friends and employees. She may be taken care of physically and intellectually, and even to some degree emotionally, but I''m quite certain that she needs parental *love* more than anything else right now. AND I think it''s a horrible shame that your SO won''t fight for the time to be with her even if he does nothing else.

 

[miraclesrule]

Wow!! Just Wow! I really should be cleaning the ridiculously messy house of mine, but got sucked in by this thread.

I ditto Tacori, Freke, Kaleigh, TGal and pretty much everyone else, but I have a few thoughts that probably will sound more harsh than I intend, but I'm indignant for you:

1. The talk of Nanny's seems ironic, because I believe that you are his Nanny, except you cost far less than he pays for his kids, so it's working out fine for him. (Especially since you contribute so much financially as part of "caring" for him and that frees up some extra cash for his true desires...like electronic and big tv's so he can watch his western movies)

2. The one most in need of psychological intervention at this time is you!

Honestly, you know that you are in this situation for a reason. You are choosing to stay in this situation. Perhaps you have serious and deep seated self-esteem issues and/or need to conquer the challenge of getting this man to give you a ring and love you in the way you want to be loved....I have no clue.

Personally, I think you need to make a change on your own, or you can wait around miserably until outside circumstances create that change for you. Take some control over your life and save yourself. This is beyond absurd.

 

[purrfectpear]

Everyone is soooo upset about the children being abused. I don''t see any abuse here? I read about two daughters from two different mothers being raised by those mothers and rejected by their loser of a dad. Sounds like the best solution to me? So far we only have TP''s "stories" about the monster mothers and frankly the story keeps being changed.

There''s only one monster in this story that stands out clearly and that''s Daddykins

As to TP''s lot in all this? Sometimes you choose the life you get. Since she was only 18 when she hooked up with this guy, I know I should be able to work up some sympathy, but somehow I just can''t. Her willingness to excuse Bruce for every one of life''s foibles is really pretty icky. I suspect that while those poor kids have more than their share of psychological issues to deal with, they are MUCH better off with their mother''s than they could ever be with Bruce. Just send the money Bruce. They don''t need to be exposed to your brand of weirdness.

 

[Lilac]

I didn't see this thread until now. I considered just not commenting (maybe it's better if I had stayed out of it entirely) but I do feel there is one thing I have to say.

My parents got divorced when I was 2 years old. It was a bitter and nasty divorce. For years, there were custody battles and child support arguments. My mom has her version of it, and my dad has his version. I lived with my mom and grew up mostly hearing her version of it. I saw my dad twice a month (usually every other Sunday). I was supposed to go to him every other weekend, but I chose not to because I didn't want to leave my mother. My father has recently told me that at the time of their divorce and custody battles, he was in court very often and it was *extremely* expensive. He was paying WAY more than he could afford in lawyer fees, child support, he was paying 70% of all my tuition, medical bills, and anything else I needed. It was costing him so much more than he could afford. His lawyers (and some of his family and most of his friends) told him to just leave and give up. Start a new family. It wasn't worth the trouble and the cost to keep this going when he would barely see me anyway and would hardly have any sort of relationship with me. But he couldn't do that - everyone said he was crazy, but he would not just leave his little girl. I was around 6 or 7 years old and he just could simply not walk away.

My father picked me up every other Sunday and I went with him to spend the day at his apartment. He lived in a very small, messy one bedroom apartment (mostly because he couldn't afford anything bigger because of all the child support and tuition he was sending to my mom). But I loved those Sundays. I spent 10 hours a day with him twice a month but I loved those times. He played games with me inside when it was winter and we played games like Tag or racing when it was warm outside. He bought me a dog (that lived with him) and we played with her together, ran around outside with her, went to the store to pick out toys for her when I saw him. We bonded over those 20 hours a month. On Hanukkah he couldn't see me every day because it was a weekday and wasn't his "turn" until Sunday. So what did he do? He came to my house right before Hanukkah and dropped off 8 presents - some big, some small - and each one was numbered 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. I was supposed to open one up every night of Hanukkah (based on the number written on it). He wanted me to open them in a certain order - one for each night. Then he called me to see if I liked the present, or he asked me when he saw me the following Sunday.

I was even just thinking about this the other day - those games we played and opening those presents from him are some of my most wonderful memories of my childhood. Most of the month I only had my mom (who I truly loved and was *very* close to) but those few times I had my dad with me too. I knew he loved me and thought about me and cared about me even though I only saw him 20 hours a month. The fact that he showed up each Sunday that was "his", the fact that he played those games with me, the fact that he cared enough to pick out presents and number them so I had a special gift from him each night of Hanukkah, the fact that he showed up to my school plays, gymnastics recitals, ballet recitals, school graduations even though he couldn't stand my mother, the fact that he CARED enough to come because it was important to me - those memories and those times showed how much he loved and cared about me. And now that I'm older (and married) we have a much closer relationship than he probably ever thought we would and that's because I know how much he loved me. He didn't abandon me or give up when things became too difficult or too expensive. He loved me too much to do that.

My father loved me too much to walk away, no matter how much money it cost him, no matter how much he had to sacrifice, and no matter how many lawyers, therapists, and friends told him he was better off leaving and not looking back. That's the kind of father who really cares about his daughter. Walking away doesn't show you care - staying and fighting for time with your daughter and forming a relationship in whatever time you have shows you care.

 

[miraclesrule]

I feel a need to apologize to Too Patient for my earlier post. Although it conveyed my strong parental and loss prevention mentality, I could have and should have, been more compassionate in my tone.

However, if I saw someone getting ready to walk out in front of a moving car, I would likely make a crazy spectacle out of myself in order to prevent them from being harmed.

I feel with every fiber of my being that you are stepping off a curb into a head and heart ache, you can listen to the crowd and jump out the way, or not.

 

[orbaya]

I agree with all the others that said the father should do anything for his daughter.

However, he doesn''t want to so he won''t. It''s as simple as that. You have said that he doesn''t want a relationship with either daughter, ever. So why would he sell his planes, stop buying expensive toys, etc? Because he doesn''t want to. He sees children as disposable and that fact won''t change, especially since he''s made his choice to not have relationships ever with his kids.

He hasn''t seen either daughter in years, which he has made perfectly clear by his choices that this is what he wants, and how he wants it to stay. I''m curious to know how he knows so many details about his 10 year old''s life if he hasn''t had contact in years with her?

I hope that you have no desire to have children with this man. He''s ditched two already and will do it again. And then play you up as the psycho girlfriend/wife to others, just like he has to the other two women. It''s his pattern and it won''t change.

You know what, I see the fact that he has not proposed to you as a favor to you. It will be a bit easier to untangle yourself from his actions and choices if you aren''t married.

 

[zoebartlett]

I just read through this now. I thought it was a post about babysitting and $, and I wondered how it had gotten to 5 pages. Oh boy.

TP -- I think you''ve gotten some great advice from everyone else, and there''s nothing that I can really add that hasn''t already been said several times. Like others, I''m not sure why you''re still with this person. He clearly doesn''t seem to add anything healthy/positive/loving to your relationship. Personally, I can''t fathom staying with someone like this. As someone said, you''re young. Is this what you want your life to continue to be like?

Again, I''ll just ditto the others regarding this child who is caught in an unbelievable mess. I hope the best for her, and I hope someone reaches out to help her in the way that is most beneficial to her.

 

[rockpaperscissors67]

I avoided commenting on this until now because it''s a very sensitive point in our household, but figured maybe what we''ve gone through would help people understand what the OP''s boyfriend *might* be dealing with.

SO has 3 kids (20, 15 and 13) from his previous marriage and he does not see them. It''s not that he doesn''t want to, it''s that he can''t for several reasons. We believe his ex has borderline personality disorder, and basically, she believes that the kids "belong" to her. Even before their divorce, she was working to turn the kids against SO. During the divorce, she ramped up the crazy. She involved the kids in every aspect of the legal stuff, even went so far as to have them all meet with her lawyer and testify in court.

The poor kids were caught in the middle, a place kids should NEVER be. I know that they were torn. If they showed any interest in spending time with SO, the ex would make life miserable for them. Sadly, this type of abuse isn''t easily shown because most people with BPD are very convincing.

The judge for their final hearing declined to order visitation for SO. We knew without court-ordered visitation, the kids would be lost to SO and sure enough, that''s what has happened. It has also extended to SO''s parents -- his ex refuses to allow the kids to have contact with their grandparents.

Sad as it is to say, there are financial considerations when you''re in a situation like this. Over 4 years, SO gave his ex about $300K in cash, and she got the house with $200K in equity. His legal bills were about $70K and he was forced to withdraw quite a bit of his 401K. He pretty much has nothing to his name anymore. We thought it was all over and we could get on with our lives, but we found out this week that his ex is filing an appeal of the divorce decree because she wants more money. It''s likely that the appeal will not be successful, but we''re looking at the potential for another year of legal bills. If the appeal IS successful, we''re in for at least another year of legal bills after that. Because of the difficulty with appeals, we know that SO is going to need another $50K at least.

I used to think that if one person was obviously using the kids like this, well, surely the courts would see it and work to change it, but it''s just not true. It''s frustrating and painful to find out that not everyone is really interested in the best interests of the kids. We can only hope that at some point, his kids will see what their mom has done and come around.

If I saw the situation from outside, I might think that SO was the scum of the earth because he "abandoned" his kids. Since I lived through it with him, I know he didn''t. I know that he would do anything for them. He''s an awesome father to our little boy and a terrific influence on my kids who adore him. From talking to his family, I know that he was a really good and involved father with his kids until his ex decided that he wasn''t necessary.

I don''t know if the OP''s guy dealt with the same thing with his ex, but thought I''d bring our situation up as an example of how someone can lose their kids through little fault of their own.

 

[Lilac]

Date: 12/8/2009 12:36:55 AM
Author: rockpaperscissors67
I avoided commenting on this until now because it''s a very sensitive point in our household, but figured maybe what we''ve gone through would help people understand what the OP''s boyfriend *might* be dealing with.

SO has 3 kids (20, 15 and 13) from his previous marriage and he does not see them. It''s not that he doesn''t want to, it''s that he can''t for several reasons. We believe his ex has borderline personality disorder, and basically, she believes that the kids ''belong'' to her. Even before their divorce, she was working to turn the kids against SO. During the divorce, she ramped up the crazy. She involved the kids in every aspect of the legal stuff, even went so far as to have them all meet with her lawyer and testify in court.

The poor kids were caught in the middle, a place kids should NEVER be. I know that they were torn. If they showed any interest in spending time with SO, the ex would make life miserable for them. Sadly, this type of abuse isn''t easily shown because most people with BPD are very convincing.

The judge for their final hearing declined to order visitation for SO. We knew without court-ordered visitation, the kids would be lost to SO and sure enough, that''s what has happened. It has also extended to SO''s parents -- his ex refuses to allow the kids to have contact with their grandparents.

Sad as it is to say, there are financial considerations when you''re in a situation like this. Over 4 years, SO gave his ex about $300K in cash, and she got the house with $200K in equity. His legal bills were about $70K and he was forced to withdraw quite a bit of his 401K. He pretty much has nothing to his name anymore. We thought it was all over and we could get on with our lives, but we found out this week that his ex is filing an appeal of the divorce decree because she wants more money. It''s likely that the appeal will not be successful, but we''re looking at the potential for another year of legal bills. If the appeal IS successful, we''re in for at least another year of legal bills after that. Because of the difficulty with appeals, we know that SO is going to need another $50K at least.

I used to think that if one person was obviously using the kids like this, well, surely the courts would see it and work to change it, but it''s just not true. It''s frustrating and painful to find out that not everyone is really interested in the best interests of the kids. We can only hope that at some point, his kids will see what their mom has done and come around.

If I saw the situation from outside, I might think that SO was the scum of the earth because he ''abandoned'' his kids. Since I lived through it with him, I know he didn''t. I know that he would do anything for them. He''s an awesome father to our little boy and a terrific influence on my kids who adore him. From talking to his family, I know that he was a really good and involved father with his kids until his ex decided that he wasn''t necessary.

I don''t know if the OP''s guy dealt with the same thing with his ex, but thought I''d bring our situation up as an example of how someone can lose their kids through little fault of their own.

My uncle is going through something similar right now, so I do understand the idea that a father can lose his kids without "abandoning" them. My uncle loves his twin boys more than life itself and he is fighting so hard with everything he has to stay in their lives despite the fact that his crazy and manipulative ex-wife has even gone so far as to tell the 5 year old boys that my uncle isn''t their real father (which he absolutely is) and has told these poor 5 year old boys that if they go see my uncle the police will come get them and take them to jail. My uncle has run out of money to pay the lawyers, but he keeps sacrificing in all other areas of his life to the point where he has hardly anything anymore - but he won''t give up on his boys because he loves them too much. So I do know that a father can lose his kids without choosing to and without "abandoning" them.

However, in the case of this thread, it sounds like TooPatient''s boyfriend simply decided he didn''t want to be a part of his kids'' lives anymore. It was too expensive and he didn''t want to give up other luxuries to fight for the kids so he gave up. She said, "B does NOT want a relationship with her EVER." To me, that means it''s not that he can''t see his daughter - it''s that he simply doesn''t want to. Even if the situation were to change and it would be easy for him to see his daughter (or both daughters) he would choose not to. That''s why the situations are so different.