Protests To Trump's Anthem Slurs Grow To Nationwide Rebuke

[AGBF]

Yup, putting the flag up to support FREE SPEECH. The flag is a symbol. The flag does not breathe. The right has co-opted my flag to be something it isn't. I don't like it one bit. My husband and I feel the flag now symbolizes the right and hate. I used to love to wave the flag when I was kid. I was proud of my dad and grandfather.

I understand how you feel. I do not feel exactly the same. I may have felt similarly during the Vietnam War, although I, personally, never burned a flag. It is just that, as you said, the flag is a symbol. The flag did not do anything wrong. The flag has been used by the best of people and the worst of people. Some people (as I believe Molly Malone once posted) do not believe in flags at all. After 9/11 I felt great reverence for the American flag and would pick up any small flag I saw that had fallen down anywhere in someone's yard. because it wasn't the cloth that mattered, but it represented. And at that time it represented the sacrifice of American heroes on the face of terrorist cowardice and attacks on civilians.

I may not have thought everything through and my positions may not be consistent, I'm just sharing off the cuff.

Deb

 

[House Cat]

LD
Then you should go walk around on the southside of Chicago after dark maybe you can become one of the statistics. Seriously, The liberal left here kept on talking PC., but none of you would have the guts to walk around the block on the dangerous side of Chicago with or w/o your jewelry.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...0th-homicide-tribune-data-20170917-story.html

This is super presumptuous, narrow minded, and insulting.

Oh wait... it's a typical comment from DF...never mind!

 

[t-c]

My post is an observation and opinion to someone who quoted to me directly. Everyone has the right to speak their minds and not everyone sees things the same. That should be ok should it not? The complaining is about Trump and is constant - meh whatever. I don't think anyone should be ashamed of things they have no control over. I am certainly incredibly sad, even angry, by the behavior of people in our past and wish desperately that things had been different. But I do not have shame for it because that would indicate that I had some hand in it or could have changed the outcome personally.

a·shamed
[əˈSHāmd]
ADJECTIVE

1. embarrassed or guilty because of one's actions, characteristics, or associations

Shame isn't reserved for things one has personally done. It can be an emotion felt because of something another person has done in your name -- as your representative or associate (notice "associations" in the definition you provided). This is the reason many people are ashamed/embarrassed by Trump's actions -- because he is the primary representative of the United States and by extension every person who consider themselves Americans. And that is also how he is seen by people outside the US; this gets reinforced to me every time I go abroad and get asked what's going on in the US/America (hoping I have some inside information that would give a rational explanation of what Trump did/is doing?).

Trump, as president, has bullied and mocked people -- actions that you would be ashamed/embarrassed (see what I did there) if your child did the same. And that would be a natural thing to feel because your child also represents how you raised him/her and the values you instilled in him/her. You wouldn't just feel bad, as if you were removed and merely an observer, if your child (and not you) bullied or mocked someone.

 

[Tekate]

The true meaning of the flag has been abused, used and mocked. This is why I cannot feel for my flag anymore. I remember what it stood for in my mind, but it was co-opted by morons, idiots and orange haired losers.

I understand how you feel. I do not feel exactly the same. I may have felt similarly during the Vietnam War, although I, personally, never burned a flag. It is just that, as you said, the flag is a symbol. The flag did not do anything wrong. The flag has been used by the best of people and the worst of people. Some people (as I believe Molly Malone once posted) do not believe in flags at all. After 9/11 I felt great reverence for the American flag and would pick up any small flag I saw that had fallen down anywhere in someone's yard. because it wasn't the cloth that mattered, but it represented. And at that time it represented the sacrifice of American heroes on the face of terrorist cowardice and attacks on civilians.

I may not have thought everything through and my positions may not be consistent, I'm just sharing off the cuff.

Deb

 

[House Cat]

The true meaning of the flag has been abused, used and mocked. This is why I cannot feel for my flag anymore. I remember what it stood for in my mind, but it was co-opted by morons, idiots and orange haired losers.

You killed me!! Oh I'm dying. There is ass on the flag!!

Isn't there a formal law against that?

 

[lovedogs]

LD
Then you should go walk around on the southside of Chicago after dark maybe you can become one of the statistics. Seriously, The liberal left here kept on talking PC., but none of you would have the guts to walk around the block on the dangerous side of Chicago with or w/o your jewelry.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...0th-homicide-tribune-data-20170917-story.html

Are you freaking serious with this comment? It's mind blowingly offensive, and very ignorant. I know you like to stir the pot, and that's fine bc it seems as though people here know and respect you despite the snark, but enough is enough.

 

[House Cat]

I think we might be getting guilt and shame confused with one another?

https://lifehacker.com/what-you-need-to-know-about-shame-and-guilt-1653163759

Could this be what is causing the discord in this discussion?

 

[monarch64]

LD
Then you should go walk around on the southside of Chicago after dark maybe you can become one of the statistics. Seriously, The liberal left here kept on talking PC., but none of you would have the guts to walk around the block on the dangerous side of Chicago with or w/o your jewelry.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...0th-homicide-tribune-data-20170917-story.html

LOL
Please keep perpetuating this shit. I've gotten off route driving through all parts of Chicago several times and NOT ONCE was I scared or did I lock my doors or freak out when some dude tried to wash my windshield. Jeez. You sound like my first husband, who was from there and was 6'5" but the biggest scaredy cat about black people ive ever met. I told him once that I'd gotten off on the wrong exit and he flipped his lid, saying I could've been raped and murdered immediately...I was like, uh, I don't think I even saw anyone. Smh.

I will walk around wherever I damn well please, thank you very much. You and your ilk can stop trying to act like everyone's out to get you, for crying out loud.

Maybe it's an age thing. My mother showed her true racist colors a few weeks ago, as we left a restaurant here in my town, at 6 while it was plenty light out. She saw a black man (QUELLE HORREUR) daring to walk across the parking lot to his car and stage whispered to me "get in the car, get in the car now!" I was so taken aback, I couldn't even react. I felt so disappointed in her. My dad has had Fox News blaring for years now and it has obviously taken its mental toll on them both. Brainwashed as all get out.

 

[AGBF]

Maybe it's an age thing.

Why don't we rethink that, Monnie. And while we are at it, please do not continue to say that I remind you of your mother.

Hugs,
Deb

 

[monarch64]

Why don't we rethink that, Monnie. And while we are at it, please do not continue to say that I remind you of your mother.

Hugs,
Deb

Maybe it is a generational thing? I don't know how else to put it, Deb. I'm sorry if I'm being offensive. I just have experienced so much racism coming from baby boomers in my life that I can only draw that conclusion. It sucks.

My mother has so many good qualities and she has tried to live her life as a helpful and good citizen. But I'm afraid that she's become isolated to the point that she doesn't understand what the world is really like now outside of what she sees on the news. It was awful to see her visibly afraid of someone walking around in daylight and not even in close proximity nor coming towards her. Just awful. Thanks a bunch, Fox News.

 

[AGBF]

Maybe it is a generational thing?

It isn't a generational thing. It is your prejudice. I am not saying that there has been no improvement over time and that young people today do not have a better outlook toward some things (for instance gay rights) than do baby boomers (in general). But baby boomers have actually been brought along to more progressive thinking even in areas like gay rights. And some of us are far more progressive than your generation ever was. We led the way on fighting racism and sexism. It was our friends, not yours, who were the pioneers.

 

[monarch64]

I shouldn't have brought age into it and now I'm very sorry I did and invoked your anger. Bowing out now.

 

[AGBF]

I shouldn't have brought age into it and now I'm very sorry I did and invoked your anger. Bowing out now.

Why would you be afraid to talk to me when you "invoked my anger"? I hope I am not irrational every time I disagree with someone! I enjoy talking to you!

Deb

 

[Tekate]

You killed me!! Oh I'm dying. There is ass on the flag!!

Isn't there a formal law against that?

Ya think I'm the one to ask? surely not! y'all need to ask some conservative.

 

[Dee*Jay]

Certainly gives "running it up the flag pole" a whole new meaning.

 

[Matata]

Certainly gives "running it up the flag pole" a whole new meaning.

Half-mast too

 

[House Cat]

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/t...e-amid-nfl-anthem-controversy/article/2637296

I can't take it anymore.

 

[Rhea]

I do think it's partly an age thing. I'm not saying everyone by any stretch. I heard it was around the age of 47 that people start to vote more conservatively in Britain, but YouGov says 34. Once again, it's not everyone. And no one is arguing that the older generation fought for gay rights, women's rights and against racism while I was still in nappies. But society continues to get more progressive and the older generations tend to vote more conservatively so there must be something in it.

This is some information for British, not American, voting and age.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/04/25/demographics-dividing-britain/
"Age: The new dividing line in British politics
In electoral terms, age is the new class. The starkest way to show this is to note that Labour is 19% ahead when it comes to 18-24 year-olds and the Conservatives are ahead by 49% among the over 65s. Our analysis suggest that the current tipping point – which is to say the age where voters are more likely to favour the Conservatives over Labour – is 34.

In fact, for every 10 years older a voter is, their chance of voting Tory increases by around 8% and the chance of them voting Labour decreases by 6%. This age divide could create further problems for Labour on 8 June. Age is also a big driver of turnout, with older people being far more likely to vote than young people. It’s currently too early to tell the exact impact this could have on the final result."

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/06/13/how-britain-voted-2017-general-election/
"Age
In electoral terms, age seems to be the new dividing line in British politics. The starkest way to show this is to note that, amongst first time voters (those aged 18 and 19), Labour was forty seven percentage points ahead. Amongst those aged over 70, the Conservatives had a lead of fifty percentage points."

I'm still trolling through the ONS and Electoral Commission websites which do publish some data regarding voting trends. I don't know the American equivalents.


Edited to correct punctuation.

 

[ksinger]

It isn't a generational thing. It is your prejudice. I am not saying that there has been no improvement over time and that young people today do not have a better outlook toward some things (for instance gay rights) than do baby boomers (in general). But baby boomers have actually been brought along to more progressive thinking even in areas like gay rights. And some of us are far more progressive than your generation ever was. We led the way on fighting racism and sexism. It was our friends, not yours, who were the pioneers.

Some of the generational generalizations are legitimate. But generalizing is always a bit tricky. I know I am so not typical of the general truths about Okies - I'm not religious, under-educated (by my dad's family's standards maybe, but by the educational level of most Okies? I'm pretty much in the top 'o the heap.), or conservative. And as I get older I seem to become less of all those things. Not entirely sure how I escaped it all. But that doesn't change the statistics of how most Oklahomans actually are. So I get the generalizations, I really do. My assumptions about people I meet, are that we don't agree on those issues. I'm usually correct, and that holds even for the under 30s. Around here. But make no mistake, there is a subculture here. Even in this state, there is not total conformity, either of generational characteristics, or general political stances.

The danger for the millennials making only the worst generalizations about their parents into something to tar an entire generation with, is that it doesn't allow for variation and it completely ignores some of the good things they have been given. It truly IS a prejudice. And the real kicker (they will find) is that they will find their generational limit one day too. They too will fall short of their promise, acquiesce to some terrible things, and their kids will be pointing the finger at them, en masse.

 

[AGBF]

My parents were more left wing in their eighties and nineties than most millennials are now. My brother, who is retired, is extremely active politically. Right now he is running for the local school board in his town because he was pressured into it by other Democrats who felt they needed him. It is a town that is very racially diverse and the citizens have to fight for everything the schools need. He also still coaches the high school robotics team although his daughters graduated many years ago and participates in greeting students in the morning, a program instituted to help boys and young men who live in single-parent families headed by women. My family and our friends have a wide network here in Connecticut of people who are like us, who vote Democrat, and who never stopped working against racism and for a more equitable distribution of income. I understand that Connecticut and Massachusetts are not like the rest of the United States. I lived in Virginia for several years. But my state always goes blue. And my family is far to the left of most of the state. I don't know if I could like in Oklahoma. My only problem living here is that I worry about being so close to where the bombs will fall when Trump starts World War III. (I am close to both New York City and Washington, DC.) I'd rather be with my best friend and her dogs in Maine. She and her husband are very left wing, too, but also pro-gun. He has many, many guns. He is ex-military and has even taught my friend how to shoot.

AGBF

 

[ksinger]

My parents were more left wing in their eighties and nneties than most millennials are now. My brother, who is retired, is extremely active politically. Right now he is running for the local school board in his town because he was pressured into it by other Democrats who felt they needed him. It is a town that is very racially diverse and the citizens have to fight for everything the schools need. He also still coaches the high school robotics team although his daughters graduated many years ago and participates in greeting students in the morning, a program instituted to help boys and young men who live in single-parent families headed by women. My family and our friends have a wide network here in Connecticut of people who are like us, who vote Democrat, and who never stopped working against racism and for more a more equitable distribution of income. I understand that Connecticut and Massachusetts are not like the rest of the United States. I lived in Virginia for several years. But my state always goes blue. And my family is far to the left of most of the state. I don't know if i could like in Oklahoma. My only problem living here is that I worry about being so close to where the bombs will fall when Trump starts World War III. I am close to both New York City and Washington, DC. I'd rather be with my best friend and her dogs in Maine. She and her husband are very left wing, too, but also pro-gun. He has many, many guns. he is ex-military and has even taught my gentle friend how to shoot.

AGBF

Well, it ain't no destination spot, that's for sure. It is a bit lonely here. If you're not churched, and read too much, people tend to look askance at you. On the plus side, I can "pass" at a gun show.

If it was not a case of TMI (for me anyway) I would brag here about some of my relatives in your general neck 'o the woods. I have some relatives who are seriously high-powered lawyers, doing seriously good works - the kind that periodically makes the news. You'd love it, I'm sure. (I'll put myself on a limb here and say, think Innocence Project). I'm very proud of them, proud to be family.

 

[House Cat]

Hmm..how does one pass at a gun show @ksinger ? I imagine this task requires wearing a Ted Nugent t-shirt at the very least.

 

[ksinger]

Hmm..how does one pass at a gun show @ksinger ? I imagine this task requires wearing a Ted Nugent t-shirt at the very least.

LOL! Well, it isn't exactly difficult or rocket science. I'm an obviously straight white female next to a white guy who can still talk gun minutiae until normal humans have died of toxic boredom. (I'm glad he's no longer "into" that stuff anymore, for many reasons). And there are lots more women at the shows than back in the day. Back in the day, I was usually one of maybe 2 women under 30? Felt like a slab of meat at a dog show. Now I'm old, married, and fortunately, that means I do not have to wear a Ted Nugent t-shirt. If I was really trying, I would go for a look I saw on another woman I saw relatively recently. Sans the stroller with a kid of course. She had on military fatigue-esque pants (olive drab of course) black military style lace up boots, a black tank top, and had 2 ARs strapped on her back. Yeah....

For the record, I've been to 3 shows in the last 25 years, and those were in the last 6 or so. Mainly to sell off some of husband's stuff. Unfortunately, the kind of stuff he has/had, is no longer in much demand at regular shows. They are mostly filled with paranoid black-plastic stuff, very little collector stuff. We had to range pretty far afield to bigger shows, to finally sell some of his older pieces.

 

[AGBF]

Interesting you said Innocence Project. A childhood friend, who was not a lawyer, passed away, far too young, several years ago. She came from a family of lawyers. None of them worked on The Innocence project, but her non-lawyer husband did. I will talk to you about it via e-mail if we can hook up. It is funny we never bothered to exchange e-mails over all these years. But I don't do well e-mailing people. I don't keep up my end of of conversations, no matter how much I like the other person. My life is too harrowing for me to check e-mail. Mainly I collected the e-mails of people I sent cakes to and then I lost them!

Deb

 

[ksinger]

Interesting you said Innocence Project. A childhood friend, who was not a lawyer, passed away, far too young, several years ago. She came from a family of lawyers. None of them worked on The Innocence project, but her non-lawyer husband did. I will talk to you about it via e-mail if we can hook up. It is funny we never bothered to exchange e-mails over all these years. But I don't do well e-mailing people. I don't keep up my end of of conversations, no matter how much I like the other person. My life is too harrowing for me to check e-mail. Mainly I collected the e-mails of people I sent cakes to and then I lost them!

Deb

I'm game. We should do well together, because I'm the same way with email. Check it sporadically, respond infrequently. I'm actually much better with chat features, like the one on FB, and Google, although I'm not sure what the chat feature is called on Google now. Anyhoo, if you have a method of hunting me down (so to speak) let me know and I'll do my part too if need be.

 

[AGBF]

I'm game. We should do well together, because I'm the same way with email. Check it sporadically, respond infrequently. I'm actually much better with chat features, like the one on FB, and Google, although I'm not sure what the chat feature is called on Google now. Anyhoo, if you have a method of hunting me down (so to speak) let me know and I'll do my part too if need be.

Hi, again, ksinger.

missy said that if you contact her here (her loupetroop address):

https://loupetroop.com/listings/other/for-elliot-its-missy

she will put us in contact with one another. She is one of the people who has my e-mail address and whose e-mail address I have managed not to lose! (Of course I also bother diamondseeker and canuk-gal while looking for someone who might have your e-mail address, but I am a high maintenance Pricescope friend!)

Thanks again, missy!

Deb

 

[Rhea]

The danger for the millennials making only the worst generalizations about their parents into something to tar an entire generation with, is that it doesn't allow for variation and it completely ignores some of the good things they have been given. It truly IS a prejudice. And the real kicker (they will find) is that they will find their generational limit one day too. They too will fall short of their promise, acquiesce to some terrible things, and their kids will be pointing the finger at them, en masse.

Agreed. DH has watched, often with horror, as his previously liberal parents have become Daily Mail readers over the last 15 years. I can't relate with my parents, they've always been conservative and that's fine (though my father is oddly big on gay rights so no generalizations made here!). I remind DH regularly that it's not just his parents, we too will miss the mark set by the next generation just as we perceive previous ones have done. But millennials, like older generations, aren't all the same and can't be all tarred with the same brush; It truly IS a prejudice. We were all handed great things by the generations that came before us. Hopefully we can both accept those great gifts and continue to make changes that the next generation will enjoy even when it misses their expected mark. Though I fully expect to laugh at DH one day while saying I told you so as he drones on about kids these days!

 

[AGBF]

À Propos of ksinger's quotation about Zen and cherished ideas, I recognize that sometimes I cherish my ideas, perhaps to the detriment of my openmindedness. The "conservative" ideas that I cherish are never politically conservative ones, however; they are socially conservative ideas. For instance, I like cursive writing. I like following the rules of grammar I was taught in school, not letting the language "evolve" into something new and different and (in my opinion) incomprehensible as the proponents of the linguistics point of view say we should accept.* I believe that good grammar and a good vocabulary and good writing skills will still serve a person well.

My political beliefs have not become noticeably more conservative over time. It is true that I was once more strident in how I voiced my opinions, but my underlying beliefs have not changed very much.

I understand that some people become more politically conservative as they age. Some, however, do not. There are many women of my generation who attend women's marches against Trump. One of my closest friends here in Connecticut, who was a secretary in Brooklyn while I was a campus radical, took a bus into New York City to attend a march against Trump when he was first inaugurated. (Remember those pink "pussy" hats?)

It is not inevitable that a person will become a political conservative when s/he ages! Look at Bernie Sanders! Some of us may just be the same old campus radicals we once were but with some of our old quirks, like not splitting infinitives or dangling prepositions. You can't change everything about us old folks.

Deb

*I do recognize that all language evolves. It just does not have to evolve at at the speed of light.

 

[Dancing Fire]

CK chose to opt out of his contract so being unemployed has nothing to do with his protesting. He quit his job thinking that he can get bigger contract with another team. He took a gamble and he lost and now he is blaming NFL owners for not hiring him...

 

[Dancing Fire]

Impossible for him to win this case....

http://money.cnn.com/2017/10/17/news/colin-kaepernick-collusion/index.html

 

[telephone89]

NFL will not penalize players who kneel
https://www.aol.com/article/news/20...ers-to-kneel-during-national-anthem/23247313/

The NFL won’t stop its players from kneeling during the national anthem, Commissioner Roger Goodell said Tuesday following the league’s autumn meeting.

Instead, he said, the league wants to help them in their political activism — in the face of President Trump’s sharp criticism of the quiet protests during “The Star-Spangled Banner” at numerous games this season.

“We spent today talking about the issues that our players have been trying to bring attention to. About issues in our communities to make our communities better,”